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National Theatre Wales have painted an extract from a poem by Welsh Poet Gillian Clarke for a show that the Theatre is putting on called 'The Gathering/Yr Helfa'. The poem has been painted onto a rockface in Cwm Llan through which the Watkin Path goes on it's way up Snowdon...
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69172
In reply to UKC News:
Seems like a lot of fuss over nothing, they sourced the appropriate permissions and have promised to clear up their mess after them, which is more than many climbers will ever do.
As for Reeves' opening remarks - "My guess is... these guys probably... I suspect" All supposition and knee jerk reactions, no facts.
Seems like a lot of fuss over nothing, they sourced the appropriate permissions and have promised to clear up their mess after them, which is more than many climbers will ever do.
As for Reeves' opening remarks - "My guess is... these guys probably... I suspect" All supposition and knee jerk reactions, no facts.
In reply to UKC News:
"), and the action of the Welsh National Theatre has upset many outdoor users "
1 man and his dog don't count as many outdoor users. I quite like it. What is that excuse excessive chalk users use? "It will wash off when it rains". This still is actually going to be cleaned off instead of relying on the weather.
"), and the action of the Welsh National Theatre has upset many outdoor users "
1 man and his dog don't count as many outdoor users. I quite like it. What is that excuse excessive chalk users use? "It will wash off when it rains". This still is actually going to be cleaned off instead of relying on the weather.
In reply to UKC News:
I'm not against installations such as this but it's not something I'd like to see in the countryside. I'd like them to be as natural as is possible (given most of the parks have been affected by human industry anyway)
A light projection on the cromlech or dinas mot would've been quite spectacular, use some of the theatre lights possibly? You get an installation and we can climb at night!
I'm not against installations such as this but it's not something I'd like to see in the countryside. I'd like them to be as natural as is possible (given most of the parks have been affected by human industry anyway)
A light projection on the cromlech or dinas mot would've been quite spectacular, use some of the theatre lights possibly? You get an installation and we can climb at night!
In reply to JoshOvki:
How long will it be before the golden arches, or coca cola are up there, or anywhere else for that matter?
Clay paint or otherwise it is in the wrong place. Advertising is almost everywhere you look these days, the countryside should remain free of it.
My 2p worth.
How long will it be before the golden arches, or coca cola are up there, or anywhere else for that matter?
Clay paint or otherwise it is in the wrong place. Advertising is almost everywhere you look these days, the countryside should remain free of it.
My 2p worth.
In reply to planetmarshall:
Agreed. It's only there for a few days by the sounds of it. Most people would have been blissfully unaware of its short existence had it not appeared online.
The crag in question is Craig-ddu, on the flank of Lliwedd.
Agreed. It's only there for a few days by the sounds of it. Most people would have been blissfully unaware of its short existence had it not appeared online.
The crag in question is Craig-ddu, on the flank of Lliwedd.
In reply to UKC News:
I dont see a problem with it, in fact I quite like the idea of art in the natural environment. Its temporary and they sought all the correct permissions. Ive seen worse 'vandalism' on many of the popular mountains of Britain including the mess made by 3 peakers on Ben Nevis, Scafell and Snowdon.
I dont see a problem with it, in fact I quite like the idea of art in the natural environment. Its temporary and they sought all the correct permissions. Ive seen worse 'vandalism' on many of the popular mountains of Britain including the mess made by 3 peakers on Ben Nevis, Scafell and Snowdon.
In reply to UKC News:
I'm very ambivalent about this. It's the best implementation of a bad idea probably sums up my feelings. They've obviously gone about it the right way and sought to minimise the environmental impact, but even so, it feels like someone's artistic ego got the better of them
I'm very ambivalent about this. It's the best implementation of a bad idea probably sums up my feelings. They've obviously gone about it the right way and sought to minimise the environmental impact, but even so, it feels like someone's artistic ego got the better of them
In reply to StewartBradshaw:
I imagine quite some time as the National Trust wouldn't give them permission?
Better take all logos off outdoor kit then!
I imagine quite some time as the National Trust wouldn't give them permission?
Better take all logos off outdoor kit then!
In reply to UKC News:
Was it painted on the lead? I'll be livid if some t*sser has done it from the security of a top rope
Was it painted on the lead? I'll be livid if some t*sser has done it from the security of a top rope
In reply to Greenbanks:
Right. And what have they written on grit?
> Was it painted on the lead? I'll be livid if some t*sser has done it from the security of a top rope
Right. And what have they written on grit?
In reply to UKC News:
Look you plonkers in the National Theatre, it is everyone's wilderness and not yours and not the Snowdonia National Park's. It's precious and shouldn't be spoilt by trashy tat like this.
Chris
Look you plonkers in the National Theatre, it is everyone's wilderness and not yours and not the Snowdonia National Park's. It's precious and shouldn't be spoilt by trashy tat like this.
Chris
In reply to Chris_Mellor:
Wow..
It's a wilderness.. so cwm llan has been quarried, mined, used for military training, political speeches, forestry, farming and hydro-power to name a few.. and its now being used for a very short term art exhibit…
It's temporary, environmentally friendly, writing on a crag.. the impact of that compared to repeated climbing or especially winter routes when not in nick is absolutely incomparable…
This is just nothing.. it won't be there soon enough and doubt there will be any trace…
You really do come across as a grumpy old man.. its everyone's land as you say, so as long as the get the necessary permission so what?
They've gone about it the right way.. didn't someone do something similar in the quarries without permission? Plus haven't other climbers graffiti'd without permission?
Wow..
It's a wilderness.. so cwm llan has been quarried, mined, used for military training, political speeches, forestry, farming and hydro-power to name a few.. and its now being used for a very short term art exhibit…
It's temporary, environmentally friendly, writing on a crag.. the impact of that compared to repeated climbing or especially winter routes when not in nick is absolutely incomparable…
This is just nothing.. it won't be there soon enough and doubt there will be any trace…
You really do come across as a grumpy old man.. its everyone's land as you say, so as long as the get the necessary permission so what?
They've gone about it the right way.. didn't someone do something similar in the quarries without permission? Plus haven't other climbers graffiti'd without permission?
In reply to IainRUK:
Well said Iain.
Land Art be it temporary or longterm is a creative and fascinating genre. While it may not be everyones cup of tea no one complains when Goldsworthy or Richard long do a piece.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/learningzone/clips/andy-goldsworthy-art-in-a-natural-e...
http://www.richardlong.org/Sculptures/sculptures11.html
Well said Iain.
Land Art be it temporary or longterm is a creative and fascinating genre. While it may not be everyones cup of tea no one complains when Goldsworthy or Richard long do a piece.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/learningzone/clips/andy-goldsworthy-art-in-a-natural-e...
http://www.richardlong.org/Sculptures/sculptures11.html
In reply to UKC News:
It's tatty, looks awful and even if only temporary sets a bad example to others who might be tempted to paint more permanent graffiti.
It's tatty, looks awful and even if only temporary sets a bad example to others who might be tempted to paint more permanent graffiti.
In reply to Trangia:
Does it really though? Do you honestly think that people can't set aside the difference between a NT-approved piece of temporary art, and permanent graffiti?
I'm with Iain on this one.
Does it really though? Do you honestly think that people can't set aside the difference between a NT-approved piece of temporary art, and permanent graffiti?
I'm with Iain on this one.
In reply to UKC News:
Stick a wind turbine beside it and garnish with a bit of litter and it will be perfect.
Stick a wind turbine beside it and garnish with a bit of litter and it will be perfect.
In reply to IainRUK:
Well said Iain, people should get their facts right before spouting their opinions on social media, I know every human being has a right to an opinion but, not the right way to go about it really.
Well said Iain, people should get their facts right before spouting their opinions on social media, I know every human being has a right to an opinion but, not the right way to go about it really.
In reply to mr mills:
Indeed Mr Mills and Iain.
Our uplands and indeed all our habitats which so many of us take for granted have been worked by humans for millennia. They require this interaction and shepherding and grazing is not only important for this habitat management, but part of our heritage and culture. To highlight this through the arts brings this to a wider audience, and is to be applauded in my view.
Indeed Mr Mills and Iain.
Our uplands and indeed all our habitats which so many of us take for granted have been worked by humans for millennia. They require this interaction and shepherding and grazing is not only important for this habitat management, but part of our heritage and culture. To highlight this through the arts brings this to a wider audience, and is to be applauded in my view.
In reply to Greenbanks:
Well for sure it wasn't red point. I like the idea of projecting text up on left and rght wall instead. Afterall it does look like an open book
Well for sure it wasn't red point. I like the idea of projecting text up on left and rght wall instead. Afterall it does look like an open book
In reply to IainRUK:
Best response on the thread, I agree with every word.
Some of the other comments on this thread (and Mark Reeves' original words) come across as incredibly "holier than thou".
> so cwm llan has been quarried, mined, used for military training, political speeches, forestry, farming and hydro-power to name a few.. and its now being used for a very short term art exhibit…
Best response on the thread, I agree with every word.
Some of the other comments on this thread (and Mark Reeves' original words) come across as incredibly "holier than thou".
In reply to UKC News:
Personally I don't have a problem with it.We as climbers are ones to talk anyway plastering chalk over cliff faces everywhere.It'll wash off when the rains come in the meantime enjoy a bit of culture on your walk up Snowdon.
Personally I don't have a problem with it.We as climbers are ones to talk anyway plastering chalk over cliff faces everywhere.It'll wash off when the rains come in the meantime enjoy a bit of culture on your walk up Snowdon.
Post edited at 14:11
In reply to UKC News:
Using cliffs or boulders as tablets is an eye sore, and it's a really bad idea to legitimize, promote, and encourage graffiti..
Using cliffs or boulders as tablets is an eye sore, and it's a really bad idea to legitimize, promote, and encourage graffiti..
Post edited at 01:42
In reply to Alun:
It's not even "holier than thou", more "the way I exploit the great outdoors is better than the way you exploit the great outdoors"
> Some of the other comments on this thread (and Mark Reeves' original words) come across as incredibly "holier than thou".
It's not even "holier than thou", more "the way I exploit the great outdoors is better than the way you exploit the great outdoors"
In reply to UKC News:
I can't believe how much of a stir this has caused... Nobody moans about groups of climbers
making crags look untidy, knocking in bolts, pulling plants and various other bits off and slapping chalk all over everything - and if they did, it wouldn't make any difference.
The tone of this Mark Reeves guy is unbelievable, seems like he's desperately looking for content and traffic for his website by making this sound a lot more sensational than it really is. If he'd done a bit of research before his uninformed high horse ran then he could have contacted relevant parties and discovered that it's a clay based paint that will be carefully be washed off with careful cooperation of park authorities. I feel his arguments are further let down by childish slurs about grants, when he has no idea how it is funded or who by.
In an art sense, just because it doesn't personally appeal to you, doesn't mean it isn't art, and who are you to say that it doesn't belong here... The hills are here for everyone, not just the holy property of people with a map or a rope. You will find that landscapes have inspired art and poetry far, far longer than they have been climbed on. Art and literature go immeasurably further to preserve the precious history and heritage of the area than walking or climbing ever could.
If you took a moment to actually read the poem, maybe you would like it. I think it is beautiful; as welsh as the rock it is written on and very atmospheric. I'm not saying that I would like to see it as a permanent feature, but that was clearly never the intention.
Good luck to them I say and I really hope that the narrow mindedness of some doesn't deter others from using the mountains and crags as an artistic medium - as long as it is done respectfully and responsibly and with all of the correct permissions and cooperation.
I can't believe how much of a stir this has caused... Nobody moans about groups of climbers
making crags look untidy, knocking in bolts, pulling plants and various other bits off and slapping chalk all over everything - and if they did, it wouldn't make any difference.
The tone of this Mark Reeves guy is unbelievable, seems like he's desperately looking for content and traffic for his website by making this sound a lot more sensational than it really is. If he'd done a bit of research before his uninformed high horse ran then he could have contacted relevant parties and discovered that it's a clay based paint that will be carefully be washed off with careful cooperation of park authorities. I feel his arguments are further let down by childish slurs about grants, when he has no idea how it is funded or who by.
In an art sense, just because it doesn't personally appeal to you, doesn't mean it isn't art, and who are you to say that it doesn't belong here... The hills are here for everyone, not just the holy property of people with a map or a rope. You will find that landscapes have inspired art and poetry far, far longer than they have been climbed on. Art and literature go immeasurably further to preserve the precious history and heritage of the area than walking or climbing ever could.
If you took a moment to actually read the poem, maybe you would like it. I think it is beautiful; as welsh as the rock it is written on and very atmospheric. I'm not saying that I would like to see it as a permanent feature, but that was clearly never the intention.
Good luck to them I say and I really hope that the narrow mindedness of some doesn't deter others from using the mountains and crags as an artistic medium - as long as it is done respectfully and responsibly and with all of the correct permissions and cooperation.
In reply to Blake:
Absolutely spot on. The poem is just part of an art project taking place this weekend, celebrating the land and it's people. Sounds very interesting and different. What supprises me most is that no one in Ukc has been bothered to add factual content to the report.
Absolutely spot on. The poem is just part of an art project taking place this weekend, celebrating the land and it's people. Sounds very interesting and different. What supprises me most is that no one in Ukc has been bothered to add factual content to the report.
In reply to Blake:
Yes they do, climbers themselves, when the things you mention are done inappropriately. Climbers are very good at self policing like this.
Sure, but have you ever heard of "leave nothing but footprints, take nothing but photos"? We should all aspire to that surely
You will find that landscapes have inspired art and poetry far, far longer than they have been climbed on.
Sure, but Wordsworth and Heaton-Cooper didn't let anyone know where they've been quite so obviously
Art and literature go immeasurably further to preserve the precious history and heritage of the area than walking or climbing ever could.
Not sure about that one either. The climbing and walking history and heritage of the Lakes and Snowdonia is pretty impressive and contributes massively to life today in those areas
I probably would, but I'd still rather see it on the side of a building in Llanberis or Dolgellau. This at best condones and and worst encourages others to do the same without the appropriate care and permissions
> Nobody moans about groups of climbers
> making crags look untidy
Yes they do, climbers themselves, when the things you mention are done inappropriately. Climbers are very good at self policing like this.
>
> The hills are here for everyone, not just the holy property of people with a map or a rope.
Sure, but have you ever heard of "leave nothing but footprints, take nothing but photos"? We should all aspire to that surely
You will find that landscapes have inspired art and poetry far, far longer than they have been climbed on.
Sure, but Wordsworth and Heaton-Cooper didn't let anyone know where they've been quite so obviously
Art and literature go immeasurably further to preserve the precious history and heritage of the area than walking or climbing ever could.
Not sure about that one either. The climbing and walking history and heritage of the Lakes and Snowdonia is pretty impressive and contributes massively to life today in those areas
> If you took a moment to actually read the poem, maybe you would like it.
I probably would, but I'd still rather see it on the side of a building in Llanberis or Dolgellau. This at best condones and and worst encourages others to do the same without the appropriate care and permissions
In reply to Sam Beaton:
Putting it on the side of a building in Llanberis would rather defeat the object.
This is not just a random poem on a rock, it is part of the backdrop for a theatre performance taking place right there out on the mountainside, and one celebrating and highlighting the sheep farming heritage that has shaped the lives and landscape of the hills for far far longer than people have been walking the hills for pleasure.
Putting it on the side of a building in Llanberis would rather defeat the object.
This is not just a random poem on a rock, it is part of the backdrop for a theatre performance taking place right there out on the mountainside, and one celebrating and highlighting the sheep farming heritage that has shaped the lives and landscape of the hills for far far longer than people have been walking the hills for pleasure.
In reply to Neil Rankin:
I think it rather depends on how well its done. I like Armitage's Stanza Stones very much http://www.michaelmelvin.co.uk/stanzastones/assets/images/poem_pano.jpg
I think it rather depends on how well its done. I like Armitage's Stanza Stones very much http://www.michaelmelvin.co.uk/stanzastones/assets/images/poem_pano.jpg
In reply to Sam Beaton:
You conveniently deleted the bit about pulling plants out. Climbers are often praised for their efforts in "cleaning" routes and "increasing traffic".
> Yes they do, climbers themselves, when the things you mention are done inappropriately. Climbers are very good at self policing like this.
...> Sure, but have you ever heard of "leave nothing but footprints, take nothing but photos"? We should all aspire to that surely
You conveniently deleted the bit about pulling plants out. Climbers are often praised for their efforts in "cleaning" routes and "increasing traffic".
In reply to UKC News:
..and after 'The Gathering', what comes next for the sheep ?
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=945751472106887
It has none of the 'Farrow & Ball' treatment that L.A. Wilson uses in her Welsh take on hillfarming. 'Genius Loci' to a tee (IMHO).
..and after 'The Gathering', what comes next for the sheep ?
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=945751472106887
It has none of the 'Farrow & Ball' treatment that L.A. Wilson uses in her Welsh take on hillfarming. 'Genius Loci' to a tee (IMHO).
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:
Fair point. I'm pleased to see it will be washed off straight afterwards though. Will your justification for this artwork have been obvious to those walking past it for the past few days? Are you confident it won't lead/have led to unwanted graffiti?
Fair point. I'm pleased to see it will be washed off straight afterwards though. Will your justification for this artwork have been obvious to those walking past it for the past few days? Are you confident it won't lead/have led to unwanted graffiti?
In reply to Blue Straggler:
Only if they're pulling grass out of limestone quarries. Nobody gets praised for pulling rare alpine plants out of Cloggy. Partly thanks to climbers being pretty good at keeping their own house in order.
> Climbers are often praised for their efforts in "cleaning" routes and "increasing traffic".
Only if they're pulling grass out of limestone quarries. Nobody gets praised for pulling rare alpine plants out of Cloggy. Partly thanks to climbers being pretty good at keeping their own house in order.
In reply to Sam Beaton:
Again you are conveniently missing an "inbetween" bit here and using the extremes of "quarries" and "rare Alpine plants" to try to make your point. That's not going to wash. There is natural vegetation on unquarried rock that gets "cleaned".
I am not complaining about it, but let's have some consistency.
>
> Only if they're pulling grass out of limestone quarries. Nobody gets praised for pulling rare alpine plants out of Cloggy. Partly thanks to climbers being pretty good at keeping their own house in order.
Again you are conveniently missing an "inbetween" bit here and using the extremes of "quarries" and "rare Alpine plants" to try to make your point. That's not going to wash. There is natural vegetation on unquarried rock that gets "cleaned".
I am not complaining about it, but let's have some consistency.
In reply to Sam Beaton:
I think it will have been obvious to most people that having a red carpet all down the big incline isn't a normal state of affairs for the area either! Not to mention all the production staff mingling with farmers, sheep and (paying) audience members.
It's far enough up the mountain that it won't attract your average spraycan wielding teenager, and I doubt the graffiti will be any worse than big permanent scratched marks reading, for example, "Way off" or "G.A." that climbers have left behind elsewhere in Snowdonia, not to mention crampon tracks.
I think it will have been obvious to most people that having a red carpet all down the big incline isn't a normal state of affairs for the area either! Not to mention all the production staff mingling with farmers, sheep and (paying) audience members.
It's far enough up the mountain that it won't attract your average spraycan wielding teenager, and I doubt the graffiti will be any worse than big permanent scratched marks reading, for example, "Way off" or "G.A." that climbers have left behind elsewhere in Snowdonia, not to mention crampon tracks.
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:
Not to mention the enormous railway ferrying people up there, the fact that the summit has been defiled by a bloody great cafe and the ever growing stairway of paths...
Not to mention the enormous railway ferrying people up there, the fact that the summit has been defiled by a bloody great cafe and the ever growing stairway of paths...
In reply to Blake:
I don't like it but see there is little impact on the whole with the art on lliwed.
However whilst climbing around the Todmorden area a few years ago there appeared engraved poems in the gritstone at two venues I used regularly. They were Cows Mouth quarry and Pule hill. The poems are not on routes but for me spoiled the wild feel of the places. I hope this art in Snowdon does not inspire more permanent pieces elsewhere.
I don't like it but see there is little impact on the whole with the art on lliwed.
However whilst climbing around the Todmorden area a few years ago there appeared engraved poems in the gritstone at two venues I used regularly. They were Cows Mouth quarry and Pule hill. The poems are not on routes but for me spoiled the wild feel of the places. I hope this art in Snowdon does not inspire more permanent pieces elsewhere.
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:
Thanks for the extra info. If the full picture had been presented in the original news item I probably wouldn't have commented. Now I know more, I agree that this won't cause any longer term problems.
I'm not pleased that G.A. has been scratched into the start of Grooved Arete either, FWIW, and I'm sure most climbers would frown upon something similar being done in this day and age.
Roger and out.
Thanks for the extra info. If the full picture had been presented in the original news item I probably wouldn't have commented. Now I know more, I agree that this won't cause any longer term problems.
I'm not pleased that G.A. has been scratched into the start of Grooved Arete either, FWIW, and I'm sure most climbers would frown upon something similar being done in this day and age.
Roger and out.
In reply to UKC News:
Personally I think this is a wonderful expression art even though it isn't my bag (poetry) Why shouldn't other groups express themselves on the rock in the way climbers express themselves with their routes? It isn't permanent and I'll bet more chalk can be seen after just one weekend on Stanage.
In other arty news there is some more wonderful art on the Welsh rock that the wife and I found yesterday while doing Snakes and ladders in 'the slate'
http://s786.photobucket.com/user/blanchie14c/library/Dinorwic
Pic 1 - a superb picture for the lucky finders and tribute to the men who worked and died in this industry
Pic 2 - Not sure what this is, abstract possibly? It was taken at high zoom from high on the other side of the quarry
Pic 3 - again at high mag this black faced sheep is painted somewhere that looks impossible to even get to!
There is at least 1 other art work that you'll find if doing snakes and ladders of a lone workman, I'll leave that one to you to find...
In other news, pic 4 shows that the bridge of death has indeed gone. The route around is obvious but follow the well worn path on the right of the tower and make your way to the pipe which can be followed to the top and across the top and round. 15 min diversion at most.
Personally I think this is a wonderful expression art even though it isn't my bag (poetry) Why shouldn't other groups express themselves on the rock in the way climbers express themselves with their routes? It isn't permanent and I'll bet more chalk can be seen after just one weekend on Stanage.
In other arty news there is some more wonderful art on the Welsh rock that the wife and I found yesterday while doing Snakes and ladders in 'the slate'
http://s786.photobucket.com/user/blanchie14c/library/Dinorwic
Pic 1 - a superb picture for the lucky finders and tribute to the men who worked and died in this industry
Pic 2 - Not sure what this is, abstract possibly? It was taken at high zoom from high on the other side of the quarry
Pic 3 - again at high mag this black faced sheep is painted somewhere that looks impossible to even get to!
There is at least 1 other art work that you'll find if doing snakes and ladders of a lone workman, I'll leave that one to you to find...
In other news, pic 4 shows that the bridge of death has indeed gone. The route around is obvious but follow the well worn path on the right of the tower and make your way to the pipe which can be followed to the top and across the top and round. 15 min diversion at most.
In reply to Sam Beaton:
I think the polished scar of boot scuffs next to the G.A are as offensive as the inscribing personally... But having said that I still love climbing on the east face of Tryfan.. All I'm trying to say is that it's all about perspective.
I think the polished scar of boot scuffs next to the G.A are as offensive as the inscribing personally... But having said that I still love climbing on the east face of Tryfan.. All I'm trying to say is that it's all about perspective.
In reply to UKC News:
Well, I love Gillian Clarke's work. I can't imagine anyone having a deeper empathy with the Welsh culture and landscape than her. Does anyone have a copy of the text inscribed on the rock?
Well, I love Gillian Clarke's work. I can't imagine anyone having a deeper empathy with the Welsh culture and landscape than her. Does anyone have a copy of the text inscribed on the rock?
In reply to UKC News:
Glad it would appear that a good sensible debate ensued in the end. Think a few lessons need to be learnt by UKC mind. In future a bit of research wouldn't go a miss before you put an article on the front page! Also a knee jerk unresearched spout by one person does not constitute fact. I also think it has to be said that poor articles are hugely counterproductive if we wish as a community to have our voices heard. We need to take a far more balanced and less militant stance if governing bodies etc are going to listen to us seriously and use us as a valuable partner and consultee.
Glad it would appear that a good sensible debate ensued in the end. Think a few lessons need to be learnt by UKC mind. In future a bit of research wouldn't go a miss before you put an article on the front page! Also a knee jerk unresearched spout by one person does not constitute fact. I also think it has to be said that poor articles are hugely counterproductive if we wish as a community to have our voices heard. We need to take a far more balanced and less militant stance if governing bodies etc are going to listen to us seriously and use us as a valuable partner and consultee.
In reply to RachubAndy:
Totally agree Andy. By the way, I went onto Mark's website and asked is he had an open forum there so we could have an educated chat about his 'rant'. As of yet there has been no reply and as far as I can see he hasn't engaged in any of the debate his article has provoked. I wonder if he has had second thoughts about his ill-informed comments.
Totally agree Andy. By the way, I went onto Mark's website and asked is he had an open forum there so we could have an educated chat about his 'rant'. As of yet there has been no reply and as far as I can see he hasn't engaged in any of the debate his article has provoked. I wonder if he has had second thoughts about his ill-informed comments.
Post edited at 20:28
In reply to abseil:
mmm look at what they did to cowsmouth, in Lancs Grit and feel grateful it were clay paint and not a chisel
mmm look at what they did to cowsmouth, in Lancs Grit and feel grateful it were clay paint and not a chisel
In reply to UKC News:
On Tuesday 16th Sept I walked past this graffiti.One person had been up on the slab wire brushing the letters.Three others and a Haflinger type vehicle were at the bottom.The result of the cleaning was that the rock became much lighter in colour than the rest of the slab and you could still make out the original letters.It will take years for the scars to weather in.Why could they not have used chalk which would have washed off with the next rain?
On Tuesday 16th Sept I walked past this graffiti.One person had been up on the slab wire brushing the letters.Three others and a Haflinger type vehicle were at the bottom.The result of the cleaning was that the rock became much lighter in colour than the rest of the slab and you could still make out the original letters.It will take years for the scars to weather in.Why could they not have used chalk which would have washed off with the next rain?
In reply to JMO:
Was the person using the wirebrush part of the official cleanup or some misguided activist making a point?
Was the person using the wirebrush part of the official cleanup or some misguided activist making a point?
In reply to Offwidth:
As I said he was with 3 others and had gone up in a Haflinger type vehicle,so I presume they were official cleaners.No labels on the vehicle and they were not in any sort of uniform,so whether they were from the theatre or the National Park,I know not.
As I said he was with 3 others and had gone up in a Haflinger type vehicle,so I presume they were official cleaners.No labels on the vehicle and they were not in any sort of uniform,so whether they were from the theatre or the National Park,I know not.
In reply to JMO:
Re inadequate cleaning of the rock face: So the arty-farty culture vultures messed up and spoilt what was very precious to all of us Watkin Path walkers. Take only pictures and leave only footprints. Now will all the people who thought this was a good idea please consider that what we have left in Snowdonia is delicate, very, very precious and shouldn't be messed with by careless and reckless idiots?.
Re inadequate cleaning of the rock face: So the arty-farty culture vultures messed up and spoilt what was very precious to all of us Watkin Path walkers. Take only pictures and leave only footprints. Now will all the people who thought this was a good idea please consider that what we have left in Snowdonia is delicate, very, very precious and shouldn't be messed with by careless and reckless idiots?.
In reply to UKC News:
Having read through all the commentary I am not quite as staunchly anti what has been done as I was, but I still oppose things like this. I prefer what we have left of a natural environment to remain as such, and I do not think precedents of things like this being done in the past are an excuse for doing it now or in the future. I doubt permission would have been granted to do such and "installation" on the side of a grade 1 listed building so why should it be granted in a more natural environment?
Having read through all the commentary I am not quite as staunchly anti what has been done as I was, but I still oppose things like this. I prefer what we have left of a natural environment to remain as such, and I do not think precedents of things like this being done in the past are an excuse for doing it now or in the future. I doubt permission would have been granted to do such and "installation" on the side of a grade 1 listed building so why should it be granted in a more natural environment?
In reply to Chris_Mellor:
How does 'Watkin Path' square with
Isn't the Watkin Path a manufactured track. Don't you follow signposts to get to it? Doesn't the track cross an old mine tramway? Don't you pass a quarry, and the quarrymen's barracks?
Like it or not, this is a manufactured environment which has been developed over centuries. Those who love the area seem to manage to love the tramway and the quarry and barracks and the great big path all the way up the mountain, along with the other paths up the mountain. Try not to get quite so precious about another addition to the environment which almost certainly won't last as long as the tramway and the quarry and the barracks and the paths.
> Re inadequate cleaning of the rock face: So the arty-farty culture vultures messed up and spoilt what was very precious to all of us Watkin Path walkers.
How does 'Watkin Path' square with
> leave only footprints.
Isn't the Watkin Path a manufactured track. Don't you follow signposts to get to it? Doesn't the track cross an old mine tramway? Don't you pass a quarry, and the quarrymen's barracks?
Like it or not, this is a manufactured environment which has been developed over centuries. Those who love the area seem to manage to love the tramway and the quarry and barracks and the great big path all the way up the mountain, along with the other paths up the mountain. Try not to get quite so precious about another addition to the environment which almost certainly won't last as long as the tramway and the quarry and the barracks and the paths.
In reply to tony:
I think that there's a big difference between tolerating relics of the past and adding new man-made intrusions. The manufactured path is only acceptable because there would be a far messier path without it, given the number of visitors.
> Those who love the area seem to manage to love the tramway and the quarry and barracks and the great big path all the way up the mountain, ...
I think that there's a big difference between tolerating relics of the past and adding new man-made intrusions. The manufactured path is only acceptable because there would be a far messier path without it, given the number of visitors.
In reply to Coel Hellier:
Or perhaps not so many people would go there if the path wasn't there? But I do know what you mean. My problem is with the tolerance of human intrusion. Who gets to decide what's okay? If walkers are happy to use a manufactured path, I wonder if they should look at their own environmental impact before being quite so critical of a temporary incursion which will be gone long before the path is gone. Don't get quite so sniffy and don't pretend that the Watkin Track isn't an intrusion on the landscape.
> I think that there's a big difference between tolerating relics of the past and adding new man-made intrusions. The manufactured path is only acceptable because there would be a far messier path without it, given the number of visitors.
Or perhaps not so many people would go there if the path wasn't there? But I do know what you mean. My problem is with the tolerance of human intrusion. Who gets to decide what's okay? If walkers are happy to use a manufactured path, I wonder if they should look at their own environmental impact before being quite so critical of a temporary incursion which will be gone long before the path is gone. Don't get quite so sniffy and don't pretend that the Watkin Track isn't an intrusion on the landscape.
In reply to JMO:
I'm sure CCW (or whatever they're called this week) will ensure that this is properly removed as it is a SSSI
I'm sure CCW (or whatever they're called this week) will ensure that this is properly removed as it is a SSSI
In reply to Tom Valentine:
On the whole I think we're pretty good at deciding where is and isn't appropriate for bolts, yes. The first people to complain about inappropriate bolting are usually other climbers.
On the whole I think we're pretty good at deciding where is and isn't appropriate for bolts, yes. The first people to complain about inappropriate bolting are usually other climbers.
Photos of the 'cleaning' ...
http://lifeinthevertical.co.uk/blogs/blog/2014/09/it-is-all-my-fault/
http://lifeinthevertical.co.uk/blogs/blog/2014/09/it-is-all-my-fault/
In reply to UKC News:
An absolute disgrace. Those going on about the impact of paths etc would do well to remember that two wrongs don't make a right.
An absolute disgrace. Those going on about the impact of paths etc would do well to remember that two wrongs don't make a right.
1
In reply to haydn:
That's a real shame, read this in today's i newspaper as well. I hope prolonged rain has some positive effect in the coming weeks.
That's a real shame, read this in today's i newspaper as well. I hope prolonged rain has some positive effect in the coming weeks.
In reply to Coel Hellier:
It looked a bit shit before and now it's going to look a lot shit for quite a long time - even if it eventually turns into a negative image of the original. Surely this is good evidence that these sort of vanity projects are not appropriate in 'wild' places.
It looked a bit shit before and now it's going to look a lot shit for quite a long time - even if it eventually turns into a negative image of the original. Surely this is good evidence that these sort of vanity projects are not appropriate in 'wild' places.
In reply to pasbury:
Quite so.
Thanks to Mark Reeves for having the guts to go against the grain. Just goes to show that reassurances given by 'the authorities' count for very little.
> It looked a bit shit before and now it's going to look a lot shit for quite a long time - even if it eventually turns into a negative image of the original. Surely this is good evidence that these sort of vanity projects are not appropriate in 'wild' places.
Quite so.
Thanks to Mark Reeves for having the guts to go against the grain. Just goes to show that reassurances given by 'the authorities' count for very little.
In reply to llechwedd:
The people who okay'd this theatre nonsense should hang their heads in shame. Stewards of the landscape on our behalf have let us down.
The people who okay'd this theatre nonsense should hang their heads in shame. Stewards of the landscape on our behalf have let us down.
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
Their only option may be is to sand blast the whole crag.
Their only option may be is to sand blast the whole crag.
Post edited at 21:11
In reply to UKC News:
It has just been on the BBC News - looks a right mess. I'm guessing the 'paint' has killed the lichen it covered,
Chris
It has just been on the BBC News - looks a right mess. I'm guessing the 'paint' has killed the lichen it covered,
Chris
In reply to UKC News:
I think they took the wrong advice and possible had the wrong mindset - this was considered in terms of "art" that was going to be ephemeral and washed away. They should have been thinking in terms of "graffiti" from the outset - not in terms of cultural merit, but in terms of management - what people do to prevent it adhering on public buildings, what lessons have been learned in it's removal on other sites, the perils of over agressive cleaning. The fact that paint tends to lift the immediate surface it's been applied to and leaves an after image is well known - this should have been expected.
I know it was done with the best intentions, but they weren't resurfacing the road to hell, either.
I think they took the wrong advice and possible had the wrong mindset - this was considered in terms of "art" that was going to be ephemeral and washed away. They should have been thinking in terms of "graffiti" from the outset - not in terms of cultural merit, but in terms of management - what people do to prevent it adhering on public buildings, what lessons have been learned in it's removal on other sites, the perils of over agressive cleaning. The fact that paint tends to lift the immediate surface it's been applied to and leaves an after image is well known - this should have been expected.
I know it was done with the best intentions, but they weren't resurfacing the road to hell, either.
In reply to pasbury:
Interesting that there are two National bodies culpable for this vandalism. Bureaucracy comes up against bureaucracy, each with its' own mission statement about caring for the environment. I wonder if they even bothered to think what was the likely effect of painting a rockface.
I don't imagine that the NT would have allowed a tenant farmer to 'transiently' advertise their B&B in this manner.
I presume the environmental impact assessment was of the sort 'well you can wash the paint brushes under the tap, so it'll be OK. Anyhow, its made of natural clay pigments...'
Clay expands, it shrinks. A rockface exposed to the elements over millenia will have pores, fissures etc. Imagine what wet (clay based) paint applied to dry rock will do.
I suppose this result is itself a piece of environmental/performance art, the poem gradually forgotten as it fades. The whole mess a metaphor for the relationship of modern humankind to the natural environment- separate and impermeable, or so it would seem.
Interesting that there are two National bodies culpable for this vandalism. Bureaucracy comes up against bureaucracy, each with its' own mission statement about caring for the environment. I wonder if they even bothered to think what was the likely effect of painting a rockface.
I don't imagine that the NT would have allowed a tenant farmer to 'transiently' advertise their B&B in this manner.
I presume the environmental impact assessment was of the sort 'well you can wash the paint brushes under the tap, so it'll be OK. Anyhow, its made of natural clay pigments...'
Clay expands, it shrinks. A rockface exposed to the elements over millenia will have pores, fissures etc. Imagine what wet (clay based) paint applied to dry rock will do.
I suppose this result is itself a piece of environmental/performance art, the poem gradually forgotten as it fades. The whole mess a metaphor for the relationship of modern humankind to the natural environment- separate and impermeable, or so it would seem.
In reply to UKC News:
Just been on to the NT Hafod y Llan/Craflwn website to see if they're acknowledging the damage done.
No
Their homegrown eyesore's not mentioned under the 'Things to see and do' in Cwm Llan section either.
But they do care (give us you money!):
"Saving special places"
"These crucial donations not only support the vital work of our rangers' but have also allowed us to acquire some truly special places such as Hafod y Llan ....ensuring they will be protected forever."
Could try harder NT!
Just been on to the NT Hafod y Llan/Craflwn website to see if they're acknowledging the damage done.
No
Their homegrown eyesore's not mentioned under the 'Things to see and do' in Cwm Llan section either.
But they do care (give us you money!):
"Saving special places"
"These crucial donations not only support the vital work of our rangers' but have also allowed us to acquire some truly special places such as Hafod y Llan ....ensuring they will be protected forever."
Could try harder NT!
In reply to JJL:
That's a good rumour to start- it'll soon be removed
On the subject of graffiti in the Welsh countryside, rather than remove the decades old "Cofiwch Dryweryn" ('remember Tryweryn' - referring to a welsh community destroyed in the flooding of a cwm to supply water to Liverpool), which was painted on the side of a derelict cottage, thousands were spent restoring it.
Perhaps the NT will go down that route- in a 'heritage' colour of course.
> It's ok - it was approved by Banksy
That's a good rumour to start- it'll soon be removed
On the subject of graffiti in the Welsh countryside, rather than remove the decades old "Cofiwch Dryweryn" ('remember Tryweryn' - referring to a welsh community destroyed in the flooding of a cwm to supply water to Liverpool), which was painted on the side of a derelict cottage, thousands were spent restoring it.
Perhaps the NT will go down that route- in a 'heritage' colour of course.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I saw the piece on the news Tues 7/10 on BBC Wales.It included a brief interview with a NT warden/ranger/employee, named as Arwyn Owen,who stated that its "a small issue as far as I'm concerned".I was amazed at the complacency.What is the purpose of his employment?
I saw the piece on the news Tues 7/10 on BBC Wales.It included a brief interview with a NT warden/ranger/employee, named as Arwyn Owen,who stated that its "a small issue as far as I'm concerned".I was amazed at the complacency.What is the purpose of his employment?
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