UKC

Another independence referendum forum, sorry!!

Genuinely interested in people's answers, not after recriminations nor bitterness!

I didn't particularly like Alex Salmond, always found him a bit smug and condescending. I also felt the major issues like currency and EU membership weren't answered. However, I didn't like the way the government didn't provide answers to issues on currency and felt they were depriving people the right to an informed decision about independence. I did feel the snp could have done far more to lobby other countries regarding EU membership behind the scenes, but in reality don't know how easy or practical it would be.

In the last week I moved from borderline/ slight no towards yes. I like the idea of a fairer society, more equal, more green, but still with a thriving economy, very much along the Nordic model. I liked the move away from a parliament where we are a minor concern due to size and distance. I didn't go for the flag waving, freedom shouting nationalistic reason, just for the positive hopes of a change for the better. My hopes were for really close links, ties and friendships with our neighbours in England, Wales, n. Ireland and Republic of Ireland in trade etc.

My dad is in his early 70's and felt the currency issue was too big a hurdle to surmount. He worried for his pension and after living in scotland for forty odd years he actually talked of having to move south in the event of a yes! Talking to people in the final few days, the media reporting of businesses all threatening to up and leave, the uncertainty of the currency issue, all persuaded a few 'undecideds' to vote no. Better the devil you know etc.

It's not accurate or fair to say people voted no out of fear of the unknown, it probably comes across as quite provocative to some. It may well have been a factor for a few undecideds though.

So I am disappointed though not overly surprised today. It really began to feel like a change for the better and was a once in a lifetime opportunity. However, that is democracy and time to just get on with it.

So, after that long rambling post (sorry!), what were the motivations behind your own vote in the little piece of history we've just been a part of ?

In reply to Paul249:

I think all this talk of 'scare mongering' is absolute bollox, there was great deal to be scared about. You have something extraordinarily subtle, complex and multi layered that works pretty well for 300 years and you break it, then hope that what comes after will work well enough.

Salmond and the SNP reminded me nothing so much as a totally incompetent yachtsman setting out on a major voyage without preparation, without training, without contingency plans and without the right equipment. If he made it, solo, then people might say 'lucky, but well done'; if he drowned then people would shrug and say 'too bad'; but if he set out with a boatload of people who knew even less abut yachting and committed them to his great adventure then he would rightly be condemned, whatever the outcome. That was what Salmond did.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

So you voted no. Not trying to stimulate another debate on pros/cons as there are several other threads doing that quite adequately. Just interested in peoples personal experiences and motivations for their vote..

In reply to Paul249:

No, because Yes failed to make an adequate case for the possible benefits of independence against the undoubted costs.

In reply to Paul249:


ok...


What, like the pros and cons?

In reply to Skyfall:

Very good.

No, rob was giving a generalised opinion on the vote, scaremongering etc. I'm not dismissing that opinion, I'm just saying that's covered in depth in other threads. It was more peoples personal motivations. Nw's answer for example.

In reply to Paul249:

Oil - SNP predictions were way too optimistic and when caught out they just persisted telling everyone it will be fine and dandy. The company I work for will be decommissioning 3 platforms in the near future. One until this year was going to be the platform that outlasted the other 11 until to 2050. Lifting costs are just too high in the UK sector.

Salmond et al - their constant, and from day 1, way of describing anyone that questioned their campaign (and later the Bog Paper) of being scaremongering/project fear and latterly of a huge conspiracy. This fed down to the Yes supporters and resulted in unneccessary division. Quite obvious even from some of the debates on here. Although it was an effective technique which definitely won over some undecideds.

The union - I just couldn't believe that the nationalists wanted to break up a modern stable democracy. Could they not see there would unforseen circumstances (already happened even with a No). I also couldn't believe that most people wanted to separate, whilst still maintaining they abhorred nationalism. The fairer society thing I 100% subscribe to, but building more borders instead of working from within I just didn't understand.

Politicians - the number one quote I heard in the pubs and workplaces was was they are all just lying b******. I dont envy a politicians job at all and I don't think many people have any idea how hard and complex it is. If that was the main driver for some people, well......

In reply to Paul249:

To sum it up simply, I wanted a chance to do things better.

To expand a little further:

http://ciro-arrampicata.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/fear-over-hope.html

In reply to Paul249:

To live in a country where the political centre is to the left of where it is in the UK and inequality is lower.

I thought this was, in the long run, worth the short term economic risks. This was based on the damage that Thatcher did in the 80s. The Tories current spending plans - which would take us back to before the welfare state (proportionally speaking). The fact that there are plenty of small countries with similar resources that do fine - in the long run we could work our way around issues over currency, EU etc.

The main argument against, for me, was that maybe we'd just end up a bit of a tax haven. I didn't think this would happen, but it definitely could. I'd say about 70:30 against. Considering various factors. Voting patterns now (divergent), social attitude surveys (not so divergent), institutions (FPP v PR, the media). The clincher for me was that even if we did end up staying roughly inline with the UK, at least we had a chance of better. I see very little chance of that with the UK. It already is a tax haven.

In reply to Donnie:

In a nut shell, I abhor the inequality and poverty in Scotland. Subsequent Westminster governments have failed to really tackle it regardless of party, and the SNP also have failed to target it. Independence would offer a radical shake up of politics both north and south of the border and allow change to break out for everyone everywhere. Tory cuts and Labour throwing money at the problem isn't the solution either! Real change is needed in the social fabric of how we do things.

The sad fact is the well off, apathetic and old, sold out the poor, progressive and young out of fear. The vote demographics show clear patterns in yes/no votes between age and areas of affluence. Democracy is alive and kicking but social divide is rife! I have spoken to many who are comfortable earners and the general argument to me was "You're comfortable why change?" or "To be honest I don't really care about the 1 million in poverty, I only care about my own family" - and these aren't generalisations but views of most of my comfortable living friends.

Sadly I have came to realise that the problems aren't really with Scotland and Westminster, our true problems still exist in the fabric of our own society. Westminster are eating the cake, but we are the cooks!

In reply to Milesy:



Leaving aside concerns of social fairness, which not everyone gives a monkeys about, what is overlooked is that the disenfranchised, the hopeless and the have-nothings then get pissed off watching you and me swanning out of Waitrose and loading up the German SUV so they decide to break into our cars and houses because they want a bit of what we've got and they don't care about what that does to us because we don't care about them. But society is a dirty word in the UK.


And the toilets.

In reply to Paul249:

because neither side had a compelling arguemnt, given the chance to run things for ourselves by people who are probably interested in this country then why not give it a go, and maybe improve things, keep out of wars we shouldn't be in etc etc

In reply to Paul249:

I voted Yes. I had both my eyes open and also had reservations.

Salmond didn't convince on the currency and the economy, and while I consider independence to be a long game, as in looking at 5-10 years before things got even back on track or better from an economic perspective, I did have concerns about things like our mortgage and property values. While we're (my partner and I) not poor, neither are we rolling in it and something like even a moderate fall in property values would seriously dent our long term finances.

I believed that an independent Scotland would be politically more democratic than the UK. There are only 5.2 million of us and that means my voice would be 12 times louder as a citizen.

Milesy on this thread and Stuart the Postie on Roger Webb's thread outline my hopes better than I could so I'll refer you to them. Despite my political leanings, I never thought that an independent Scotland would transmogrify into an anarcho-syndicalist Utopia, more likely a centrist coalition where the worst excesses of the ultraliberal UK would be kept in check and hopefully a meritocratic society with a more level playing field would result.

A key personal aspect of my decision to vote Yes was that despite my reservations, I felt very strongly that if I played safe and voted No I would regret it for the rest my life, no matter the outcome.

I mostly predicted a narrow win for No and thought that I'd shrug my shoulders and think, back to normal, as it's not like I have such a bad life, but yesterday I felt profoundly bereft and empty, like a door had closed behind me and there was no going back though it.

In reply to Paul249:

I would have voted yes, but I didn't vote. I have been living in the UK for a little bit over 2 years now as I moved here from mainland Europe because of studies. I might leave the country after I graduate from the uni. Even if stay here, I am not sure if my kids would be growing up in Scotland.
Hence I wasn't sure if I am able to decide what's best for Scotland.

In reply to Removed User:

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I felt like that Wednesday night, at that point I thought yes would win.

I do sympathise, not that I suppose that is any comfort.

In reply to Milesy:

Couldn't have put it better myself

In reply to Paul249:

Westminster is a disgrace.

In reply to Paul249:

I voted "Yes" because I preferred the scary but fascinating possibilities of a new country to the ghastly certainties of the political-corporate-media nexus running Westminster, and what they have planned for us.

Whatever happens, as has been pointed out, the union has outlived its usefulness and is on death row. This referendum has bought it a little time, but the outcome is inevitable.

In reply to Paul249:

I voted Yes. Sick and tired of the Westminster "trough" mentality.

FAR too many in the trough. No accountability what so ever.

Unelected Lords who collectively "trousered" over £2.8 Million in expenses for the month of march alone!!

Promises made by Cameron et al that will NEVER be kept.

Grinning trolls like Gordon Brown who, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, decimated the UK pension funds in the 90's and had the rank hypocracy to claim that independance would damage Scottish pensions !!!!!!!

The icing on the cake was the news that MPs were looking to get a 10% pay rise.

In short, I like to get kissed before I get screwed!

In reply to Removed User:

' Despite my political leanings, I never thought that an independent Scotland would transmogrify into an anarcho-syndicalist Utopia, more likely a centrist coalition where the worst excesses of the ultraliberal UK would be kept in check and hopefully a meritocratic society with a more level playing field would result.'

F*ck me, that's a fancy way of saying things should have been better with an Indy Scotland!

In reply to Removed User:




That works both ways.. your voice is louder, but so is mr ultra-right wing, or mr racist..

Is there any evidence linking population size and politics or extremism?

I looked but didn't see much..

In reply to Paul249:

Voted No for various reasons. My positive reason is that , once an option of Federalism came on the table, that was always my preferred option, despite the difficulty of negotiation. The closeness of the vote suits me, because of the pressure it places to maintain a momentum and perhaps result in a UK open discussion on constitutional reform { A senate system like Australia? It worked well there when I was there for 8 Years}. Thought Yes vote would derail a green 2020 target for greenhouse emissions, heavily disrupting and delaying monetary incentive tp achieve this. Currency was major and the belief that the estimates of oil were overstated and we would have very high income tax and or cost of living to maitain services.