UKC

GROUP TEST: Trad Quickdraws

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 UKC Gear 24 Sep 2014
Comparative QD review montage, 4 kbOne piece of gear that you can never do without when roped climbing is a quickdraw. In this comparative review, Alan James takes a detailed look at lightweight trad quick draws aimed specifically at trad climbing.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=6637
 beardy mike 24 Sep 2014
In reply to UKC Gear:
Just wanted to point out in one of the first paragraghs you have a somewhat misleading statement. Karabiners are theredays usaually hot forged from extruded roundbar stock which has been bent to shape to provide a blank. You cannot extrude during a hotforging process. Furthermore both extrusion and hot forging do not stress relieve anything - quite the opposite infact. That comes from a heat treatment process after the biners have been forged, by annealing the material (usually taking it from a t6 condtion in which its supplied to an o condition and then back to the T6 condition). Annealing rearranged the crystal structures within the metal, and where they have been compressed during forging, any residual tension within the metal from that compression can be relieved. This is especially at corners where the extruded stock has inittially been bent, inducing high stress as the metal on the outside of the bend is stretched an compressed on the inside. This further compounded during forging as these areas tend to be of high profile, meaning that futher distortion of the metal occurs. Annealing removes these stresses. Retreating the material then brings it back to a stronger ultimate tensile strength, often double that of the annealed raw state of the material. Might be a bit technical for some, but I felt it important to explain so that people don't get the wrong end of the stick and somehow think the crabs get like that by extrusion, which is a linear process only and can merely give a 2d profile along the length of the material.
Post edited at 10:14
1
In reply to UKC Gear: You don't get off to an auspicious start do you?

> One piece of gear that you can never do without when roped climbing is a quickdraw.

That is the most spurious and downright incorrect statement I've read on here for a long time, as anyone with the slightest appreciation of climbing history would know. [The only piece of gear that you can NEVER do without when roped climbing is the ROPE, everything else is optional.]

Quickdraws did not become a default part of a rack until the late 1980's or early 1990s. They are very much a newcomer to climbing whose introduction followed on from the move away from using smaller hexes and nuts on cord towards mainly or solely using nuts on wire. They are still by no means essential.

Just to be clear on this, I still occasionally go roped climbing without carrying a single quickdraw and I would be very surprised if I was the only person to do so.
1
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

An essential point. I am very glad you made that since it really contributes to the article and is very helpful.

I think we will leave the text as it is though.

Alan
 Brian Phillips 24 Sep 2014
In reply to UKC Gear:

"One piece of gear that you can never do without..." ?? Most trad climbers I know carry alpine draws (60cm slings doubled) and no draws at all. Draws are primarily for sport climbing. Sounds like the gear manufacturers are just trying to sell more gear.
 Wft 24 Sep 2014
In reply to Brian Phillips:

>Draws are primarily for sport climbing. Sounds like the gear manufacturers are just trying to sell more gear.

Are you being serious?

 Stevie989 24 Sep 2014
In reply to GuyVG:

I think it all depends - mountain routes - almost all Slingdraws. Shorter quarried crags et both but I'll use a lot more quickdraws, don't want to be hitting the deck
 danm 24 Sep 2014
In reply to GuyVG:

No, he's being American

I tend to carry a couple of slingdraw at least, even on the grit, but I take a few std trad draws like these even in winter.

Love your reply to the Engineer, Alan!
 Richard Baynes 24 Sep 2014
>What Brian and TEE said, was more or less my automatic reaction.
Quickdraws (and I have to say the gun-slinger name seems a bit inane to me)are what we're sold because manufacturers have decided wire-swaged nuts are all we can be trusted with. I certainly started climbing without them, and still have nuts that don't always need them cos they're on rope. It's partly a weight thing - one nut, one piece of rope and one crab, as opposed to nut, wire, nylon sling and two crabs.
And Alan's was-it-sarcastic response was just plain silly - he should know better than to make a daft statement that quickdraws are essential. Yes, maybe change the wording.
1
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Restrained!
 planetmarshall 24 Sep 2014
In reply to Brian Phillips:

> Sounds like the gear manufacturers are just trying to sell more gear.

God forbid that gear manufacturers should try to sell more gear. It's like Tesco trying to sell more groceries.

 AlanLittle 24 Sep 2014
In reply to Brian Phillips:

I thought slingdraws were very much an American thing related to their bizarre practice of doing multipitch trad routes on single ropes. And they are horribly fiddly to use. I hates 'em.

I did a trad coaching session with Calum Muskett last year and he was very much in favour of mostly short QDs for trad, with maybe a few longer ones, his argmuent being that proper use of half ropes solves most of the problems for which the single rope user needs sling-draws etc.

Also, as E-E and others pointed out, nothing was ever wrong with with larger (say Rock 6/7 upwards) nuts on cord, and I don't see that the shift to everything on wire with quickdraws has brought any benefits.
In reply to Richard Baynes:
While writing this review I visited Stanage on a busy weekend a few weeks ago. I was interested to see what other people were using for quickdraws since I had seven different brands with me. I check everyone's harness and they all had quickdraws on them.

They tend to be required by most climbers to clip wires with and I have certainly been using them for trad climbing since they first appeared in the early 1980s. I can't recall ever going trad climbing with anyone in the intervening 30 years who didn't have quickdraws as part of their trad rack apart from some nutters who used to use double krabs clipped together back in the 1980s because they "didn't think slings were strong enough". I hope they never managed to twist their gear out or twist-unclip the rope which is of course what can happen when you use single or double krabs.

I consider sling draws as quickdraws as well. I always carry 2 or 3 of these and they are a good solution for extension slings however you don't see them being carried by many people.

Based on this I made the (rash!) assumption that they are carried by people when trad climbing and used that line to introduce the review. It doesn't really change the focus of the review and if you don't use quickdraws then I suggest you don't read it (I am quite interested to know how you clip your wires though).

Alan
Post edited at 13:51
 Phil79 24 Sep 2014
In reply to UKC Gear:

Jesus, what a bunch of nitpicking and pedantic replies above!

Ok, fair enough, quick draws aren't 'essential' equipment, and we can all get by on hemp woven rope, a pebbles and lengths of cord blah blah blah. But as 99% of uk climbers use QDs all the time, then I would think this review is pretty bloody useful.
 Coel Hellier 24 Sep 2014
In reply to AlanLittle:
> I did a trad coaching session with Calum Muskett last year and he was very much in favour of mostly short QDs for trad, with maybe a
> few longer ones, his argmuent being that proper use of half ropes solves most of the problems for which the single rope user needs sling-draws etc.

Agreed, a mixture of 10cm draws, some 20cm draws and some sling-draws is best for trad (in different ratios depending on the crag).

In reply to Brian Phillips:

> I know carry alpine draws (60cm slings doubled) ...

Continuing the ultra-picky theme of the thread , aren't alpine draws tripled, not doubled?
Post edited at 14:12
 GridNorth 24 Sep 2014
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

I think it's the use of the word "Quick Draw" that raises a few peoples hackles. Quick Draw is a very sport orientated description and if I remember correctly only became common at the time that sports climbing caught on. It also sounds like an Americanism but not sure if it is. Prior to that us old lags called them extenders.
 TobyA 24 Sep 2014
In reply to GridNorth:

They've been called quickdraws as much as extenders in my time climbing (close to 25 yrs!) and (of course) have been perfectly normal in trad climbing during all that time. I doubt many people who have started climbing since, say, 1990 would not have used QDs from very early on in their climbing.

Of course you COULD design a rack based on gear that doesn't really need quickdraws (Tom and Pete said they did their recent Brown-Whillans challenge with just cams) but not many UK climbers would climb with out some nuts, in which case you're making life hard for yourself not to have a few QDs along with you.
 Ciro 24 Sep 2014
In reply to UKC Gear:

Good review, thanks.

I have a set of the Camp Nanos, although they have an open sling with a rubber band retainer which I guess was the original design? I notice from the camp website they've now added a rubber retainer to the sewn dogbone so I guess they noted the problem.

I like them and they'd probably be my go-to trad draw apart from the fact that the sling is a bit too short for anything that's not straight up and down (or perhaps because my double rope work isn't good enough before anyone says it, but I am where I am . Keep meaning to get round to extending them... does anyone have any experience of a longer skinny dogbone that works well with the nano carabiners?
 climbwhenready 24 Sep 2014
In reply to UKC Gear:

Thank you for this review of this essential part of a trad rack.

I wonder, is there a trend for gate open strength to be at least 9 kN for krabs new onto the market? I was surprised that so many of the QDs had a gate open strength of 7 kN; I thought everyone was beefing that up or they give a competitive advantage to those companies that do. Personally, I make sure all my karabiners have a gate open strength of 9 kN because I can, so why not?
 Martin Hore 24 Sep 2014
In reply to UKC Gear:

Well, I learnt a few useful things from the article, such as checking my wire-gates still snag on the hook, but I can't remember ever buying a "trad quickdraw" and I doubt I'll be buying any of those advertised in the article. With very few exceptions they are too short IMO, and they all have captive krabs. They all look like sport draws to me.

Almost invariably I create my trad draws from two wiregates and a separate tape sling - 17-20cm for my short ones, 30cm for my long ones and 60cm (trebled) for my "Alpine" ones. I have just a couple of 10cm ones which only come out on straight gritstone cracks.

Not having captive krabs gives me greater flexibility in both senses. Once placed, the draws have more freedom to move without lifting the gear - which also creates less rope drag - and I can quickly detach both karabiners from my unused draws if I need to use them with belay anchors at the next stance (I only carry a couple of screwgates).

All the illustrations are on straight grit cracks, where I can see the value of shorter draws. In most other circumstances I'd prefer to stick with my longer ones thank you. For me the extra few cm of potential fall is amply offset by the reduced rope drag on long pitches and reduced chance of nuts lifting out - (Until of course I just hit the ledge that I would have just missed with a shorter draw in place..... It hasn't happened yet though - I try not to fall too often).

Martin
 orcnys 24 Sep 2014
In reply to UKC Gear:

Thanks God somebody looked at this important issue, I was getting worried.
In reply to Ciro:

> Good review, thanks.

> I have a set of the Camp Nanos, although they have an open sling with a rubber band retainer which I guess was the original design? I notice from the camp website they've now added a rubber retainer to the sewn dogbone so I guess they noted the problem.

I'll contact CAMP and see if this is standard. It would improve them.

Alan
In reply to climbwhenready:

> I wonder, is there a trend for gate open strength to be at least 9 kN for krabs new onto the market? I was surprised that so many of the QDs had a gate open strength of 7 kN; I thought everyone was beefing that up or they give a competitive advantage to those companies that do. Personally, I make sure all my karabiners have a gate open strength of 9 kN because I can, so why not?

I think that many of the krabs featured in this review have been designed to push the weight saving since they come in at around 23g to 28g or so for most of them. If someone could design a 23g krab with a gate open of 9kN then I am sure they would do, but for most of these the 23g is the target.

Alan
 climbwhenready 24 Sep 2014
In reply to Martin Hore:

You can buy longer ones...

I think most of the quickdraws reviewed only have a captive krab at the rope end, not at the gear end - however, on the very short (and hence not very trad!) versions pictured, the stitching holding the webbing closed almost comes up to that point making it appear captive. Get a 30cm quickdraw and that's no longer the case.
In reply to Martin Hore:

> Well, I learnt a few useful things from the article, such as checking my wire-gates still snag on the hook, but I can't remember ever buying a "trad quickdraw" and I doubt I'll be buying any of those advertised in the article. With very few exceptions they are too short IMO, and they all have captive krabs. They all look like sport draws to me.

If you check the table at the bottom then many of them come with longer options.

Alan
 climbwhenready 24 Sep 2014
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

The Phantom? 28g, but still...

But I get it, they're competing on grams, not strength.
 Merlin 24 Sep 2014
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Ha! Well Said!

Useful article, which doesn't seem to have been done before.
 John2 24 Sep 2014
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

'Quickdraws did not become a default part of a rack until the late 1980's or early 1990s'

I started climbing in 1983, and used quickdraws from day 1 as did everyone I climbed with.
 JR 24 Sep 2014
In reply to Martin Hore:
> I can't remember ever buying a "trad quickdraw"

I have a rack of sport draws and a rack of trad draws - all the trad draws are phantoms of different lengths (+ carry a couple of short slings with single biners) which makes a huge weight difference. Surprised not to see the phantoms in the review Alan?

On sport, lighter draws are too tricky to clip as they get blown about and aren't as ergonomic. Why make life difficult, when sport climbing at your limit is hard enough as it is?

Some of the comments on this thread epitomise the reason why many people are put off UKC forums!
Post edited at 16:26
 JR 24 Sep 2014
In reply to John2:
> 'Quickdraws did not become a default part of a rack until the late 1980's or early 1990s'

We're much closer to 2030 than 1990, who knows what will be default be then... but you can guarantee there'll still be people saying rocks on rope are better...
Post edited at 16:38
 jonnie3430 24 Sep 2014
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

> While writing this review I visited Stanage on a busy weekend a few weeks ago. I was interested to see what other people were using for quickdraws since I had seven different brands with me. I check everyone's harness and they all had quickdraws on them.

And here we find the major fault with UKC. Someone visits Stanage, the beginners crag of the UK and thinks that what they see is correct. If Stanage was a little bit longer, maybe 100m, then quickdraws may get longer too....
2
 Richard Baynes 24 Sep 2014
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Of course I use extenders of varying sorts on the wires which now make up the bulk of my rack. Some of them are quickdraws, more are what I think people are referring to as slingdraws, tripled-over short slings, which I find for what I do are superior in being more versatile.
But the universal wire-and-quickdraw system in my opinion is heavier than having say seven or eight larger nuts on rope on their single crabs, and smaller wires in a bunch with say four-five slingdraws.
Don't get me started on cams ...
I think what I and others were saying is hang on, don't let's assume this heavy wire-and-quickdraw system is just universal as it is possible to lessen their use.
1
 Ben1983 24 Sep 2014
In reply to UKC Gear:

Just a few comments on the basis for comparison on this useful article:
1.The weight vs strength thing is extremely useful. Thanks.
2.I kind of like the open hook. Perhaps because of my general incompetence, I have often looked down to see a wire trapped between the hook and the gate. I suspect without the open hook, I'd look down to not see a wire at all.
3.As much as it isn't 'allowed', quite a lot of trad climbers end up using quickdraws to help set up the belay, which raises another set of attributes viz. How well does a clove hitch sit on the krab, can you fit two on, and how well do the krabs stack when reversed? The size of the krab can also an issue in complex opposing-gear placements, or winter climbing in general since you need to use them with gloves on.
4. Durability of the sling. Trad draws are often unavoidably placed around corners, which might be sharp. As I understand it, nylon is better at coping with this than dyneema, but I could be wrong.. Incidentally, this is also a good reason to mix up the size and shape of krabs on your rack to increase versatility.
In reply to John Roberts (JR):

> Surprised not to see the phantoms in the review Alan?

Quite a few of the manufacturers have several options - Wild Country have the Helium and the Nitro, DMM have the Alpha Light as well as the Phantoms, Edelrid have the 19G Set. We decided to stick to one per manufacturer.

Alan
In reply to Ben1983:

> 2.I kind of like the open hook. Perhaps because of my general incompetence, I have often looked down to see a wire trapped between the hook and the gate. I suspect without the open hook, I'd look down to not see a wire at all.

Interesting comment. I had never really though about it like that. Clean nose krabs were mainly designed for sport climbing I think but I do find them useful for trad. The scenario you mention is one where the hook nose might benefit you, but you could also have a grip clip where the wire gets suck in the hook effectively reducing the krab to open-gate strength only. Could be dodgy if you didn't spot it and lobbed.

> 3.As much as it isn't 'allowed', quite a lot of trad climbers end up using quickdraws to help set up the belay, which raises another set of attributes viz. How well does a clove hitch sit on the krab, can you fit two on, and how well do the krabs stack when reversed? The size of the krab can also an issue in complex opposing-gear placements, or winter climbing in general since you need to use them with gloves on.

I would say that you are suggesting a more 'all-round' approach to your rack here, in which case a slightly larger QD like a WC Helium, or DMM Phantom might be a better bet. I think the person after super-lightweight is more interested in getting up the pitch than the awkwardness of tying into the krabs when setting up the belay.

> 4. Durability of the sling. Trad draws are often unavoidably placed around corners, which might be sharp. As I understand it, nylon is better at coping with this than dyneema, but I could be wrong.. Incidentally, this is also a good reason to mix up the size and shape of krabs on your rack to increase versatility.

I agree with your mix and match suggestion. I think this is extremely useful for making sure that your krab doesn't bend over edges.

Alan
 popebenedictus 24 Sep 2014
In reply to UKC Gear:

Personally I'd say 4 of the 7 items reviewed are too short to be trad specific draws. I had a rack of 12cm, 18cm and 25cm DMM alphas (and 3-4 60cm slingdraws) but had shelved the 12's for trad as the extra few cm mean less chance of gear lifting out/rope drag etc. Having recently had all my gear stolen I won't be buying any short draws when I replace my draws.
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

> I'll contact CAMP and see if this is standard. It would improve them.


Interesting coincidence... I today received CAMP's 2015 Workbook. The new "Nano 22 Express KS" does have a rubber retainer, which they fancily called Karstop EVO. This is becoming standard across most CAMP's quickdraw models.

However, this review is very useful regardless. New models (not just CAMP's) won't make it to the shops until next April or thereabouts anyway.

The Karstop retainer, btw, is a little different from other rubber retainers in that, as I understand it, it can't be removed/moved, it's embedded with the dogbone, if that makes sense, hence it can't be misused either. It first appeared at last year's (2013) OutDoor if I remember correctly.

CAMP markets the same 11 mm dyneema dogbone with the KS retainer used with the Nano in different lengths too, 15 cm and 20 cm.

Obviously CAMP's not the only brand with these kind of dogbones in their catalogue. At first look, DMM's are not that different for example. There's loads out there...

Nic
 Wil Treasure 24 Sep 2014
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

> ... you could also have a grip clip where the wire gets stuck in the hook effectively reducing the krab to open-gate strength only. Could be dodgy if you didn't spot it and lobbed.

I've never had an issue with a clean nose krab unclipping, but have had issues with the nose on a hooked nose one catching.

Black Diamond did some testing here: http://eu.blackdiamondequipment.com/en/qc-lab-weakness-of-nosehooked-carabi... It's a lot worse than gate open strength if the nose catches, since it's loaded away from the spine.
 FreshSlate 24 Sep 2014
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

> Interesting comment. I had never really though about it like that. Clean nose krabs were mainly designed for sport climbing I think but I do find them useful for trad. The scenario you mention is one where the hook nose might benefit you, but you could also have a grip clip where the wire gets suck in the hook effectively reducing the krab to open-gate strength only. Could be dodgy if you didn't spot it and lobbed.

It's actually much worse than open gate because you are loading the biner at the nose.
 BnB 25 Sep 2014
In reply to popebenedictus:

I use my 12cms for the first piece of gear if it is near the ground and for bomber straight up and down wires. Who doesn't want to minimise fall distance?
 wbo 25 Sep 2014
In reply to UKC Gear:
I just go climbing and use the same draws for both. I don't seem to have died yet. Some people get far too het up around this stuff.
I use the Petzl Ange S's and some Black Diamond ones and don't have a preference, they're both pretty good to use. For me they are cheaper than the Wild Country and DMM equivalents. When you pick up 10 or 12 of them the weight difference from ye oldee stylee draws is fantastic
 Damo 25 Sep 2014
In reply to TobyA:

> They've been called quickdraws as much as extenders in my time climbing (close to 25 yrs!) and (of course) have been perfectly normal in trad climbing during all that time. I doubt many people who have started climbing since, say, 1990 would not have used QDs from very early on in their climbing.

I started climbing here in Australia in 1992 and the stitched quickdraws were still a bit rare and very much associated with sport climbing. Many people used short open slings or doubled longer slings, as back then most climbers still climbed what has come to be known as 'trad' and slings were considered best for that.

I remember buying several pink and blue Petzl draws - just the webbing, not the biners, as they weren't sold as a set of three items here - and they were quite fancy and expensive. I only recently got rid of them as although they seemed in good nick, RopeTestLab (Richard Delaney) did some tests on the same item of around the same age (10+yrs) and they broke at considerably under the rating.

It's only in the last 15 years here that buying sets of complete 'quickdraws' has become common, mainly due to increased affordability for climbers (exchange rate, economy, internet etc).

The thickness and stiffness of the stitched quickdraw webbing makes them easier to use that section like a handle to clip ringbolts by pushing the biner against the bolt. If you're clipping a wire loop or loose Australian-style bolt plate then it's not so useful, they offer no resistance like a bolt does, and you are forced to hold the biner itself and insert the nose.
 Brown 25 Sep 2014
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Its a shame you missed the 19G Set as they are possibly the ones most in need of a review being a bid different to the normal run of the mill.

I got two for a trip to Patagonia to see what they were like. Since then they have been used for trad, sport and alpine climbing including whilst wearing gloves and I cannot rate them highly enough.

When I have the money I will be replacing most of the remaining quickdraws with them.
In reply to Brown:

> Its a shame you missed the 19G Set as they are possibly the ones most in need of a review being a bid different to the normal run of the mill.

It was up to Edelrid in what they sent us for the review.

Alan
 Morgan Woods 25 Sep 2014
In reply to jonnie3430:

> And here we find the major fault with UKC. Someone visits Stanage, the beginners crag of the UK and thinks that what they see is correct. If Stanage was a little bit longer, maybe 100m, then quickdraws may get longer too....

Do you mean longer or taller? I wouldn't want someone reading your post and thinking what they read is correct.

:p
 ColdWill 25 Sep 2014
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Yep the 19G and those Metolius FS minis are the most interesting draws at the moment.
> It was up to Edelrid in what they sent us for the review.

Mmm... that's interesting actually. So, do you mean you asked them to send you a "trad quickdraw" and that was their own, presumably, "top" choice?

I'm even more intrigued by AustriAlpin choice then. I would have thought their Micro wire sets would be a more suitable trad quickdraw. Btw, the Rockit wire set does exist with longer dogbone too (17 cm).

If that's what was asked of the manufacturers, then only DMM and Wild Country got it right!
 TobyA 25 Sep 2014
In reply to ColdWill:

The 19Gs are amazingly light but they are tiny. I find them tricky to clip with gloves on for example. I use mine now when I'm really bothered about minimising weight but most bigger wiregates are easier to clip, so if you know the climbing is going to be hard, I'd probably favour slightly bigger krabs.
 ColdWill 27 Sep 2014
In reply to TobyA:

Totally agree with the idea but have not used them yet. Big classic alpine routes and moderate classics are the logical terrain. But I remember when the 30g size krabs first came out people complained about the size.
 TobyA 27 Sep 2014
In reply to ColdWill:

They worked well on this route http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/stetinds-sydpilaren-south-p... but we didn't need gloves at all. They do look tiny, it's only psychological I guess but when you're doing a hard move you have to engage your rational brain to tell yourself that qd is strong enough (clip it to a single wire WC Ultralight Nut for maximum... uuummmm... inspiration)!
 lithos 27 Sep 2014
In reply to TobyA:

wow looks a brill route and great report... another for thr wishlist !
 TobyA 27 Sep 2014
In reply to lithos:

Cheers. This is my report from the whole trip http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/rock-climbing-in-arctic-nor... Stetind is superb but there are loads of other amazing routes to do in that area also.
 98%monkey 12 Oct 2014
In reply to UKC Gear:

I agree with the posts around making your own. 60cm sling and some sheep castration rings.

I have 2 draws on 120cm slings with revolvers which I've only used twice on sea cliffs, but they were very useful when I did use them.

 TobyA 12 Oct 2014
In reply to 98%monkey:

> 60cm sling and some sheep castration rings.

If you intend to triple them its a really bad idea a) because they never release neatly and b) because of the way that the krab can end up quite easily end up just coming off the sling completely vimeo.com/29836772

Slingdraws are great, but using them with rubber bands is a bad idea.

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