UKC

My wife and I are looking into moving to France next year, and I wondered whether anyone on UKC has made the move, or lives there?

I'm a writer by profession, so as long as I have internet access and it's not too far from an airport for trips back to the UK, I'm pretty flexible on location.

We are looking to buy a house, and while I can see a lot of the advantages, I'm sure there are some disadvantages too, so any info/advice would be most welcome.

I would add, that at present, our mastery of French is not good, but we would obviously look to learn the language.

In reply to NigeR:

There's quite a few of us, scattered pretty much across all of France. I live close to Paris (due to work) & although its good for airports, I wouldn't recommend it from a climbing point of view. Can't advise on buying but my experience on living here for some15 years is that speaking good French makes life much, much easier, both socially & for dealing with the administration, which isn't necessarily worse than the UK but is certainly different

In reply to NigeR:

I've been living in the French Alps (an hour south of Grenoble) for 3 years now. I work in IT and travel quite a bit (about 20+ times a year) out of Lyon airport which is quite a drive, but the days I work from home make up for it. Remember that just having an airport nearby is not enough - ideally you want somewhere with enough flights to be worthwhile (don't rely on a shed in a field served only by Ryanair that might stop flying next year).

Sounds like you're going to be self-employed. Get an accountant - I can recommend a good company based near Geneva who speak English (if you end up in that part of the country). There are lots of loopholes to be self-employed and it helps to have someone who can maximise your income and keep you on the right side of the law. I'm so glad to be permanently employed by a French company now though!

If you're looking at mountains (since this is a climbing forum) remember the winters will be tough and long (although this morning is an absolutely stunning, beautiful autumn day) and although chopping wood and burning it in a stove seems romantic, after a while the novelty of a chainsaw and an axe wears off and you want to stop wasting your time.

I live in an area with very few English speakers so its a good way to improve your French - it becomes enjoyable but hard work and certainly there's a barrier of understanding but on the whole the locals are quite accepting.

On the whole its one of those things where you can just pack up the car and drive - no visas or excessive paperwork to start with. I would maybe just caution on buying somewhere until you're sure of the location as buying/selling is an expensive proposition in France and not something you want to do a lot of.

Good luck.

In reply to NigeR:

As Doug says there are many of us expat climbers living in France, especially older climbers. Depending on your circumstances it is important to decide just why you want to move and make a wish list. We did that many years ago and for many reasons including the steep cost of houses, we immediately eliminated the Alps and came to look at the Eastern Pyrenees where it is less commercialized, cheaper but just as beautiful and the climbing is not too bad either. Make your list and prioritise it, look at areas that best meet your needs and jump into the car and come out to have a look. If you look at this forum you will see many people who have made the same decision. Good luck.

In reply to NigeR:

work out how you are going to make your application for your carte vital before you leave England. English settlers often don't understand the huge amount of documentation, hassle and cost involved as well as the wait. Self employed means its probably going to take you two years.

Everything else is manageable. Opening bank accounts, taking out French insurances, running a car and so on. The systems are different but no more difficult. My tip would be, be prepared for a huge amount of form filling and the French like everything in triplicate. (This is where the language becomes important)
Remember to take with you:
driving licence
birth certificate
marriage certificate
EHIC card (apply and get this before you leave the UK)
Originals of car insurance (in French) and registration documents which must be kept in your car along with your driving licence.

In reply to NigeR:

I lived in France for three years but never bought property there. All I would say is: don't sell everything in the UK and spend it on a broken down shack which is beyond economic repair and where no self-respecting French person wants to live. There's a reason why French people abandon old farms.

In reply to NigeR:

As said above if you will be self employed check out the financial aspects first, self employed get hammered by social charges, reckon on paying getting on for half of what you earn, and that's not even counting income tax.

As you haven't, apparently, made up your mind where you will live I think that is a major decision and depends a lot on what you are looking for, Paris is expensive for housing, perhaps slightly less than London but not much, elsewhere is very variable - Burgundy is not expensive and quite pleasant, a bit of climbing, for example, Alpine areas and the South are dear and you'll find places vary more than in Britain - some country places really are country! As house buying in expensive - 8% tax, agencies charge a further 6 to 8% - you want to be sure before you buy.

It's a big country, taxes are high, bureaucracy is pretty horrendous, I'm surprised some say it's no worse than Britain, I've been battling with it for 40 years and speak French You don't say if you have children, if you do think about education, France isn't brilliant, we have three and it's often been heavy going, although at least most is free.

In reply to NigeR:

Thanks for all the responses folks, much appreciated.

To clarify my profession, I write novels, under two different pseudonyms - one for the children's/young adults market, and one for the adult market, and my publisher is UK based for both E-Books and Hard/Paperbacks.

I am obviously going to talk to both my publisher and accountant regarding how my income will be taxed should I move to France, but I have no intention of giving the French government over half my income - I'll move everything offshore if I have too first.

The idea of a move to France is for a better way of life, and entering semi-retirement, but I have to say that all the stories I hear about French bureaucracy do worry me.

As well as buying a property outright with no need for a mortgage, we would also be putting a reasonably large amount of cash on deposit in the bank.

As for location, it doesn't have to be that near to a climbing area, though access within a couple of hours drive would be good, and we are looking at more of a semi-rural area - can't stand cities for anything more than a visit. I was under the impression that allowing @15% on top of the purchase price would cover the necessary expenses involved?

Living in Kent, means we have quite easy access to France, and we are planning some serious research and trips to find the right area before making any kind of decision. Access to an airport, is primarily so our (grown-up) kids can get to visit us regularly.

In reply to NigeR:



I hear that the French are very welcoming to British writers - here's an interview I caught on French radio:

http://yourlisten.com/jonstew/antinovel

In reply to NigeR:
The others have covered most things, but I'd say to be careful about a semi-rural location. Even 30km from a big city can be extremely rural, and it'd be easy to get stuck in a small village with a very limited circle of people to talk to.

Also, if you are heading close to retirement then you don't want to be making 4hour round trips several times a week for medical appointments, should that be required.

On a happier note, it sounds like you are going to have a lot of fun searching out the area that's right for you both. France is big enough that the "French way of life" is quite different from one area to another.

Edit: forgot to mention - I'm right down in the south, near Montpellier. Feel free to e-mail if you'd like any local info.

In reply to NigeR:
My sister lives in France.
Things I have picked up from her;
French bureaucracy can be crazy - some stuff is simpler just go see the local mayor, but stuff you think would be simple is very very complicated and can only be completed on the 3rd Thursday of the month when the correct moon is shining or something. You will lose the will to live and require paperwork you didn't know exists.

French number plates on your car may make life easier and will make the locals less likely to treat you as an annoying tourist.

Learn the language and go to the local events. Don't spend all your time with the other expats if you want your language skills to improve fast.

Certain things (paint and diy supplies in particular) are very expensive compared to the uk.

In reply to marsbar:




I disagree about the French number plates. Lots of French people own English cars with English number plates, though they do have to be registered in France after six months if you are not back and forth to the UK with the vehicle. The French love English cars because they are very cheap (second hand) compared to French cars and English number plates means you are less likely to be pulled over by the police. What I would say is, unless you are in one of the bigger cities, the French don't appreciate foreigners showing off in big flash cars. Just as many British judge you on the sort of car you drive, so do the French but unlike the British, the older and more dilapidated your car is, the more they will warm to you

I agree about DIY products being expensive. Its the same with furniture and household goods. You can though, order just about anything from Amazon and Ebay and hate it or not, Ikea runs on a par with British prices.

In reply to DaCat:

Can't say I've noticed either of these phenomena, the advantage of British plates is to avoid parking tickets etc but I think French reactions to foreign cars is akin to the same in Britain and as for paint etc you have to shop around - in hyper-brico-rama type places it's about the same as B&Q, on average, there are exceptions. From time to time I buy gear in France for people in Britain and vice versa. It depends a lot on the exchange rate. At present its about 1.27 €./£ but its been down to nearly 1 and up to 1.5 so you can see the difference. Diesel is still cheaper in France but I don't think petrol is much different. Food doesn't seem much different, again on average. Wine and alcohol are still cheaper.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


Have to agree. We moved over here with a left-hand drive Passat with UK plates and drove around for 4-5 months before getting them changed to local ones. Never noticed a difference in how we were treated.

The big issue is if you have wrong departement number on your car, and are picking mushrooms this time of year some of the locals may take umbrage at incomers on their patch.

In reply to NigeR:

Best of luck - there's no PAYE in France so everyone submits tax returns and therefore minimising your burden is a national sport. However if you spend the majority of your time in France (183 days I think) then you are taxable on worldwide income in France. Its not a place to come if you don't want to minimise your tax bill .

In reply to Rigid Raider:


I think my wife's sister and husband have one of those, it was cheap needed loads of work, leaking roof, chimney not working, poor heating, complete redecoration and an acre of grass to mow every week. Since purchasing 3 years ago they have changed their minds about what they wanted to do and now, at least it seems to me, they are pretty much stuck with it, unless they were prepared to sell at a loss, which I don't think they can afford to do. Its good advice not to rush into the dream.

In reply to DaCat:
To be fair she lives in a very very touristy area. It is quite annoying for those who don't wish to spend their entire day stuck behind people driving very slowly looking at the pretty chateaux and not really sure which side of the road is which.

She is probably too far from England for the locals to buy English cars.

She did have someone shout at her and call her names, until she shouted back in fluent French, and we did have an incident in my English car where someone (not a local from his dept plates) told me I wasn't allowed to park somewhere. Maybe its worse for women, perhaps English men don't have this issue?

Oh and neither of us have posh cars.

As for the police thing, I recall somewhere near Font the police stopping all foreign cars to check for bulbs and jackets and such.

In reply to NigeR:

We groan about the admin here, as well as various other aspects of france, but when we pause to consider returning to the UK it all seems quite tolerable

In reply to LeeWood:

And yet many do, we have been thinking of it for years and my wife's French. At present there are some complicated medical issues holding us back and my youngest son is still at university in France but otherwise we probably would. Our eldest daughter, born and educated in France would be nearer as she's in London and there's absolutely no way she would come back to Paris.... there's no work here, and getting less. Nothing to stop you nipping back and forth, which is what we do now.

In reply to marsbar:

There's an old joke in France:

What's the difference between the government and washing powder?
Washing powder has active agents

Sadly true.

Admin is weird, illogical and slow but my parents (late 50s) have done it with bad but effective French, and enough money. They have a UK based business but decided to domicile there because the increased tax was offset by no longer needing UK based private health care. They are happy in rural, non touristy France about a couple of hours south of Paris.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Indeed, we know several families who haver repatriated. We also know several others who have moved from too-quiet rural locations to more populace (ex-pat) regions. The disquiet largely stems from social dissatisfactions however - not admin problems.

In reply to LeeWood:

I tend to avoid ex-pats myself, all my family is French Getting on with French people on the personal level is not hard, just like anywhere you pick and choose, as do they.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I think you're a special case - you must have mastered argot - which being the final stage of language learning can be the blocker for meaningful social interactions.

Have you tried climbing with french partners? I once imagined this would be common ground but difference in procedures and ethics is significant to the point where I now hesitate to solicit such opportunities.

In reply to NigeR:

One other thing I would advise is, when you look for property, make sure you get to know the area before making a decision. Lots of towns, even small towns can have areas that are primarily 'Front National' and you won't be made welcome here. This is where chatting to other English settlers is useful. They will be able to point you in the direction of the more friendly areas.

In reply to LeeWood:
Don't think he's that exceptional in living in France with mostly French friends & French family. I've done quite a bit of climbing & ski touring with French friends, sure its a bit odd at times, but when I first moved here it was a good way of making friends & learning the language

In reply to DaCat:

this info is available on a map - maybe on the web; we consulted it when choosing

In reply to LeeWood:


Yes and a very instructive experience it was too, your really see how poor Brits are in Alpine environments.

In reply to DaCat:


As more and more Brits are UKIP, and many ex-pats are conservative in the extreme I don't think this is very valid nowadays! Anywat FN don't have a problem with white foreigners

In reply to NigeR:

can you afford to rent before taking the plunge? My dad has lived in france for about 10 years now and it seems like the property market is not as liquid as the English property market. Plus the fact that the English have a bit of a name in france for over-paying for houses compared to the local rate (my Dad's French friends often ask him if he knows any english people who would like to buy a house...) so you might end up over-paying on the way in which wil make it harder to sell on the way out.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


My neighbour, when we lived in Vallorcine, said to me once 'You're not a foreigner, you're white.' He then went on to say 'There's nothing wrong with Le Pen, he just doesn't like Arabs, that's all.'

In reply to jon:

Getting on here is not so much to do with party politics anyway. In our village parisiens (and all other city people) are foreigners. To make yourself less foreign the first essential is to speak the language (I know of several instances where folk (esp the men) simply do not bother).

Next is to behave as the locals do - in some way. They don't like folk who obviously have too much money - helpful to be seen working - hard; taking over and restoring an old building is helpful, but not if you bring all the materials and workforce from england (as some do).

Recreationally, take up hunting, petanque, mushroom hunting. Go to the village fêtes. We don't do any of that but have another saving grace - contributed a child for the school and village community.

To conclude, make yourself less foriegn by being seen, known, mucking in and sharing in the community.

In reply to jon:

Foreigner around here seems to mean anyone from the other side of Foix. Apparently people from other parts of France have similar difficulty integrating as Brits or any other nationality. It's just a very local-centric society.

Having a child certainly helped a lot, as did building a training wall and letting the neighbour's children use it (accompanied) whenever they want. The Mayor's kids too - now there's a plus! But village fêtes are always awkward as they're invariably focused on the consumption of some formerly-sentient beings I'd prefer not to eat! We try to join in with at least a few from time to time anyway.

In reply to LeeWood:

Thanks Lee, I'll bear that in mind.

In reply to john arran:

I did see a lonely falafal vendor at the last event I went to which was a surprise. My sister's village has a thing every month in the summer where they put communal tables in the field and invite all the different food people and the local wine maker to have stalls or park their vans up and cook. Great way to get to know people and eat nice food. Probably the only vegetarian option ever!

In reply to marsbar:

Wow a falafel vendor I'm jealous. Yes, I too am discouraged from joining in the meat-centric feasts. In fact the mayor's wife is veggie also so there is some incentive to provide for 'special cases' !

In reply to LeeWood:


Astonishingly generous of you. I just bolted up a couple of hundred routes in the valley, which seemed to have a similar effect.

In reply to LeeWood:

I felt sorry for him, he wasn't getting much trade.

In reply to jon:

hehe - but how many of the locals will appreciate that? or is there a greater concentration of climbers in your commune?

In reply to LeeWood:


Jeez... have you never been to Chamonix! Probably the highest concentation in France. Actually Vallorcine is just over the col des Montets, 20 minutes away from the nonsense of Chamonix but has far better rock climbing. Lots of it. So yes, a large proportion of the population appreciate that. Now though, after 23 years in Vallorcine, we've moved to Provence. Eleven months of summer is somehow far more attractive than five months of winter!

In reply to NigeR:

We've been in the South of France for over two years now, and I still don't pretend to understand the French. The one thing I have learned, is that as a race, they are evenly balanced - they have chips on both shoulders!

Where we live has got a pretty high proportion of reasonably well off folk though, so we are not exposed to the more insular and nationalistic attitudes which you will probably encounter in other areas of France.

Bottom line is, the French and British have never been, and never will be, comfortable bed fellows - there's too much history between us.

The bureaucracy is verging on satire, the government (at both national and local level) is a basket case, and builders and the like are, in the majority of cases, the laziest, most unprofessional and inconsistent bunch of over-priced arrogant clowns you can imagine - even by UK standards.

On the plus side, the climate is bliss, the landscape stunning, and the climbing is not too bad either.

My French is still pathetic, but Mrs Goucho comes from the French/Italian border region, and therefore speaks the language fluently - does all the translation, and is also responsible for most of our friends. I'm just the grumpy old sod who everyone else sometimes tolerates

So if you're thinking about moving to France, think long and hard, because for every good thing, there are abundant bad things to counter balance it.

In fact in in our case, we have actually decided to move back to the UK. We will be buying a smaller place in the same area of France, but keep it purely as a holiday home.

In reply to jon:

Apologies I knew you were somewhere in the alps but didn't know you were so close to the action. Putting up new routes is a pretty cool way to interact with the community - are they worth my taking a trip over ??

In reply to Goucho:


But in fact the french are not so comfortable with 'themselves' even. Ou village (300 habitants) is split with local controversies. The latest centred on management of the village school, and parents defended the two sides with some vehemence. To us outsiders it didn't quite hang together until informed that the sides date back to war, and which families were on what side of the resistance.

In reply to NigeR:

If your French is as bad as mine then banking in French will be a nightmare.

Credit Agricole provide an English speaking banking service Credit Agricole Britline. It is based in Normandy but we have a house in the Languedoc and use them. You can use any branch of CA just like a normal account.

You get a normal cheque book and debit card but if you need to contact the bank there is always an English speaker to answer he phone and help you. Alternatively the on line banking is also in English.

It certainly made life a lot easier for us, we applied for the account before we bought an as long as you are looking to buy a place in France they seem happy to offer an account.

In reply to Andrew Lodge:

I use Credit Agricole too but have never seen the need to translate when I pay by cheque of card anyway, with or without French, but surely anyone would admit that if you move to another country long term then the least you can do is learn the language? Apart from the practical problems it's a question of respect.

The same with making French friends, how on earth can you do this if you don't speak the same language... shouting louder doesn't work... really!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


I don't know where you live but that is certainly not the case where I live. We know of an English couple who purchased a house in a part of the city that is well known amongst the locals for being FN. They survived miserably their for six months before selling the house for a loss and moving out of that area. It very much still happens.

In reply to DaCat:

Which city?

In reply to NigeR:

Thanks again for all the replies and comments.

Having now done a lot more research, and taken on board comments from a variety of sources (including here) we now think that maybe France is possibly not the ideal place for us to relocate.

So it looks like it's time to look at options 2 and 3 - Spain and Italy?

One thing is certain, learning the appropriate language seems to be a must

In reply to LeeWood:

Having done some of Jon's routes round Vallorcine, I can say definitely worth a trip over

In reply to Carless:

Why not give it a try first? You'll hit similar problems in Spain and Italy and similar benefits, but it will be a little hotter. It depends so much on what you are looking for. As you say though wherever you decide on you'll have to learn the language a bit, otherwise you could end up like a grumpy ex-pat groaning about how unfriendly the locals are

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I would agree that learning the language is essential but some banking terms can take a bit of understanding, it can be useful to be able to call the bank and get things explained

In reply to NigeR:



TBH I think you'll find more variation between regions within western Europeans countries than between countries themselves. In terms of bureaucracy/taxes it's all fairly similar.

It all depends what is it you are looking for really.

Yes learning language is a must, in France, Spain and Italy. Less so in other EU countries but still a must.

In reply to Carless:

Very nice of you to say so. Thanks.