UKC

This year, the vets category has been dropped by Harrogate climbing center in favour of a grade split; V0-V4 & V5+. After interim scores for the first round there's only two females in the higher grade competition and most of the male vets haven't entered this year. Is this a format that works in other walls?

http://www.harrogateclimbingcentre.com/category/winter-bouldering-league/

In reply to niddclimber:

Besides vets, what other professions or jobs are included in the competition?

In reply to The Lemming:

i think they let anyone in these days

@niddclimber the new format makes no sense to me. no-one likes it at the wall and entries seem well down on last year. i still entered though - more chance of winning what other sport events have an arbitrary cutoff in the middle of the ranking system. olympic sprint final for those who can't run 100m faster than 15 seconds?

In reply to niddclimber:

.. Could some one who climbs well above V4 just enter the VV0-4 class and win easily?

In reply to niddclimber:
I never quite got the age grade thing - in fact I was put off entering the first year because I didnt fancy being classed as a vet! but I agree the grade split idea seems a bit odd. I guess they are trying to find a way of encouraging less high grade climbers to take part as well as the wads.

In reply to niddclimber:

isn't it a bit like having a fun league and an open league?

At eden rock they have 4 (IIRC) categories and you choose what level you want to compete at, no vets either, AFAIK.

In reply to SteveM:

I thought it was to stop Nige having a free pass to every wall

In reply to JonathanJones:

nope, the wall are moderating the entries. in practice this means that I've been allocated to the v5 category cause i did some of those problems, even though i dropped 1 or 2 easier ones and would be doing really well in the v0-4. but that makes the division between the two categories subjective. so the wall staff are choosing who will win the easier category!

i don't have a gripe with that, i'm in the right category already but it doesn;t sit right, even as a friendly competition

In reply to winhill & pebbles:

+1 separate leagues for fun and wads seems more honest than the arbitary grade boundary - which bears no relation to either the relative nor absolute difficulty of the problems anyway.

In reply to SteveM:

Sounds pretty daft!

The only good approach I've seen to a competition that gives newbies a chance of winning is the Castle's Boulder Ladder, which gives the prize for the best month-to-month improvement instead of (or as well as?) the highest score overall.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

now that sounds more like it - excellent idea! then you could reward the improvers at every level

harrogate climbing have a slogan "we are all climbers"
maybe it should read "...but some of you only climb easier stuff up to an arbitary ceiling we've just invented"

In reply to niddclimber:

Harrogate should sort themselves out and listen to their customers. "We are all climbers" HAHAHA! Less entries = less sponsorship = lower prizes in the future. When is someone from Harrogate going to comment?

In reply to niddclimber:

the staff at the wall are bored of listening to us going on about it. i tweeted them this thread earlier this week - see http://www.twitter.com/badaltitude

In reply to niddclimber:

I'd like to say what you say is happening at Harrogate is not uncommon elsewhere and is appreciatred by many non vet regulars who don't climb high grades. Some even have had three categories...fun, intermediate and open.

In reply to Offwidth:

does ramblindave's idea of "best month-to-month improvement instead of (or as well as?) the highest score overall" work for you?

In reply to niddclimber:
Hi guys,

Apologies for the delay in posting. I've read the post with interest & take your points on board.

We have trialed this new layout for this year; it has been well received by everyone at our Manchester & Reading Centres, and many Harrogate customers too.

The focus of the competition is always to attract climbers of all abilities, and to allow for a competition where the winners are not guaranteed from the outset, i.e. the same people win every year, which isn't motivating to newer climbers, or those looking to move to the higher grades. We deliberately don't run elite competitions; there are plenty of those in the area and running across the UK, so the Winter Bouldering League certainly shouldn't be compared to an Olympic competition, which focuses purely on elite competitors.

It's worth noting that we have always given a prize for the best overall improvement from round to round, which is awarded at the grand final each year.

Having said that, it's clear from the comments in the thread that there are changes which could be made to make the competition at Harrogate more appealing to all our customers.

We have a few ideas which we will work into a solution and announce any changes to the competition early next week, once we have had chance to consider all the options and gain some face-to-face feedback with as many competitors as possible.

Thanks for the feedback through the forum, we will be sure to act on it as far as possible for this Winter's competition, and future ones too.

Best regards,

Mike Lloyd,
Centre Manager

In reply to niddclimber:

Hi again folks,

Thanks for your patience with regards to this. We have sought feedback from our customers both locally and at our other centres, considered how changes to the Winter Bouldering League can be made fairly for this and then future competitions, and have made the following announcement, relating to Harrogate Climbing Centre's competition:

This year, in an attempt to make the competition more inclusive, the adult category has been split into a V0-V4 and V5-V8+ category, designed to give competition to the strongest climbers, whilst creating an achievable competition to newer and developing climbers.

Due to low attendance across our three climbing centres, the Vets (40+) category was integrated into the above competition.

These changes have resulted in negative feedback from some of our customers, and as a result, we have decided to make some changes to this year's competition, and will also take the feedback on board for future competitions.

With effect from Round Three of this Winter's competition, climbers in the V0-V4 category will be able to score points for harder problems. We realised that containing people into a band category does not promote progression, and so hopefully this change will help climbers progress their skill levels through the five rounds. Those who are climbing in the V5 – V8+ category will score points only for the problems in that grade bracket.

We realise some competitors will worry that there is a possibility of competitors entering themselves into the lower category when they should be in the higher. The La Sportiva Winter Bouldering League is a friendly, open competition, depending on honesty throughout. We trust our customers to be fair when allocating themselves a category, and would expect all participants to want genuine competition.

As the competition is now into its second round the decision has been made not to reintroduce the Vets category for this year; however this category will be re-instated for next Winter's competition.

We would like to thank all our customers for their feedback, which will hopefully lead to improvements in our competition, making it fun and enjoyable for the greatest number of our local climbers as possible.

All the best,

Mike

In reply to MPL:

It'd probably be an administrative faff (ie involve someone poking at Excel for an hour or so until you get something sensible) but in future have you thought about sorting out "categories" for one round based on performance in the previous round or two? You'd probably have to have a newcomers category as well or something, but it'd give everyone something concrete to aim for - gun for promotion to division 2 or try to avoid relegation from division 1 or whatever.

In reply to MPL:

thanks for posting Mike. chatting to people at the wall tonight, the arbitary grade split still wasn't supported by anyone io spoke to. it will be a step forward to make a more meaningful split to reflect the spirit of the competition you've described - like fun/open or score/improvement.

kudos for listening to the feedback, just a shame that the women's comp this year is ludicrous with only two entries in the wads category.