UKC

Just signed the waiver for a climbing wall whilst in Texas for a week and one of the rules was:
'Shirts must be worn at all times' - is this ever asked for in the UK?
Personally I would be in favour of it, as there is no need. What do you think?

In reply to djwilse:

It's a rule at one wall I've climbed at. Seems fair enough to me, not everyone is into the SOBO look.

In reply to djwilse:

I think there is a rule about it at EICA Ratho. I remember seeing it written down in a list somewhere, along with not swearing.... but then again, there is a rule that everyone is supposed to wear their wrist bands and that rarely happens. I think the rules at Ratho are there only so that if someone is being OTT, the instructors have something to point at when they ask the person to stop swearing/screaming/put their top on.

Oh, I remember there is a rule about tops staying on that is enforced (or was when I was there) at Transition in Aberdeen.

Personally I don't care if people want to climb with their tops off (unless they are women, in which case I am all for it!) but I can also see that others might find it intimidating. I think it should be possible to keep most people happy by having a balance; take your top off for the time it takes you to try your problem and put it on afterward, don't walk around topless and dont go campussing topless (there really is no nead for that at all).

In reply to djwilse:

There is a climbing centre in Poole that states you must have a top on at all times. I personally don't have a problem with people climbing without a top on, also as they have an upper body that warrents it.
I always climb with a top on as I believe that im carrying a few to many pounds around my waist. But I have seen at one centre that I climb at, a bloke in his late 50's turn up and before he has even warmed up his top is off. and he is carrying about the same amount of extra weight as me.

In reply to djwilse:

Climbing without a top is tasteless posing

In reply to djwilse:

Most walls in Germany where I live have a shirts on rule, commonly ignored at bouldering walls. Was informed by my climbing partner last weekend - female but, like me, no longer really in the youth demographic - that the young lasses in the changing room at our local bouldering wall are *most* appreciative of the young lads ignoring the shirts on rule.

So there you go lads. If you've got it, flaunt it. But if you haven't, don't.

In reply to djwilse:

I think in some walls that have a lot of beginner groups of young children they think it might be a bit inappropriate to have grown men wandering around topless, i'm pretty sure that was why they did it at Calshot.

When the rule was changed, one serial topless climber asked why he had to wear a shirt and it was explained to him about the need for decency but he could wear a vest as long as his nipples were covered. His interpretation of this was to continue to climb topless but with finger tape over his nips in a little burlesque cross, it didn't go down all that well with the centre staff...

In reply to Trangia:

Nonsense. Bouldering walls are hot amd sweaty for 9 months of the year. Climbing with your top off makes it slightly more bearable. Plus it's nice to have eye candy to admire.

I'm grateful that The Depot in Leeds doesn't have a rule like this, I climb in my sports bra quite frequently (as do quite a few of the other women in there).

In reply to climbingpixie:

These kind of 'decorum' rules have always been the norm for those playing conventional indoor sports like badminton and ever since the dawn of indoor climbing walls such rules have been laughed at by climbers as being ridiculous. I might find the sight of a lardy torso a bit unpleasant but I'm struggling to see any way it could actually cause offence in any way (otherwise surely there would be calls to enforce full-body beachwear.) And the idea that a male nipple needs to be covered to maintain decency is laughably prudish (disturbingly so, even) and should have no place in climbing, indoors or out.
I'm all for climbers maintaining decency in covering private parts but attempts to enforce a priggish victorian morality at walls should be actively opposed.

I take my top off when bouldering or doing powerful routes because my t-shirt gets so sweaty. It's uncomfortable wearing a wet shirt for 3 hours when twisting and turning. It's not indecent and doesn't expose anything you wouldn't see at a swimming pool or beach. What's the problem really?

In reply to Pete Dangerous:
I dont see why blokes find this so unreasonable, women have to manage so whats so difficult?

In reply to pebbles:

What's unreasonable about not wearing a top?

In reply to djwilse:

Top off every time, unless its actually cold. So much freer and easier to visualise doing the moves. "Tops must be worn" is just the same old jobsworth / 'elf an safety / everyone's a paedo obsession.

In reply to djwilse:

These rules, like most at climbing walls, are basically there to be ignored by any self-respecting climber (up to the point where a ban is seriously threatened). They strike at the anarchic roots which are at the very heart of climbing and as such must be resisted at almost all costs. This is climbing we are talking about, not some contrived game with formal rules. Personally I keep my top on (or at least a vest) but am often told my shorts are indecent. I don't care.

In reply to djwilse:
As Climbingpixie says, many of the women climb in just sports bras which is the same as blokes without a t-shirt. It is too hot to have a t-shirt on sometimes and I would ruin a lot of t-shirts from the amount of sweat. Maybe to make everyone feel more comfortable there should be a "no tops" rule then everyone would be equal.

In reply to silhouette:

Climbing walls are businesses - if they believe having tops-off climbers makes their centre less attractive to customers then it makes sense for them to ban it. And remember, a lot of their profit comes from children's birthday parties. Personally I don't mind, but if I was running a wall I wouldn't want parents going away complaining how all their party photos have flabby topless men in.

If you don't like it, feel free to open a climbing wall and set whatever rules you like.

In reply to djwilse:

Personally as someone who overheats while climbing and is much more comfortable climbing shirt-off I'd not be in favor of silly prescriptive rules. In general I'd not be in favor of silly prescriptive rules.

Why do people assume others climbing shirt-off are doing it for the look, to pose or to intimidate. My upper body could have come from a slightly tubby bear with mange, it doesn't have fancy tattoos, rippling muscles or a perfect tan, I'm not showing it off I'm cooling it down. Get over it.

jk

In reply to climbingpixie:



Totally agree with you. People that object to this are a bit strange.

In reply to BarrySW19:


Sort of agree. I can see how a wall where there are dozens of shirtless blokes hanging around comparing their muscles under the steep board might be offputting for casual punters by creating a bit of a "wads only" vibe, and while casual punters ought to be able to ignore it and/or deal with it, I wouldn't expect a wall that's working hard to stay afloat to lose customers on a point of principle...

On the other hand, I think a lot of places - particularly walls in general purpose leisure centres - probably do it out of an over-the-top sense of enforced taste public decency, and yeah, that's a bad thing. I may think that the guy hanging shirtless is basically just showing off, but that's his problem and not mine. I don't expect the wall to put a stop to it any more than I'd expect them to stop people with crap haircuts or t-shirts for awful bands coming in.

In reply to I like climbing:


Not really. I don't think it's on the grounds of 'decency' i.e. prudishness that people object. It's this:


The wall I climbed at that has this rule is one which is aiming to be a both a decent bouldering wall with training facilities, and a fun friendly place for beginners and kids. If it's totally dominated by muscled, tattoo'd 20-something blokes with their tops off yelling 'send it dude' then it's no longer a friendly place for beginners. The wall still wants their business and for them to enjoy it, but having their shirts on takes the edge off the macho/intimidating atmosphere it creates for others who aren't in their gang.

I don't think strong lads who climb with their shirts off necessarily do so to pose - but if they're wearing a beanie*, then seriously, wtf?



*do people still do this? I haven't been to a bouldering wall for a while. Oh how I look forward to the winter...

In reply to Ramblin dave:



Why would this apply at a climbing wall and not at a swimming pool?

In reply to Pete Dangerous:


Because it's reasonable to ask someone to put a shirt on at a wall but not a pool.

Because all customers going to a pool expect everyone to be in swimwear.

I don't go to a gym, but the wall is the same as that. Is it normal to have shirts off in the gym (genuine question)? I'm guessing it depends on the gym...

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Gyms tend to have 'shirts on' rules. Usually because you're sitting on benches/machines etc and it's preferable to not have direct (sweaty) skin contact with such shared equipment. Even with shirts on you should wipe down the gear after you.

I'm all for climbing with tops off in the bouldering wall though. I tend to run hot and feel much more comfortable with my top off. For the record I have a stunning six-pack, a year-round tan and big muscly arms

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Posing aside, some people have a serious personal hygiene problem. Not much point in having the body of Adonis if you smell like a sewer.

BO can be controlled. In my experience it's so often topless men who are worst offenders when it comes to BO.

If you've been working hard, fresh sweat isn't an unpleasant smell, it's accumulative stale sweat smell that's so revolting, and that's a result of inadequate washing of body, underwear and clothing very regularly. Some people may need to shower more than once a day. Most gyms have shower rooms, so people unfortunate enough to have a BO problem should shower/scrub on arrival and at the end, and use soap.

In reply to djwilse:

Mark of a shit climbing wall that is.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

yeah, I agree. it can all become a bit of a testosterone-fest, specially when you have loads of lads in their teens running around whooping loudly while they try to establish which one of them is manliest

In reply to djwilse:

If you are leading 7a or above, top off is acceptable. Anything below, top should definitely be on, and they shouldn't wear Solutions. Combining the two should result in permanent ban. Falling off a 6a TR topless is not a good look...

In reply to djwilse:

Climbing topless has official endorsement from one of our best:

"Well, it’s obvious as hell, but loads of folk still don’t do it; take clothes off! Although showing off might be a side effect for some, the reason those guys at the climbing wall take their t-shirts off is just to stick to the holds better. Shorts and vests are kind of out of fashion just now, which is a shame since they are good for keeping cool. Climbers used to be good at ignoring fashions. How good are they now at this?"

- http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/sweaty-hands-manage-it.ht...

Good enough reason for me, plus I save on washing T-shirts, reducing my carbon footprint which benefits all of us

In reply to Ramblin dave:

I see your point in it not making a family, beginners, kids friendly atmosphere if its filled with topless muscle bound guys power screaming. But sometimes it can be just hot.

Personally, I rarely climb topless as it's not often that hot, but I have on occasion in very hot conditions when working hard and did once get told to my t-shirt back on. I certainly don't go topless to show off my rather pale skinny torso.

I think men should be allowed to climb topless if they want to, I see the point that it might be off putting to some but if you can walk down a public street with your top off then it must been deemed publicly decent. So it sort of rules out the "but there are children about" issue as presumably that is implying it's somehow sexual and children should be shielded from it. I don't think it is particularly, mean yes a toned, tanned topless man may be appealing to woman but equally so would an equally attractive woman in a small strappy top and tight shorts on to men.

Maybe take a balanced view where its officially tops on for atmosphere reasons, but don't enforce it too much when it's clearly a very hot day and they are working hard and maybe make the training area/room exempt.

In reply to ChrisBrooke:



It's a curious phenomenon that this tendency to overheat at the bouldering wall mainly seems to affect the more muscly climbers..

In reply to ChrisBrooke:


This is why I'd have a shirts on rule - who wants to fall on a slimy sweat mark on the mats from the previous boulder's fall? You wouldn't want people climbing without shoes for the same reason.

In reply to climbingpixie:



Hmm. Where exactly is this Depot. Might have to pay it a visit.

I'm a very live and let live kind of guy. Tops off is fine, it doesn't realy affect me.

Leaving sweat on mats is just bad manners anyway. Everyone should be carrying a smal hand towel anyway or using the top they're not wearing to wipe the sweat up.

In reply to Robbiobaby:

I disagree - if the men wanted to wear sports bras that would be fine and they would count as covered. I don't really mind whether the rule is tops optional or not provided it is enforced equivalently for men and women (see New York). As already said it is nearly always 'tops on' in gyms.

In the two walls I go to, it is 'tops on' in the more public-friendly wall with lots of beginners and 'tops optional' in the more climber-centric centre which is mostly bouldering.

In reply to DancingOnRock:


I think it was my namesake the American satirist that described climbing walls as "meat markets for granola hipsters". I guess encouraging disrobing is one way to increase participation...

In reply to djwilse:
It's climbing, not golf.

In reply to Pete Dangerous:


In a word: MOOBS!


Having said that, TOFP doesn't bother me.

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

Logically it's the working of these muscles that generates heat, therefore more muscles = more heat.

For the sake of everyone though I'll keep my wet top on for now.

In reply to andrewmcleod:


I don't know if you've noticed social conventions in western society, but man shirtless is usually regarded as equivalent to woman in bra/bikini top. Ask the sociologists/anthropologists why if you like, but that's the convention.

Also, man in bra is regarded as cross-dressing and far outside social convention. So far from it being regarded as OK, it would cause embarrassment.

These tips and tricks might be handy!

In reply to djwilse:

I don't use indoor walls anymore, but other than the obvious need for a pair of shorts I prefer to climb with as little clothing as the temperature allows. This isn't about showing off, it applies whether there are others around or it's just myself, a mate and some seagulls. Less clothes = less restriction and less heating when the muscles are working. If it's comfortable to stand around at the base of the crag in just a T-shirt then it's not going to be comfortable to work a physically demanding route, and that's outdoors with a breeze - why anyone would want a shirt on in a sweaty climbing gym in the summer is beyond me.

In reply to pebbles:


But it makes it even better when you burn them off though

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Feels weird to hear climbers pointing out social 'conventions' (and not breaking them). It was also the social convention for women to be owned by their husbands and not have the right to vote/think...

And it's a sad day for sexual equality if a man in a bra is still cause for 'embarrassment'!

(PS My point about New York is that it is legal for a woman to be topless in any place a man can be, which some women do take advantage of in parks/public spaces etc, due to laws protecting sexual equality)

In reply to Jim Hamilton:


It affects me and I'm a tubby sod. So I keep my shirt on, don't want to scar everyone for life.

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

Muscly climbers are muscly because they work hard training so get hotter, hence need to take their tops off.

In reply to djwilse:

Yes, Big Rock require shirts to be worn. It was because there are so many kids around and it resulted in complaints, I believe.

Neil

In reply to andrewmcleod:


Well, you know, we live in society too. All human behaviour is governed or at least influenced by convention: it's called culture. People who think that they're part of some radical convention-breaking movement are equally bound by their own set of marginally different conventions. I don't class climbers as such a group (I'm thinking more of crusties), but you seem to?


Really? I'm pretty sure that the consensus is that bloke bouldering in a bra would be a very odd sight. I also can't see why that's wrong or bad.

I don't really understand what you consider sexual equality to mean.


If women are campaigning for the right to go topless in public, they might consider how else they could be applying their engergy IMO. Tits seeming "rude" is not, as I see it, part of the structures of inequality that we could do with addressing.

In reply to Pete Dangerous:


Really? I am the sweatiest man I know and I have never raised more than a light sheen bouldering, even when putting in hte effort.

In reply to Robbiobaby:


You might find if you had a massive flabby belly and lardy arse that you'd need to work harder and you'd get hotter, actually. And yet you'd be less likely to take your shirt off.

I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with it, but being honest about it, if a) you're too hot and b) you think you look good shirtless, you're an awful lot more likely to take your shirt off in a busy bouldering wall than if you're too hot and you're a big fatty. Just how it is.

In reply to djwilse:

Bollocks. Unnecessary rule making for rule making's sake, peddled on the back of a ridiculous taboo-ification of bare skin.

Who gives a damn? If you don't want to see someone's skin, look elsewhere. If anyone has seriously complained about someone climbing topless in a gym in the UK, they should get a grip.

In reply to hellboundblr:

Yeah nice, than instead of having a wet top you can let your sweat drip every where for everyone else deal with.

In reply to Dandan:

The story continues that the offender then was made to wear a vest which he had cut two holes in so his nipples were visible. A quick trip to the wall managers office stopped that.

Wonder if he will see this...

In reply to djwilse:

Mandatory tops off for everyone at all walls

In reply to djwilse:

Well I don't know about all walls but I'm pretty sure that GCC and TCA subscribe to the conventions of this reliable source:

http://www.taps-aff.co.uk/

In reply to sam.sam.sam.ferguson:

Oh yeah, it's all flooding back to me now, thing is i'm not sure I can recall who it was, I have a suspicion but it's between two people.

In reply to djwilse:

Technically it's not illegal for anyone to walk around completely naked so long as no one takes offence.

So a rule saying you have to wear a top is more likely to apply when someone actually complains or if the wall owners have had previously had complaints or think it's likely that someone will complain.

My wife complains when I mow the lawn topless out front but not out back. Strange really because more people can see into our back garden than can see me in our front garden.

In reply to djwilse:

The thing that confuses me is how boulderers claim to need to take their tops off because they're hot whilst simultaneously wearing a heavy pair of canvas trousers....

In reply to Toerag:

And a woolly hat.

(As someone who does overheat, and relies on losing heat through my head, I can *never* understand how anyone can do that - a vented helmet is bad enough, but a woolly hat?!)

Neil

In reply to djwilse:

I often want to be topless when climbing, its just more comfortable. It only tends to happen when I'm not currently also podgy though. That doesn't mean that sometimes I'm showing off, it means that sometimes I'd rather not have people spot the gut. Guess I'm just incredibly vain

In reply to djwilse:

Their walls, their rules I guess.

I don't climb topless but then I'm not trying to pull so hard I start sweating.

In reply to 999thAndy:


Ah, I see!

In reply to Nic DW:



genius!

In reply to Dandan:

From my memory it was Mr schofield. A legend for random funny stories.

Hope your well any way Dan, it's been a while.

In reply to djwilse:

Interesting debate... I climbed at said wall last night and it was pretty warm there (outside air temp was around 28degs). Everyone kept their tops on and many seemed to climb pretty hard. There were quite a few kids around (Texas team has been jnr US champions for last few years).
As an aside there was also a specific wall set up for speed climbing (2 identical routes with a tap buzzer at top)- really cool to watch.

In reply to djwilse:

Not read the rest but if I can't cool down enough with a top on, I take it off, else I leave it on. Simple.

If you're a sweaty fingertip skin sufferer then 'every little helps', Dave Macleod has mentioned it in a few of his articles, hence he's usually got the chest on show.

I've noticed that many of the women at my local climbing wall make use of sports bras for climbing in too. I know it's not quite tops off but close enough...

In reply to Blackmud:



Who gives a damn? Probably the people who have invested their money in a climbing wall and are getting negative feedback from customers. A climbing wall is not democratised public space. At a public crag people can do what they like as long as it's legal, at a climbing wall you follow the owner's rules or you go somewhere else.

In reply to djwilse:

The solution in not rules but air-con... chill the place down and tops will soon get put on

In reply to Neil Williams:

I used to climb at westway and didn't mind the shirts off 'culture' (nor beanies etc) but I have to say that seeing people with tops off dripping sweat in the summer on the bouldering mats I wasn't so thrilled about.

Also the shirts off culture was taken a bit too far by some - it was not uncommon for guys to turn up in their work clothes, strip down to their underwear by the wall to get changed when there were changing rooms down the corridor. I can definitely see why a business would not want to encourage this, especially with kids etc.

When I moved and started climping at big rock I found it a lot better than westway in this respect and I suspect the shirts on rule does help.

In reply to Jim Hamilton:


Maybe they're more muscly because they're training harder?

In reply to djwilse:
Yes, that's what attracted me to climbing, all the rules. Dear God, climbing really is becoming like golf. I'm not sure what's worse, that these rules exist or that a significant amount of climbers actually agree with them.

In reply to Simos:

>...I can definitely see why a business would not want to encourage this, especially with kids etc.

Genuine question, why "especially with kids"?

There really isn't anything offensive about a man in pants getting changed...

In reply to 999thAndy:


Tend to agree with this. Sorry if its going against the grain but general view is if they are providing a facility which we are paying for, and they have terms and conditions we sign up to abide by, then we kind of need to abide by them

Their sandpit, their rules

In reply to John_Hat:

Absolutely right.

Mind you, any establishment that has this particular rule is invariably an absolutely shite wall more concerned with flogging mochachinos to yummy mummies watching their eight-year-olds toprope 3-ses in helmets than promoting actual climbing, but then that goes without saying.

Always amazes me the people who think people take their shirts off in order to show off their body. Believe me, you are wrong, and not just wrong, but embarrassingly revealing personal issues of your own which would be better hidden.

jcm

In reply to BarrySW19:

I understand why owners of a wall would jump to make a rule if swathes of complaints were coming in about something, that is quite straightforward and understandable.

What I don't understand is why people would complain about it in the first place.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


What a load of tripe.

The guys who take their shirts off the most often the muscely ones, because they feel at ease or good about going shirtless in a public place. Some are posers, some are not. This is utterly obvious.

Wtf are you on about, personal issues?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Big Rock doesn't fit that description. Though it does make a lot of money from kids clubs, instructors and taster sessions, as a climber I'm quite happy for them to do this as it's far more profitable to them than selling monthly memberships to climbers, so they are subsidising me, effectively.

Neil

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



Climbing walls are there to make money, not 'promoting actual climbing' To me 'actual climbing' goes on outside.


Ha ha ha - I must see a shrink.

In reply to 999thAndy:


That's an increasingly outmoded view. Indoor climbing is increasingly a sport in its own right. And why not? Does actual swimming only go on in lakes, rivers and the sea, with swimming pools only existing to make money?

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

Maybe it's the distinction between 'training' and 'performing'. Indoor climbing is for me training, outdoor climbing is performing. Indoor walls (where the training takes place) are by and large private concerns, run to make a profit.

In reply to 999thAndy:

Which is fine, but not everyone agrees with you.

Yes, they are mainly profit-making businesses, but so are a lot of sports facilities. Climbing is relatively unusual in being a sport that (when practiced outdoors) is practiced in locations where it is free of charge.

Neil

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Hmm, want to explain the guys who are so warm they have to take off their shirts but, bizarrely not their hats? There was one guy at the wall this weekend (hat, no-shirt) who didn't even seem to be climbing. He just strutted around for a while, did a few press ups, tried a 7a, fell off after a couple of moves and went home.

Like I say, it really doesn't bother me one way or the other, but let's not pretend some of these guys are doing anything other than trying to show off.

In reply to Neil Williams:

To be honest, whether you view walls as being for training or for "performance" doesn't change the fact that they're businesses and have to keep an eye on the bottom line. And most walls I've been to seem to cover all the bases as much as possible - I'd guess that in most places in the UK, a large wall that didn't care about the kids parties and first-timers and bumbly top ropers and just pulled out all the stops to be the ultimate hardcore training venue would seem like a great idea for about the three months it took it to run out of money and fold.

Not saying that everywhere should have a tops-on rule - it's up to them to use some common sense and decide whether whether the amount of torso on display is really putting other customers off - just that it's a bit naive to expect large and expensive operations to be run as a charity to suit your personal preferences.

In reply to djwilse:


Unless you are too warm, of course.

In reply to Durbs:

Maybe next time you go to drop your kids off to nursery, you can go in your pants and see whether other parents and the owners of the nursery would consider it offensive or not. Lol

In reply to BarrySW19:
No you got it all wrong, nobody is showing off mate - everyone's really hot and can't climb with a sleeveless vest and shorts on in the UK. Meanwhile in most other sports people can somehow manage with shirts on regardless of the fact that they have to run for miles doing their sport as opposed to doing a few moves up a bouldering wall before falling off.

I don't have a particular problem with shirts off (other than dripping sweat on the mats) but lets at least admit that a big part of it is about showing off (nothing wrong with that either, if you've got it flaunt it and all that).

In reply to Simos:

But a climbing wall is not a nursery, and it is ridiculous and hysterical (and all too common these days) to expect anywhere where kids might happen to be be to be run as if it were a nursery.

Parents need to understand when they are bringing their kids into an environment that is primarily for the purposes of an adult sporting activity, that things will be somewhat different to how they are at kindergarten. I as a parent certainly never had any difficulty grasping this.

(Of course, if climbing wall owners choose to run their businesses with childcare as a primary focus and risk being thereby less appealing to the adult climber market, and are commercially successful going down this road, than good luck to them and tough luck adult climbers)

In reply to djwilse:

There is a rule at Calshot. It seems crazy to me, after all, we don't ask this at facilities such as swimming pools. I think it's come from gyms, where shirts stop the equipment from getting quite so sweaty.

In reply to Dandan:


Why is men with shirts off a problem for children? They seem to manage just fine at other sporting facilities like swimming pools, and on the beach. How is seeing a man with his top off going to harm a child? In fact, it's a healthy thing for children to see human bodies in all their glory and realise that nudity isn't a sexual thing in this context.

In reply to Robbiobaby:


Well - it's not, is it? There are times when I would climb topless if it were socially acceptable, but as JCT kindly pointed out to us all, it's not, is it? Obviously, our nipps are much more harmful to children than men's ones, unless we are actually shoving them down their throats and squirting our bodily fluids into them.

In reply to Neil Williams:

What is this worry about the sight of nipples hurting children, when nipples evolved in the first place expressly for children?!

In reply to Jon Stewart:


It's time to wheel out JCT and ginger kate, isn't it?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-l1c2OKL_cfQ/TuH8UQzbqUI/AAAAAAAAG6M/3wCwdSZzZw8/s...

Women are quite capable of doing more than one thing at a time. You have the freedom to go topless, so don't go around telling people who don't have that freedom that they should shut up and not complain.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n06/mary-beard/the-public-voice-of-women

In reply to tlm:


It's amazing how kids seem to cope on beaches in places like France when they are confronted with women with their tops off as well! Maybe they're all secretly growing up scarred for life...

In reply to climbingpixie:

I was thinking about it on the way to work, and I think all this false prudishness is coming from the states. For goodness sakes - FULL nudity does no harm to children!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Hmm, not to get too off topic but I wouldn't be so sure about that. The over sexualisation of breasts when bare male chests are ok is a double standard that says a lot about how we as a society view women's bodies. The fact that a woman's appearance says a lot about how she will be judged is absolutely part of the 'structure of inequality'.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Big Rock stated at the time (as some people complained) that they considered themselves a family environment. It doesn't seem to have done any damage to their business. Indeed, as instructed sessions are far more profitable than entrance fees it isn't likely to, either.

Neil

In reply to tlm:

Not just that, though. There are still old-style "hard blokes" gyms about where massive blokes pump iron with no shirts on. They don't provide a welcoming environment to those new to the activity.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:


Presumably very large and/or very climbery places like Sheffield and London have still got old-style "hard blokes" climbing walls, too? (And if not, they probably should...) It's just places like Milton Keynes where running a decent sized climbing wall is unsustainable if you aren't also doing a decent trade in beginners' classes and mocacchinos.

Although thinking about it, given the cash to be made from one-off climbing-activity-day type sessions, they could probably also do alright by allowing shirts off and tapping into the alternative hen-do market.

In reply to tlm:



Mary Beard's lecture is very interesting but (genuine question) can you just tell us what it's got to do with anything else on here? I don't see it meself.

In reply to djwilse:

As a mildly interesting interjection from the continent:

At my local bouldering wall, it gets so hot in there in the summer (even with the fans blowing) that 90% of the the men are climbing without a shirt (and the women in lightweight vests). There are all sorts of body shapes on display, and nobody cares.

I guess a wall banning topless climbing is only doing so in order to appeal to certain customers level of prudishness (as exemplified of dozens of responses on this thread) and, being a private venue, they can pretty much set whatever rules they want.

Personally I don't get it, why does seeing a male nipple make some people so uncomfortable?

In reply to Ramblin dave:

You might be right - but even as a climber I quite like the atmosphere of the place, and I have used its other facilities as well - for example, I've gone for a lunchtime boulder then worked in their cafe for an afternoon (I can work anywhere I can get good wi-fi).

Neil

In reply to tlm:

Generally Sports bras cover womens nipples - I'm confused!

In reply to Robbiobaby:

That's the point.

Men climbing in a shirt, nipples away - apparently OK.
Men climbing topless, nipples out - apparently OK.

Women climbing in a shirt/sports bra, nipples away - apparently OK.
Women climbing topless, nipples out - apparently not OK?

Why is there a different standard for men and women (not restricted to climbing)? Climbing in a sports bra is the same as climbing in a shirt - it is NOT the same as climbing topless. It may be considered the same 'level of decency' or similar by some people but it shouldn't be.

As already stated I have no objection to the rules provided they are equivalent for men and women.

In reply to Neil Williams:


I'm not quite sure of the point you're making. Yes there are, and a good thing too. Sadly not that many any more.


Is there some reason why they should? (I mean, other than their own commercial wellbeing)

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Mens and ladies breasts are treated differently outside of the climbing world so you can't really change that for the sake of political correctness at the climbing centre.

Personally think you should be allowed to boulder topless as long as you are not wearing a hat.

In reply to AlanLittle:

No, as a business can (within certain laws) do what it likes. But because old customers go away, you only get new ones if they feel welcomed.

Other than, as some said, in very large cities (or concentrations of climbers, weightlifters or whatever) such a gym/wall won't be viable.

As to whether it's a good thing or not - I don't find such environments welcoming, doubtless some do. If there are increasingly smaller numbers of them, that probably means the majority don't.

Neil

In reply to doz generale:

Having a tendency to overheat, I can't see why anyone ever wears a beanie other than in the middle of winter when it's cold. Top on or not.

Neil

In reply to AlanLittle:


If I was trying to run a business then I'd say that my own commercial wellbeing (or survival) was a pretty good reason.

In reply to tlm:


I genuinely can't understand why women would feel oppressed by the so-called double standard about going topless. The reason I'm dismissing what I see as a complete waste of time and energy is not because I think women should just generally shut up, as you imply, but because I cannot for the life of me see what they're campaigning for, nor why. I don't understand the case.

We live in a society in which, for whatever reason, there are very strong social norms about nudity: one cannot be naked in public, in the office, etc. Presumably most people are quite happy with this, they don't feel oppressed by having to keep their clothes on at work. Only a total nutter would campaign for the "right" or the "freedom" to get their hairy ballsack out on the bus, or wherever.

I think that the detail of these social norms are driven by what we experience as sexual. Women have breasts and men don't. This is what causes the inequality, not some restriction of women's freedoms placed on them by men.

I can't get my head around this idea that not showing off your sexual bits is a restriction. Most people don't want to be oggled at by strangers. That's why breasts seem rude - they turn men on. That's why it's become the norm to cover them up. Mens chests just don't seem as rude, because they don't have the same sexual associations.

I think you (and Andrew Mcloed) are seeing a harmful inequality where the source of the inequality is just that women have breasts and men don't. It's nothing to do with oppression or restriction, it's to do with breasts being a sexual bit of the body and us covering those bits up to those we're not intimate with. That's just how we roll, and I don't see anything wrong with it.

In reply to Alun:



I think people on here who get really wound up about it probably just need to get over themselves and stop looking for things to complain about. Even if you think someone's just posing, that's their problem and not yours.

On the other hand, I can definitely see why a wall would care about the impression they make on first-timers, and worry that if it's full of stacked shirtless blokes doing feet-off laps of the circuit wall then that impression will be "serious training for serious hardmen, not somewhere for fat punters like you to mess around enjoying yourselves", and decide that banning shirtless climbing is a better compromise than banning feet-off laps of the circuit wall.

In reply to Ramblin dave:


Excellent point.

In reply to cb_6:


No, I think it's just a social result of the biology of how womens and mens sex drives are wired.


That's true, but you're conflating the issue with the "double standard" about breasts/chests which is a different thing.

In reply to Neil Williams:


Fashion and or comfort.
jk

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Arguably what we experience as sexual is driven by the details of these social norms... There are societies where toplessness is the norm. There are situations where toplessness is suddenly considered acceptable (e.g. breastfeeding, French beaches) and the 'sexual' nature of breasts is no longer a problem.

There are plenty of other parts of the female body that can cause sexual arousal, yet some are deemed fine to show (e.g. legs/cleavage/some bum). Because we are exposed to these more often they lose the fetishization of breasts, but if toplessness was more normal we might be able to cope with the occasional boob around without suddenly losing the power to operate as adults?

The most dangerous line of argument would be that women should hide their bodies because they are sexual. That leads to blaming the victim (because men can't help themselves?), women covering their bodies...

I will agree that it is not the biggest issue facing women, but it is still a double standard.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Excellent - completely agreed. I couldn't care less. Climb and be happy.

In reply to andrewmcleod:


All true, but there's no case there for there being a harmful inequality. The details of these norms are what they are, for whatever reason, and unless they're causing harm, what's the issue?


Personally, I think that the 'rudeness' of breasts is more deeply wired than social 'fetishisation' (and that's still consistent with everything above) but neither of us can prove the case.


Well, we all hide our bodies. Precisely which bits depends on our gender, because we have different bits to begin with. This "blaming the victim" stuff has no relevance here.


It would be a double standard if men and women were the same. They're not, for example, women have breasts.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

And there is the other side - in a lot of places (other than those where practicality wins out, such as cycling) it is frowned upon for men to wear very tight shorts, because unlike women that shows their "bits" off.

It goes both ways, just with different body parts.

Neil

In reply to Jon Stewart:


I'm not convinced, I think it's far more context sensitive than you're making out. Go somewhere where toplessness or nudity is common or even the norm, a European beach or sauna for example and in no time at all it's no more exciting than somewhere where more prudish dress codes are the norm. Perhaps even the opposite, where there are prudish norms that are broadly adhered to then any deviation from that norm becomes much more exciting than where there is no strong convention and people just wear what they're comfortable in. Broken taboos are far more exciting than a bit of flesh.

jk

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Other societies make the same argument about all parts of women's bodies - hence we have burkas and niqabs. I really think we should be avoiding the "women should cover up because men can't control themselves" line of argument.

In reply to jkarran:


But why do you have to go to certain, very specific, contexts like a beach or sauna before 'baps out' becomes normal? Over there on the continent, it's still totally unacceptable to get them out on the high street.

Completely different cultures might take a completely different view to nudity of course, but I don't think it's random.

In reply to BarrySW19:


That isn't the line of argument. The statement of fact is that the social norm is for breasts to be covered in public, and the explanation offered is that we cover up bits we find sexual.

Covering your breasts does not put you at a disadvantage. Covering your face on the other hand makes it impossible to interact properly and ensures you will remain a second-class citizen. Oppression is not about being treated differently, it's about being treated badly.

In reply to JIMBO:


Think of the planet. Air con is evil.

In reply to Timmd:
There are the kinds of place where it's a bit impractical not to have it, though, and big tin buildings with climbing walls in them are one example.

I personally think a rethink on office buildings would be a bigger save in that sense. Stop building greenhouses with no opening windows.

FWIW, in moving vehicles, adding aircon is said to have a lesser fuel penalty than the air resistence from opening windows. That's one reason why near enough all new trains have it.

Neil

In reply to Jon Stewart:


It's clear that enlarged breasts in female humans have evolved as a sexual signalling device, since they are bulked out by fatty tissue and are a lot larger than needed for lactation (which is apparent if you compare with the equivalent on cats or dogs).

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Maybe we find the bits that are normally covered up sexual. The very covering up is the thing that makes them seem sexual. Just look at other cultures, where it's normal to walk around with your breasts out, or cultures that cover different body parts (hair, face, legs, arms).

You say it isn't a disadvantage. You've obviously never accidentally gone out climbing wearing a long sleeved dark top, when it has turned into a scorcher of a day. I've frequently ended up in just my bra in remote locations, keeping half an eye open in case someone comes along and I accidentally offend them. There is also the matter of wanting to change clothes if they are wet. I've perfected the art of changing tops a la mr. bean to avoid showing any flesh.

But more than that is the irksome business of being told that I have to adhere to different codes than you do, no matter what I would personally prefer, just because I am a woman. You are telling me that this isn't oppression, from the position of having the free choice yourself. Thanks - that's very kind of you.

I remember my teachers striking because they weren't allowed to wear trousers to work. Once they had won the right, many of them carried on wearing skirts, because they were used to it, but it was the principle that they fought for.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Should we hide our hip to waist ratio, just in case it offends someone?

In reply to Neil Williams:


Mythbusters did that one a while ago - aircon used far more fuel than open windows.

In reply to tlm:

What is the punishment for changing a top and risking a flash of boob? Or climbing in a bra?

You can say that the codes are different in a climbing wall if you like, but I think the codes are equal but the bodies different.

In reply to tlm:


Exactly.


I took my top off while climbing at the wall yesterday while I was the only one there. Someone else arrived and I suddenly felt incredibly self conscious. Put my top on, sweated all over it, stunk in the pub after. Thanks UKC, I think you've ruined my life

In reply to Jon Stewart:


So use the comparison of those societies which insist women cover their hair then. My point is still valid. Requiring women to cover up any body part all stems from the mentality that women are to blame for whatever actions men take when they see whichever female part on display.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Look Jon, I just DON'T LIKE BEING TOLD WHAT TO DO!!!!!!!

*flaps hands at face in a fluster*

(aren't all climbers like this? I'm sure they used to be?)

In reply to tlm:

I can't find a neat summary of different cultural attitudes to nudity, but I doubt very much that which body parts are covered and which are on show is random across all cultures, just open to the whim of baseless social conditioning.

Instead, I would expect to find that people near-universally cover up their genitals, often cover up their tits, and very rarely cover things like feet or elbows for reasons of social taboo only.

There's something a whole lot more innate about tits being a turn on than the fact that we (for no reason at all?) decided at some point that they should be generally covered up in public. I don't find the idea that what turns us on is purely at the mercy of social norms at all compelling (for reasons you might be able to guess).


You talk about people 'being offended' but that isn't what it's about. Most men, I'm quite sure, would be far more offended by the sight of some massive hairy moobs swinging and flapping around the bouldering wall than a pair of nice pert tits. However, getting your sexual bits out in public is taboo, and the sight of the nice pert tits, while not offensive, would cause something of a stir (you could say). I doubt the wall's owners would like either much, but a tits-out bouldering wall would probably not end up being a paradise of liberation from gender stereotypes.


Well no actually, I don't have the choice of getting my tits out in public.


But campaigning for tits-out wherever you like is a false idea of equality. You may as well campaign for urinals in the ladies.

In reply to BarrySW19:


Would you say that the very similar if somewhat more relaxed prescriptions on which body parts men can display in most contexts (ie bare chests are a bit indecorous, arses and upper thighs are decidedly risque and knobs and balls are flat out indecent) down to the same mentality? Or something parallel but different?

I'm genuinely not completely sure what I think about all this, so I'm reading with interest...

In reply to BarrySW19:


So what are the implications of the requirement on me to keep my cock inside my trousers? It isn't just women who are required to cover up, you know.

Professor Hubert Farnsworth: [explaining why palm trees are used as Xmas trees] Pine trees have been extinct for 800 years, Fry. Gone the way of the poodle and your primitive notions of modesty.
[disrobes, standing completely naked]
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: Ah. Brisk.

In reply to Ramblin dave:


Something parallel but different, I think. In the case of men displaying genitals the reasoning is that it causes offence to others, while a woman displaying certain body parts is seen as causing either offence or arousal. In both cases society is restricting the actions of the individual based on the interpretative response of others, which doesn't really seem to be correctly allocating responsibility for the situation.

However, society is what it is and a bit of logic isn't going to change that. It's just common sense - in the Roman meaning of the term.

I knew having a psychology degree would come in useful one day, I just didn't think it would be on a climbing forum.

In reply to AlanLittle:

I disagree. Like everything in life, people should try to be considerate to others and other groups. Indoors climbing is neither an 'adult sporting activity' nor one for children - it's for all.

To be honest, some people just get away with it just because everyone else is respectful. If everyone was behaving in the same way believe me it would have been a bigger issue.

Just out of curiosity - why is it such a big deal for someone who walks into the climbing centre to get changed in the changing rooms (which are by the way near the entrance and on the way to the wall) and instead has to do it in public at the wall? I don't get it - even if it only makes a few people uncomfortable (eg say young girls), why do it? There is no reason whatsoever I can see and it only makes some others feel a bit more uncomfortable and little less welcome.

Business owners try to make their businesses as inclusive as possible to all groups - that's how they maximise everyone's enjoyment and that's how they make money. Am I seriously to believe that someone will give up climbing because they're not allowed to strip by the walls or even climb without a shirt on?

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I agree with you that boobs are secondary sexual characteristics and that they are a sexual turn on. I have no disagreement with you about that at all.

The thing that I disagree with you about is your leap from that to the idea that this means that they should be hidden in public. This seems inconsistent with other things that you have said.

1. You don't appear to think that this should be done for other secondary sexual characteristics that turn men on.

2. You are aware that breasts aren't covered in all cultures or indeed in all social situations and the ones that it doesn't happen in don't have problems.

3. You are aware that other cultures and other historical periods choose to cover up different secondary sexual characteristics and you don't agree that this should be universal.

As to the reaction that my breasts might cause in public, I'm not so sure that I would describe it as a stir, but more of a tidal wave, with dangers of people being knocked out. I don't think pert enters in to it at all.

In reply to Simos:


Is it older people doing it? I think part of it is just historical, from when walls didn't have exciting things like changing rooms. It used to be quite common at one time.

In reply to tlm:

Have you ever thought of becoming a comedian, that's two of your posts that have had me laughing.

I don't get how some people take so much offense that they feel the need to say something. From the other side, I always feel awkward around women breast feeding but I've never thought "oh I should tell her to cover up or go complain to someone".

In fact I've never heard anyone complain about public breast feeding, shirtless men etc except for on here. Would love to know who all these easily offended people are.

In reply to permanenttrauma:

Try Mumsnet and come back and report on the views expressed there. I imagine they would be far more, shall we say, puritanical than even here.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

Thinking about it, bouldering in budgie smugglers would be pretty practical. Would anyone mind?

I'll keep my top on to spare you from the sight of my moobs.

In reply to tlm:

A lovely post!


I don't have a particular thing about it being 'right' for breasts to be covered, I'm just perfectly relaxed about the status quo in which it's a total no-no to get them out in the bouldering wall. That social taboo is just how we treat tits in our culture, and I don't think it's inequality or a double standard or anything like that. Just a simple, apolitical, uncontroversial fact of life that round here, breasts are too rude for the climbing wall.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Pish...

In reply to Jon Stewart:


But these things aren't static over time, or culture. They morph and change. You say that breasts are 'rude' but you don't seem to recognise that your perception of 'rudeness' isn't just a fixed, objective fact. It's a perception, influenced by your culture. If you were put into a different culture, it would probably only take about 3 days for you to not blink at a boob (going by what happens on holidays where toplessness is common).

You say that you aren't bothered one way or the other, and that you are happy to accept it. So why are you bothered if the people it affects express an opinion about it one way or another?

In reply to permanenttrauma:



There was a thread a few years ago now about public breastfeeding and some posters were very anti-, including a couple of women.

For me this is actually one of the biggest and saddest side effects of the over-sexualization of female breasts - the negative impact on breastfeeding rates, especially among younger mums.

In reply to Alyson & Neil:

It's a shame when social norms and fear of offending have an impact on health and mental well being. I'm surprised more people aren't for changing attitudes.

In reply to permanenttrauma:

But changing attitudes isn't something a climbing wall business can afford to do. It has to pander to its customer base or it won't have a customer base.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

Very true, but with that collective attitude (not saying yours) then nothing will ever change. I would love to know how much tops on/off affects a wall. Is this argument purely speculative or is there an owner somewhere who noticed X increase in sales when they banned shirtless guys?

In reply to permanenttrauma:

I don't know, but Big Rock originally did allow it and banned it following complaints from parents.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

That is interesting. Can assume they had enough complaints then to change their policy.

In reply to tlm:


I said specifically that they were 'rude' *in our culture*. I'm quite happy for breasts to lose their rudeness over time, if that's how things pan out. But since I don't think it matters either way, I don't see the point in trying to force culture in that direction. I just can't see this pain, misery and oppression of having to wear, say, a bikini top or sports bra at the climbing wall...but what would I know I suppose - maybe it's awful?


What bothers me (well, what I'm arguing against, anyway) is the false idea of double-standards or inequality. As I said, do you want urinals in the ladies and for the facilities to stink of piss, in the name of equality, or are you happy to accept that piss-stinky stand-up wee pots and troughs are another way in which our culture treats men and women differently because of their different anatomies?

In reply to Dandan:


Liking it! But I think the tape would get caught up in my chest rug

In reply to djwilse:

Agree. Not necessary to climb half clothed. And not remotely attractive. I appreciate the main reason people do it is to keep cool,but if you wear appropriate clothing you can still do this without dripping your sweat on anyone. Please retain your dignity if only for the comfort of others.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


I understand what you are saying. For me, an example would be that women carry babies in their wombs, and would men wearing a pregnancy suit make things equal? Of course not!

Toilets - why even have separate ones at all? We don't in our house, they don't in lots of small cafes, it would sort out any inequalities in stinkyness and also in queueing. I have a shared loo at my work and have no problem with it, why do we segregate at all?

You seem to generate separateness and different standards where i see no need for them. But i do understand that different people are different, so i'm happy for you to think that way.