UKC

I always tie a stopper knot when tying in to the harness and always make sure it is snug up to the main knot (fig8/bowline). Can you remind me why it is best practice to keep it snug against the main knot, and not say 10-15 cms away?

Its one of those things I've always done but can't remember why! In the back of my mind I vaguely recall something about having no additional loop that can get stuck when clipping gear on lead....

In reply to Iain(2010):

One of my partners ties his stopper knot some distance away from the main knot and he has on one occasion while lead climbing outdoors, clipped the loop which is formed between stopper and main knot. My own habit is to but the stopper tightly up to the main knot.

In reply to Iain(2010):

You can clip into the gap between the stopper and your figure of eight. Impedes upwards progress when leading, would cause you to drop a second if belaying.

In reply to Iain(2010):

It's not particularly "best practice" to have a stopper knot at all. What is it "stopping"? it serves no real purpose unless you happen to have tied your knot with the tail too long and want to keep it out of the way.

But if you want one, it's good to keep it close to the actual knot for the reason you state, or so that you don't accidentally clip something important - your abseil device for example - into the non-load-bearing loop between the main knot and the stopper.

In reply to AlanLittle:


With a bowline the stopper knot is an integral part of the system. Without one it can work loose,

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

True. I was thinking of a fig-8, which seems to be the general standard nowadays. Or a rethreaded bowline, where the rethreading is the "stopper".

In reply to AlanLittle:

I think the confusion lies in the fact that a lot of places will teach you to tie a stopper knot on a figure of 8 even though it's not strictly required.

One reason I heard for this was that if the student has enough rope to tie a stopper knot, then you know the tail on the fig. 8 is long enough... seems a bit daft to me when you could just teach why a tail is required and therefore have the student understand the system better.

In reply to Ciro:

Yes, I suppose those are the reasons. I learned that way too long ago, and only stopped using a stopper knot quite recently.

A friend of mine who is an instructor in Germany told me the DAV doesn't recommend stopper knots any more, because you either have the potentially confusing extra loop as already discussed, or you have a potentially confusing visual mess right up against the main knot making it harder for your partner to eyeball check the knot. It's easy enough to judge the length of the tail.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Yes, but don't they do rethreaded bowlines (which definitely don't need a stopper since the entire rethreading is a stopper of sorts)?

Making you do a certain number of loops (usually just 2) on the stopper guarantees you have a certain length of tail, and it is for this reason (and this reason alone, really) I make anyone I am teaching do it...

In reply to AlanLittle:



A lot of good research is done, but also a lot of interfering for interferings sake. Sometimes committee members just trying to justify their positions ( or egos )

Tie a proper knot then add a proper stopper knot.

Well proven to be safe but unfortunately not fool proof.

There will always be one. Take care.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Interestingly, it's the same in Sweden; the Swedish Climbing Federation actively discourages the teaching of stopper knots, the rationale being that people might clip accidentally clip into an anchor between the stopper and the 8 by accident - and, seeing as the culture here is very reliant on people paying for courses, rather than learning from their mates, there have been multiple times when I've tied a stopper without thinking and had people tell me my knot is wrong.

In reply to Rick Graham:



to what end? (assuming we're talking about a fig.8)

In reply to Rick Graham:


In fact it was a decision made by the DAV after the death of a young female climber who was clipped into the stopper knot which then failed. Sometimes committees have more information available and the experience to make decisions which may not be easily understood by keyboard experts.

In reply to AlanLittle:


Rethreaded bowline is not as secure as you may think, unless laid perfectly and then significantly tensioned immediately... The rethreaded loop can actually end up sat above the bowline loop and slip, this can happen when you fall on it if the knot is not properly tensioned when tying!

After a scary experience with this recently (fell and gripped the knot tail for dear life whilst shouting to lower me off with great haste), I consider a stopper essential to any and all bowline knots.

In reply to andrewmcleod:


Both, but I was talking about fig-8s

In reply to jimtitt:

I am not a keyboard expert but have been on a lot of committees!

A snug stopper tight to the main knot would be difficult to clip.

Think I will not be alone in continuing to tie both properly.

In reply to KellyKettle:

I'm not sure from your description that what I'm referring to as a "rethreaded bowline" is the same as what you're thinking of.

If the re-threading of a re-threaded bowline comes undone, then you have a single bowline with a very long tail, and are still pretty safe.

This is the knot I'm thinking of:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelter_Palstek

In reply to AlanLittle:
Ah, The Double Bowline, that should be secure!

I've always known Rethreaded Bowline to be synonimous with the Alternate Bowline (as described by the BMC) or Bowline with Yosemite Finish (as described by my dad) Which is secure until it isn't.

In reply to Rick Graham:

The point of a stopper knot with a figure of eight is to stop it capsizing (inverting). This can happen if there are two forces acting in opposite direction on the main loop, i.e., pulling the knot apart at its base. If the force is large enough (or the knot is loose) the figure of eight starts "rolling" up the rope and will fail when it get to the end of the shorter tail. The fig-of-8 with a Yosemite finish is particularly prone to this. The stopper knot will prevent the knot capsizing. There is a risk of clipping in to the wrong loop if you tie a "stopper knot" in the tail of the rope with a gap between the stopper knot and the fig-of-8, but there is no reason to do this - the stopper knot should be snug against the fig-of-8 so it can do its job.

In reply to Pierre Maxted:
In my eyes this is why a) I am not a fan of belaying off a rope loop with a Fig 8, given their propensity to roll (as in abseil knots), and b) why I would never take a perfectly good knot (Fig 8) and do an untested (?) variation that may weaken it (the Yosemite finish). I am unconvinced (in the absence of testing) that a stopper knot is a good fix to either of these problems (particularly given that they regularly come undone on me).

I have never heard this explanation before though, which makes it interesting!

PS for me rethreaded means 'completely rethreaded through the original knot as in the rethreaded (standard) Fig 8'

PPS perhaps I am being dull but when people talking about clipping into the anchor between the Fig 8 and the stopper, is this when using the rope loop? (since I don't, this is then not a hazard for me?)

In reply to Pierre Maxted:


As I understand it (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this) if you manage to make the fig. 8 collapse it will roll once and create another stable knot which will by now be pretty tight - in order to make it roll again, you need to unload and re-load the loop repeatedly. If this can happen out of sight (such as the abseil join) it could have disastrous consequences but I don't really see how you could roll your tie in knot several times without noticing.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

I am unconvinced (in the absence of testing) that a stopper knot is a good fix to either of these problems (particularly given that they regularly come undone on me).

If your stopper knot is regularly coming undone I think you're doing something wrong - I've been using a bowline with a stopper for years sport climbing and never had it start to untie (the first time it did, I'd be back to a fig. 8!)

In reply to Pierre Maxted:

Genuine question: Do you have any personal experience of, links to stories of, or testing showing a ring loaded rethreaded fig 8 capsizing when used to to close a loop to belay from?

In reply to andrewmcleod:


You must be tying them wrong: youtube.com/watch?v=sP-jB5Vsv0s&


Chris

In reply to Pierre Maxted:


Agreed. Good reason for using a SK.

There are also some other good reasons including,
any undoing of the knots will happen to the SK first before it becomes critical
if the main knot is mis tied the stopper may make it viable

Looking at your profile re Ken Wilson ,

Once had a very enjoyable couple of pints in the Moon (after an evenings climbing at Stoney) with both Ken Wilson and Dick Turnbull !
Managed to keep them both at fever pitch on separate subjects simultaneously.

Rick ( typing with one finger )

In reply to AlH:

My understanding is that the answer to this is no, this hasn't been seen to happen.

I think there are a few conflations going on with this subject. One obvious one is that the bowline needs a stopper to be secure, so by extension it's become 'knowledge' that all harness tie-in knots need a stopper.

Another is that the Yosemite finish to the fig 8 can invert and roll, so by extension all variants of the 8 can roll.

I'm sure that, the last time this came up, someone provided proof that a regular fig 8 wouldn't invert under ring loading up to 8kN. I can't find it now, though - anyone remember that thread?

On that basis I don't use them. A stopper on a fig 8 wastes time and rope on something with no discernable benefit. It seems to me that mis-tying the 8 is a far greater risk, and not having a stopper in the way makes it easier to see if the 8 is lying correctly. And it also gets rid of that potential loop above the 8.

The information that might yet make me change my mind on this would be evidence that a mis-tied 8 with a stopper is stronger than the mis-tied 8 alone - but I don't recall ever seeing tests on this.

In reply to Iain(2010):

Returning to the OP's question, the reason the stopper goes tight up against the bowline is that if the knots are in contact then the chances the stopper will still be there if you ever needed it are far greater as it will come untied less easily.

You can see this when people tie a stopper on a fig eight 15cm up the rope. Within one pitch the thing is often ready to untie itself. Six pitches up it won't be there. (not that a stopper is needed on a fig8)

And as others have pointed out, someone might clip into that 15cm loop in error.

In reply to Iain(2010):

I will continue both to use and to teach the stopper with the rethreaded figure of 8 (tied snug against the main knot), because I think it's a reliable way to ensure the tail is long enough every time the knot is used.

It's true that the length of tail can be checked, but climbers can get lazy and not bother to adjust if the tail is on the short side; I've seen that many times. If you feel somehow "naked" without the stopper you will always have a long enough tail.

In a teaching context, the stopper is especially useful in guaranteeing sufficient tail length. Without it, it's difficult to be specific about the ideal length, as it varies with rope diameter.

In reply to bpmclimb:


You need a mechanism to check you got about 10 cm/1 hand-width left over? If so, quickly grabbing the tail and checking is faster than tying a knot.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I will concede I do often tie my stoppers lazily, loosely and sometimes optimistically (i.e. with about 0.5cm of tail), which is probably a bad habit...

(will tie better stoppers in future!)

In reply to bpmclimb:


In a teaching context the students will mostly be using single ropes between 9.5 and 10.5mm diameter. So the ideal tail length varies by approximately how much?

In reply to hang_about:


How?

I generally agree with the 'so as not to form a second loop' bit.
jk

In reply to jkarran:

would is a bit strong but imagine belaying off the rope loop and clipping into the
2nd poor SK loop instead, under a load COULD fail, the SK coming undone and the belay
device would not be connected to anything. .

NO idea how likely but its not how a stopper knot is to be loaded,

In reply to Iain(2010):

When teaching, I tend to tell adults to leave at least a palm's width, and children (or people with smaller hands) to leave at least a hand's length - in both cases this'll be about 10cm. And I'm rigorous about having them retie if it's even 1cm short. I just don't see the need to introduce the possibility of that extra loop - which I agree would likely fail disastrously if the climber managed to end up belaying from it.

Like I said, if I saw proof that a stopper on a fig 8 actually added anything in terms of strength or safety, I'd rethink. But I honestly don't think it adds anything apart from an unnecessary increase in what beginners can find to be an already complicated process.

In reply to jkarran:

If they fell and you had clipped your ATC into the gap between the figure 8 and the stopper it would be pretty unsafe. Unlikely, but given my ability to set up appallingly messy belays, plausible.

In reply to hang_about & lithos:

You're both assuming a poorly tied stopper in which case you make a fair point. Thinking about it even with a well tied stopper there is potential for the loop to enlarge under load if the main strand of rope about which the stopper is tied is not kept under tension by being used in the belay. That would require a fairly unconventional set-up plus a mistake but I guess these things occasionally coincide.

Anyway, fair points you could contrive a dangerous situation. I was mostly taking exception to the strong statement that it 'would cause...' when in reality with a well tied stopper and a conventional belay built using the rope it'd be fine.

jk

In reply to Iain(2010):

A lot of people are saying they don't tie a stopper knot because it forms a non-structural loop, which is fair enough. But why not keep the stopper snug to the figure of 8? Then you've got no loop, a stopper which means there's no way the figure 8 can invert (unlikely, but the only function of a stopper knot), and no tail left (so you can't "clip" it if you're leading up a tight chimney.

In reply to Iain(2010):

Then there is no space for a finger to get trapped while falling and cause some pain

In reply to Iain(2010):

I agree with climbwhenready. I always tie off a Fig-8 with a stopper. Partly this is habit, but intuitively it feels right to leave a reasonable length of tail, whether or not it is strictly necessary for the security of the knot. Tying a stopper keeps this tidy and out of the way. I prefer not to have a loose end flapping about. I have it dressed well up against the knot where it's unlikely to come undone, although if it does I'm not worried about it.

It has never occurred to me that it might be possible to clip into this, because the way I tie it I think it would be very difficult to do by accident, because it doesn't make an additional loop. I would be far more concerned about accidentally clipping a loose tail in mistake for the live rope.

Of course I don't underestimate the many imaginative ways people can find to f*ck things up, and if on balance you feel you are safer without a stopper then that's your choice. Personally I feel safer when the rope is kept tidy, and a stopper achieves this.

In reply to markus691:


Not sure where to start in replying to that. You seem to have either not understood or ignored my main points - about laziness and about teaching.

In reply to AlanLittle:


I sometimes supervise relative novices using double skinnies, so the variation can be considerable. Even with thicker ropes there can be significant variation in optimum tail length, because it also depends on how snugly and neatly the fig.8 has been tied.

In reply to Iain(2010):

I definitely prefer to tie a stopper snug against the main knot. If you leave a gap you've got a loop which could accidentally get clipped and you're also increasing the minimum distance between your knot and a krab if you're wanting to dog.

I agree that a stopper knot is not needed on certain knots but it means you have less tail dangling about.

In reply to Iain(2010):

Clipping gear at/below waist level becomes more difficult with the stopper a bit out from the knot, as you have to pull up enough slack that you're past the stopper before you clip.