UKC

I am going to wales next weekend with a couple of mates who have done a bit of hiking but want to try a bit of scrambling.

As a precaution I will take a rope and a few basic bits of kit but not a whole rack.
Rope.
Set of nuts
Few screw gates
Few slings

It occurred to me going throuhg my bits and pieces, rather than take a stack of quick-draws could I just take a few 5/6mm prussic loops with carabiners on to save weight.

Baring in mind, firstly, that they won't get "fallen on" as such on easy scrambles and are really only there to give the novice scrambler a little more mental confidence.
And secondly I may not need to use them at all as most likely, if one of them does feel very nervous and wants to be belayed up a short section, I would probably not place much on the pitch, maybe 1 or two placements and then the obvious belay at the top.

So in essence, do you think a prussic loop would be ok to use with a couple of carrabiners as a lightweight quickdraw if required?

In reply to Andy Turner:

Quickdraw slings don't weigh much! You'd save a lot more weight by taking a short rope (30m x 9mm, say) and only alternate sizes of nuts.

In reply to Andy Turner:
A good weight saving option for scrambling is to get some medium nuts on longish 5.5mm dyneema cord.

Combined with a couple of mid-size hexes (DMM TNuts 1&2, Rockcentrics 5,6,7) you can then forget about quick draws completely and just take a few 60cm x 8mm slings.

Although as mentioned the biggest weight saving will probably come from choosing the minimum suitable length and thickness of rope to carry.

In reply to Andy Turner:

A lot of people will disagree, but I would take harnesses as well because they are safer, less faff (if someone suddenly feels the need for a rope, you can just clip them in rather than having to tie a loop around them) and more comfortable.

To counteract the weight of said harnesses I would reduce from a full rope to 25m of half rope (I use Beal Ice Line) maybe only take half the nuts and two sling draws instead of any QDs.

Chances are you will only use the 120cm slings and screwgates, so could ditch the nuts and draws altogether. Just remember to take a reasonable number as you can use more than you think especially with three of you.

In reply to Andy Turner:

I don't reckon its possible to protect a scramble properly. Ropes and the like are largely physcological mainly because you are always going to hit something in a fall unless you are willing to move at snails pace.

For that just a short rope running over and around rock features is as good as anything.

Otherwise treat it as a rock climb.

I am taking a 40m 9mm half rope and yes a handfull of slings with screwgates.

I totally agree that protecting a scramble is often a bit pointless but it does definitely give the novice a sense of confidence.

Thinking about taking them across Crib goch perhaps which is a grade 1 scramble and having done it last weekend it definitely doesn't need a rope.

Having said that, there is one place on the scramble up to the ridge where i think a beginner might feel a bit exposed and then again the 1st pinnacle after the main ridge is spectacular but can feel very exposed,. especially if the rock is wet, so for that reason I will take some kit, and carrying it can only make me fitter lol.

I like the idea of hexes on long slings to do away with nuts and quickdraws, nice!

In reply to Andy Turner:

What ever you do, don't read this months issue of Trail magazine - there's an article on what gear to take for scarmbling.

They recommend more kit than I take on a mountain VS!

Slings are your friends for scrambling. As long as you can get a sling around a big flake or boulder you've got a quick belay. If you are moving together a selection of nuts and maybe a cam or two should suffice. 30-40m rope is long enough.

In reply to GrahamD:




Indeed. It's often the case you'll be doing all of the above inthe case of a novice. Moving together takes a lot of confidence in the ability of the second to not fall as they are likely to pull you with them. Pitching it is slow but safer and can be more fun.

I was thinking about moving together, done lots with a climbnig partner in the Alps. but, like you say pitching scrambles is great fun and is a great way for beginners to learn the basics of how trad climbing works..... what a nut or a cam is...... the proper way to use a snapgate...... how to belay from below and from above etc etc and on a safe easy scramble its a much more fun way to learn this stuff than teaching indoors.

on my original question though, would a prussic loop break if you tried to use it as a quickdraw? sort of irrelevant question as the comversation has moved on, but what do people think?

In reply to Andy Turner:

The amount of kit you've got is a full rack for many (older?) trad climbers.

All I'd take for an easy climb and certainly a scramble is no more than a rope, a couple of slings and a couple of screwgates. If I felt the need for a bit more gear I'd take a couple of big nuts.

In reply to Andy Turner:

Depends how thick the the accessory cord is and what it is rated for... 6mm and above should be fine though; remember that accessory cord is rated for a single length and you will be using it in a loop, although you lose a bit for the knot. Still going to be heavier than a sling though!

e.g. Mammut 6mm is 7.5kN breaking strain so probably at least 10kN in a loop.

In reply to Andy Turner:

No, it would be fine unless you make your prussiks out of very thin cord or tie very bad knots! Breaking strain on 6mm cord is about 8kN, double that for a loop, but maybe halve it again for the knot (very conservative). It's not as strong as dyneema but not much less than the 11kN your nuts are rated at. Fine if you're not going to take lead falls onto it or shock load it.

In reply to Andy Turner:

perfectly fine as a runner. just get on with it!

In reply to Andy Turner:

Well, there we go, question answered and simultaneously rendered moot in one swoop lol.

Cheers, was just a thought.

In reply to Andy Turner:

Just take 1 screw gate (or one per person if you must).

30m of skinny rope (7 or 8mm).

Slack handful of wiregates and slings.

Few wires (half a set), few cams.

As others have said; pro is largely superficial, even on rock climbs up to Severe(ish), the pro will only stop you decking out, but you're probably going to bounce of the ledges!

In reply to Andy Turner:

Just make sure all your belays are bomber. give them a good (safe) kick.

In reply to Andy Turner:

And... you'll be surprised how much you can hold with a classic/body belay - I use them for winter climbing frequently.

In reply to Merlin:

Presumably the advantage is that you only bounce off a _few_ ledges if you are on a short rope (and your partner catches you on a spike/you have some gear placed)?

I did some short-roping the other day for the first time in the Alps (in the middle of the rope) and we spent the first (easier) part just running the rope over spikes/cracks etc, then placing some gear/clipping into the occasional peg/bolt later on. It seemed to me the advantage of falling off the arete would be sliding down about 5-10m of cliff (only ~10m of rope out between each of us) instead of sliding down 600m of cliff...

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Exactly as I said, 'it will only stop you decking out', but you're still facing the ledges.

The OP is referring to scrambling in Wales, not the Alps, so facing a 600m drop on the Cneifon Arete is unlikely, although I've not been there for a few weeks, the geography might have changed