UKC

Lundy - do you want to climb on brillo?

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 Dave Cundy 04 Oct 2014
I've just come back from Lundy, having wire brushed the Brillo from two good routes which had become wildly overgrown. I thought it would be universally appreciated but some people have said they prefer the Brillo. So I thought I'd canvas the opinion of UKC before continuing. Any thoughts folks?
 Derek Furze 04 Oct 2014
In reply to Mostro:

Did one or two 'brillo' plastered routes there a few years back. The covering made for a memorable experience without actually affecting the climbing much at all, whereas from below, the routes looked as if they might be very troublesome. I think it probably added to the adventurous feel of routes on Lundy - the routes were accessed by abseil and there was no easy way out. However, good effort doing the cleaning which was clearly well-intentioned. I guess the routes will return to a brillo state pretty quickly anyway, so everyone can take their choice
 scott titt 04 Oct 2014
In reply to Mostro:

Nearly all of Lundy is a SSSI, the climbing areas are designated for supralittoral rock habitat; wire brushing this habitat without a Natural England license is illegal, and risks severely impairing our good relationships on Lundy.
 Offwidth 04 Oct 2014
In reply to Mostro:

You are an idiot are you trying to lose us access to climbing there.
 Offwidth 04 Oct 2014
In reply to scott titt:

Beat me to it. I was about to edit my post saying why, realising an idiot probably wouldnt even realise what they have done wrong.
 Simon Caldwell 04 Oct 2014
In reply to scott titt:

Yet when someone cleaned Shark a few years ago they met with universal praise?
 Tom Valentine 04 Oct 2014
In reply to Mostro:
I won't criticise because a lot of exploration on Lundy and elsewhere wouldn't have been possible without some pretty severe cleaning.
I cleaned the top pitch of the Tempest before leading it, (not the first ascent but I reckon an early one)using the toilet brush from Old House South.
I imagine my favourite route on Lundy, The Ocean, will become unclimbable without fairly regular bouts of cleaning, so I think accusations of idiocy directed at you for your efforts are ill founded.

Out of interest, which routes did you wirebrush?
Post edited at 18:02
Lusk 04 Oct 2014
 Offwidth 04 Oct 2014
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Fantastic! That must be new high for your grumpy BMC posts, just delete them from your Universe
 Tom Valentine 04 Oct 2014
In reply to Lusk:

I'd be interested to know what routes on the Diamond were like before they were "discovered".
Over to you, GG.
 Simon Caldwell 04 Oct 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

eh? I was just pointing out (in an entirely non-grumpy and BMC-free way) that when someone cleaned Shark 3 or 4 years ago, there was a general "well done", rather than a "stop it you idiot".

Personally I have no problem with a bit of light cleaning, and was unaware of any ban on it. I also have no problem with climbing uncleaned routes, Devil's Spine was one of the best of this year's trip.

Note, this was before I saw the extent of the cleaning that's apparently been done this time
 Martin Hore 04 Oct 2014
In reply to scott titt:

> Nearly all of Lundy is a SSSI, the climbing areas are designated for supralittoral rock habitat; wire brushing this habitat without a Natural England license is illegal, and risks severely impairing our good relationships on Lundy.

Does this need a broader discussion? As others have said, many routes on Lundy are, as I understand it, only possible because they were cleaned before the first ascent. Even good quality routes get relatively infrequent subsequent ascents, compared to mainland venues, and are likely to deteriorate again unless occasionally cleaned.

I spend a week on Lundy every 2 or 3 years. I climbed The Ocean in the 90's and it was pleasant - I've heard it's barely worth doing now. I climbed Performance, next to Magic Flute, a similar time ago and it was already well coated in "brillo" (I've not actually heard that term used before). Three years ago I walked away from starred routes on the Fortress upper tier which looked decidedly unpleasant (though Carol Ann Butler corner on the lower tier proved excellent). And this year I climbed Shark for the first time and was very grateful to whoever had brushed it, I understand quite recently.

I see guidebook author Paul Harrison (I presume it's he) has praised the OP's cleaning efforts on Magic Flute (see the picture link in Lusk's post). And I thought his relationship with the Lundy management was pretty good.

So should we accept a blanket ban on all cleaning, or should we be approaching the relevant bodies to discuss a more nuanced approach, permitting the keeping clean of established routes?

Martin

OP Dave Cundy 04 Oct 2014
In reply to Mostro:

Thanks for your responses so far. Quite illuminating. I must admit, i hadn't considered the SSSI aspect on established crags with a long history of climbing. For the record, it was me who cleaned Shark at Easter 2007 but i ran out of time to do the top bit. I returned last month and finished it and cleaned Magic Flute as well. I did it because i wanted to climb them and assumed they were unclimbable (for me, an E1 leader) in their current state. As to the SSSI aspect, there was only 'brillo' on the rock faces and a few common plants in the cracks. May be we need an agreed policy with the island warden because a lit more cleaning is going to be needed in the next few years.
OP Dave Cundy 04 Oct 2014
In reply to Lusk:
I guess I did do a proper job on the top half of Magic Flute but you have to get half way there before you find the holds. By that time, you might as well grit your teeth and finish the job. Also, i was kind of intending to do Performance at the same time but it took so long that i abandoned the idea. It was taking 5-10 hrs a pitch for Shark and MF. You may be pleased to know that the bottom half of MF has been less well cleaned.
 alan moore 04 Oct 2014
In reply to Mostro:

The routes on Lundy return to their natural state because they are not very popular. Every once in a while a route gets cleaned by somebody who wants to do it bad enough. They don't broadcast the fact. Nobody is bothered.
Somebody mentioned doing The Ocean in the 90's and thought it was OK. I down cleaned the route in the 90's using the companion set I found in the Castle. I don't think I could have climbed it without.
The newly cleaned routes on the Fluted Face will probably revert to normal as they are going to be low down on the tick list of most visitors. Hope you enjoyed doing them. Probably best just to do your own thing and try not to make the news.
In reply to Mostro:

In reply to the anti-cleaners in general, I'm not sure I get this. A hell of a lot of routes on Lundy were cleaned prior to the first ascent, and no-one seemed to mind then. Is this a new approach by the Lundy authorities, or what?

jcm
 Offwidth 05 Oct 2014
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Who is anti-cleaning here? Not many I suspect if its discrete and sensitive. Complete denuding of brillo in ignorance of sensitivities then public announcements of such (with photos that might horrify some naturalists) seems to me to be the issue at hand. How long do you think such a situation could be allowed to last by those responsible for Lundy? We have to do better than that as climbers or someone will force our hand.

Anyhow on the subject of brillo I'm trying to think of a more unlikely finish than Economist's Route: a VD with a big bulge with the top completely overgrown and it goes for a VD leader (even if the grade is a little bit stiff).
Post edited at 12:27
In reply to Offwidth:

I had the impression some were saying it was illegal full stop.

jcm
 alan moore 05 Oct 2014
In reply to Offwidth:
Right enough; There's lots of routes between Lands End and Gwennup that are equally hairy but a handfull of ascents are enough to keep the holds clean

By the way, it seems to be called Sea Ivory.
 Jon Stewart 05 Oct 2014
In reply to alan moore:

> By the way, it seems to be called Sea Ivory.

I always thought it was called Green Pubes.
OP Dave Cundy 05 Oct 2014
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I definitely haven't heard it called that before! I bit of a search on the web last night suggests that (a) it is part of the rocella family of lichens and (b) that it isn't mentioned in the Lundy citation on the English Heritage website. They specifically mention golden haired lichen, but nothing else along the lines of 'brillo'. I suspect the biggest problem when cleaning may be digging an unusual plant out of a nice crack.
 Max factor 06 Oct 2014
In reply to Mostro:

In reply to the OP's question.

Yes, I am happy to climb a pitch that is liberally covered in lichen on the proviso that the key holds and gear placements are clean(ish). Bits of stuff blowing up your nose and in your eyes as you root around for gear is absolutely part of the sea cliff experience.

Clearly from the 'before' photo of the Magic Flute you'd be gardening as you go, so I thank you for your efforts cleaning the route, though personally would prefer it to be more on the moderate side.

I can see how that is hard when the holds are totally hidden, and maybe it needs to be properly clean before it gains enough popularity to keep it clean in future. Who knows?
 Bob Moulton 06 Oct 2014
In reply to Mostro:

As the person who did the original clean of Magic Flute (not quite as much as in that photo though and without a wire brush) and the first ascent, this came as a pleasant surprise as I had reconciled myself to it never getting any further ascents after a certain date.

I don't know if there were such things as SSSIs in 1973, and certainly the island authorities (I think that this was before the Landmark Trust) didn't object. The cleaning on routes such as those in Deep Zawn was fully described in the various guidebooks, all of which have been readily avaibable to the islsnd authorities.

In those days, we just called it lichen.
 Paul Ha 07 Oct 2014
In reply to Mostro:

Hi Bob hope your well, it seems you can't keep a good climb/climber down!
As well as The Fluted Face,The Diamond also saw a good 'clean up' this year with many of the routes getting attention. Having chatted extensively with the warden recently, cleaning lichen from routes is tolerated within reason, there was far more concern over climbers observing changing nesting restrictions, unsightly tat being left in situ and abseil stakes being placed. The stakes were subsequently removed by climbers and the relationship with the Island remains good.
Paul Harrison

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