UKC

Excuse the rant element to my post, but there is a point to it...

The last 4 weekends I've been out (in the Peak and Lakes) I have been tangled up with five separate outdoor 'events' while out on the hill - mainly running events. It's getting to the point where you now need to Google 'extreme/charity/commercial/race events' the day before you go out to ensure you can have a day out in the hills which doesn't feel like you've walked into a Redbull sponsored nightmare;
With runners thundering past you every few seconds.
Sponsorship logos (redbull, sainsburys, etc) stuck to gates, summit points, trees, etc.
Orange and white plastic tape stretched and tied every couple of hundred meters.
Paths covered in gobbed up spit from runners (Winhill last week).
Paths completely trashed from hundreds of runners on same day.
Exacerbated traffic congestion and parking problems, especially in the Lakes.
Stereos playing motivational music, folk on trumpets, etc out on the hills.
Signs like 'Almost there!' along paths and roads.
Spray paint on paths. Getting more common. Washes off after heavy rain, but still..

I understand that outdoor events have been taking place for decades and will continue to do so, and I understand that by being there, I too contribute in a small way to the erosion and crowding of an area. I also understand the 'if you don't like it go somewhere else' argument (which I usually do), although if you have small kids that's not always possible. But there seems to me, as with all aspects of our use of the outdoors (or indeed the whole planet) that there is a balance to be struck. It feels very much that with the recent growth of organised events in our hills, that balance has now been lost and it shows no sign of redressing itself.
I'm no expert, but could that balance be redressed somewhat by 1) National parks (or the like) providing better control over these events. 2) There being some sort of payback system for events using (and degrading) public landscapes especially when it's a commercial event.
Maybe there are better options? Maybe these measures are already in place? But if so they need re-addressing.

In reply to MattDTC:

I think you need to seperate the fact that a lot of people choose to get out on the hills together at the same time as yourself from the glitz and razzle around it - for which I agree it should be better managed.

In reply to MattDTC:

Maybe you are just going to the wrong places. I'm not sure I have ever been on Win Hill when it wasn't swarming with people.

In reply to MattDTC:

What were there events, I do a lot of running events and don't recognise your description, admittedly not the extreme queuing type events that seem popular these days, but still.

In reply to davidbeynon:


Yeah I agree, you expect Win hill to be busy. This was more to do with the rise of organised events and the negative impacts they have on other hill users and the landscape/infrastructure, along with the responsibilities to re-balance this impact.

In reply to MattDTC:

I can see where you are coming from

A few weeks ago I did my first cycling sportive - the Grindleford Goat - and I can't see why these events have suddenly become so popular. I did it because I wanted to try a sportive and because it was raising money for a good cause - and importantly a local cause - of a community run local shop. Yes I had a few chats with people as I rode round, meet a few UKCers at the feed, but the roads were all ones that I regularly ride anyway. However the fact that there was another sportive running the following day - professionally organised - has apparently led to some anger in some of the villages.

I'm all in favour of the occasional road closure for a race - professional or amateur - but less convinced that a having several events going on every weekend is a good thing. I also think the way big companies like Wiggle are getting involved is not a good thing, and that part of the aim of such events should be to encourage to go to quiet areas (this was the rationale behind the Kielder 100 MTB race) rather than already busy honeypots.

In reply to MattDTC:

road events I can understand as it gets in the way of traffic / closed routes etc. But on the mountains or hills theres plenty of room (aside from very few narrow passing points perhaps) stop moaning.

In reply to MattDTC:

A very interesting and aptly timed topic and one that has been raised at quite a a few BMC Area Meetings. The rise in the number of challenge and charity type events certainly seems to be encouraging more people to get involved with the outdoors and to be more active. But as always events and mass-participation type events can have an impact on the environment, on other users, local residents and on land mangement.

This is why the BMC is hosting an open seminar on this very topic this Thursday at the Rheged centre at Penrith, involving land owners, conservation bodies, BMC members, event organisers, charities and anyone with an interest in the subject.
Full details are on the BMC website
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/challenge-events-three-peaks-mountain-marathon-con...

In reply to MattDTC:

I'm broadly sympathetic to your point. In particular there have been several occasions when there have been concentrations of water bottles/ gel wrappers/ signs etc left behind after an event for others to pick up. I think that in a similar way to the three peaks that as soon as people are concentrating on time/position rather than their environment, that's the moment that otherwise considerate people start leaving rubbish behind and failing to consider their fellow visitors to the hill.

In reply to MattDTC:

I agree - seems to have been a bit of a bike and run event overload in the Dark Peak area this year.

In reply to MattDTC:
Interesting take on things. I take part in a lot of off road running events. Like everything in life there's good and bad. Some organisers will think very seriously about their impact whilst others will be more remiss in it. I don't think you can tar all of them with the same brush. If you have a particular beef with an organiser or event, name and shame?

Whats wrong with motivational signs being put on gateposts provided they are all taken down immediately after the event? Paint on the ground, as you say it washes off.

I'm sure the events you refer to will have been given permission to hold their race on Peak land and whilst I do not condone any long term damage to the land from these events, footpaths are there to be used and provided it's cleaned up afterwards why does anyone have any more right to be there enjoying the park in the way they chose?

Open question;

Are the number/type/impact of these events managed by bodies such as National Park Authorities, or is it basically a free for all?

In reply to Elfyn Jones:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/challenge-events-three-peaks-mountain-marathon-con...

Good to see the BMC getting involved, cheers.

In reply to MattDTC:

They need the permission of the landowner (assuming they go off road) and in some cases English Heritage. Fell races like the Auld Lang Syne are limited in numbers participating by EH even though the landowner has no problem with the event.

I'm not aware of NPAs placing any restrictions. On the road, bike races have to inform the police about the event but sportives don't.

In reply to Wonrek:

I'd broadly agree with what you say. Just two points;
1) I think where people or groups are 'altering' the landscape, such as putting tape and signs up, sponsorship logos etc. Then this need to be controlled in some way because it is detrimental to other hill users (who are generally leaving things as are). If everyone was spraying the ground, then... you get the picture.

2)I don't want to have a bash at individuals for using the Peak or Lakes, as you say, but there is a responsibility for those organising these events to think about and remedy the repercussions from these events. As you say some are better than others

In reply to Bob:

Correction.

Road races need permission from the police.
Time Trials only need to inform the police.
Sportives are required to do neither.

Do you really need permission of the landowner to travel along a public right of way?
CRoW land may be different.

;~))

In reply to MattDTC:

Coming from a position of ignorance, why is signage for fell running required? My instinct would be that people in the mountains should be able to find their own way (and I think that fell running doesn't normally travel over terrain where the navigation is hard). Surely if someone goes the wrong way they deserve to come last, is that not part of the game?

In reply to ewar woowar:


You won't get insurance / a race licence without it.

One of my favourite events was the Mary Towneley Relay, but it just became too much for the organisers to keep United Utilities happy.

In reply to toad:

I wonder if someone coming from an organised running event background (e.g. most road running races), could be forgiven for thinking the organisers will pick up any discarded water bottles and gel wrappers, especially in close proximity to any water stations. Even in more remote settings, some may still assume this. It might not just be because they are selfishly thinking about time and position.

The organisers have a responsibility to make it very clear to competitors what they will do in terms of clearing up afterwards or any other environmental considerations, so competitors understand what they in turn are responsible for.

In reply to climbwhenready:


Personally i wouldn't call it ignorance, id call it common sense.

In reply to climbwhenready:

Usually required where the route is only open on the day of the race but also where there might be confusing alternatives say two stiles close together. You might not be able to have marshals at every such point on the course. The Auld Lang Syne for instance has tiger tape (the red and white striped stuff) on canes at regular intervals and the marshals and sweeper pick them up after the race has gone through.

Doesn't stop some people ignoring them though: I was marshal at the top trig point one year, the route goes round the trig and almost heads back on itself so I put a semi-circle of tiger tape around the trig to guide the runners on to the right track. One runner proceeded to vault the tape and carry straight on despite everyone in front of him making the turn! I had to shout several times to get him to turn round.

In reply to mountainbagger:

Or as is emerging more often, competitors have to bring their own cup/bottle/bladder and organisers don't give out disposable cups.

It really depends on who the organisers are pitching the race at as to how much hand holding is needed. More of the races I enter are self navigation so there's nothing left in the wild and aid stations are in village halls/roadside locations.

I do get the point about paint but tbh there's very few that use paint and in my experience it's sparingly done in occasional locations where navigation might be particularly tricky and certainly isn't liberally done.

In reply to Wonrek:


Hmmm... I'm not sure whether it's what's being talked about here, but there's arguably a distinction between events where people more or less spontaneously get together to "enjoy the park in the way they choose" and events where commercial or charitable organisations are making money by recruiting as many people as possible to get out there regardless of whether or not they actually care about the sort of stuff that makes areas like the Dark Peak rare and special.

In reply to climbwhenready:

I suspect we a not generally talking about races run under an FRA license here, although recent changes to the safety rules has probably led to more route marking.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

>.. and events where commercial or charitable organisations are making money

Also the distinction between commerce and charity seems rather blurred these days.

In reply to MattDTC:

Also true. And to clarify, I'm not saying that commercial or charitable events in the hills are always a bad thing, or that people who've been press-ganged into doing some challenge run with a bunch of mates from work aren't going to appreciate the transcendent majesty of the hills, just that it's a bit more complicated than "my enjoyment of walking is more important than your enjoyment of adventure racing."

In reply to The New NickB:

There was the Red Bull Steeplechase this weekend in the Peak which would account for the Winhill traffic.

In reply to galpinos:

I think we know by now that regardless of any issues surrounding the impacts of club races or "challenge" events, anything with the "red bull" tag is going to be an environmental nightmare

In reply to climbwhenready:


There's different types of race. Some are very much based around navigation by map and compass, others are pretty well directed by signs and the like.
While I'm very capable of navigation in all environments, there's a different enjoyment to being able to simply run without having to worry about it. A race where you spend most of it struggling to find which tiny path is the right one every few hundred metres can become dull quite quickly. The most common types are partially marked, simply giving a hand on the bits that would cause the most slow down - these are probably the best balance and have minimal impact with signage etc. However I agree as such events seem to have had a boost in popularity recently there's a lot being done where no nav is required at all and can be quite overkill.

In reply to MattDTC:


Events like these can take place without any permission from National Park Authority's, unless they are using NPA owned land. If landowners have given permission, and an event is specifcally on rights of way then next to no other permissions are needed (commons are a slightly different kettle of fish but still rely on commoners approval for an event to go ahead.

What NPA's can do (and do) is try and work with event organisers and others to manage the impact of an event, from changing routes because of nature conservation designations for example, or because of ground nesting birds and stock control issues, through to ensuring local people know what is going on and that event organisers source local services like catering/ portaloos etc. so the local economy benefits. Some organisers are really good, support local causes such as mountain rescue and Fix the Fells, and are as sustainable as they possibly can be. Others, with a more commercial bent, are less bothered as long as they make money. And when you look at what some people charge, there is money to be made.

Where I live in the Lakes there must be around 250 organised events every year with the bulk being from April to October. This includes the 90 or so more traditional fell races but also includes trail runs, ultra runs, road runs, triathlons, road cycle sportives (massive increase in these), open water swims, mountain marathons, mtb events, multi activity events, obstacle courses etc. and there basically isn't a weekend from May to end of August where something isn't happening somewhere.

I've taken part in a few but by and large they aren't for me. Locals organise their own challenges anyway. But I can see the appeal for a lot of people - it is a 'safe' adventure for many - safety in numbers, no navigation necessary for the less elite events, food and drink stops, sweeper wagons to pick up back markers or injured etc. It's a hassle free way of doing an outdoor activity, just like trail centres for mountain bikers. I'm not knocking it but the proliferation of events means they do need managing.

Aye,
Davie

In reply to MattDTC:

nor read the whole thread so apols of I'm repeating others comments.

I was out last Sunday for my second attempt at the Edale skyline and was surprised to come across the red bull steeple chase.

I quite enjoyed the atmosphere. The route straight up the front of mam tor from the land slipped road seemed perverse. The red bull branded compass things were also pretty slow to come down.

I was disappointed not to be able to free load from any of there feed stations and thought the trumpet on Wi hill kinda fun.

I assume the national park runs a permit system a low impact/quiet area pricing model would seem sensible. The race organisers are entitled to make money and I'd like to think people have been coaxed maybe into the wild is land where they wouldn't normally go.

We need to be careful that out complaints don't degenerate into Not on My favourite Mountain arguments. These are national parks after all.

In reply to alasdair19:

"The route straight up the front of mam tor from the land slipped road seemed perverse"

That surprises me. I've done lots of organised events round there, and on every one of them the face of Mam Tor has been out of bounds - I always assumed for environmental reasons as other more dangerous places were allowed.

In reply to MattDTC:

The 3 Peaks with Scafell in the middle of the night is out of control sometimes ,ask the good folk of Wasdale

In reply to alasdair19:



I agree. But 'National Park' doesn't mean it's a free for all. The Peak and Lakes in particular are very heavily used spaces, many (most?) would say to their detriment. In these situations, I agree it's easy to start pointing the finger. It comes down to the fact that organised events in particular degrade these areas, in a literal sense and experientially for other users. There is a balance to be struck. For me, the rapid increase in the number of these events, by definition, is detrimental to these areas (unless you are participating or making money from them) and as such their numbers and impact should be better controlled or the situation will only get worse.

I think you are just talking bullshit.

First of all those places never feel wild or remote anyway. Even in winter condition in Lakes you meet quite a few people. From most of the hills you can see a road or a village.

Second, we are not in a position to judge how others enjoy the outdoors. If a person likes to race in the hill each weekend under Tesco banners we are the ones to kill fun for him walking in a bunch blocking paths. Those runners have same rights as we do. Where are a lot of different hills users like mtb cyclists, dog walkers, climbers, paragliding people &etc. Where was always hatred between different groups. People going for challenges or events are same as we are and have same rights to use hills.

.

In general I am with you. And would love to be the only person on the hill.
Staying away from paths helps.