UKC

Yesterday I attended a First Aid at Work course, where the instructor confidently informed us that if we dial 112 (not 999) then the emergency services automatically get told where we are to within a 100m radius using the GPS on our phone. I am pretty sceptical of this. I can believe that they perhaps get the location of the mobile mast to which we are connected when making the call, but surely there isn't an automatic download of GPS coordinates? I can't see how it would happen from a technical / privacy point of view, but also it would mean that SARLOC - for example - was redundant, which I don't believe is the case.

So, does anyone definitively know what the emergency services do and don't receive when you make an emergency call?

In reply to haydn:

You can google this sort of stuff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/999_%28emergency_telephone_number%29#Location

They know the mobile mast, nothing more. Unless you have one of them new fangled smart phones with a specific app downloaded and installed, the article isn't clear about whether this will tell the emergency services automatically or if it just helps you to know so you can tell them accurately yourself.
Obviously they can trace a phone exactly as in crime dramas and spy thrillers but it's expensive and I would guess takes a bit of time.

In reply to henwardian:

I understood that 112 is redirected to the same call circuits as 999, and was only introduced to bring us in line with the rest of Europe with no intrinsic benefits (within the UK) of either number.

The location with either can only be located with respect to mobile masts, whilst Sarloc gets the phone to transmit its lat/long coordinates.

In reply to haydn:

I hope your instructor knew first aid better than he/she did about mobile phone location services.

In reply to GrahamD:


I was once told on a FAW course that paramedics did intracardicac adrenaline injections in cardiac arrest. 500 ml of the stuff, too. I think he's been watching too much pulp fiction.....

In reply to haydn:
You're right, mobile phones do not transmit their GPS position to 112 or any other number.

E112 is an enhanced version of the European 112 service whereby the cell-id is passed from caller to operator to responder. Your position from that will vary in usefulness, something like ~2 to 20 km accuracy, depending on how far out in the stix you are.

Galileo may be mandated to provide position to E112, its an on going discussion they are having.

In reply to Jonny2vests:

The phone network knows which mast(s) the phone is within range of and with what signal strength. In urban areas with dense coverage this can get you triangulated to within a couple of hundred of metres; in the mountains you might get accuracy to the nearest couple of hundred square miles, worst case if only one 2G mast can "see" you.

In reply to AlanLittle:

On the Carneddau, Ormes and at Holyhead I very often get "Welcome to Ireland" or "Enjoy the Isle of Man" messages (encouraging me to buy roaming data bundles) because the best signal strength is from masts across the sea. Could be interesting to see how long an Irish ambulance crew take to find Foel fras, but not if you're the casualty.

In reply to haydn:
AIUI it makes no difference what emergency number you call in the UK - 999 or 112 (some say phones also accept 911 as they might as well, though I haven't tried). It sends an "emergency call" whatever.

It's an incredibly common view, though, and those holding it seem rarely to be swayed from it even if it is completely illogical given that any number can be mapped to any number purely in software. Why would they *not* make 999 work the same?

Neil

Thanks everyone, it's good to know that technological progress hasn't leapt forward without me noticing.


In reply to GrahamD:

Indeed, this was my thought exactly! There were some dodgy comments about records retention in relation to accident forms too, but the actual first aid instruction matched everything I've been told before.

In reply to haydn:

A couple of years ago, Russ Hore from Ogwen Valley MRT developed SARLOC, an app that uses the smartphone's GPS to send more precise location information to rescue services. It's now used quite widely, and has repeatedly proven useful.

http://www.go4awalk.com/the-bunkhouse/walking-news-and-discussions/walking-...

I'd also recommend register-999. Initially designed for people expecting communication difficulties with spoken 999 services, a now-accepted use is by mountaineers requesting assistance when signal is intermittent or conditions preclude verbal exchanges.

http://www.emergencysms.org.uk

Dave

In reply to haydn:
As I do this for a living....
1)Mobile phone mast info is not guaranteed to be transmitted to the emergency services.
2) Mobile phone range is ~12-16 miles if the mast you're logged onto is configured for extended range. Mast normally have a 120degree sector arc so you can work out the size of the area a mast covers.
3) 911 may or may not work, it depends on the network operator as to whether or not they have set their networks up to accept it. There is no regulatory requirement for it to work.
4) be careful what you wish for with GPS location from smartphones - it takes time to get a fix from scratch, and GPS is power hungry. You could potentially have the scenario where trying to get a GPS position kills the battery and prevents further comms.

In reply to Ron Rees Davies:


I've had this exact situation in a real emergency - I was shorefishing in Alderney and saw a boat put up a distress flare. Called 112 and got French ringtone (France is only 8 miles away from Alderney). Didn't fancy trying to explain the situation in my schoolboy french, so quickly cleared down and called the local police non-emergency number and got them to pass the message onto the lifeboat .

In reply to David Bibby:

out of interest what is the 18000 number mentioned on the 999 text message page?

AIUI it makes no difference what emergency number you call in the UK - 999 or 112 (some say phones also accept 911 as they might as well, though I haven't tried). It sends an "emergency call" whatever.
It's an incredibly common view, though, and those holding it seem rarely to be swayed from it even if it is completely illogical given that any number can be mapped to any number purely in software. Why would they *not* make 999 work the same?

I guess part of the reason folk are sceptical is that UKC was telling folk to use 112 as it will go o the strongest network signal rather than your own. https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=67855 I have no clue if it is right though.

Al

In reply to haydn:

I have the following app on my iPhone - ukmapapp.com

The app allows maps in 250,000 down to 25,000 scales so as long as you can read a map accurately you will be able to give the emergency services an accurate Grid ref.

Additionally if a phone signal is very weak then the following will help -
youtube.com/watch?v=XPZv_8dABfU&

In reply to blurty:

That video is the source of much of the misunderstanding about 112 v 999

In reply to blurty:



.. .unless you are talking to MR (or coastguard) will they have a clue what you are talking about?

The OP's instructor is probably thinking of E911 in the US.

In reply to Mr Trebus:

Why would they *not* make 999 work the same?


112 will work on any network, but I'm pretty sure your phone won't disconnect from your network to use that of another operator just because that network has a stronger signal. 999 doesn't necessarily work the same as 112 as the receiving operators have different screens to see on their terminal depending on what sort of line the call originates from.

In reply to Toerag:

Mobile phones don't send 999, or 112, or 911 (which I'm told works, as it might as well) to the network. They send "emergency call". So far as I know, every instance of "emergency call" works the same, and can indeed pick up on any network if the home network's signal is unavailable.

Neil

In reply to d508934:

Not sure, but I think it is a textphone number for hearing-impaired people to access 999/112, i.e. like emergency SMS but for longer messages.

Dave

In reply to blurty:



Simplest app is 'Grid Reference'. It's available on Android, not sure about iPhone. Gives a whacking great 6 figure grid ref on the display, and allows a straight copy and paste into a text message. Very light on the battery as well.

However, as pointed out above, not much use if the operator doesn't understand grid refs or the system can't handle anything other than postcodes and street names.

On the subject of instructors talking nonsense, it's sadly all too common,regardless of the organisation doing the training.