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Collective,
Genuinely interested in people's thoughts on this......from both sides of the fence....
If, as we have been told for many years, Scotland gets more £££'s per head out of the UK Exchequer, why are they so desperate to hold on to Scotland?
ANdy
Genuinely interested in people's thoughts on this......from both sides of the fence....
If, as we have been told for many years, Scotland gets more £££'s per head out of the UK Exchequer, why are they so desperate to hold on to Scotland?
ANdy
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
Andy,
There are many threads that argue your points already on UKC, could I suggest you have a read of them to find your answer?
Just a thought, Tony
Andy,
There are many threads that argue your points already on UKC, could I suggest you have a read of them to find your answer?
Just a thought, Tony
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
I mean - seriously, if they vote no, can we not then chuck them out???
I mean - seriously, if they vote no, can we not then chuck them out???
1
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
My personal opinion: It's not about money. I genuinely think the diversity of our island makes us "better together", as the now-tired soundbite goes. When I lived in Scotland, it felt like home just like England does - there's no big differences between the English and the Scottish. My grandparents moved to Scotland when they retired. My cousins were born there. I've been to Scotland at least once a year on family holidays since I was a kid, and now I choose to go there over anywhere else in the world because I love it.
Don't get me wrong, I fully believe it's right that the Scottish should be able to have this referendum (whilst deploring the way the canvasing has been conducted). But I think it would be genuinely sad for Scotland and the other countries in the UK to go separate ways after all these years.
My personal opinion: It's not about money. I genuinely think the diversity of our island makes us "better together", as the now-tired soundbite goes. When I lived in Scotland, it felt like home just like England does - there's no big differences between the English and the Scottish. My grandparents moved to Scotland when they retired. My cousins were born there. I've been to Scotland at least once a year on family holidays since I was a kid, and now I choose to go there over anywhere else in the world because I love it.
Don't get me wrong, I fully believe it's right that the Scottish should be able to have this referendum (whilst deploring the way the canvasing has been conducted). But I think it would be genuinely sad for Scotland and the other countries in the UK to go separate ways after all these years.
In reply to mike kann:
You are getting confused with the Isle of White.
> Surely that just makes it exotic?
You are getting confused with the Isle of White.
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
If you start by asking about "holding on", you won' get a sensible answer. No one (practically) regards Scotland as a possession, rather that it is a part of a country, Britain, that people feel attachment to. They don't want to see it broken up. Among other reasons.
If you start by asking about "holding on", you won' get a sensible answer. No one (practically) regards Scotland as a possession, rather that it is a part of a country, Britain, that people feel attachment to. They don't want to see it broken up. Among other reasons.
In reply to ByEek:
But surely the Isle of Wight is not part of the UK?!? I thought it was like Jersey. And the Isle of Man. And Bristol.
> You are getting confused with the Isle of White.
But surely the Isle of Wight is not part of the UK?!? I thought it was like Jersey. And the Isle of Man. And Bristol.
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
Keeping on the marriage/divorce metaphor which seems popular, you might ask the same question, why does your wife/husband want to hang onto you? There's no logical reason.
Keeping on the marriage/divorce metaphor which seems popular, you might ask the same question, why does your wife/husband want to hang onto you? There's no logical reason.
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
We're one relatively small island. Why try to split it apart (again) and create borders and barriers?
The European project was largely intended as a post WWII device to stop future wars, by breaking down barriers.
If Scotland splits from the rest of the UK, it's doing the reverse of that.
Do you think the best interests of both countries are served by being smaller and having (even) less influence in the world at large?
We're one relatively small island. Why try to split it apart (again) and create borders and barriers?
The European project was largely intended as a post WWII device to stop future wars, by breaking down barriers.
If Scotland splits from the rest of the UK, it's doing the reverse of that.
Do you think the best interests of both countries are served by being smaller and having (even) less influence in the world at large?
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
Because we can actually both lose.
The UK economy is dependent on financial services. These rely on stability and confidence. These would be hit by a break up. Even if Scotland does take money from the rest of the UK, this could well be dwarfed by money lost in the City. it was claimed that after the poll showing majority for independence, more money was wiped of Scottish shares than the annual revenue from North Sea oil. I don't know if this is true, but that is the size of numbers we are dealing with.
On the other side of things, a breakaway Scotland would probably need to reduce business taxes to prevent business leaving. This could result in tit for tat reductions leading to less public money on both sides of the border.
There is also the short term problem, of every national government department or business spending the next 2-20 years dealing with the problems of restructuring, rather than concentrating on what they actually do.
Because we can actually both lose.
The UK economy is dependent on financial services. These rely on stability and confidence. These would be hit by a break up. Even if Scotland does take money from the rest of the UK, this could well be dwarfed by money lost in the City. it was claimed that after the poll showing majority for independence, more money was wiped of Scottish shares than the annual revenue from North Sea oil. I don't know if this is true, but that is the size of numbers we are dealing with.
On the other side of things, a breakaway Scotland would probably need to reduce business taxes to prevent business leaving. This could result in tit for tat reductions leading to less public money on both sides of the border.
There is also the short term problem, of every national government department or business spending the next 2-20 years dealing with the problems of restructuring, rather than concentrating on what they actually do.
In reply to BnB:
Then they must not have noticed that Scottish MPs, or Scottish educated ones have played a considerable part in running Britain, far more than the relative populations would indicate... even the present one has a Scottish family name.
> I think (half) the Scots are aguing that they currently have none at all.
Then they must not have noticed that Scottish MPs, or Scottish educated ones have played a considerable part in running Britain, far more than the relative populations would indicate... even the present one has a Scottish family name.
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
Because for a lot of us the UK is our nation, and part of it splitting away feels like our home being broken up - the predominant feeling in the rest of the UK is one of sadness at the thought of Scotland leaving - not worry.
Because a nation built up from a number of others will surely be poorer - financially, socially and culturally, without one of its constituents, especially one like Scotland that has contributed so much.
Because some of us fear that our friends in Scotland may not benefit from independence to the extent predicted, and whilst that's there risk to take, iScotland doing badly will have negative impacts on rUK, beyond those caused by the sundering of our nations.
Because it will make me and mine sad.
Because for a lot of us the UK is our nation, and part of it splitting away feels like our home being broken up - the predominant feeling in the rest of the UK is one of sadness at the thought of Scotland leaving - not worry.
Because a nation built up from a number of others will surely be poorer - financially, socially and culturally, without one of its constituents, especially one like Scotland that has contributed so much.
Because some of us fear that our friends in Scotland may not benefit from independence to the extent predicted, and whilst that's there risk to take, iScotland doing badly will have negative impacts on rUK, beyond those caused by the sundering of our nations.
Because it will make me and mine sad.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I'm (mostly) in the no camp for the reasons most eloquently expressed in Dr S's post above. But isn't it remarkable how the the phalanx of Scots who ran the New Labour governments of 97-10 were seduced by London and arguably did as much as the current coalition to alienate their homeland?
> Then they must not have noticed that Scottish MPs, or Scottish educated ones have played a considerable part in running Britain, far more than the relative populations would indicate... even the present one has a Scottish family name.
I'm (mostly) in the no camp for the reasons most eloquently expressed in Dr S's post above. But isn't it remarkable how the the phalanx of Scots who ran the New Labour governments of 97-10 were seduced by London and arguably did as much as the current coalition to alienate their homeland?
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
Oil money and somewhere to park the nuclear submarines.
It's true that Scotland gets more public money for services, but oil revenues put far more money into the UK exchequer.
Check out the BBC pages "Scotland in Numbers" & "Where might Trident go" for more info.
Oil money and somewhere to park the nuclear submarines.
It's true that Scotland gets more public money for services, but oil revenues put far more money into the UK exchequer.
Check out the BBC pages "Scotland in Numbers" & "Where might Trident go" for more info.
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
Just for the sake of ruining an analogy to death...
Because when your brother says that he hates you and runs away - you worry about them, love them and want them back. You are related to them and grew up with them.
Of course it might be that they say "Don't be so clingy OD - I'm off to seek my fortune in the big wide world - and you just slow me down, and you steal most of my pocket money. I'm better on my own" And sometimes that might just happen.
But more often than not, they haven't really run away, they are just round at Nicola's house getting stoned and discussing socialist utopias.
Or - more frighteningly - they have gone down to Uncle Alec's who tells them "You are a big boy now - my friends want to meet you..."
And before you know it they have been introduced to Brian and Ann: "Do you want a bit more pocket money, wee boy... here's what you have to do..."
And before you know it they are selling themselves, one piece at a time, with dreams and hopes in tatters.
But we can always remember - when we were together, we were brilliant.
We had a great scrap with Adolf, when he was bullying the whole neighbourhood. We built some bloody good electrical toys together (well okay, they had some of the ideas, I just let them use my bedroom to build them).
And whatever happens, however much they piss you off (or vice versa) they will always be family, and together we can take on the world...
Just for the sake of ruining an analogy to death...
Because when your brother says that he hates you and runs away - you worry about them, love them and want them back. You are related to them and grew up with them.
Of course it might be that they say "Don't be so clingy OD - I'm off to seek my fortune in the big wide world - and you just slow me down, and you steal most of my pocket money. I'm better on my own" And sometimes that might just happen.
But more often than not, they haven't really run away, they are just round at Nicola's house getting stoned and discussing socialist utopias.
Or - more frighteningly - they have gone down to Uncle Alec's who tells them "You are a big boy now - my friends want to meet you..."
And before you know it they have been introduced to Brian and Ann: "Do you want a bit more pocket money, wee boy... here's what you have to do..."
And before you know it they are selling themselves, one piece at a time, with dreams and hopes in tatters.
But we can always remember - when we were together, we were brilliant.
We had a great scrap with Adolf, when he was bullying the whole neighbourhood. We built some bloody good electrical toys together (well okay, they had some of the ideas, I just let them use my bedroom to build them).
And whatever happens, however much they piss you off (or vice versa) they will always be family, and together we can take on the world...
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
Power and world ranking. We wouldn't have been able to blow the shit out of Iraq and Afghan if Texas and England were just lil ol countries. United Nations my arse!
Power and world ranking. We wouldn't have been able to blow the shit out of Iraq and Afghan if Texas and England were just lil ol countries. United Nations my arse!
In reply to Stevie989:
I said it was a crap analogy. I was getting bored with divorce and slavery.
> Funny and totally condescending. That's a fine line to walk.
I said it was a crap analogy. I was getting bored with divorce and slavery.
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
If the reaction of the markets in the last week has shown anything, it's that this isn't a zero sum game - if Scotland wins England doesn't automatically lose and vica versa. The markets certainly seem to believe that both countries lose if we split up. That and the British identity which encompasses the Scots too, potentially until this evening.
If the reaction of the markets in the last week has shown anything, it's that this isn't a zero sum game - if Scotland wins England doesn't automatically lose and vica versa. The markets certainly seem to believe that both countries lose if we split up. That and the British identity which encompasses the Scots too, potentially until this evening.
In reply to off-duty:
The prodigal son line at least was entertaining!
Markets always dip in times of uncertainty. They bounce.
The prodigal son line at least was entertaining!
Markets always dip in times of uncertainty. They bounce.
In reply to Stevie989:
the relentless centralisation of power has got to be a bad thing? when decisions are moved further away from the common man. Combine that with open borders.
the relentless centralisation of power has got to be a bad thing? when decisions are moved further away from the common man. Combine that with open borders.
In reply to Stevie989:
By this I mean, this new international order, or whoever the hell it is, wants supranations and standardized laws over a vast area. The prospect of devolution and self determination is scary for em.
By this I mean, this new international order, or whoever the hell it is, wants supranations and standardized laws over a vast area. The prospect of devolution and self determination is scary for em.
In reply to marelibertas:
Yet Scotland would be far more pro-Europe than England.. going independent would certainly mean Scotland would opt for an EU future..
> By this I mean, this new international order, or whoever the hell it is, wants supranations and standardized laws over a vast area. The prospect of devolution and self determination is scary for em.
Yet Scotland would be far more pro-Europe than England.. going independent would certainly mean Scotland would opt for an EU future..
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
Its not about holding on.. for me its about keeping Britain together.. quite simply I think we are all stronger as one than 4 separate entities, but I am pro-unions, pro-EU..
Its not about holding on.. for me its about keeping Britain together.. quite simply I think we are all stronger as one than 4 separate entities, but I am pro-unions, pro-EU..
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
Scotland is just like a surly teenager who wants to move out of home as ably depicted here by First Dog on the Moon:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/sep/19/first-dog-scot...
Scotland is just like a surly teenager who wants to move out of home as ably depicted here by First Dog on the Moon:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/sep/19/first-dog-scot...
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
T me it was all about the bloody cheek of it all.
When you join a club you go by the rules. If you don't like it you leave. Sounds fair?
However when you leave you don't take club resources with you. 1/1000th of the club laptop maybe?
They were welcome to go or stay to me but there is no way that any of the costs should have been passed onto the remainder of the country. And I mean all of them. If they wanted a hospital it should be paid for in full. I would like to think ( some hope) that the nationalists are offering to pay for the elections out of their pockets. Oh no. I have and yet there was no choice for me.
T me it was all about the bloody cheek of it all.
When you join a club you go by the rules. If you don't like it you leave. Sounds fair?
However when you leave you don't take club resources with you. 1/1000th of the club laptop maybe?
They were welcome to go or stay to me but there is no way that any of the costs should have been passed onto the remainder of the country. And I mean all of them. If they wanted a hospital it should be paid for in full. I would like to think ( some hope) that the nationalists are offering to pay for the elections out of their pockets. Oh no. I have and yet there was no choice for me.
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