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Off and on for a few years Ive had bouts of depression for no particular reason, causing significant problems at work, getting irritable and angry, arguing with wife etc.
My friends and family have been very understanding, giving empathy, support, patience
Been to see a GP - they suggested CBT but after they assessed me they said they couldnt help. GP then prescribed some drugs which sort of work but have side effects and dont really make that much difference after a year, perhaps Im getting tolerant to them?
Who else would you call (not ghostbusters please) or what else could you add?
My friends and family have been very understanding, giving empathy, support, patience
Been to see a GP - they suggested CBT but after they assessed me they said they couldnt help. GP then prescribed some drugs which sort of work but have side effects and dont really make that much difference after a year, perhaps Im getting tolerant to them?
Who else would you call (not ghostbusters please) or what else could you add?
In reply to ow arm:
Defo go back to the GP. There are other anti-depressants that may work better and have fewer side effects.
Was it the CBT team that assessed you or the GP? There are online CBT sites that I was recommended to take a look at.
Defo go back to the GP. There are other anti-depressants that may work better and have fewer side effects.
Was it the CBT team that assessed you or the GP? There are online CBT sites that I was recommended to take a look at.
In reply to ow arm:
no gp suggested cbt. I know there are different drugs, but surely thats not going to help in the long term, its only going to mask the symptoms?
Which CBT website(s) did you find useful?
no gp suggested cbt. I know there are different drugs, but surely thats not going to help in the long term, its only going to mask the symptoms?
Which CBT website(s) did you find useful?
In reply to ow arm:
If you are going down the CBT route, I cannot recommend this book enough:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindfulness-practical-guide-peace-frantic-ebook/dp/...
If you are going down the CBT route, I cannot recommend this book enough:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindfulness-practical-guide-peace-frantic-ebook/dp/...
In reply to ow arm:
I went to my Doc and basically she said that one way or another I had to pull myself together. I have used some mindfulness type books and they have worked for me. Sometimes I do slip back, but we all have bad days and good days and you have to learn to forgive yourself.
There seem to be loads on UKC on drugs of one kind or another and my thoughts on that are that unless they "pull themselves together" they will have to be on the drugs forever, but I could be wrong.
Try Power of Now or Maximum Achievement they all seem to basically be saying the same thing.
Like I say worked for me and I am in a better place than I have been for years.
I went to my Doc and basically she said that one way or another I had to pull myself together. I have used some mindfulness type books and they have worked for me. Sometimes I do slip back, but we all have bad days and good days and you have to learn to forgive yourself.
There seem to be loads on UKC on drugs of one kind or another and my thoughts on that are that unless they "pull themselves together" they will have to be on the drugs forever, but I could be wrong.
Try Power of Now or Maximum Achievement they all seem to basically be saying the same thing.
Like I say worked for me and I am in a better place than I have been for years.
In reply to ow arm:
"bouts of depression for no particular reason"
"getting irritable and angry"
A couple of things immediately jumped off the page there when I read your post. I should say at this point that I'm not medically qualified in any way. I'm just someone who has a "mood disorder" that went undiagnosed for 30+ years.
Would you care to elaborate as to how long your bouts of depression have been going on? How are you when you are not depressed? By that,I mean do you consider your mood to be "normal", or perhaps at times something beyond "normal"? Do you get irritable and angry for no obvious reason or is it in response to something? Do you find that normally pleasurable activities such as climbing and walking typically have no impact on a low mood?
CBT can be helpful for some people who are depressed but doesn't work for everyone. Sometimes it works for some specific issues, such as anger management (as in my own case), but doesn't help in any other respect. Anti depressants don't work for everyone.
It is still worth badgering your GP, although I appreciate that can be an exhausting process when you feel depressed. Keeping a mood chart can sometimes help if it shows the extent of your symptoms. Some GPs will simply respond that "everyone gets a bit run down sometimes", which is infuriating if you have clinical depression, so a mood chart may help to counter that.
Although it is expensive, if you can afford it, it may be worth seeing a therapist privately. Try looking here,
http://www.itsgoodtotalk.org.uk/therapists/
The trouble with the NHS system is that you get allocated to one specific therapist who you may simply not get on with, assuming you can even access the process in the first place. Going private means you can try many different therapists, which I think is essential given that you are likely to be telling them some extremely personal and intimate stuff. If you don't get on with one, you can just walk away and try another. There are other therapies beside CBT.
"bouts of depression for no particular reason"
"getting irritable and angry"
A couple of things immediately jumped off the page there when I read your post. I should say at this point that I'm not medically qualified in any way. I'm just someone who has a "mood disorder" that went undiagnosed for 30+ years.
Would you care to elaborate as to how long your bouts of depression have been going on? How are you when you are not depressed? By that,I mean do you consider your mood to be "normal", or perhaps at times something beyond "normal"? Do you get irritable and angry for no obvious reason or is it in response to something? Do you find that normally pleasurable activities such as climbing and walking typically have no impact on a low mood?
CBT can be helpful for some people who are depressed but doesn't work for everyone. Sometimes it works for some specific issues, such as anger management (as in my own case), but doesn't help in any other respect. Anti depressants don't work for everyone.
It is still worth badgering your GP, although I appreciate that can be an exhausting process when you feel depressed. Keeping a mood chart can sometimes help if it shows the extent of your symptoms. Some GPs will simply respond that "everyone gets a bit run down sometimes", which is infuriating if you have clinical depression, so a mood chart may help to counter that.
Although it is expensive, if you can afford it, it may be worth seeing a therapist privately. Try looking here,
http://www.itsgoodtotalk.org.uk/therapists/
The trouble with the NHS system is that you get allocated to one specific therapist who you may simply not get on with, assuming you can even access the process in the first place. Going private means you can try many different therapists, which I think is essential given that you are likely to be telling them some extremely personal and intimate stuff. If you don't get on with one, you can just walk away and try another. There are other therapies beside CBT.
In reply to ow arm:
as has been said, go back to your GP. Or if you didn't feel they cared/understood then go to a different one.
(I had one GP have me break down in his office because after finding the guts to go and discuss something so painful and difficult he sighed and said - in a way that suggested he thought I was talking bollocks - "What do you want me to do?". I had another who was much better but still made me feel I should snap out of it. The one I saw most recently, at my lowest, was fantastic and I left the office feeling like I really had someone at my back and feeling much better just from a short chat).
Different drugs work for different people. Also the initial dose is not always enough, but is the safe starting point in case you don't react well on them. It could also be they're working but you aren't consciously feeling the effects anymore. You get sort of used to them, but they are still there doing their thing.
(I'm quite big and have a fast metabolism, I always end up needing larger doses of everything, but initially I have to start on the safe amount and go back a bit later to up it, but your doctor may not have mentioned this possibility.)
Drugs don't just mask the problem, they ease the symptoms while you work out better ways of thinking, better coping strategies, recuperate, get things back on track etc. That may take a long time, but it's better than not having the symptoms eased and instead losing your job/relationship/financial security/health.
I find it very odd that you were told "we can't help". I'd again speak to your GP (or the better one) about that. If CBT wasn't right for you - which is possible - then there's various other ways to approaching things that should have been suggested. It may, unfortunately, be a funding thing in your area, but there's free services setup all round the country too, which while not necessarily as good can be very helpful and at least be a starting point. Your GP should be able to suggest something.
It's good you're having support from those close to you. That can sometimes be hard in itself though, so don't feel that you don't deserve professional help because you've got help from family, sometimes you need someone who's emotionally separated from you.
A big thing, don't just come off the drugs cold turkey because you think they're not working. That can work fine (I did once, no problems) or can be disastrous (had to take a friend to hospital twice last xmas as she came off citilopram cold turkey and then something stressful happened so she tried to kill herself.
as has been said, go back to your GP. Or if you didn't feel they cared/understood then go to a different one.
(I had one GP have me break down in his office because after finding the guts to go and discuss something so painful and difficult he sighed and said - in a way that suggested he thought I was talking bollocks - "What do you want me to do?". I had another who was much better but still made me feel I should snap out of it. The one I saw most recently, at my lowest, was fantastic and I left the office feeling like I really had someone at my back and feeling much better just from a short chat).
Different drugs work for different people. Also the initial dose is not always enough, but is the safe starting point in case you don't react well on them. It could also be they're working but you aren't consciously feeling the effects anymore. You get sort of used to them, but they are still there doing their thing.
(I'm quite big and have a fast metabolism, I always end up needing larger doses of everything, but initially I have to start on the safe amount and go back a bit later to up it, but your doctor may not have mentioned this possibility.)
Drugs don't just mask the problem, they ease the symptoms while you work out better ways of thinking, better coping strategies, recuperate, get things back on track etc. That may take a long time, but it's better than not having the symptoms eased and instead losing your job/relationship/financial security/health.
I find it very odd that you were told "we can't help". I'd again speak to your GP (or the better one) about that. If CBT wasn't right for you - which is possible - then there's various other ways to approaching things that should have been suggested. It may, unfortunately, be a funding thing in your area, but there's free services setup all round the country too, which while not necessarily as good can be very helpful and at least be a starting point. Your GP should be able to suggest something.
It's good you're having support from those close to you. That can sometimes be hard in itself though, so don't feel that you don't deserve professional help because you've got help from family, sometimes you need someone who's emotionally separated from you.
A big thing, don't just come off the drugs cold turkey because you think they're not working. That can work fine (I did once, no problems) or can be disastrous (had to take a friend to hospital twice last xmas as she came off citilopram cold turkey and then something stressful happened so she tried to kill herself.
In reply to ow arm:
In reply to ow arm:
It's definitely something you need to fix, and you will probably need some form of counseling.
I would suggest lots of reading (internet articles and books) before though. The more you understand about your situation - and everyone's is different - the more you can get out of counseling. The first time I went to counseling, I was told I was an alcoholic, partly because I wasn't sure what was going on. That was utter bollocks and I didn't go to another session until years later.
Couple of things to remember:
- No stigma whatsoever. There's no need to feel any shame.
- Remember that 90% of what people will tell you is complete rubbish. For years, people's words of comfort or advice just made everything worse. "Just be happy" or "it's all in your mind" are pretty stupid things to say if you give it more than a moment's thought.
In reply to ow arm:
It's definitely something you need to fix, and you will probably need some form of counseling.
I would suggest lots of reading (internet articles and books) before though. The more you understand about your situation - and everyone's is different - the more you can get out of counseling. The first time I went to counseling, I was told I was an alcoholic, partly because I wasn't sure what was going on. That was utter bollocks and I didn't go to another session until years later.
Couple of things to remember:
- No stigma whatsoever. There's no need to feel any shame.
- Remember that 90% of what people will tell you is complete rubbish. For years, people's words of comfort or advice just made everything worse. "Just be happy" or "it's all in your mind" are pretty stupid things to say if you give it more than a moment's thought.
In reply to ow arm:
I think that the drugs do work. In conjunction with some kind of therapy. The right combination of the 2 makes an enormous difference. I gave up on the nhs (useless cbt woman and then therapy with over a years waiting list and not after 3pm - I'd just got back to work) so I see a clinical psychologist privately, she has a sliding scale and its just about affordable. I do also find my gp helpful. I tried a different anti d after the first one wasn't great.
Good luck.
I think that the drugs do work. In conjunction with some kind of therapy. The right combination of the 2 makes an enormous difference. I gave up on the nhs (useless cbt woman and then therapy with over a years waiting list and not after 3pm - I'd just got back to work) so I see a clinical psychologist privately, she has a sliding scale and its just about affordable. I do also find my gp helpful. I tried a different anti d after the first one wasn't great.
Good luck.
In reply to Senior_Social_Worker:
Not really helpful telling people to pull themselves together. I hope you are trolling again.
Not really helpful telling people to pull themselves together. I hope you are trolling again.
In reply to marsbar:
I can remember another mental health therapist saying that the background causes for depression can need addressing if somebody is to come off medication, which is possible where he was coming from? Or sometimes people may need to stay on it, I'm not in a place to comment.
That shouldn't be a concern for the OP presently, though.
I can remember another mental health therapist saying that the background causes for depression can need addressing if somebody is to come off medication, which is possible where he was coming from? Or sometimes people may need to stay on it, I'm not in a place to comment.
That shouldn't be a concern for the OP presently, though.
Post edited at 14:29
In reply to Scarab9
Yes, please dont ever come off anti depressants without medical advice. The consequences can be tragic.
> It's good you're having support from those close to you. That can sometimes be hard in itself though the drugs cold turkey because you think they're not working. That can work fine (I did once, no problems) or can be disastrous (had to take a friend to hospital twice last xmas as she came off citilopram cold turkey and then something stressful happened so she tried to kill herself.
Yes, please dont ever come off anti depressants without medical advice. The consequences can be tragic.
In reply to ow arm:
Tried Prozac - didn't work and I had bad side effects.
Back to GP who gave Citalopram. It works brilliantly and I have had prescriptions varying from 10mg, 20mg or 40mg depending on severity.
Everyone is different but when the (very sympathetic) GP explained how the drugs work on the serotonin issue it made sense to me.
As several people have said - back to the GP (or a different GP at the practice) with a robust approach may be the best port of call.
Good luck
Tried Prozac - didn't work and I had bad side effects.
Back to GP who gave Citalopram. It works brilliantly and I have had prescriptions varying from 10mg, 20mg or 40mg depending on severity.
Everyone is different but when the (very sympathetic) GP explained how the drugs work on the serotonin issue it made sense to me.
As several people have said - back to the GP (or a different GP at the practice) with a robust approach may be the best port of call.
Good luck
In reply to ow arm:
Anti-depressants don't mask the symptoms like pain-kilers, they help to rebalance your neurotransmitter systems, which is what has gone awry in depression (low serotonin, Glutamate, ACh, noradrenaline, dopamine etc).
Different drugs work differently, and not all antidepressants are the same (eg some are better for slowness of thought, others are better for anxiety symptoms...)
i'll have to find the website, but Y Gribin's book suggestion is a good one.
Anti-depressants don't mask the symptoms like pain-kilers, they help to rebalance your neurotransmitter systems, which is what has gone awry in depression (low serotonin, Glutamate, ACh, noradrenaline, dopamine etc).
Different drugs work differently, and not all antidepressants are the same (eg some are better for slowness of thought, others are better for anxiety symptoms...)
i'll have to find the website, but Y Gribin's book suggestion is a good one.
In reply to ow arm:
As somebody who used to be very anxious I've found Vanlafaxine helpful. Now I can stand in front of parents and their children I don't know, and waffle on about pound dipping.
As somebody who used to be very anxious I've found Vanlafaxine helpful. Now I can stand in front of parents and their children I don't know, and waffle on about pound dipping.
Post edited at 14:44
In reply to marsbar:
I am not prepared to bat this back and forwards with you, I related my personal experince which worked for me and seemed relevant to the OP, if it helps great, I tried, if it upsets you, tough.
I am not prepared to bat this back and forwards with you, I related my personal experince which worked for me and seemed relevant to the OP, if it helps great, I tried, if it upsets you, tough.
It's not 'that' difficult to be civil, folks.
In reply to senior social worker:
I get what you mean, its one way of treating a problem and definately something worth trying, I have tried and some days it works.
In reply to several:
Things Ive found that have helped is avoiding certain foods (especially dairy and soya proteins) and doing plenty of exercise. However it is quite random and very variable, from feeling like theres no point in anything to just being negative and grouchy.
Id say its been about 8 years or thereabouts, same sort of time period as ive had ulcerative colitis, the both are definately related but which came first who knows.
Im not ashamed (hence posting on a public forum!) Citalopram does help and ive been on a low 10mg dose, might need to go up to 20 but Im reluctant to keep taking various meds and not finding the root cause of the problem.
I did come off Citalopram slowly once to see how things were, but soon got back to my usual routine.
Ill have a look in to CBT websites, I am aware of the variability and difficulties with NHS options and I am considering private counselling, but wanted to ask others opinions before shelling out hard earned cash that I could otherwise spend on events and gear
During an ultramarathon recently a friend asked me - whats wrong with us? Happy normal people dont go for 70 mile runs do they. I tend to agree that I sort of enjoy the suffering that comes with endurance and adrenaline sports.
I get what you mean, its one way of treating a problem and definately something worth trying, I have tried and some days it works.
In reply to several:
Things Ive found that have helped is avoiding certain foods (especially dairy and soya proteins) and doing plenty of exercise. However it is quite random and very variable, from feeling like theres no point in anything to just being negative and grouchy.
Id say its been about 8 years or thereabouts, same sort of time period as ive had ulcerative colitis, the both are definately related but which came first who knows.
Im not ashamed (hence posting on a public forum!) Citalopram does help and ive been on a low 10mg dose, might need to go up to 20 but Im reluctant to keep taking various meds and not finding the root cause of the problem.
I did come off Citalopram slowly once to see how things were, but soon got back to my usual routine.
Ill have a look in to CBT websites, I am aware of the variability and difficulties with NHS options and I am considering private counselling, but wanted to ask others opinions before shelling out hard earned cash that I could otherwise spend on events and gear
During an ultramarathon recently a friend asked me - whats wrong with us? Happy normal people dont go for 70 mile runs do they. I tend to agree that I sort of enjoy the suffering that comes with endurance and adrenaline sports.
In reply to hokkyokusei:
Thirded. Don't do it.
> In reply to Scarab9
> Yes, please dont ever come off anti depressants without medical advice. The consequences can be tragic.
Thirded. Don't do it.
In reply to ow arm:
>
The mindfulness camp which I am in would say that such sports force you into the now, no worrying about the past or future, just the now, thats what climbing does for me. I have found a way that works for me to put myself into the now, most of the time. Like I say works for me.
>
> During an ultramarathon recently a friend asked me - whats wrong with us? Happy normal people dont go for 70 mile runs do they. I tend to agree that I sort of enjoy the suffering that comes with endurance and adrenaline sports.
The mindfulness camp which I am in would say that such sports force you into the now, no worrying about the past or future, just the now, thats what climbing does for me. I have found a way that works for me to put myself into the now, most of the time. Like I say works for me.
In reply to Trevers:
CBT can be very effective but I know from a loved one's personal experience, that having had CBT, their own problems warrant a 'deeper' help (not to belittle CBT; it did wonders for me) and this may be true in your case.
I'd also recommend reading Dr Joe Dispenza, particularly 'Breaking The Habit Of Being Yourself,' which gives a very clear explanation as to how we form the feelings and thoughts we do; literally, how we end up with the mind that we have - before offering meditations to help change things.
Good luck
> It's definitely something you need to fix, and you will probably need some form of counseling.
CBT can be very effective but I know from a loved one's personal experience, that having had CBT, their own problems warrant a 'deeper' help (not to belittle CBT; it did wonders for me) and this may be true in your case.
I'd also recommend reading Dr Joe Dispenza, particularly 'Breaking The Habit Of Being Yourself,' which gives a very clear explanation as to how we form the feelings and thoughts we do; literally, how we end up with the mind that we have - before offering meditations to help change things.
Good luck
In reply to ow arm:
In reply to ow arm:
http://www.llttf.com/index.php?section=page&page_seq=13
living life to the full is a free online CBT course, i think it was originally funded by NHS Scotland.
In reply to ow arm:
http://www.llttf.com/index.php?section=page&page_seq=13
living life to the full is a free online CBT course, i think it was originally funded by NHS Scotland.
In reply to ow arm:
I found this very interesting reading, which gives some good ideas on how depression works and how to deal with it:
http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/depression-learning-path/
Good luck - I'm not any sort of medical expert, but it isn't something that you have to tolerate - even a small improvement makes life feel a lot better! And I do think it is something that can be changed for many people.
I found this very interesting reading, which gives some good ideas on how depression works and how to deal with it:
http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/depression-learning-path/
Good luck - I'm not any sort of medical expert, but it isn't something that you have to tolerate - even a small improvement makes life feel a lot better! And I do think it is something that can be changed for many people.
In reply to ow arm:
Although I would encourage you to get support and help, be cautious about what type of counselling. Some types of counselling encourage rumination, a type of thinking that can make depression worse. Thinking on depression and how the brain works has changed a lot in recent years, hence all the CBT everywhere things.
Why did they say you shouldn't have CBT?
http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/depression-learning-path/
> I am considering private counselling
Although I would encourage you to get support and help, be cautious about what type of counselling. Some types of counselling encourage rumination, a type of thinking that can make depression worse. Thinking on depression and how the brain works has changed a lot in recent years, hence all the CBT everywhere things.
Why did they say you shouldn't have CBT?
http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/depression-learning-path/
In reply to ow arm:
they didnt say I couldnt have it just that they felt I didnt need it, they didnt ask why and i didnt ask further.
i shall look in to the links everyone has kindly posted,
Im very impressed with all the responses so quickly!
they didnt say I couldnt have it just that they felt I didnt need it, they didnt ask why and i didnt ask further.
i shall look in to the links everyone has kindly posted,
Im very impressed with all the responses so quickly!
In reply to tlm:
It can depend, I went to therapy because I was 'in a tangle' for want of a better way of putting it, and didn't go with the thought of talking about depression in mind, and I finished the course as a different person (in the long term), it's an ongoing path but I'm much happier.
If one goes in with just general talking in mind, sometimes all kinds of things can pop up, with feeling happier as a result.
This to the OP (and anybody really) by the way, not just yourself in a 'telling you about therapy' sense.
It can depend, I went to therapy because I was 'in a tangle' for want of a better way of putting it, and didn't go with the thought of talking about depression in mind, and I finished the course as a different person (in the long term), it's an ongoing path but I'm much happier.
If one goes in with just general talking in mind, sometimes all kinds of things can pop up, with feeling happier as a result.
This to the OP (and anybody really) by the way, not just yourself in a 'telling you about therapy' sense.
Post edited at 16:15
1
In reply to ow arm:
Therapy helped me a lot, and so did quitting drinking.
(Not drinking is much cheaper)
One of the major side effects of alcohol is depression, if you drink a couple of times a week, and are depressed then quitting the booze will probably help.
My severe depression cleared completely by my third week of being sober, and has stayed away for the last four years.
Therapy helped me a lot, and so did quitting drinking.
(Not drinking is much cheaper)
One of the major side effects of alcohol is depression, if you drink a couple of times a week, and are depressed then quitting the booze will probably help.
My severe depression cleared completely by my third week of being sober, and has stayed away for the last four years.
1
In reply to Skol:
Anger can be a part of depression too, though, as well as excessive guilt, and caring about things too much, beyond which is healthy for the person feeling like they care, or helpful for whom or what triggers the emotion, it can be multi faceted and difficult.
That's not ment to sound as arsey it might by the way...
> Are you depressed or just pissed off? There's a difference.
Anger can be a part of depression too, though, as well as excessive guilt, and caring about things too much, beyond which is healthy for the person feeling like they care, or helpful for whom or what triggers the emotion, it can be multi faceted and difficult.
That's not ment to sound as arsey it might by the way...
Post edited at 17:46
In reply to tlm:
Call me cynical, but CBT is quick and can be delivered very cheaply. That is why the nhs is all over it. It has its uses but for serious stuff its a bit of a sticking plaster. It can help by getting you functional again, which may be enough, but it doesn't deal with underlying issues.
I do agree you should be careful who you chose, and go for someone who will help you move on, not encourage you to walllow.
I was given good advice to find a clinical psychologist not just a counsellor.
Call me cynical, but CBT is quick and can be delivered very cheaply. That is why the nhs is all over it. It has its uses but for serious stuff its a bit of a sticking plaster. It can help by getting you functional again, which may be enough, but it doesn't deal with underlying issues.
I do agree you should be careful who you chose, and go for someone who will help you move on, not encourage you to walllow.
I was given good advice to find a clinical psychologist not just a counsellor.
In reply to Senior_Social_Worker:
You haven't upset me. Its just that if you could just pull yourself together it wouldn't be a problem. Depression is when you can't. Maybe as you get better its useful, but initially if you could then you aren't actually that bad. Anyway, sorry if I upset you.
You haven't upset me. Its just that if you could just pull yourself together it wouldn't be a problem. Depression is when you can't. Maybe as you get better its useful, but initially if you could then you aren't actually that bad. Anyway, sorry if I upset you.
In reply to marsbar:
It's weird, because I sort of invented my own version of thinking differently, before I had heard of CBT. It worked really well for me, I think because it was so personal to me, and because it was my own thing, so I actually made a real effort to break old habits and practice new ones. I then heard about CBT and thought "Oh! That's what I did!" but when I read more about it, I did feel quite disappointed. It just seemed quite shallow in comparison... but I guess in reality, there are good psychologists who practice well, and rubbish ones who just go through the motions. I also found a lot of parallels between what I did and a lot of buddhism...
I feel as though it's all people trying to describe the process of re-jigging your neural networks, but coming at it from different cultural backgrounds. After all a lot of neurology and our understanding of the plasticity of the brain has developed very recently.
I do believe that for some people, changing the ways in which you think can rewire your brain, and for me, it's changed my life over the past 10 years. I haven't been depressed in all of that time, although I've experienced various ups and downs in life, and have most certainly experienced a lot more joy in life.
> Call me cynical, but CBT is quick and can be delivered very cheaply. That is why the nhs is all over it. It has its uses but for serious stuff its a bit of a sticking plaster. It can help by getting you functional again, which may be enough, but it doesn't deal with underlying issues.
It's weird, because I sort of invented my own version of thinking differently, before I had heard of CBT. It worked really well for me, I think because it was so personal to me, and because it was my own thing, so I actually made a real effort to break old habits and practice new ones. I then heard about CBT and thought "Oh! That's what I did!" but when I read more about it, I did feel quite disappointed. It just seemed quite shallow in comparison... but I guess in reality, there are good psychologists who practice well, and rubbish ones who just go through the motions. I also found a lot of parallels between what I did and a lot of buddhism...
I feel as though it's all people trying to describe the process of re-jigging your neural networks, but coming at it from different cultural backgrounds. After all a lot of neurology and our understanding of the plasticity of the brain has developed very recently.
I do believe that for some people, changing the ways in which you think can rewire your brain, and for me, it's changed my life over the past 10 years. I haven't been depressed in all of that time, although I've experienced various ups and downs in life, and have most certainly experienced a lot more joy in life.
In reply to Skol:
An extremely good question.
Doctors aren't particularly good at telling the difference. What I needed to do to sort out my "mental illness" was to quit my job and train to do something I don't find completely shit and pointless instead. A great cure for the "depression" I'd been diagnosed with.
Not suggesting for a minute that this applies to any given person who is depressed. I have no doubt it can be a mental illness, but it can also be misery that has been medicalised. The cure for depression may lie in CBT or drugs or other therapy. The cure for misery on the other hand is leaving a marriage, quitting a job, etc.
> Are you depressed or just pissed off? There's a difference.
An extremely good question.
Doctors aren't particularly good at telling the difference. What I needed to do to sort out my "mental illness" was to quit my job and train to do something I don't find completely shit and pointless instead. A great cure for the "depression" I'd been diagnosed with.
Not suggesting for a minute that this applies to any given person who is depressed. I have no doubt it can be a mental illness, but it can also be misery that has been medicalised. The cure for depression may lie in CBT or drugs or other therapy. The cure for misery on the other hand is leaving a marriage, quitting a job, etc.
Post edited at 21:09
In reply to tlm:
Cbt is great if you have thoughts that are upsetting or wrong. If bad thought patterns are the cause of upset then its perfect. If they are a symptom then it may help with functioning. It just isn't the cure-all for other things. For me it was only useful because I felt like I was doing something. It didn't really help in a meaningful way.
Cbt is great if you have thoughts that are upsetting or wrong. If bad thought patterns are the cause of upset then its perfect. If they are a symptom then it may help with functioning. It just isn't the cure-all for other things. For me it was only useful because I felt like I was doing something. It didn't really help in a meaningful way.
In reply to stroppygob:
Exists in the UK?
> Do a walk-in self referral at your local community mental health team.
Exists in the UK?
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Used to when I worked there. Most teams used to have a daily duty officer to screen walk-ins.
Used to when I worked there. Most teams used to have a daily duty officer to screen walk-ins.
In reply to ow arm:
Regular talking therapy worked for me mostly. Stay away from the meds. It will get better, but it may come and go for your lifetime. I used to be a seriously crabby mother f*cker with my nearest and dearest and at a bare minimum it helped me to control that and be more self-aware. Also try picking up a copy of Eugene Gendlin's 'Focusing' for another option. Useful skill.
Regular talking therapy worked for me mostly. Stay away from the meds. It will get better, but it may come and go for your lifetime. I used to be a seriously crabby mother f*cker with my nearest and dearest and at a bare minimum it helped me to control that and be more self-aware. Also try picking up a copy of Eugene Gendlin's 'Focusing' for another option. Useful skill.
In reply to mlt:
That's seriously bad advice.
For many medication is the only way of dealing with a chemical imbalance in the brain. For some it is the lifebelt which keeps them afloat while sorting their lives out.
Let someone qualified decide if meds are needed or not.
> (In reply to ow arm)
>
> Stay away from the meds.
>
> Stay away from the meds.
That's seriously bad advice.
For many medication is the only way of dealing with a chemical imbalance in the brain. For some it is the lifebelt which keeps them afloat while sorting their lives out.
Let someone qualified decide if meds are needed or not.
In reply to marsbar:
Not upset, but I tried to caveat everything I said, just putting across what had worked for me.
I was quite lucky in that the Doc knows me. A huge issue for me was having a mental issue on my med record, she suggested if I could not cope she could see and refer me privately (that bits all a bit complex, but not as bad as it may appear) and it would not appear on my med record. I struggled for years before going to the doctor, and a major factor was the med record thing.
I`m still work in progress, but isn`t everyone
Not upset, but I tried to caveat everything I said, just putting across what had worked for me.
I was quite lucky in that the Doc knows me. A huge issue for me was having a mental issue on my med record, she suggested if I could not cope she could see and refer me privately (that bits all a bit complex, but not as bad as it may appear) and it would not appear on my med record. I struggled for years before going to the doctor, and a major factor was the med record thing.
I`m still work in progress, but isn`t everyone
In reply to stroppygob:
I was initially resistant to the idea of Meds, bust my GP asked me to speak to the Psychiatrist about them (I was seeing the Psychiatrist for ADHD) who managed to convince me (in a long discussion involving several papers on the subject) that the best prospects for the problems i was suffering were to be had with a combination of Drug therapy with talking therapy...
After 2 years in denial of having a problem, a destroyed relationship and 9 months not doing anything (about my problems or much in general really) I finally accepted the need to do something.
I initially went onto a low dose of SSRI meds, and once this took effect had a six monthly stint of fortnightly sessions with a councillor, during which time my dose upped slightly due to increased stress from other factors. As I went through the therapy I felt more and more in control of my emotions, and after 15 months I was able to ramp down the dose of meds and terminate them after 18 months. I occasionally have a bit of a wobble, but generally I'm fixed.
But therapy is only part of it, your friends and loved ones are just as important; an effective support mechanism is crucial, my family were understanding and as helpful as people 300 miles away can be, two of my friends took it upon themselves to make me do things that would make me feel better, sometimes just arriving at the house and just telling me I was going to go into the lab, go kayaking, put on clothes and go across the road to drink black coffee smoke heavily and chat sh*t or cook actual food...
I also found a lot of help from other sufferers a friend almost thrice my age with similar issues was very supportive, and my relationship with a (now estranged) female friend and sometime lover I met shortly after finally seeking help who had rather more serious depression and anxiety was crucial in my recovery not least as she could empathise with me, but also provided a positive focus where I could feel useful and good at something in supporting her reciprocally, when almost everything else I was doing was falling to bits.
Ouch, that was rather personal and detailed... But good luck to you, I hope you can reach a place you're more comfortable in.
> That's seriously bad advice.
Too Right it is, get advice from a suitable professional and take it.I was initially resistant to the idea of Meds, bust my GP asked me to speak to the Psychiatrist about them (I was seeing the Psychiatrist for ADHD) who managed to convince me (in a long discussion involving several papers on the subject) that the best prospects for the problems i was suffering were to be had with a combination of Drug therapy with talking therapy...
After 2 years in denial of having a problem, a destroyed relationship and 9 months not doing anything (about my problems or much in general really) I finally accepted the need to do something.
I initially went onto a low dose of SSRI meds, and once this took effect had a six monthly stint of fortnightly sessions with a councillor, during which time my dose upped slightly due to increased stress from other factors. As I went through the therapy I felt more and more in control of my emotions, and after 15 months I was able to ramp down the dose of meds and terminate them after 18 months. I occasionally have a bit of a wobble, but generally I'm fixed.
But therapy is only part of it, your friends and loved ones are just as important; an effective support mechanism is crucial, my family were understanding and as helpful as people 300 miles away can be, two of my friends took it upon themselves to make me do things that would make me feel better, sometimes just arriving at the house and just telling me I was going to go into the lab, go kayaking, put on clothes and go across the road to drink black coffee smoke heavily and chat sh*t or cook actual food...
I also found a lot of help from other sufferers a friend almost thrice my age with similar issues was very supportive, and my relationship with a (now estranged) female friend and sometime lover I met shortly after finally seeking help who had rather more serious depression and anxiety was crucial in my recovery not least as she could empathise with me, but also provided a positive focus where I could feel useful and good at something in supporting her reciprocally, when almost everything else I was doing was falling to bits.
Ouch, that was rather personal and detailed... But good luck to you, I hope you can reach a place you're more comfortable in.
In reply to ow arm:
Cheers, Im glad others are happy to talk about their own experiences, and what UKC thread wouldnt be complete without a little arguing eh!
I had a look at one of the CBT websites posted and it does indeed seem helpful.
I think that I quite enjoy negative thinking and get some kind of buzz from the cortisol and adrenaline from it so tend to dwell on unhelpful thoughts. Interesting.
Cheers, Im glad others are happy to talk about their own experiences, and what UKC thread wouldnt be complete without a little arguing eh!
I had a look at one of the CBT websites posted and it does indeed seem helpful.
I think that I quite enjoy negative thinking and get some kind of buzz from the cortisol and adrenaline from it so tend to dwell on unhelpful thoughts. Interesting.
In reply to mlt:
Whereas talking therapy didn't do anything for me. It just made me self-ruminate more (something I still do today). The drugs did help, but again this may have been because my depression was triggered by another chemical treatment I was undergoing for an unrelated problem.
I'm very "Mr Spock" when it comes to my emotions, always preferring to bury them away, it isn't healthy, but its what I do. I will eventually sort it out myself, but I do a lot of beating myself up about it. For most people who remit from depression, I think you do find new ways of thinking, whether it's through CBT or otherwise.
Whereas talking therapy didn't do anything for me. It just made me self-ruminate more (something I still do today). The drugs did help, but again this may have been because my depression was triggered by another chemical treatment I was undergoing for an unrelated problem.
I'm very "Mr Spock" when it comes to my emotions, always preferring to bury them away, it isn't healthy, but its what I do. I will eventually sort it out myself, but I do a lot of beating myself up about it. For most people who remit from depression, I think you do find new ways of thinking, whether it's through CBT or otherwise.
In reply to stroppygob:
Looks like many teams accept self-referral by phone/email and some only via the GP.
To the OP: here's the directory if you'd prefer to cut out the GP
http://www.iapt.nhs.uk/services/
> Used to when I worked there. Most teams used to have a daily duty officer to screen walk-ins.
Looks like many teams accept self-referral by phone/email and some only via the GP.
To the OP: here's the directory if you'd prefer to cut out the GP
http://www.iapt.nhs.uk/services/
In reply to mlt:
>Stay away from the meds.
I can't believe anyone would actually write this without having the faintest clue of the individual or the medical diagnosis.
This utter paranoia with medication is barmy - a bit like certain religions that refuse blood transplants.
If you want to practice it yourself, and state that it worked for you, fine. But please don't post categoric nonsense as if it applied to everyone and by implication suggest that those who follow medical advice are somehow "wrong"
>Stay away from the meds.
I can't believe anyone would actually write this without having the faintest clue of the individual or the medical diagnosis.
This utter paranoia with medication is barmy - a bit like certain religions that refuse blood transplants.
If you want to practice it yourself, and state that it worked for you, fine. But please don't post categoric nonsense as if it applied to everyone and by implication suggest that those who follow medical advice are somehow "wrong"
Post edited at 11:45
In reply to ow arm:
I have just gone back onto medication for depression/anxiety. For me it is anxiety led I believe.
I didn't even waste my time talking to my GP, I simply asked them to refer me to the local mental health team. GP gives you around 5 minute slot here, whereas you get a 1 hour appointment with a proper psychiatric at the mental health place.
He wanted me to go onto an SSRI but i've tried them in the past and didn't like the side effects. So am trying a tricyllic anti-depressant and a very lose dose anti-psycotic and it is certainly helping even in the first week. No noticeable side effects yet.
Did CBT years ago and there are some good techniques, don't think i'd benefit from going again but do remember some of the ideas which I know I need to work at.
I have just gone back onto medication for depression/anxiety. For me it is anxiety led I believe.
I didn't even waste my time talking to my GP, I simply asked them to refer me to the local mental health team. GP gives you around 5 minute slot here, whereas you get a 1 hour appointment with a proper psychiatric at the mental health place.
He wanted me to go onto an SSRI but i've tried them in the past and didn't like the side effects. So am trying a tricyllic anti-depressant and a very lose dose anti-psycotic and it is certainly helping even in the first week. No noticeable side effects yet.
Did CBT years ago and there are some good techniques, don't think i'd benefit from going again but do remember some of the ideas which I know I need to work at.
Post edited at 12:30
In reply to Babika:
Well said. I've always had a fear of 'mood-altering drugs' and refused them for periods of depression in the past, but, in a tangentially related situation, after having refused to have anything to do with progesterone for a long time (it turned me into a suicidal wreck, or so I thought) I've just gone on a very very low dose and I feel better than I have in *years*. Who knew?
Well said. I've always had a fear of 'mood-altering drugs' and refused them for periods of depression in the past, but, in a tangentially related situation, after having refused to have anything to do with progesterone for a long time (it turned me into a suicidal wreck, or so I thought) I've just gone on a very very low dose and I feel better than I have in *years*. Who knew?
Funnily enough I just saw this on my twitter feed today: http://www.climbout.co.uk/can-practice-preach/
I'm sat about a mile from one of the pictures on his banner graphic right now.
I'm sat about a mile from one of the pictures on his banner graphic right now.
In reply to Babika:
It's the bane of my life at times. The number of hippy/new age parents we have through our service who come up with lines like; "We don't believe in Western medication, we prefer traditional remedies."
Poor bloody kids are the ones to suffer for that of course.
We had one numbskull who took their seriously psychotic daughter off her Olanzapine (Zyprexa,) as a homeopathist told her that the side effects would last a life time, and flogged her a bottle of juju juice to take instead. Ended up with me and a colleague chasing her all over the city, and a three month admission to the psych ward.
Of course the parents then blamed us for "not understanding her".
Then there's the smart acts who think "talking therapy" is a universal panacea. It's not.
> This utter paranoia with medication is barmy - a bit like certain religions that refuse blood transplants.
It's the bane of my life at times. The number of hippy/new age parents we have through our service who come up with lines like; "We don't believe in Western medication, we prefer traditional remedies."
Poor bloody kids are the ones to suffer for that of course.
We had one numbskull who took their seriously psychotic daughter off her Olanzapine (Zyprexa,) as a homeopathist told her that the side effects would last a life time, and flogged her a bottle of juju juice to take instead. Ended up with me and a colleague chasing her all over the city, and a three month admission to the psych ward.
Of course the parents then blamed us for "not understanding her".
Then there's the smart acts who think "talking therapy" is a universal panacea. It's not.
Post edited at 21:09
In reply to ow arm:
My take on the whole thing is this. Mood (happy, sad, angry, calm) are a result of brain make up and chemical reactions in the brain.
Self administered according to what is around us or what is within us. So opening your front door to a big snarling tiger would, for the majority of people produce adrenalin. Similarly other things induce serotonin and so on and so forth. We can also induce these self same reactions by imagining ourselves in situations and this is where problems can arise. It is one thing to be cautious of attack by a tiger and imagine the consequences. It is another thing altogether to be afraid to leave your house in Reading in case a tiger jumps you. So very natural feelings can become overwhelming and affect one as an illness might.
Again in most cases and for most people there are "tricks" you can use (with practice) to reduce anxiety, over come depression and generally cultivate a better approach to life. I think of it as exercise or physio therapy for the brain.
In some cases, as in some illnesses, self-help may not be enough on its own and medicine is required. After all it is one thing to tell someone that such and such a technique will release serotonin and make you happy (simplistic I know) but if that person has a physical inability to manufacture it then technique on its own will not be enough.
It is a thing that fascinates me. How far can we take self-help or therapy-help before medication is the only way?
I would always try self-help first, look at and study the differing techniques, mainly because if you can find a way to avoid having to take medication then it frees up your time and money.
I am hopeful that the coming century will see new advances in neuro-science and remove some of the guess work from treatment. Having said that we have a far better understanding than we had 50 years ago and it is changing all the time.
My take on the whole thing is this. Mood (happy, sad, angry, calm) are a result of brain make up and chemical reactions in the brain.
Self administered according to what is around us or what is within us. So opening your front door to a big snarling tiger would, for the majority of people produce adrenalin. Similarly other things induce serotonin and so on and so forth. We can also induce these self same reactions by imagining ourselves in situations and this is where problems can arise. It is one thing to be cautious of attack by a tiger and imagine the consequences. It is another thing altogether to be afraid to leave your house in Reading in case a tiger jumps you. So very natural feelings can become overwhelming and affect one as an illness might.
Again in most cases and for most people there are "tricks" you can use (with practice) to reduce anxiety, over come depression and generally cultivate a better approach to life. I think of it as exercise or physio therapy for the brain.
In some cases, as in some illnesses, self-help may not be enough on its own and medicine is required. After all it is one thing to tell someone that such and such a technique will release serotonin and make you happy (simplistic I know) but if that person has a physical inability to manufacture it then technique on its own will not be enough.
It is a thing that fascinates me. How far can we take self-help or therapy-help before medication is the only way?
I would always try self-help first, look at and study the differing techniques, mainly because if you can find a way to avoid having to take medication then it frees up your time and money.
I am hopeful that the coming century will see new advances in neuro-science and remove some of the guess work from treatment. Having said that we have a far better understanding than we had 50 years ago and it is changing all the time.
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Good post Dunc.
Slight qualification though; sometimes self help just prolongs the delay before treatment occurs, and the longer the prodrome the greater the impact of the illness in the long term. Getting good psychiatric advise from a qualified practitioner is usually a good thing to do at the outset.
Good post Dunc.
Slight qualification though; sometimes self help just prolongs the delay before treatment occurs, and the longer the prodrome the greater the impact of the illness in the long term. Getting good psychiatric advise from a qualified practitioner is usually a good thing to do at the outset.
In reply to ow arm:
Are you from Yorkshire? These people can help https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Buh6fTeIYAA_PHh.jpgarge
ps. get well soon
Are you from Yorkshire? These people can help https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Buh6fTeIYAA_PHh.jpgarge
ps. get well soon
In reply to ow arm:
' before you diagnose your self with depression or low self esteem, make sure, that in fact,you are not surrounded by arseholes'
' before you diagnose your self with depression or low self esteem, make sure, that in fact,you are not surrounded by arseholes'
In reply to Skol:
is that supposed to be a joke of some kind?
> ' before you diagnose your self with depression or low self esteem, make sure, that in fact,you are not surrounded by arseholes'
is that supposed to be a joke of some kind?
In reply to Run_Ross_Run:
Obviously not. It's a quote that appeared on my Mrs' Facebook .
> is that supposed to be a joke of some kind?
Obviously not. It's a quote that appeared on my Mrs' Facebook .
In reply to ow arm:
When I finally admitted to myself I needed help, before I went to see my doctor, I spoke to my sister (who is a doctor but living down under) and the way she explained the therapy options to me was this:
If you want coping mechanisms CBT is great, but if you want to understand the underlying causes for your depression, counselling is better. However, counselling is much harder to go through, therefore you really need to be ready to put yourself through the mill and see it through - which means your GP will probably offer CBT first. She also reckoned there is a tendency to offer CBT more to men, because we tend to be more reluctant to talk about our feelings.
After speaking with my GP, I decided I wanted to try un-medicated counselling first (true to form, she did initially suggest CBT but when I said I'd prefer to try counselling she agreed that it was a good idea). I'm not against depression medication - I'd still consider it in the future if things went downhill again and I certainly wouldn't recommend others to avoid it, but for me having spent most of my teens and twenties "self medicating" with various substances I felt I wanted to go into the counselling without anything masking what was going on in my head.
As I say that was a completely personal choice and it's not a recommendation to anyone else one way or the other - apart from anything else I have no dependants and family network that I know would look after me if the sh*t really hit the fan, so the consequences of my strategy going wrong were much less than they might be for others.
I was lucky in that where I lived, my GP was able to refer me to a rather excellent charitable organisation (West London Centre for Counselling) where I was initially offered 12 sessions, but this was almost immediately doubled as certain episodes from my past were uncovered, and eventually extended to last the best part of a year. The standard response from the NHS seems to be 6 weeks therapy and then even if something traumatic is uncovered it'll be "sorry, we can't help you any further at the moment, take some meds and come back in a year or two" which sadly could be fatal, so I'd be wary of going into it without independent means to continue the therapy in such an event... which is a real shame, because it goes against everything the NHS is supposed to stand for.
Anyway, the counselling was a pretty traumatic experience, and there was a period early on where I felt like my whole world had imploded, and became barely functional beyond getting myself in and out of work and doing the bare minimum, however after about four months things started to improve again and I came out the other side with a lot better understanding of (and compassion for) myself.
It's less than a year since I finished the counselling and whilst I still have periods of low mood, I do feel an awful lot better than I have done for a number of years, and I haven't had a single panic attack since quite early on in the counselling process.
tl;dr counselling is really hard work, but has been of great benefit to me.
When I finally admitted to myself I needed help, before I went to see my doctor, I spoke to my sister (who is a doctor but living down under) and the way she explained the therapy options to me was this:
If you want coping mechanisms CBT is great, but if you want to understand the underlying causes for your depression, counselling is better. However, counselling is much harder to go through, therefore you really need to be ready to put yourself through the mill and see it through - which means your GP will probably offer CBT first. She also reckoned there is a tendency to offer CBT more to men, because we tend to be more reluctant to talk about our feelings.
After speaking with my GP, I decided I wanted to try un-medicated counselling first (true to form, she did initially suggest CBT but when I said I'd prefer to try counselling she agreed that it was a good idea). I'm not against depression medication - I'd still consider it in the future if things went downhill again and I certainly wouldn't recommend others to avoid it, but for me having spent most of my teens and twenties "self medicating" with various substances I felt I wanted to go into the counselling without anything masking what was going on in my head.
As I say that was a completely personal choice and it's not a recommendation to anyone else one way or the other - apart from anything else I have no dependants and family network that I know would look after me if the sh*t really hit the fan, so the consequences of my strategy going wrong were much less than they might be for others.
I was lucky in that where I lived, my GP was able to refer me to a rather excellent charitable organisation (West London Centre for Counselling) where I was initially offered 12 sessions, but this was almost immediately doubled as certain episodes from my past were uncovered, and eventually extended to last the best part of a year. The standard response from the NHS seems to be 6 weeks therapy and then even if something traumatic is uncovered it'll be "sorry, we can't help you any further at the moment, take some meds and come back in a year or two" which sadly could be fatal, so I'd be wary of going into it without independent means to continue the therapy in such an event... which is a real shame, because it goes against everything the NHS is supposed to stand for.
Anyway, the counselling was a pretty traumatic experience, and there was a period early on where I felt like my whole world had imploded, and became barely functional beyond getting myself in and out of work and doing the bare minimum, however after about four months things started to improve again and I came out the other side with a lot better understanding of (and compassion for) myself.
It's less than a year since I finished the counselling and whilst I still have periods of low mood, I do feel an awful lot better than I have done for a number of years, and I haven't had a single panic attack since quite early on in the counselling process.
tl;dr counselling is really hard work, but has been of great benefit to me.
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