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Belay equipment, incompatible?

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BruceC 21 Sep 2014
Hello,

We were at a local climbing wall doing some lead and a member of staff came over to us and told us, quite rudely that my belay device and Karibiner were incompatible. He didn't go on to explain why or offer us to pay for one of theirs. He was pretty rude overall and we left as a result and may not be coming back.

However, i obviiously would like some advice as to if and why they are incompatible?

Belay device, black diamond ATC-XP: http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/black-diamond-atc-xp-2012-belay-device-e5210...

Karibener, Wild Coutry Titan: http://www.wildcountry.com/products/screwgate-karabiners/titan-keylock-scre...

I have been using this combination for a couple of years, with much more experienced climbers and no one has had a problem with it. Am i doing something wrong?

Thanks in advance...Bruce.
 Ciro 21 Sep 2014
In reply to BruceC:

The only explanation I can think of is the member of staff in question has been dabbling in hallucinogenic mushrooms at work.
 Nathan Adam 21 Sep 2014
In reply to BruceC:

Don't worry about climbing wall instructors giving you a hard time, I've had a guy at Ratho tell me it was wrong to belay off the rope loop instead of the belay loop on my harness..

The only possible thing I can see wrong with your set up is that the screwgate you have is not an HMS but know people who belay with a similar set up and it doesn't really bother me.

Go back and ask him why he thinks it isn't a suitable set up.
 DaveHK 21 Sep 2014
In reply to BruceC:

The only thing I can think of is that a biner with a pointy end like that one can stick up into the ATC and jam up when paying out. ATCs work best on something with a larger radius.

However, it's really minor and you obviously haven't had any trouble.
 gd303uk 21 Sep 2014
In reply to BruceC:
A screw gate with a good belay device, I cant imagine what the problem was.
the only thing I can think of is, maybe the krab bar isn't as round as the member of staff liked.
if you could be arsed I would get in touch with the manager and ask for an explanation and to draw their attention to his/her rude staff.
Post edited at 13:34
In reply to BruceC:

It is quite understandable if you consider not coming back to a gym with rude staff.
Especially as there was no safety issue with your combination of gear.
In reply to BruceC:

Sounds like a moron. Why not name and shame wall?
 kyaizawa 21 Sep 2014
In reply to BruceC:

They're probably on about the screw gate being a D rather than the recommended HMS which as others have pointed out is more likely to jam and has a smaller radius.

I personally would use an HMS for ease of handling, but it's certainly not something to get rude about!! It may be worth double checking the wall's guidelines/t&c sheet to see whether they specifically require you to use an HMS; but even then, you're a customer so no excuse for rudeness!!
 Mountain Llama 21 Sep 2014
In reply to BruceC: Hi Bruce your using a D type krab, traditionally most folks us an hms for their belay plate. Certainly strong enough but not much space to tie your partner off on plus v limited space to add clove hitches to for building a belay etc.

 Merlin 21 Sep 2014
In reply to BruceC:

Your gear is fine.

In fact, D shape biners are often better with a single rope as the shape naturally pulls the rope against the back bar (strongest part of the krab), where as a HMS has the tendancy to spin around and cross load as you're belaying.

The benefits of a HMS for climbing outdoors are largely academic at the wall!
 Timmd 21 Sep 2014
In reply to BruceC:
If you otherwise like the wall I'd go back (having got in touch with the manager too), seems a shame to not to a wall you'd use otherwise.

You can always have a response about the difference between incompatible and not commonly suggested combination ready in your head I guess.
Post edited at 17:32
 JoshOvki 21 Sep 2014
In reply to BruceC:

Nothing dangerous with the combination, only thing I can think of is it might be easier for you with a HMS as the rope tends to feed better. I saw a few odd things when I was working at a wall, a couple of them where fundamentally unsafe, in situations like that I would step in, but not using a HMS with a belay plate no problem.
In reply to BruceC:

Go back and ask him what he's ever done on grit....

I realise that us dinosaurs who started climbing before the wall boom like to spout about indoor climbing and people who never venture outdoors, but do we now have to worry about the staff as well?

He's clearly been on a course: such unshakeable stupidity can only come from didactic teaching in a classroom. With powerpoint slides. Practical experience teaches us to use a bit of sensible thought.

I wouldn't stop using the wall if you like it, though; personally, I'd have handed him his @rse on the spot, but going back armed with some knowledge and confidence should let you deal with him more diplomatically.

Martin
BruceC 21 Sep 2014
In reply to BruceC:

Cheers for all the responses!...yeah i'm sure i'll still go back and now i'm armed with a response!
 Doghouse 21 Sep 2014
In reply to Mountain Llama:

> but not much space to tie your partner off on plus v limited space to add clove hitches to for building a belay etc.

You add clove hitches to your belay crab???
 Roberttaylor 21 Sep 2014
In reply to BruceC:

Go back and belay using a munter hitch. That will mess them up.
In reply to Mountain Llama:

> Hi Bruce your using a D type krab, traditionally most folks us an hms for their belay plate. Certainly strong enough but not much space to tie your partner off on plus v limited space to add clove hitches to for building a belay etc.

I've never had to build a belay in a climbing gym. You can easily tie someone off with an offset D krab.
 PPP 21 Sep 2014
In reply to Roberttaylor:

My local wall does not allow body belay, but I haven't noticed them not allowing munter hitch. It's probably not allowed, but I didn't notice that in the rules the last time I've read them.
 andrewmc 21 Sep 2014
In reply to Nath93:

> Don't worry about climbing wall instructors giving you a hard time, I've had a guy at Ratho tell me it was wrong to belay off the rope loop instead of the belay loop on my harness..

I'm not sure why you would ever do this indoors though - you add an extra element that can go wrong (the knot) with no benefit (since you are not anchored), so while I think it would be a bit OTT for a climbing wall to ban it and not strictly correct to say it is 'wrong', I don't think it is best practice indoors? This is the same reason you are not (generally) allowed to clip in with a screwgate after all (minimise safety chain).
 jwa 21 Sep 2014
In reply to andrewmcleod:

> I'm not sure why you would ever do this indoors though - you add an extra element that can go wrong (the knot) with no benefit...

If you're top-roping the same line a few times it can save a bit of time if you both tie in at the same time. In that instance you could choose to belay off the belay loop or the rope loop. So long as your knot is tied correctly it's fine. And so long as your harness is buckled correctly the other way is fine.

In reply to Bruce, they were clearly upset that you were using two different brands of climbing gear. Your harness is probably from a different company as well I imagine.
 Nathan Adam 21 Sep 2014
In reply to andrewmcleod:

If you have two people who want to climb on the same route(s) (bottom roping) then having both tied in can speed up the process a wee bit.

I was just unimpressed by the fact that a climbing 'instructor' was of the opinion that belaying on a rope loop was seen to be wrong.
In reply to Roberttaylor:
> (In reply to BruceC)
>
> Go back and belay using a munter hitch. That will mess them up.

You'd probably want an HMS Krab for that...
In reply to BruceC:

That carabiner does look like it has pronounced corners. Could it be that the instructor was feeling a bit sensitive about the wear and tear on the ropes? Of course it's not dangerous but if everyone used it might the walls go through more ropes and then be more expensive to visit?
 jkarran 22 Sep 2014
In reply to BruceC:

They're not incompatible.

You might find it a little easier to use and more predictable in its behavior with a more pear shaped HMS type krab but if you're happy with it as is then carry on, it's a safe and functional combo.

jk
 BarrySW19 22 Sep 2014
In reply to BruceC:

Personally, I probably wouldn't use a standard krab with only a 7kN cross-load rating for belaying as they do have a tendency to rotate into a cross loaded position. I prefer to use a krab which has a mechanism to capture the belay loop to prevent it rotating (e.g. http://www.rockrun.com/dmm-belay-master-2/ ).

However, this is largely personal preference. Top roping is not going to generate forces close to 7kN and even lead falls are highly unlikely to on indoor routes. I can see why other krabs would be preferred, but there's nothing wrong with your basic setup.
 Neil Williams 22 Sep 2014
In reply to PPP:

It commonly isn't allowed as it wears ropes and puts twists into them.

Neil
 Toerag 22 Sep 2014
In reply to BruceC:

Having had a D krab get wedged up in a belay device before (DMM Bug?) it is most likely this that he didn't like, unless it was the twistlock aspect of the gate.
 gd303uk 22 Sep 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:
off topic i know but ,
if try the Super/Double Munter, it might wear your ropes but it untwists itself, very nice/handy.

G
Post edited at 15:09

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