UKC

They say we will eventually become a cashless society. Surely this will effect the poor more than anyone else. Will beggars and buskers have contactless card payment points?

In reply to JM:

Nah - whilst there are major glitches in the banking system (and there always will be) there will always be a need for cash. We saw what happened when they tried to remove the cheque. It failed miserably.

In reply to JM:

Someone in Reykjavik this summer told me that people only go to cashpoints in Iceland if they're foreign or buying drugs...

In reply to JM:


Cash will effectively disappear then cards will go the same way. Mobile phones and/or smart watches will eventually replace house keys and car keys as well as cash and credit cards.

It'll happen slowly as people realise that if they have their phone they don't really need the other junk in their pocket.

It will be made easy to do small informal payments e.g. select an amount of money then hold your phone next to the other person's phone and shake it.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Yeah you are probably right. The reason I thought about this was that I passed a busker playing the accordion before and I thought even if I wanted to give him some change I didn't have any on me and I rarely carry cash anymore anyway. Therefore, if no one really carried cash people like him would lose out. So in the future he will put his smart phone in his cap and I will have to bend down to swipe mine over his to make a payment?

In reply to JM:

And if the beggar/busker was too poor to afford a smart phone?

In reply to JM:

I think we'll get to a cashless point eventually. For most, smart phones are whatever the next gen all in one gadget is will do the day to day small translations with a swipe, maybe sub £20 things. Then for anything larger you type it in.

But to insure people who can't afford such devices are not left out maybe everyone can be assigned a default bank account with a unique number at birth. So said busker / homeless person can just have a cardboard sign up with his number on for donations. When he goes to a shop (ideally to buy a smart phone and save everyone future hassle) he can enter his name and unique code and it'll just deduct the cost from his credited account.

Just seems a bit old school to have paper notes from the bank saying I promise to give you £10 on demand when everything is digital these days. We had coins in Roman times, not a lot has changed yet.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

There are people in the country who are not meant to be here and we don't know where they were born and the people who assign the bank account number would struggle to do it. They would have no access to this electronic currency. No matter which way you look at it the people who drop out of society would have no access to currency and would have to exchange "services" for goods or steal it.

In reply to JM:

If we have a cashless society how will I hide my money under the mattress?

been paying with bitcoins/dogecoin on my smartphone for a while now, cashless society is already on its way

In reply to JM:


All the better system for making people who are not meant to be here go somewhere else.

In reply to JM:


Not necessarily. Bitcoin for example could replace cash pretty effectively.

The banks will always push for cashless transactions as they make a percentage on every electronic card purchase that is made.

In reply to JM:


Or use cash? And it isn't just the poor who like using cash.

It is interesting. Apple are launching a new pay system but businesses are not too interested in signing up to is because it is too anonymous and they can't collect data about the people using it to buy their products.

In reply to RomTheBear:


So could the ByEek coin. Money is merely a token. Anything will do. But people like cash and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

In reply to ByEek:

I think they'll like cash even more when they can have it in electronic form in their smartphone instead of these inconvenient pieces of metal and paper. I almost never use cash unless I have no other choice.
Even to buy illegal drugs you can get away with it using bitcoins these days,

In reply to RomTheBear:


Until your smartphone gets broken and you're completely stuffed?

In reply to owlart:


I heard Jimmy Wales on the Radio the other week talking about the £10 smart phone, likely to be available in the next couple of years. He was talking about it in a developing world context, but the fact remains that for us to be virtually cashless as a society, the consumer technology to support it needs to be affordable to virtually everyone.

In reply to JM: i only use cash when i'm going drinking.

I haven't used a cheque in 15 years. I'm astonished anyone thinks they're a good idea

In reply to Ridge:


Same with cash if it's all you have if you lose it you're stuffed.

In reply to RomTheBear:

Cash is far easier to replace than a phone, you can have odd bits of it stashed in rucksacks etc in case of emergency. You'd be seriously loaded if you have a spare smartphone or two in a drawer at home, just in case.
I agree it's convenient to use a phone in some circumstances, but cash is a far more robust piece of technology.

In reply to RomTheBear:


Flat battery, broken screen, waterlogged, no signal.
All common problems with phones (or any tech for that matter) that you don't have with cash.

I tend to use my card for 99.9% of transactions but always have an emergency £20 in my wallet just incase.

In reply to JM: it's not the phone that has the cash, it's the account. I assume you've never put your paper cash though the Washington machine, or lost it? You get use to not carrying cash very quickly.

In reply to wbo:



My running club deals almost entirely in cash and cheques. We have got the committee to accept electronic race entries in the last few years and as of this month accept annual subs electronically, but part of the problem is the sort of accounts that banks allow clubs to have, which are light years from what we are used to in personal and business banking.

In reply to JM: wow.

Serious q - apart from the us and uk , which countries use cheques? I'm in norway.

In reply to wbo:
France still use them - you see people in supermarkets issuing cheques

Ps I use cash, credit card and internet, they all have their uses.

In reply to wbo:


How does that work when you can't get a data signal?

In reply to wbo:


They're a useful way of sending money to, or receiving money from old people who don't know how to use computers and handy for paying tradesmen.

In reply to Ridge:

Yep. For the same reason books are still going strong - electronic isn't necessarily better technology.

In reply to JM:

Interesting thought about a cashless society and to be honest it probably will become the norm sooner rather than later.

Just thinking at present I can go weeks/months without seeing cash. I don't even have a wallet just a mobile and a bank card in my pocket.

The vast majority of my payments are

Chip and Pin
Contactless
Paym (mobile to mobile money transfers)
Specific App that can be preloaded with money etc. Lunch time at work I like to eat at a certain places that have apps that you load with money. To pay you then just scan the barcode on the phone screen saves having to carry a wallet or cash etc.
Paypal I have been in loads of shops that allow you to pay with paypal at the till
Mobile card readers (I have been to many markets recently were the stall holders has a card reader attached to mobiles)
Bank transfers great now that all banks use faster payments etc
When parking in Liverpool city centre I pay using my mobile, no need for cash just phone or text your car reg and bingo parking is sorted.

Then cash after that. The only time I really carry cash is on a night out but I have found myself asking more and more retailers if they accept card or phone payments. If they don't I usually move on. However living in a modern city the majority of places permit a near enough cash free lifestyle.

Heck I don't even need cash to take the bus or train anymore plus lots of taxis are now accepting card payments.

Cashless society, one day it might be the reality.

In reply to pec:

Indeed - I'm tech savvy and love contactless payment, but how the fcuk am I going to pay the milkman without a cheque book?

In reply to JM:

I normally like cash in hand when I work on the black economy. Will there be a virtual cash in hand option for folks to supplement their benefits? If not, I'm against the whole scheme.

In reply to Removed User:

Like many pay for papers.. he sets up an online system..

In NZ I never used cash, wellington was pretty much cashless..

In the US I've not had cash for 2 weeks I think, I just use my card.

Once you get used to cashless it's hard to go back.

In reply to birdie num num:


This is my issue with cashless.. how can the honest guy doing a hard days graft survive if he has to start paying VAT…. the immigrants won't pay tax why should the natives?

In reply to JM:

Do many people use their phones at the moment to pay for stuff?

My phone has the feature, on paper, but I don't think it is possible to do yet in the UK. Android user.

I use my Debit card more and more for the small stuff, including buying drinks at the bar

In reply to The Lemming: > I use my Debit card more and more for the small stuff, including buying drinks at the bar

So you are that annoying person; just give the barman a score and get change from a dyke and be normal like the rest of us.

In reply to JM:

Anybody considered how secure these small transactions are?

Or how easy it is to steal/clone a phone's details for fraudulent activities?

In reply to JM:

I always try and use cash with small traders - and I always try and use small traders if possible. Every time you pay with a card, the bank takes a cut.

In reply to Hooo:

Isn't it more for handling cash?

In reply to MG:


Is it? I'll have to ask them. Paying with a card is a faff though, so I hope not.

In reply to Dax H:


Your phone is not connecting to anything when doing a nfc payment and doesn't need a signal.
Basically it's exactly the same as a contactess debit or credit card except they are stored on your phone, basically the payment terminal sends a cryptographic challenge to the card/phone to verify it's genuine, and then it's the terminal that connects to the bank.

In reply to The Lemming:


Yes. According to the industry, they will be totally secure.
According to hackers - anything is possible.

I think there was a joke going round yesterday about Apple's new payment system and how a glitch meant it was charging people twice. But the system is so anonymous, there is no record of these payments so no refund can be made. Maybe a joke. Maybe real. You can however see it happening.

I am all for technology, but cash is one of those problems that doesn't really require a technological solution. I wouldn't even say there is a problem with money. Sure, there is a cost to using it, but that is called a cost of doing business and is included in the bottom line.

In reply to The Lemming:



It's very difficult, if its well implemented, in fact much more difficult than stealing cash or clone debit cards.
For example in the case of apple pay, it's a bit as if you kept your debit and credit cards in a vault that opens only with your fingerprint or your passcode. Much more secure than keeping them in your wallet.

In reply to ByEek:
How can there be "no record"? The money comes out of your bank, doesn't it?

It's only the same as using a debit card (either in the machine or contactless), isn't it?

In reply to Hooo:

Easier to avoid tax with cash of course....

In reply to ByEek:


Anyone who worked in a shop will know that the costs of handling cash are huge, first there is all the time lost during the payment process counting little coins, and then double checking the cash every night in every till, it can take hours if mistakes have been made and you need to do recounts.
And then there are all the cost associated with transporting and storing the cash securely.

It's just a huge waste of productivity and we should get rid of this archaic payment system, many countries are already almost there and we are probably a bit late.

In reply to RomTheBear:
I agree with all of that. But if the customer wants to use cash, then surely you add an additional charge onto the cost of whatever you are selling to cover the additional costs. There are surely machines that can count money really quickly?

If cashless transactions are so popular why do so many businesses charge credit card holders the transaction fee? I think I paid about £40 extra when I bought a holiday a couple of years ago.

In reply to MG:


Probably depends on what is meant by 'small trader'. For many truly small traders, a lot of the cash won't see the inside of a bank.

In reply to Ridge:



But I don't see the difference between having a phone and a spare traditional debit card with having cash and a debit card. In any case you'll have a backup.
And if you lose your wallet you'll probably lose all the cash in it, if I lose my phone no money is lost as my money is still in my bank account.

Personally I find myself more often having no cash on me that not having my phone around.

In reply to RomTheBear:

It is interesting that you talk about the cost of cash to business, but I am about to embark on a mobile phone purchase that will cost £28 a month. I also know quite a few students who only have a phone but no mobile internet access. There are then the millions who can't afford or don't want a smartphone. How will they pay for things? Sure - this will be a technology for some, but cash will be king.

When I was a student in the 90's, the big cashless technology was Mondex. It was great. It never took off. I note that contactless technology is fizzling away despite flume advertising and a big push from its proponents. This is but one more way of paying that some will use. However the mainstream will continue to use cash.

As I said above. It isn't really a problem that needs solving.

In reply to ByEek:


Indeed all this this adds up to the cost of what you are selling which is ultimately not good for the customer.
Sure there are machine that can count money quickly pay you need to pay for them and their maintenance so that cost goes to the bottom line or is passed on to the customer.


That's simply a rogue pricing strategy they are making a profit on the transaction fee to lower the price on display, it's simply a trick to con customers.

In reply to ByEek:

People have been able to get debit cards for free for ages already, and you don't need mobile internet access to pay for things with your phone. In fact you don't even need to have any network.



Well overall it's inefficient, impractical and costly and there is technology available to do away with it in most cases, so the amount of transactions made in cash will probably continue to decline.

In reply to RomTheBear:


Well sort of. Debit cards are about as inefficient as cash - more so even in some cases. And there is still a cost to the retailer (about 20p or so per transaction?) which is no doubt subtly passed onto the consumer.

I feel that this argument is more about the business owners than the consumer. Such technology will not see prices fall, but profits rise as a result of greater efficiencies for the retailer.

In reply to JM:

Will paypal change how we buy stuff with small retailers?
Paypal are selling card-readers to make the process as pain-free for everybody
https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/credit-card-reader

I can already buy stuff via paypal and send money to friends by sending a simple e-mail

In reply to ByEek:

Mobiles capable of running the technology will be super cheap within a few years. The people who now only have basic £10 phones, will have basic £10 smart phones.

In reply to Hooo:

Cash handling charges are normally around 1%
Credit card fees are normally around 1-2%
Debit card fees are a much smaller percentage plus a fixed fee, hence lots of places saying there is a minimum spend for debit cards.

So I want people to pay for small things in cash (eg entry to the Works) but pay for big things on debit card (eg a pair of boots from the shop). Of course that is not how people work, credit is often used for big things and debit for small things. And the banks/card companies know this and this is why the charges are set this way

In reply to The New NickB:


So let us imagine that I am very poor i.e. my income is less than £100 a week. Even if you can buy a smartphone for £10 (and I can't see why it is in any manufacturers interest to produce them at that price when so many of their customers are happy to pay £500+ for one), I still have to pay for some sort of connection. So I put it you you - what is in it for me? My cash works perfectly well for me right now. What benefit do I as a low income person get?

In reply to RomTheBear:

I think that you are forgetting that the people who are driving us towards cashless are those that will profit from the move ie the banks that own the card companies etc.

In reply to JM:

Anybody actually using a tap-and-pay android phone at the moment?

In reply to ByEek:

In answer to part one of your question. It massively expands the market, the reality is globally, most people are not buying £500 smart phones now.

In answer to part two, they are unlikely to have much choice.

In reply to Graeme Alderson:


Well yeah when the car was invented the car companies pushed people to buy cars and profited from it, still cars are a lot better than carts pulled by horses.

In reply to Graeme Alderson:



Credit card fees charged by MasterCard and Visa were about 0.9% and now because of the threat of EU regulation both companies are now charging 0.3% for credit card and 0.2% for debit.

In reply to The New NickB:


I would say they absolutely do. As I said before, various forms of cashless payment have come and gone in the last 20 years. You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. It will be a brave retailer that stops accepting cash.

Just look at what happened when they tried to phase out the cheque - or charge £1 to withdraw cash. Talk about misreading the minds of the public.

In reply to ByEek:

How commonly are cheques actually used. I'm quite old fashioned with money, I use cash a lot, but I probably write a cheque less than once a year, before long that will be never.

Cash will disappear the same way, because most consumers will find it easier to use other methods, some people will be left behind.

In reply to RomTheBear:

And the costs of transport went up when the car arrived, as will the costs of spending cash once cash doesn't exist anymore. At the moment there is choice hence the costs are relatively low, once the choice goes the costs will increase.

In reply to RomTheBear:


Visa and Mastercard are not the people who charge retailers though, it is people like Streamline who take the money on the retailers behalf. These costs are much greater than what you are quoting. The average fee that I pay is 1.1% (based on monthly through put of about £30k on cards)/ Oh yes, plus the machine rental of course and the phone charges.

In reply to Graeme Alderson:


???? LOL

In reply to RomTheBear:

Think about it, the hidden costs as well as the obvious ones

In reply to Graeme Alderson:


Well, no sorry, I still don't see how the car somehow increased transport costs. If horses and carts were a cheaper way to transport things then we'll still be using them.

Back to the cash it's pretty much obvious that handling cash manually cost more than fully automated electronic transactions.

In reply to The New NickB:


Quite a lot. Or at least more than the banking industry thought. We pay our nursery by cheque because I don't trust them to spot my payments on their bank statements. I also paid a plumber by cheque last weekend. We have also paid various other bits and bobs by cheque and of course good old mumsy pops the odd cheque in the post from time to time.

I note that my debit card has one of those near field symbols on it. No idea how to use it or where. So I have the ability to pay using "new" technology but don't know how. This is the problem. The number one rule of marketing is that if you educate the consumer in how to use your product, you are going to be on a massive uphill struggle, regardless of how amazing the product.

I still haven't heard any of the proponents for a cashless society tell me what is in it for me as a consumer. My cash works fine thank you. How will my life be improved by not having something I understand very well indeed.

In reply to ByEek:



Anywhere where you see the same "near field" symbol as on your card, just put the card on the sign until it beeps. They start to pop up everywhere, mostly in fast food and coffee chains at the moment but more and more in convenience shops as well.


Hopefully lower prices as the cost of handling cash is removed, and less hassle trying to find a cash machine in the middle of nowhere simply to get a pint.

In reply to RomTheBear:


Is it though? I mean - have you actually totted it all up? We can quantify the cost of handling cash from a business point of view. It is mainly the time spent processing.

Calculating the cost of electronic transactions is much more complicated, but the costs to everyone in the system are there to be seen. So you have the massive investment required by the banking industry. There is then the cost to the business of implementing their own payment handling systems. For small businesses, this can be quite prohibitive although solutions are starting to seep into the marketplace. And finally, there is the cost to the consumer. If we all have to have a smartphone to use this technology, at present, you are looking at a cost of between £10 and £30 a month.

And then there are the real hidden costs. We have had a few major computer failures over the last few years which have had massive impacts on those who use those systems.

And finally, the cost of fraud. It is an unpublished figure (for obvious reasons) but I imagine it runs in the region of £350 million+ pre year.

So is the cost of electronic transactions really cheaper than cash?

In reply to ByEek:

Indeed, which is huge, plus the cost of transporting and storing that cash.


?? Banks have been giving contactless debit cards for free for ages already. Giving the possibility of loading your card on your smartphone if you have one is just another way to reduce even more costs.



And also quite a few robberies and stolen cash, tax avoidance and so on.


It it wasn't cheaper then we wouldn't be using it more and more.

In reply to RomTheBear:


No we use cars because they are more convenient.


Really, how do you work that one out. You provide some figures that are far from the whole story and you draw this conclusion.

When we were with Lloyds we paid 0.89% for cash to the bank, we changed to NW to lower these fees so we are now paying less than 0.5%. I gave you the average fee for cards and it is over double.

You also ignore the fact that cash gets recycled without ever getting near the bank eg I pay cash at the Post Office, this cash then gets given out in change/benefits/cash etc without ever incurring charges. This is obviously not true with electronic payments.

The banks decide what to charge us, currently internet banking tends to be free on a per transaction basis. But it is obviously not without cost. Irish banks charge 15c per transaction so obviously the actual cost is somewhere between zero and 15c. I wonder when the banks will start charging us here on a per transaction basis, maybe once cash ceases to exist perhaps.

In reply to RomTheBear:


It is convenient. You haven't proven the cheaper argument

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

?? what a joke really. Of course it's cheaper, otherwise don't you think we would see horses and cars everywhere transporting goods for cheap ?


And how much time and money did you spend counting coins, giving change, transport and store cash safely ?

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

It's cheaper because of basic common sense. It take more energy and more man hours to count coins and note and transport them from place to place safely using again more man hours and and fuel than sending a electronic instruction to a bank.

In reply to RomTheBear:

But they are not free are they? They are paid for by the extortionate charges banks levied on people who accidently go overdrawn.

Incidentally. I have just joined the lottery syndicate at work. £2 in. How would that work without cash?

I am not saying that electronic forms won't become more prevalent, but I don't foresee a day when there is no cash at all just as I don't see a day any time soon when cheques will be phased out. They all serve a useful purpose in their own right.

In reply to RomTheBear:


That is not an argument. You are stating that because someone has to sit down at an old fashioned desk and manually count money, that is more expensive than the billions the banking and retail sector have invested in very expensive computers and very expensive highly skilled people to commission, manage and operate said computers.

In reply to ByEek:

Well If having someone sitting a desk counting cash was cheaper than investing in IT infrastructure banks would be hiring lots of clerks instead of investing in IT, duh ! Sure a powerful computer and an IT guy is more expensive than a clerck and a desk, but it can do in one second more work than the clerk could do in a thousand years. It's really not that difficult to understand.

In reply to RomTheBear:
Bank twice a week, the bank is next to the Post Office, we sell on-line

We have a safe in which we not only keep money but also lots of important documents ie we would need a safe even if cashless albeit a smaller one. Oh and I need to keep the card machine administrator card in a secure place anyway

So transport and storage costs minimal.

Profit on a 25p Freddo (net value = 20.83p) if paid by Visa debit (net fee = 25p + fee of 3.85p to FDMS the card processor) = 8p LOSS

Do you accept this last bit, selling low value items cashless is bad for business?

In reply to RomTheBear:

Cards take at least as long though. Also 54p/5s is rather more than minimum wage!

In reply to MG:

Oops sorry !

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Of course you should now raise your prices for the 25p Freddo to 50p to maintain your profit and increase those of the bank. :-/ (Mmmmm Freddo's)

Resilience is a major advantage of a distributed model of money like cash. While Bitcoin has this there is still a reliance of technology to the individual. I can have two wallets easily, I can have my emergency £20 note in my work bag, I can't afford to have an emergency mobile phone to accept payments. I am unwilling to carry or buy two pieces of technology where one will do. Cash is pretty robust as a system.

Its the same problem I see with a univeral ID card system. In such cases the loss of this is (temporarily) catastrophic in nature. it does not degrade gracefully. if you lose your ID card you are effectively a non-person until you get another one. If you lose a bank card you cannot pay for things until you get another one. Losing a £20 note is rarely so catastrophic.

In reply to ByEek:


Simple paym ( mobile to mobile payments)

or

our syndicate plays online. every month we all pay a set amount via standing order in to the organisers bank account. They then buy tickets using an online account.

if we decide to buy an off the cuff ticket at short notice etc and no cash then you just pay via faster payments or mobile to mobile payments or similar. Obviously might depend on how many in syndicate we have 6 that sometimes expands to 40 in a secondary syndicate.

In reply to Dave B:



Indeed it is quite robust but overall you end having lots of people spending million of hours handling counting banknote and moving them around in armoured vehicles when they could be doing something better. Even though there is probably still space for cash my guess is that like in Sweden or other nordic countries it's going to be disappearing slowly.

In reply to MG:

Staff time is taken up no matter what the payment method is, with contact-less it is pretty small (5-10 seconds I guess), with cash it is is maybe 10-30 seconds, with PIN it is maybe a minute.

But with cash I get to keep most of the money taken to actually contribute to the running costs of the business (eg the wages we are talking about). With card payments I lose money on the transaction so don't even contribute to my overheads.

In reply to JM:

I needed a new bank card recently and was sent a contactless card, I called them up and got a non-contactless card sent out. A non-contactless card is more secure than a contactless card. I don't carry a mobile phone at all times and there are no banking apps on it. There are lots like me, we'll continue using cash and the rest of you can have your every purchase tracked
Perhaps the cheque for personal use is looking dodgy, although I used my chequebook two weeks ago I've only used it 3 times in 2 years.

I've come to the conclusion that a lot of new must have tech is just a lot of hype, I'm not interested.

In reply to drmarten:


And most of it isn't that new either.

In reply to drmarten:


+1

In reply to drmarten:

I wonder how much of it is a generation thing. Personally, I very rarely carry any cash on me not even an emergency 10 quid. I don't even own a wallet these days.

In my pockets I have a mobile and a contactless debit card and that's it. I just purchased lunch by scanning my phone and about to pay for on street parking with my mobile... who needs cash? Not me, well certainly not for 99% of my day to day activities

In reply to Alan M:

Earlier this year the Natwest computer system fell over for about a day if I remember right.
I found out things were not working after I filled my bike up and my card wouldn't work.
Not a problem though. I had cash in my wallet and paid with that instead.
Technology breaks, cash doesn't.
I can certainly see cashless being used more and more and will use it myself but I will also stick with some cash too.

In reply to Alan M:


Isn't that a prime example of cash being better for some things. Paying with a mobile involves a phone call, entering your car's number, your card number, how long you want to stay and the bay ID. 25 minutes later you might have paid. Or you can put in a couple of coins.

In reply to Dax H:




that happened to me also I paid with another banks card (though i did have to go home and get it) I suppose you cover yourself by having more than one payment method i bank with 2 different banks. I am usually carrying one of their cards and a phone etc. Any issues i have found have been easily fixed and not major issues.


Agreed but cash can go missing and never to be replaced. Fraud on cards and technology is insured, you get it back. It happened to me I got the tenner back within a few days compare that to realising you have lost or a pick pocket has taken that note you had in your pocket etc.

In reply to MG:


Not really i did it by text while walking to my appointment. No loss of time

In reply to MG:


That's an example of where cash is more usable and efficient than this specific mode of payment.

But for example if you could pay using contactless cards or simply with an app on your phone that would be much simpler than having to find a cash machine, go and buy packet a chewing gum with a £20 note to make some spare change for the machine, and then by the time you've done all that you can be certain that there is already a nice penalty notice on your windshield.

In reply to RomTheBear:

Exactly, i don't know what parking meters are like in other places but in this area very few accept notes. You need the right amount of coins and its never whole pounds, it always seems to be 80p £2.60 £3.10 etc. In those rare cases i have cash on me it will be in note form meaning I have to find somewhere to change it etc.

a few texts or a phone call while walking to an appointment is easier! Like you say contactless would make it easier again etc. There are a few parking machines that will take card payment about now though.

In reply to JM: or just put the card in the machine. I have paper cash in my wallet for an emergency, but it's been there months. Buying something with incurs the expensive of getting a load of change.

Still Friday tomorrow boys, i'm sure graeme and eek are looking forward to being paid in oh so convenient coins. Or would you rather have a cheques that should have cleared by next friday?

In reply to Alan M:


This is another reason why cash will never be phased out. Our local council made an additional £140k the other year in people not having the correct change for parking meters!

In reply to wbo:
Where do I say that I don't use internet banking? Where do I say that cash is more convenient? Where do I say that we should only use cash? The only time I mentioned a cheque was in reply to you when you asked if any countries still used cheques.

I have spent most of my time on this thread arguing with RomTheBear about the costs to business of cash vs cashless.

In reply to ByEek:


Now parking machines are serious cash handing, councils would love to go cashless for parking machines. I am sure it will happen soon.

In reply to wbo:

I am still paid by cheque at the end of each month. Apparently this is because a) it's quicker/easier than logging into the online banking system and making a transfer each month, and b) the money stays in the business account a few days longer!

In reply to Graeme Alderson:


That's exactly what I do, I'm your perfect customer!
Out if interest, do you accept contactless payments? It only seems to be available at the sort of shops I avoid. I've removed it from my cards, as I never have the opportunity to use it and it interfered with my Oyster card.

In reply to Hooo:


No you are not, you live in Sussex


No we don't. We are oop north and barely have electricity and inside toilets.

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Well, even in London it only appears to be big chains that use it. So cash is still king for small stuff from decent shops.

In reply to Hooo:

Big chains can negotiate better rates off the cards companies.

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Au contraire. When the temperature drops in the winter the toilets are the only area that feels like it is properly indoors.


(edit to add: That sentence seems all wrong, but I'm not sure how I could have put it better. Would the duty UKC grammar pedant please advise? ta.)

In reply to deepsoup:

Your problem is that it is in French

In reply to MG:
Pretentious? Moi?

In reply to deepsoup:

The office is always lovely and warm

And we did get gas heating installed in January, although I am not sure whether we have ever turned it on

In reply to Hooo:

I was on a trip to London last weekend and basically I didn't use any cash for the whole time despite moving around a lot and eating out every meal.
Every little newsagent has now a contactless card reader, oyster card for the transport, uber for taxis (uber is amazing BTW), pubs/cafes all take cards. It seems to me that at least in big cities you could pretty much function without any cash at all.

In reply to RomTheBear:

A lot of places still have card minimums. The card companies could address this by not having a flat-fee component to the fee for using cards. If they did, I'd use card for everything - cash is a nuisance.

Neil

In reply to RomTheBear:
And of course you don't need Oyster any more as your cashless card works the same (at the same cost per journey).

In reply to RomTheBear:



Well done. Give yourself a pat on the back. And just for a bit of contrast. I withdrew my last £50 for this month out on Friday. It paid for Fish and Chips (their debit card reader had broken), lunch in a cafe (cash only), swimming (card payments of £10 and over only), model railway exhibition (cash only) and my taxi to the station this morning (cash only). I use cards a lot, but there are some things only money can buy.

In reply to ByEek:

Taxis are such an oddity - such a high value transaction yet often cash only.

Neil

In reply to ByEek:

I never have cash on me, and so if a place doesn't take cards I just go somewhere else. I don't have a fancy phone that can do payments, but I don't think that has particularly reached us yet anyway. I sold some stuff recently and got paid cash, and in my mind it wasn't real money. If it doesn't appear on my online bank account then it doesn't come into my budgeting. My bank account is totally online, and I don't know if I can even put cash into it. So effectively, I felt like I had gained nothing from selling the stuff! Maybe it's a generational thing, by the time I was 18 and living independantly you rarely needed cash, so I have never been in the habit of carrying it.

In reply to Neil Williams:


Speaking to the chap this morning, it is rather cut throat. I have been getting a taxi in Stockport at 4.45am (not the busiest time of day) on a Monday morning now since July and haven't had the same driver twice yet! And businesses love cash in hand because what the tax man doesn't see, the tax man doesn't need to know about.

In reply to ByEek:

I guess it depends where you are, where I normally live I also use cash cause there is no choice, but in central London I am always surprised that most of my friends there don't even carry wallets anymore, they just have these small plastic cards holders.

I guess the main downside is that it's more difficult to control your spending when all you have to do is beep a card

In reply to RomTheBear:


Yes - that is definitely one of the downsides. I have tried using a budget tracker on my phone but it is a royal pain in the arse when you have to add every transaction as you go along. If you have a pocket full of cash, when it is gone, you can't spend any more - simple as.

In reply to ByEek:

Just asked the apprentice about this, he doesn't carry cash because once it's in his pocket it get frittered away.

In reply to JM:

20 years ago, they said we'd soon have the paper-less office. I write this from my office desk, surrounded by big files filled with paper.

In reply to Jimbo C:

Yep. I also remember my physics GCSE text proclaiming that we only had 30-40 years of oil left. And that was in 1992!

In reply to ByEek:

I have long suspected that is indeed the reason.

Neil

In reply to Jimbo C:

To be fair some jobs are - my job in IT is pretty much paperless. Though we do still fire print-format PDFs and DOCs around the place even though most of them will never be printed. I think people just like the print analogy.

Neil

In reply to ByEek:


An option to show a running balance after every transaction is an obvious thing for a phone based payment system to do: when the phone puts up a picture of the card you are using it could have your balance superimposed on it. I wonder if Apple and Google are intentionally not doing this because they have research that people really don't like being reminded of their credit card balance.

In reply to ByEek:

Card payments in taxis will become the norm New York and Stockholm are two examples. Here on Merseyside some of the newer taxis are now accepting card payments. I was in London a few weeks ago again many taxis accepted card also. I also believe that TfL have a consultation on this very thing at the moment which if approved it will be compulsory for all London black cabs to take card payments. (If i remember correctly)

They will eventually spread throughout the country.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


I doubt they are doing it mainly because their business model for this sort of technology is to buy a company that has already taken the risk and proved the technology. What you are talking about is currently flawed, mainly because the number of transactions performed by phone is so minute and is one of a number of ways of performing transactions.

It still doesn't help ones budgeting mindset though. A figure on the screen is not the same as having to do without that 60p chocolate bar because you only have 50p in your pocket.

In reply to Alan M:

Agreed. But I think we are a way off in Stockport. I used to tip taxi drivers when I was spending company money, but now I am spending my own money I never tip. My fare is £8.10 and when I ask for a receipt, you would be amazed at the number of drivers who assume you don't want any change from £10. I can see that when it comes in, they will try it on for card payments by either adding a random fee on the top or saying that their card reader has broken and they can only accept cash.

In reply to ByEek:


I believe the London plan is to take account of the transaction fee in the general pricing so regardless of how you pay you pay the same rate for the journey. Will probably see all prices rise. That should stop any driver trying to rip people off as the meter rate is the rate regardless of the payment method.

I agree I'm always amazed when I hand over a tenner for a journey costing £7 or £8 and there's an awkward pause before the driver hands the change back. Mainly find it with the street cabs around here and not private hire.

In reply to Alan M:

I'm not sure it will become the norm everywhere. Out in the sticks where I am 3G, (or even any mobile signal), is a bonus, and the networks are now focused on rolling out 4G in population centres than expanding the mobile network.

If there's no data comms then taxis, (and many shops round here), won't be accepting cashless payments.

In reply to Ridge:
You are totally correct for the next few years but I think as the years progress the technology will become the norm. I am not saying in 5 years time but certainly 10 to 20+ years in the future etc.

There is no reason why any UK habitable area does not have decent broadband or mobile signal etc other than investment reasons. It can be done, Sweden is doing it, their rural broadband infrastructure is brilliant ( from my experience)

We found wifi signals in remote areas while canoe camping in Northern Sweden. We had no idea where the signal was coming from. The area was more remote than any rural UK habitable area. We guessed that the odd cabin we found in the woods or next to the river must have been connected to the internet as there was no village etc within many miles of us.

In reply to Ridge:

There's a farm at the end of the road in Balquhidder which sells its own venison. I certainly have no phone signal there, I imagine most others don't either, but they would miss out on many sales if they didn't accept cards. So they do accept cards, and it's lovely at the end of a walk to come home with venison from the hills you have been on. So I am sure its people not bothered enough that don't accept cards, it seems to be possible if you want to.

In reply to Alan M:


Sadly though, in this country, that is a major hurdle. There has been quite a lot of noise recently from masts being removed from the countryside because they are no longer viable. I imagine Swedish remote broadband is subsidised by the government. I certainly can't see that happening here.

In reply to Alan M:

In Milton Keynes it always seemed to me that the private hire are very well behaved, while the black cabs are a law unto themselves, often refusing to use the meters etc. Quite a contrast to London, where it is often the other way round.

I reckon if Uber got in on the act in MK they'd kill the black cabs off completely because of this.

Neil

In reply to girlymonkey:

A business can still choose to use an old style manual card machine, or even just to write out the carbon paper slips by hand. The problem with this is that they lose if there is fraud, so few businesses are willing to do so other than as an emergency backup.

That said, all easyJet on board card transactions are done offline, you aren't allowed to have a device with a mobile signal turned on at 35000ft even in the unlikely event that it would work.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

This was a wired card machine. Businesses in the sticks have little option as they will miss out on passing trade if they can't take plastic!

In reply to ByEek:


Taxis are finished anyway I think Uber will take over pretty quickly unless they shut them down.

In reply to RomTheBear:

Taxis in liverpool are now competing with buses. The taxis register a timetable for set routes in the same way a bus operator has to. The taxi then stops at every bus stop on the route. You then just jump in to the taxi and share it with who ever else is in it or gets in and out at the stops etc. Its cheaper than taking the bus for the same route.

In reply to Alan M:

Sounds like what taxis have been doing in Athens for a long time now.

In reply to ByEek:


That's the thing with the UK we are actually quite far behind the times in many respects. I used a taxibus service in Turkey about 13 years ago. Very few UK cities offer the service.

In reply to Alan M:


I don't think we should get ahead of ourselves here. Let us not forget that there is probably a good reason for the lack of taxi buses in this country, specifically the high level of car ownership. I can see how services like Uber will be very popular in dense urban centres like London, but I can't see it replacing the local rural taxi firm. Despite the technological issues faced by the countryside, Ubers business model is definitely focused on dense markets rather than the sparser markets presented by the countryside.

In reply to ByEek:
My understanding on merseyside atleast the problem with the development of taxibus services wasn't lack of demand it was the red tape and hoops to jump through to get permission from the traffic commissioner.

On merseyside bus use is declining (liverpool has now scrapped all but 4 of its bus lanes), train use is going up. The use of taxibus services is expanding on merseyside especially within the city area. Obviously different areas of the UK will have different needs

In reply to RomTheBear:

Did you use a black cab while you were there, and pay the 10% card fee?

In reply to JM:

Don't you need a bank account to receive State benefits?

Africa is showing us the way.....millions without any high tech stuff but can transfer money at the touch of a cheap mobile phone. If it becomes the way we do stuff then its adapt or die.

In reply to owlart:


You've been conned by the smartphone marketing people as millions of Africans are transferring money with the most basic of phones.

In reply to Hooo:

No, I pretty much use only uber in London. It's easily 50% cheaper, faster, and no need to have cash or even a card.

In reply to RomTheBear:

OK managed today with no cash as an experiment. Forgone 1 bacon roll as result. Probably no bad thing!