UKC

Hi all

Planning a trip to northern canada, travelling overland coastally for about 400 miles.

Apparently there are loads of bears and they will be very hungry.

Will be 4 or 5 of us.

What do people carry in the way of guns/flares/tripwires etc?

Bearing in mind weight will be at an absolute premium, what would folk bring?

We arent very experienced with rifles but plan to learn, but we're not sure what is best.

We will try to avoid the fluffy lovelies but will probably be on the coast/on sea ice a lot so encounters seem likely.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

In your case I'd recommend carrying NO weapons at all! I think you're best bet is when you all turn in for the night throw any left over food around the camp to disperse said bears!

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

Note this is polar bears not brown or grizzlies.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

I would take all of the above if I wasn't too scared to go at all.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

Wear bells on your clothes and carry pepper spray.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Aye - its more whether we should take .308, .22 magnums or whatever - we're pretty ignorant about firearms.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:
Have you approached the RCMP for advice? I'm sure they would be helpful

The chances are that they will recommend a rifle(s) and if so I suggest you take yourselves off on a trainng course for the appropriate weapon(s). They could probably recommend a training couse in Canada.

My understanding of polar bears is that they pose a very real threat and you need to take precautions against them seriously to minimise the risks both to yourselves and them.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

This in the paper yesterday might be of interest:
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/sep/12/polar-bear-attack-andy-...

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

Remember to file the front sight off the rifle.

That way it wont hurt so much when the bear shoves it up your arse

In reply to Ramblin dave:

That works well for scientists who track polar bears. Makes the job of identifying individual bears much easier - especially when their pooh rings when you step in it, and it smells of pepper....

In reply to Calum McLellan:

Having worked in Svalbard, I wouldn't go into polar bear territory armed with anything less than a very loud snowscooter. Dogs and snowscooters work to chase them away for a while, but hungry bears don't care about flares or batton rounds. Getting into a situation where you are forced to shoot a protected species is not very PC either.

In reply to Calum Nicoll: a friend took a 275 and 20 rounds for skking across greenland, but you will likely see more bears than she did. Ask the rcmp for how much ammo to take

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

Is it ethically right to go to bear country just for a walk, knowing that you may have to kill a Polar Bear? I would love to go but would struggle in killing a bear just so I could walk there.
Ps not having a pop..

In reply to Calum Nicoll:
Just get everybody one of these
http://images.esellerpro.com/2466/I/128/23/lrgscalejunglewarrior2.jpg
Or better still
(Possibly nsfw )

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JX1shIarL._SY445_.jpg

That ll scare the feckers off. Research conducted at the university of Kirkby in Ashfield department of animal behaviour suggests that polar bears don't know the difference between real guns and replicas so why bother with the real thing ?

In reply to Skol:
+1
Plus one

In reply to Calum Nicoll:
I also wonder what the chances are of somebody with zero experience of firearms actually dropping a large angry animal that's running at them with the clear intent of killing and eating them ? My money's on the bear.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Ha! :O)

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

Tripwires with alarm sirens seem to work (at least that is what my zoologist colleagues that go on expeditions up north say). For protection they use shotguns with solid or at least large caliber shot. Handguns require much more experience.

CB

In reply to mike123:


Errr because if the noise doesn't scare it off, you then have a chance of shooting the dear fluffy thing to death? (Not the case with a replica)

Signed, Abseil, Bear expert (after seeing lots of movies)

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

Would you be the same Calum Nicoll that demonstrated somewhat questionable ethics by drytooling Millstone? Are there similarities in ehtical decisions of killing polar bears so you can have a walk?

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

Any small pistol will be enough to shoot one of your companions and give you chance to get away.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:
Take a picnic to keep them occupied. Speak to the Ranger when you arrive, you don't want to make any Bo Bo's

n reply to felt:

Yeah I know a couple of guys ivolved in that tragedy.

In reply to mike123:


Does that mean two (2), or are you implying that some on here might struggle reading numbers and the plus (+) sign?

In reply to felt: try typing +1 .

In reply to abseil:



Shoot ? To death ? Why would you want to do that ? What s it done to you ? Any way mr and mrs potato head are going to dressed as mr and ms Rambo , see my first reply . so no real need for real guns . The y lll just have to practice looking tough before they go .
Ps,. The university of Kirkby in Ashfield doesn't really exist so any research conducted there is to be taken with a very large pinch of salt.

In reply to abseil:
Just off out the bike with the image of Calum dressed as Rambo with a plastic sa80 being chased by an angry polar bear with the caption "f:££ing ukc b"@@&!ds".

In reply to mike123:

Well I imagine the bear will be wanting to eat him when he shoots it to death?

Or am I being silly and it is just a fluffy teddy that want to be petted?

In reply to mike123:

+1. There.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

If you are walking and weight is critical I'd leave the guns behind. You'd probably end up shooting each other anyway.

Bears generally don't like people. The only ones I've seen have been running away.

Who told you they'd be hungry anyway? It largely depends on whether they've just come out of hibernaation and/or what the conditions are like on the ice for the bears to catch their prey - seals.

I also wonder whether as non Canadians you'll actually be allowed to take firearms. You certainly cannot turn up in Canada, say your going to bear country and and go off armed.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

I'm pretty sure that you are 100% Walter but just in case you aren't:

http://www.pc.gc.ca/eng/pn-np/nu/auyuittuq/visit/visit6/ours-bear.aspx

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

If the polar bear can be trained to use an SRM 1216, I would get the bear one of those. Should take out anyone trying to use a rifle on it at close quarters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiZgSXfN-BA#t=0h3m8s

In reply to Removed User:

Mr Mitty! A big plus one on that.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:
You could try this? Not sure if it works with polar bears though.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CVS1UfCfxlU&autoplay=1

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

Polar bear protection standard we use are minimum calibre of win .308 preferably 30-06 sprg. Both readily available.

Slugged shotgun ammunition is ok. But short range only and requires a shotgun with a butt to be accurate.

Main defensive equipment is a signal pistol/ flaregun with report ammunition (brown). These are hard to get and expensive.

Tripwires, two main types, those that fire flares and those that fire blank 12guage ammunition. Both equally as unreliable.

Pm me for proper polar bear information.

In reply to felt: l
No. See , you typed +1. There. That's not what I said.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

As a wise bear once said, "You're not really here for the hunting, are you."

In reply to Removed User:
Yogi? He was smarter than the average bear.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

If there's an equivalent to WalMart, you should be able to pick up some C4 and make Claymores. That'll add some beef to your tripwire setup. Downside is it sometimes scares trolls out from underneath their bridges

In reply to Calum Nicoll:


In East Greeland this summer we hired a big shotgun with bg shot. It seemed to be standard there. We were told that a shot would probably scare them off. If a polar bear were aggressive towards me, the last thing on my mind would be how endangered the species is; how endangered I was would seem rather more immediate! We met no bears but ptarmigan was tasty

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

AK47 Callum, works for the chimp

youtube.com/watch?v=GhxqIITtTtU&

In reply to Skol:

It's the punchline to an old joke.

In reply to woolsack:
youtube.com/watch?v=l8oPVVGYQ40&

Trunk monkey rules!!

In reply to Robert Durran:


So you have a right to be there? You and Calum could be the last of the Great White Hunters

In reply to Skol:



Fair enough question. But if you ask it, you have to question the right of anyone at all to go to the arctic for mountaineering or any other recreational purpose (unless they choose to carry no protection against polar bear attack). The idea that you would take a gun but choose not to use it if attacked is ludicrous. Having a gun for protection is the norm.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes. I think go at your own risk with no gun. Leave the animals alone. If you weren't there, there would not be a problem. Go somewhere else and climb.
( a statement , not an attack on you Robert

In reply to Skol:

It would be interesting to know the number of polar bears shot in self defence by foreign visitors each year. I suspect it would be tiny compared with the number shot by the locals for protection or for legal hunting.

In reply to Robert Durran:


I would imagine it was a small amount. But the indigenous people are part of that Eco system? I'm sure if they were made aware of the polar bears decline, then they would respect a hunting ban if other food sources were available?
I think bears are more threatened by climate change, but to add to this for a self egotistical 'adventure' seems wrong to me.

In reply to mike123:

Aha. Tell me more!

In reply to Calum Nicoll: I would imagine that any polar bears shot by the locals are shot out of self protection, rather than hunting for food. Once you've shot it tho' it would be wasteful not to eat it.

Guns are mandatory for Svalbard, Greenland I think and my friends group were told by the policethey weren't going to be allowed to leave town without one. I suspect that in N Canada the issue will be the police complaining if you leave without a gun as they're going to need to clean up the mess and going without one is irresponsible. Your comment that the trip is egotistical is fair enough, but if you're going to go, then this is something you have to plan for.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:
Bear spray, bear bangers and best practise management for camping in an area with bears. Just done a mini expedition in northern Canada where we saw 27 bears over 5 days and had no issues and had no sign of bears in the camp. They will be more interested in the salmon in the river if you do the right thing.

In reply to mugglewump:


Polar bears are a very different proposition to Grizzlies.

In reply to wbo:


I may be wrong, but I though the Inuit had a small hunting quota. May depend on country.

In reply to Skol:


If a polar bear eats me, then I imagine that, as part of the food chain, I too would count as part of the ecosystem.

I'd go to Greenland again. I'd have a gun. It's very unlikely I'd have to kill a bear, but I would if the alternative was to be eaten. I can understand why some people would not want to put themselves in this position though.

In reply to wbo:

>> I suspect that in N Canada the issue will be the police complaining if you leave without a gun as they're going to need to clean up the mess and going without one is irresponsible.

No. You will simply not be allowed to carry one in Canada unless you are licensed. If you read my link further up and if you read the pamphlet in the link then it explains everything.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Not if you weren't there in the first place. By being there through selfishness, you are putting the bears at risk of being shot by yourself?

Good luck. I really hope the gun jams

In reply to minneconjou Sioux: well I stand corrected. I'm a bit surprised.

I'm a bit underwhelmed by the advice from the national parks in case of an attack - basically phone the police to come and collect what's left.

In reply to wbo:
Sounds fair enough
It's hardly like there's much left to be discovered up there. Gone are the days of the brave, white, posh North Pole explorer. Imagine coming back and telling your kids that big, brave daddy/mummy killed a polar bear.

In reply to Removed User:

Thanks for the help, really useful. And some amusing banter too.

Minneconjou Sioux:

Quality links, thanks alot for that. Was not aware of the ban on firearms in national parks but fortunately not going in one.

Looking at getting an FAC over here and then taking them across - doesnt look like it should be too difficult as they're just regular rifles (in the non-restricted catagory) not anything super exotic. So just a question of having the right safety precautions anddoing the paperwork and a small fee. http://canada.usembassy.gov/traveling_to_canada/bringing-weapons-into-canad...


If we train with the same guns that we use out there the thinking is we'll be much slicker and much more likely to be successful should the worst occur.

I do know several parties whos firearms training for northern expeditions consisted solely of renting a gun in svalbard and having 5 practise shots at a rock but we plan to be better prepared.

Will respond to the rest of the points in this thread in due course.

Thanks again all

In reply to Robert Durran:
Yes good point!

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

Don't worry Calum. Polar Bears are not known to eat potatoes.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:


That should be an interesting conversation!

"Why do I want a FAC for a large calibre rifle? Well I might need to shoot a polar bear when I go on holiday.."

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

You could always plan a holiday where you don't need to shoot the locals

In reply to Ramblin dave:


Like some kind of agressive morris dancer?

In reply to doz generale:

Old joke: http://www.boyscouttrail.com/content/joke/watch_for_bears-606.asp

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

I've been in Svalbard and North East Greenland where carrying a gun for polar bear protection is mandatory. In both cases we've had 30-06 rifles, one of them a WWII Mauser stamped with Nazi eagle and swastika motifs! They are unfortunately very heavy, essentially big-game hunting rifles, but anything effective against a polar bear will be. Apart from air rifles when I was a kid I'd not done any shooting but rifles are really quite easy to operate. Sitting down with it for a while and going through the loading and safety mechanism repeatedly so it will come naturally under pressure is a good idea, as is taking a couple of shots at a target. I understand that a starving polar bear will need a gun to stop it. Probably the best thing to take along is a dog.

In reply to Dave:


To feed to the bear?

In reply to nufkin:


Chihuahuas work well as appetisers to distract the bear whilst you are preparing to blow its head off.

In reply to Dave:


But ideally with a side salad too: don't forget to pack one.

In reply to Dave:

...or go with a friend who can't run as fast as you can. That should work.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:


As long as you never fall asleep while your partner is awake.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:


In Greenland we had a local with a rifle (he was out hunting seals while we were skiing) and a pack of dogs. We saw tracks, but thankfully no bears. I’d imagine shooting and killing one when it’s charging at you would be pretty hard. I wouldn’t be confident in my ability to pull it off.

On getting back to town it transpired a bear had got into the local school and had been shot.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

Never carried for bears, but have for other things and I briefly worked in the firearms trade as a yoof. It should be good reason for a UK FAC as long as you explain yourself clearly to the Police and have no history of violent crime or mental illness. It can be a painfully bureaucratic process though and I'd suggest seeking advice from someone who's done it on the nuances.

.30-06 or .375 is probably your best bet. I gather that .30-06 is widely available in Canada which is likely a consideration. You will have to fly with rifle and ammo seperate in your luggage and if they loose the ammunition for your wierd and wonderful rifle and you can't buy more locally then its just an expensive stick.

If you are going to buy a rifle I'd suggest getting some training or knowledgeable advise first, to avoid buying something unsuitable which is likely to be dangerous. WMS Firearms training are renown for doing this kind of thing and are viewed as the market leaders, and FarringtonDeer services would probably be able to provide the training you need if you get in touch with them.

Finally though, I would question if its really worth the expense? Unless you are going to be doing this regularly you are probably better off doing a course and hiring a rifle, you won't see much change from £2000 by the time your done.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

As Clarkey says, I think you would be better of hiring a rifle over there. Applying for an FAC for your purpose will not be that straightforward and will probably be expensive in the long run.

To be granted the FAC you will have to produce a lot of evidence of why you need to purchase the rifle over here (and can't simply rent/hire/borrow one in Canada), including evidence of bookings and likelihood of bears where you are going etc. The rifle will almost certainly be restricted to use abroad only- with possibly authority to zero in UK - they may want training in UK first, especially if zeroing is involved on open ground. All sorts of things that could take quite a long time to process, especially as the next busy licensing period starts at end of this year. Lastly if you are not using the rifle again what will you do with it, also you will need to provide "good reason" again to renew the licence in 5 years time, or possibly lose it.

Personally I would forget the idea of an FAC unless there is no viable alternative.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

Maybe it's not quite so relevant for polar bears, but bear spray is signifciantly more effective at deterring attacks of black and grizzly bears (about 95% +) than fire arms (about 60%). This is possibly due to people not being able to get accurate / enough rounds into the bear in the event that it does attack. A hunter was killed a couple of weeks ago over here by a grizzly mother with cubs. Though no one knows the exact circumstances, his rifle doesn't seem to have done him any good (some bear experts recommend hunters carry bear spray for this precise reason).

The only time I've travelled in polar bear country was in a national park so we were limited to bear spray. Anyway in your shoes I'd want a gun, but how about taking bear spray too? You might have to keep it warm though.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

Why can't humans, simply accept that they aren';t at the top of the food chain and may well be included in the dietary requirements of some big animal?