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Starting to plan a first Alpine trip with 3 friends. We're competent at Scottish Winter grade iv and winter over-nighters. Looking at September/October next year for 4 days in Chamonix (on a tightish budget). Any advice welcome, suggestions for routes/peaks and is October ok as I think the "summer" season tradiionally winds up in September? THANKS.
In reply to dominic5567:
A few immediate thoughts
-October is late. Huts and possibly cable-cars will be shut or just have winter rooms available (this is much cheaper, as a plus). It will also be getting cold and dark. For a first trip there is a lot to be said for going in the main season.
- Four days is *very* short. You may not get anything done at all if the weather is bad and even if it is good, you will spend the whole time acclimatising or be restricted to lower peaks.
- Why Chamonix?
- Beyond that, it depends a bit what you want "classic" alpinism to the tops of peaks, alpine rock, ice climbing? There are good possibilities for all of those.
A few immediate thoughts
-October is late. Huts and possibly cable-cars will be shut or just have winter rooms available (this is much cheaper, as a plus). It will also be getting cold and dark. For a first trip there is a lot to be said for going in the main season.
- Four days is *very* short. You may not get anything done at all if the weather is bad and even if it is good, you will spend the whole time acclimatising or be restricted to lower peaks.
- Why Chamonix?
- Beyond that, it depends a bit what you want "classic" alpinism to the tops of peaks, alpine rock, ice climbing? There are good possibilities for all of those.
In reply to dominic5567:
I wouldn't go unless you can get at least 7 days, also if you drive over there are loads more options for rock climbing away from the main peaks that often have better weather. I had a nice cragging trip late last October going round valley crags in the Oberland and Valais.
I wouldn't go unless you can get at least 7 days, also if you drive over there are loads more options for rock climbing away from the main peaks that often have better weather. I had a nice cragging trip late last October going round valley crags in the Oberland and Valais.
In reply to dominic5567:
I would say early to mid September is ideal. October is a bit late and 4 days is too short for me. Even if you know your way around I think you could only expect to get two short or one long route done in that time. Hardly worth it, especially if the one route you're doing goes to pot (which it will on your first time out).
Chamonix is great. Plenty of shorter, easy access routes, and if you go late in the season then it will at least have some facilities still open. The Italian side (Tourino hut) is also nice and has plenty of easy access routes.
As for routes, from Chamonix you could stay at the Cosmiques and get a couple of nice AD routes done. Contamine Grisolle and Cosmiques arrete are short, easily accessed and very rewarding. The only issue with Grisolle is descent via MBd Tacul, which was very heavily loaded this year.
Alternatively, head up to the Albert Premier (if it's still open) and do a couple of routes up the Tour Noir.
I would drive. It's cheaper (especially with three), takes 8 hours from Calais and you can move around if the weather is pants.
I would say early to mid September is ideal. October is a bit late and 4 days is too short for me. Even if you know your way around I think you could only expect to get two short or one long route done in that time. Hardly worth it, especially if the one route you're doing goes to pot (which it will on your first time out).
Chamonix is great. Plenty of shorter, easy access routes, and if you go late in the season then it will at least have some facilities still open. The Italian side (Tourino hut) is also nice and has plenty of easy access routes.
As for routes, from Chamonix you could stay at the Cosmiques and get a couple of nice AD routes done. Contamine Grisolle and Cosmiques arrete are short, easily accessed and very rewarding. The only issue with Grisolle is descent via MBd Tacul, which was very heavily loaded this year.
Alternatively, head up to the Albert Premier (if it's still open) and do a couple of routes up the Tour Noir.
I would drive. It's cheaper (especially with three), takes 8 hours from Calais and you can move around if the weather is pants.
In reply to edunn:
Well I disagree with almost everything you have said! With the exception of 4 days being too short.
Its true that sometimes people can get good stuff done in September, but they are almost invariably highly experienced Alpinists, who can handle the short days, the colder conditions, the shut refuges and the lack of marked tracks. They normally have good knowledge of what area will be in under late Autumn conditions, typically can ski or handle Alpine mixed well. I also agree with others that Cham is NOT a particularly good place for a first Alpine trip, being crowded, frantic, quite expensive and prone to bad weather, while not having that many straightforward routes to get a feel of what these big mountains are all about.
I think the OP would be better going to a less busy area, further South or East and concentrating on worthwhile routes rather than particular "big name" mountains. The Ecrins and the Engandine are obvious options, though the honeypot areas of the Ecrins can be pretty crowded as well. Also I would NOT go for a first trip so far out of the main season.
It is worth bearing in mind that at least initially, Alpinism will not tax you technically, so ice-climbing ability up to Scottish IV should be ample for anything you are likely to do. For example, this Summer I sort of climbed the North Face of the Brunneghorn, which is given a notional TD grading but the steepest ice pitch was probably no more than 65 degrees, possibly Scottish III for 50m. But the fact that it is in an impressive Alpine setting makes it FEEL far more imposing than in Scotland, though the weather is (normally) better.
I would also very much NOT drive, especially for a short trip. Driving all the way from Calais (and to Dover from wherever you are in the UK), will leave you knackered for several days and below par, just when you need to be in good shape when attempting your first Alpine routes. You will be similarly knackered after getting back to the UK. Driving makes sense for an extended trip, but fly-drive is much more rational for a short visit.
Well I disagree with almost everything you have said! With the exception of 4 days being too short.
Its true that sometimes people can get good stuff done in September, but they are almost invariably highly experienced Alpinists, who can handle the short days, the colder conditions, the shut refuges and the lack of marked tracks. They normally have good knowledge of what area will be in under late Autumn conditions, typically can ski or handle Alpine mixed well. I also agree with others that Cham is NOT a particularly good place for a first Alpine trip, being crowded, frantic, quite expensive and prone to bad weather, while not having that many straightforward routes to get a feel of what these big mountains are all about.
I think the OP would be better going to a less busy area, further South or East and concentrating on worthwhile routes rather than particular "big name" mountains. The Ecrins and the Engandine are obvious options, though the honeypot areas of the Ecrins can be pretty crowded as well. Also I would NOT go for a first trip so far out of the main season.
It is worth bearing in mind that at least initially, Alpinism will not tax you technically, so ice-climbing ability up to Scottish IV should be ample for anything you are likely to do. For example, this Summer I sort of climbed the North Face of the Brunneghorn, which is given a notional TD grading but the steepest ice pitch was probably no more than 65 degrees, possibly Scottish III for 50m. But the fact that it is in an impressive Alpine setting makes it FEEL far more imposing than in Scotland, though the weather is (normally) better.
I would also very much NOT drive, especially for a short trip. Driving all the way from Calais (and to Dover from wherever you are in the UK), will leave you knackered for several days and below par, just when you need to be in good shape when attempting your first Alpine routes. You will be similarly knackered after getting back to the UK. Driving makes sense for an extended trip, but fly-drive is much more rational for a short visit.
Post edited at 11:57
In reply to dominic5567:
Do you know anyone who already knows their way around Chamonix a bit? That would save you a lot of time if they went with you.
Do you know anyone who already knows their way around Chamonix a bit? That would save you a lot of time if they went with you.
In reply to dominic5567:
For what it's worth, my first Alpine trip was to Chamonix in July 2013, I spent 2 weeks there and did not get a lot done. Most of the time was spent getting to grips with the place, learning about my capabilities in Alpine Terrain and figuring out the huts and the lifts and exactly what combination of lift pass would work out cheapest.
If you're going for 4 days your planning is going to have to be shit-hot to get anything done, unless you just spend all your time up at the Aiguilles Rouges.
I went back to Chamonix this September for one week and had an incredible time. It was my climbing partner's first Alpine trip and because I already knew my way around we managed a number of classic routes including 2 days on the Frendo Spur.
So I would disagree with a previous poster and say there's nothing wrong with Chamonix as a destination for a first Alpine trip - I'd be happy if I never go anywhere else - but you'd definitely benefit from someone who knows their way around.
For what it's worth, my first Alpine trip was to Chamonix in July 2013, I spent 2 weeks there and did not get a lot done. Most of the time was spent getting to grips with the place, learning about my capabilities in Alpine Terrain and figuring out the huts and the lifts and exactly what combination of lift pass would work out cheapest.
If you're going for 4 days your planning is going to have to be shit-hot to get anything done, unless you just spend all your time up at the Aiguilles Rouges.
I went back to Chamonix this September for one week and had an incredible time. It was my climbing partner's first Alpine trip and because I already knew my way around we managed a number of classic routes including 2 days on the Frendo Spur.
So I would disagree with a previous poster and say there's nothing wrong with Chamonix as a destination for a first Alpine trip - I'd be happy if I never go anywhere else - but you'd definitely benefit from someone who knows their way around.
In reply to dominic5567:
A good place to start might be to go to the Alpine Club Symposium on 29th November in Buxton. The details are on the AC website. This year it is about how to organise bigger expeditions but there will be plenty of people there who you can talk to about the Alps.
Charlie
A good place to start might be to go to the Alpine Club Symposium on 29th November in Buxton. The details are on the AC website. This year it is about how to organise bigger expeditions but there will be plenty of people there who you can talk to about the Alps.
Charlie
In reply to planetmarshall:
A bit blinkered, in my (not terribly) humble opinion. Compare and contrast :
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=245503
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=244900
There is no ticket machine at the base of the Brunneghorn North face, admittedly this means you cannot reserve your place online from the valley. But seeing as we had the mountain to ourself on this day, it is hardly necessary.
> So I would disagree with a previous poster and say there's nothing wrong with Chamonix as a destination for a first Alpine trip - I'd be happy if I never go anywhere else -
A bit blinkered, in my (not terribly) humble opinion. Compare and contrast :
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=245503
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=244900
There is no ticket machine at the base of the Brunneghorn North face, admittedly this means you cannot reserve your place online from the valley. But seeing as we had the mountain to ourself on this day, it is hardly necessary.
In reply to Simon4:
Well I suppose the world would be a very boring place if we all agreed!
The main thing is to get out there, give it a go and then make sure you come back next year, and the year after, and the year after that, until you finally start getting it right.
Well I suppose the world would be a very boring place if we all agreed!
The main thing is to get out there, give it a go and then make sure you come back next year, and the year after, and the year after that, until you finally start getting it right.
In reply to edunn:
Well I have frequently been to Chamonix, probably many more times than I can remember. But although it undoubtedly has many excellent routes, often with easy access, I think that UK climbers are a bit chanelled about it, and against other areas. I retain the opinion that it is not ideal for a first Alpine visit.
Incidentally, I think the Italian side of the Mont Blanc massif, starting from Courmayeur, is much more dramatic and imposing, though that contains some very serious ground, but is much more wildernessy.
Well I have frequently been to Chamonix, probably many more times than I can remember. But although it undoubtedly has many excellent routes, often with easy access, I think that UK climbers are a bit chanelled about it, and against other areas. I retain the opinion that it is not ideal for a first Alpine visit.
Incidentally, I think the Italian side of the Mont Blanc massif, starting from Courmayeur, is much more dramatic and imposing, though that contains some very serious ground, but is much more wildernessy.
Post edited at 16:03
In reply to edunn:
Well see a couple of suggestions above.
Traditionally the Arolla region was also considered good as it is South of the Bernese Oberland, so to an extent shielded by it and by the Mont Blanc Massif to the West from the worst of the weather, also it has a range of worthwhile peaks and routes that are not as high or as full-on as the 4000s of other areas. Similarly areas around the Grand Paradiso are worth looking at.
This year the weather was so generally bad that any rain shadow was of prime importance in considering where to go, that is not always the main issue.
Well see a couple of suggestions above.
Traditionally the Arolla region was also considered good as it is South of the Bernese Oberland, so to an extent shielded by it and by the Mont Blanc Massif to the West from the worst of the weather, also it has a range of worthwhile peaks and routes that are not as high or as full-on as the 4000s of other areas. Similarly areas around the Grand Paradiso are worth looking at.
This year the weather was so generally bad that any rain shadow was of prime importance in considering where to go, that is not always the main issue.
Post edited at 16:12
In reply to Simon4:
Agree about the channelled thoughts of Chamonix. Alternatives, well, I would head a long way south in France at that time of year. Not for 4 days though. But could I suggest that for a very first time in the alps people should just go for hard walking to get used to the scale?
Agree about the channelled thoughts of Chamonix. Alternatives, well, I would head a long way south in France at that time of year. Not for 4 days though. But could I suggest that for a very first time in the alps people should just go for hard walking to get used to the scale?
In reply to dominic5567:
I agree that Chamonix might not be the best place for your first alpine trip. I went there twice before going to Saas Fee in Switzerland with my partner in mid September. There I got more done than I did in my first two seasons in. Chamonix and for your first trip, on a budget, that could be a good option. Why? The lifts are free, included in the 'citizen pass' from the second overnight stay of your trip. This includes most lifts (with the exception of one, which for a pass for 9 days, cost us not a lot more than a one day lift pass up to the Aiguille de Midi in Chamonix) and all buses in the valley. The peaks are accessible, plenty of easy 4000ers to get done, with harder stuff as well. We were aiming at AD routes and below, but for me the best route of the trip was the Weissmeis traverse at PD. Friendly area, easy to get to on plane plus train then bus. Plenty of alpine rock ridges to do, via ferrata, walking and sport climbing in the valley for rest days...on that note, 4 days is definitely too short. You won't be able to to be 'on' for all of those days, and will need rest days, couple that with potential bad weather and you might only get one route done, so better off sticking in the uk and going up to Scotland or something for 4 days.
Not to say that Chamonix isn't a cool place; it is, but the Alps is so much more than that as well, and it's easy to overlook that! Another shout for Arolla in this article http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=6372
I agree that Chamonix might not be the best place for your first alpine trip. I went there twice before going to Saas Fee in Switzerland with my partner in mid September. There I got more done than I did in my first two seasons in. Chamonix and for your first trip, on a budget, that could be a good option. Why? The lifts are free, included in the 'citizen pass' from the second overnight stay of your trip. This includes most lifts (with the exception of one, which for a pass for 9 days, cost us not a lot more than a one day lift pass up to the Aiguille de Midi in Chamonix) and all buses in the valley. The peaks are accessible, plenty of easy 4000ers to get done, with harder stuff as well. We were aiming at AD routes and below, but for me the best route of the trip was the Weissmeis traverse at PD. Friendly area, easy to get to on plane plus train then bus. Plenty of alpine rock ridges to do, via ferrata, walking and sport climbing in the valley for rest days...on that note, 4 days is definitely too short. You won't be able to to be 'on' for all of those days, and will need rest days, couple that with potential bad weather and you might only get one route done, so better off sticking in the uk and going up to Scotland or something for 4 days.
Not to say that Chamonix isn't a cool place; it is, but the Alps is so much more than that as well, and it's easy to overlook that! Another shout for Arolla in this article http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=6372
In reply to dominic5567:
Should point out that we stayed on a campsite in Saas Grund. Saas fee = expensive for accommodation. They both come under the 'Saas citizen pass area and are 5 mins away from each other on the bus.
Should point out that we stayed on a campsite in Saas Grund. Saas fee = expensive for accommodation. They both come under the 'Saas citizen pass area and are 5 mins away from each other on the bus.
In reply to lizard-16-07:
If you do want to stay in Sass Fee, the bunkhouse in the Hotel Imseng is about the cheapest and best value option. It includes a very good, all-you-can-eat breakfast, which brings its cost close to campsite costs in Sass Grund.
All of the Sass valley is pretty expensive though, as is Switzerland generally.
If you do want to stay in Sass Fee, the bunkhouse in the Hotel Imseng is about the cheapest and best value option. It includes a very good, all-you-can-eat breakfast, which brings its cost close to campsite costs in Sass Grund.
All of the Sass valley is pretty expensive though, as is Switzerland generally.
In reply to lizard-16-07:
As everyone has said 4 days is too short really, even with 5 you would be pushing it, but more realistic.
Chamonix has its perks, lifts to get you high, but its pushing acclimatisation to head up to the valley blanche and stay a couple of nights up there doing routes, so not recommended.
Sass is a great valley for beginner alpine routes of great quality but in the time frame again not really sensible. You could get possibly 2 alpine routes in 5 days just if everything is perfect.
Arolla is superb, base yourselves at the dix hut and get a couple of things done at least.
My recommendation in good weather in a 4 day time frame is go up to the moiry glacier and practice skills going up to the mountains around it. They are at a sensible altitude, not too difficult but should give you most of the skills needed to go to one of the other places and do longer routes up to AD when you have more time.
As everyone has said 4 days is too short really, even with 5 you would be pushing it, but more realistic.
Chamonix has its perks, lifts to get you high, but its pushing acclimatisation to head up to the valley blanche and stay a couple of nights up there doing routes, so not recommended.
Sass is a great valley for beginner alpine routes of great quality but in the time frame again not really sensible. You could get possibly 2 alpine routes in 5 days just if everything is perfect.
Arolla is superb, base yourselves at the dix hut and get a couple of things done at least.
My recommendation in good weather in a 4 day time frame is go up to the moiry glacier and practice skills going up to the mountains around it. They are at a sensible altitude, not too difficult but should give you most of the skills needed to go to one of the other places and do longer routes up to AD when you have more time.
In reply to dominic5567:
I've just returned from a short trip to Les Diablerets in Switzerland, where we found good snow conditions for this time of year and equally good weather to climb the local peak (although this is only c.3,200m and not much of a technical challenge). I guess you never really know what the conditions will be like at this time of year, so gambling on a 4 day trip is unlikely to yield results.
I agree with the comments above concerning Chamonix, in so far as I don't think it would be the best place to go for a first trip - lots of people and not many friendly high peaks. Saas is a great option, but Switzerland is expensive. As an alternative, I like Gressoney and Alagna, which give good access to the Monte Rosa peaks. You can fly to Malpensa or Turin, but you might need to hire a car.
Finally, just to mix it up a bit, why not try the Atlas Mountains in Morocco? I went in December 2012 on a £90 return flight and had a great time. Costs can be kept low and the mountains are usually very snowy by then. Although there aren't any glaciers, there are a few 4,000m peaks and a variety of routes to choose from.
I've just returned from a short trip to Les Diablerets in Switzerland, where we found good snow conditions for this time of year and equally good weather to climb the local peak (although this is only c.3,200m and not much of a technical challenge). I guess you never really know what the conditions will be like at this time of year, so gambling on a 4 day trip is unlikely to yield results.
I agree with the comments above concerning Chamonix, in so far as I don't think it would be the best place to go for a first trip - lots of people and not many friendly high peaks. Saas is a great option, but Switzerland is expensive. As an alternative, I like Gressoney and Alagna, which give good access to the Monte Rosa peaks. You can fly to Malpensa or Turin, but you might need to hire a car.
Finally, just to mix it up a bit, why not try the Atlas Mountains in Morocco? I went in December 2012 on a £90 return flight and had a great time. Costs can be kept low and the mountains are usually very snowy by then. Although there aren't any glaciers, there are a few 4,000m peaks and a variety of routes to choose from.
In reply to dominic5567:
Alpine weather is unpredictable. I have been 3 times to Chamonix, in early July, mid August and mid September. Weather was superb for all 3 trips, yet UKC was full of doom and gloom either side of all 3 trips. Well, there you go, I have been very fortunate.
Early July would be my choice, Early/mid Sept comes a close second - Chamonix is a good choice then but check cable cars etc...though our 'best' route (most sense of achievement) was 'breaking trail' (because the Cable car was still closed for winter maintenance) up to Aig des Grand Montets via a route overlooking the snout of the Glacier D'Argentiere
I like the area around Aig du Tour.
7 days minimum and I'd drive, so I could be flexible and take off for where the good weather might be.
Alpine weather is unpredictable. I have been 3 times to Chamonix, in early July, mid August and mid September. Weather was superb for all 3 trips, yet UKC was full of doom and gloom either side of all 3 trips. Well, there you go, I have been very fortunate.
Early July would be my choice, Early/mid Sept comes a close second - Chamonix is a good choice then but check cable cars etc...though our 'best' route (most sense of achievement) was 'breaking trail' (because the Cable car was still closed for winter maintenance) up to Aig des Grand Montets via a route overlooking the snout of the Glacier D'Argentiere
I like the area around Aig du Tour.
7 days minimum and I'd drive, so I could be flexible and take off for where the good weather might be.
In reply to Nigel Modern:
Standard for UKC is, in my experience, loads of doom and gloom "Hurr we've been here and it's been rainy nobody is doing routes" then you go out and have the best season ever.
Bad conditions mainly exist in people's heads.
Standard for UKC is, in my experience, loads of doom and gloom "Hurr we've been here and it's been rainy nobody is doing routes" then you go out and have the best season ever.
Bad conditions mainly exist in people's heads.
In reply to Ed Saint:
However peak-bagging may not be what the OP is after ( he didn't say ). I specifically chose Chamonix because I was more interested in technical objectives than in bagging 4000ers.
> I agree with the comments above concerning Chamonix, in so far as I don't think it would be the best place to go for a first trip - lots of people and not many friendly high peaks.
However peak-bagging may not be what the OP is after ( he didn't say ). I specifically chose Chamonix because I was more interested in technical objectives than in bagging 4000ers.
In reply to dominic5567:
Go, Enjoy, cry, beat up your partner...learn.
At the end of the day, you can take all the advice in the world. It will only source to confuse you. The best thing you can do is get out there. figure it out and learn from the experience. so that when you go back. you will be wiser and more efficient for it. I think they call it experiential learning. it's the way forward.
All though. November might not be the best time...but does it really matter? you may get amazing conditions or crappy conditions ANY time of the year. so go for it!
The best advice ever given with short trips to the alps...plan what you want to do...and have a back up plan for it. other than that. it's all just experimenting. so long as you're not being a tw*t...you'll be fine
Go, Enjoy, cry, beat up your partner...learn.
At the end of the day, you can take all the advice in the world. It will only source to confuse you. The best thing you can do is get out there. figure it out and learn from the experience. so that when you go back. you will be wiser and more efficient for it. I think they call it experiential learning. it's the way forward.
All though. November might not be the best time...but does it really matter? you may get amazing conditions or crappy conditions ANY time of the year. so go for it!
The best advice ever given with short trips to the alps...plan what you want to do...and have a back up plan for it. other than that. it's all just experimenting. so long as you're not being a tw*t...you'll be fine
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