UKC

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/oct/29/woman-records-10-hours-...

It's curious about the online rape threats from some, following seeing this.

In reply to Timmd:

As one of the YouTube commenters pointed out, that's a 2 minute video, from 10 hours.

That's 0.33%, probably the worst 0.33% too. And of that 0.33%, most of of it I thought was fine, and pretty much all of it no big deal.

Interesting at the online rape threats. That's out of line, but even on your civilised and humble UKC there's been online threats of violence. Like pretty much all online threats (99.9%? 99.99%? It would be interesting to know) they are hollow.

In reply to needvert:

Well in just one incident she was shadowed for 5 minutes. Quite unsettling I would have though.
As to hollow threats - ANY threat of rape is unacceptable.

In reply to Timmd:

http://www.funnyordie.com/articles/ebf5e34fc8/10-hours-of-walking-in-nyc-as...

Here is 10 hours of walking in New York as a white male.

In reply to needvert:

just because you think this is the 'worst', does that make it ok? A guy walking along hassling her for 5 mins - that's not ok! 10 hours walking around a city's street is probably an average week for many city dwellers or workers, I would guess. I couldn't imagine what it must be like to get that in the course of a week!
Fortunately, I don't often have to go to cities, except for this year when I am at uni. But all my time getting to uni is on bike, so no one notices you anyway (except for the teenage girls who shouted at me for my helmet looking like an irn bru helmet, which is a fair point!).

In reply to Timmd:

This was presumably filmed somehow, which would attract more attention than normal.

I'm always puzzled by this sort of thing. Walking around a busy city and a smaller town each day seeing thousands of people milling around, I see/hear some sort of unwanted attention maybe once or twice a year. Does it tend to happen only when people are alone (not it would seem in NY), am I blind and deaf, or is it all hugely exaggerated?

In reply to MG:

I got the impression it was secretly filmed by someone walking in front, I don't know though.

I have also rarely been hassled in a city, but my understanding is that it's worse in big cities like London and New York. I do walk very fast, and my walking style is a bit of a swagger - maybe I intimidate people?! lol
Are you male or female? It is something that almost exclusively happens to girls as far as I understand

In reply to girlymonkey:

I'm male. Just something I rarely see as an observer.

In reply to needvert:


Then you have a problem. It's obviously not 'fine'. The point the video is trying to get across is that although one remark may be innocuous, a number of such incidents building up over time becomes intolerable.


I'm sure that's an enormous comfort.

In reply to MG:


It was filmed by her boyfriend who walked in front with a hidden camera in his backpack.

In reply to Timmd:

It would be interesting to see the 'harassment' graded somehow. Without having the full context some of this 'harassment' looks like being sociable (and don't people complain when big cities aren't as friendly as the countryside ?).

A comment like "cheer up", whilst maybe not invited is not the same as being stalked (or apparently stalked) for 5 minutes.

In reply to GrahamD:


I will often offer a 'good morning' to people I pass when out walking. I usually will not offer any comment on their physical attributes, or take offence when said comments do not elicit a response.

To be honest, I just don't get the mentality of people who do this, or those who think it's ok. Perhaps they've just never talked to an actual woman.

In reply to GrahamD:

is that not the difference though, cities are not the countryside! I feel completely at ease talking to randoms in the hills, and definitely appreciate a nice hello. In the countryside though, everyone says it to everyone, so this is ok. In a city, it is only the pretty young girls who get 'greeted', so therefore it's not a friendly greeting - it's very much targeted. And when you are the 'target', that feels threatening. I am also never sure that anyone would help me in a city if someone tried to do anything to me, I feel like I need to defend myself, whereas in the countryside, anyone else would help. But actually, I don't feel threatened there in the first place (This could be a false sense of security, I know that), mainly because I feel I am amongst my 'own sort'. I think you do feel that you know who folks are in the hills, in a way you don't in a city. (As I say, I know that this is not the case, you don't know either place who is around you, but feelings aren't always rational)

In reply to girlymonkey:

What difference does the city make ? it might be exactly the same person saying "hello" in the city as the one saying "hello" in the hills.

I just don't think lumping all interactions from the truly worrying to the clumsy attempt at social interaction under the same umbrella term "harassment". It just removes credibility from this 'study' in the eyes of many (and yes - me included).

In reply to GrahamD:

It makes a difference cause those people in the city don't say hi to everyone they pass. So if they are speaking to you then you are being singled out. In the hills people speak to everyone, so you are one of the crowd and not being singled out

In reply to needvert:

Some bloke stroked the back of my thigh on the tube escalator a couple of days ago. Middle of the day. I glared at him, he apologised, what can I do. His word against mine that it was an accident or not. This is the kind of cr*p women put up with. And I'm well aware this is minor, its just a recent example.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Well I don't think everyone talks to everyone in the hills just as most people in cities don't exclusively single out one person. In both cases and all cases in between people are always selective about who they try to make a social contact with (such as a "hello").

My real gripe though is whether it really is harassment on this video in all cases ? OK persistent contact once the recipient has made it clear they do not wish to interact is clearly harassment but is the initial "hello" ?

There is a line to be drawn here. At what point does a reasonable, if clumsy, attempt at social interaction become harassment ?

In reply to GrahamD:

when it's clearly not in a normal social setting! It's not normal to greet a randommer walking past you in the street, so therefore harassment. A normal social setting to try and make your clumsy attempts at social interaction is somewhere that someone has gone to to socialise, like a pub, a party etc.
Imagine being a small blonde female and a big guy speaks to you in a way that is not normal for the situation you are in, it's a bit scary. As I say, it's a fortunately rare occurrence for me, but on the odd time it has happened I have felt a little scared. I tend to think I could hold my own in a fight reasonably well, my mother describes me as having arms like desperate dan, but it's still scary being on the receiving end. Now I realise most guys don't think they are being intimidating, but they are! Yes, it's just a comment, but you never know when a comment could lead to them trying to take things further. Would anyone help in a public place? Maybe, but certainly not guaranteed, and I don't want to have to find out.

In reply to GrahamD:

I think the point is surely that harrassment can be cumulative and is subjective to the person on the receiving end. A 'harmless' wolf-whistle or catcall from a passing person may be totally throwaway in isolation, but if unwanted attention (complimentary, non-threatening, or otherwise) happens with enough frequency it could certainly be experienced as harrassment.

In reply to GrahamD:


Are they saying "hello" to everyone who is passing?

If someone gives me a cheery "hello!" while looking me in the eye, then it's nice.

I would say it's quite intimidating and scary when a random bloke says hello, while scanning your body up and down with his eyes, lingering on your boobs in the street, particularly when you are on your own. the following thing would just freak me out and I would probably tell the police at a later point in case it was happening to other women.

In my lifetime, I've had people grab my boobs, stick a willy in my face, I've been shown so many willies I've lost count, I've been wianked in front of me multiple times, been asked if I'm scared of being raped, been followed home and had a foot put in the door, and had hundreds of comments. Most of this happened when I was younger and less able to deal with it.

I'm big and not intimidated easily, but some women are tiny. It's scary. Especially when someone touches you when you don't know them.

Most men I know don't do these things. A lot of the time, I think it's blokes trying to impress their mates, or doing it 'for a laugh'. I don't know anywhere in the UK that is as bad as the video and it's good not to over egg the pudding, but it's just depressing when it's dismissed as nothing to get upset about by people who have never had the experience themselves.

In reply to tlm:

I don't think some of it is "nothing to be upset about", but some of it is. Its the line that is being drawn in this 'experiment' isn't clear (to me, at least) - just about everything is being interpreted as harassment.

Reverse roles for a minute: do you want everyone to never speak to you or look at you for fear of being accused of harrasment ?

This is nothing to do with the physical contact cases you describe which are clearly wrong (although the eying up and down is unfortunately not always easy to avoid and is not male to female specific)

In reply to tlm:


This is the sort of thing that amazes me. I've no reason not to believe you but still struggle to fit that in with my experiences of life. Unless you or I have an exceptional social circle, it must imply lots of people I know and who I consider normal stick their willies in women's faces. I am now wondering who!!

In reply to GrahamD:


Surely you'd admit that greeting random passing strangers is vastly more frequent amongst people with a reasonably obvious interest in common (ie taking exercise in rural or upland locations) than it is in a much more generalised urban environment?

I do say hello to one or two folks I might encounter as I walk to the bus in the morning. I'm more likely to do it of they are older people, or if they have already acknowledged my presence in some non-verbal way like a nod of the head. One reason I do it is because they are likely to be neighbours - by which I mean people who live near to me, even though I might very likely not actually know them.

If I started greeting everyone who passed me after I got off my bus on Princes Street, that would be a trifle weird, as well as rather time-consuming. If I chose to limit my "hellos" to only attractive young women then I would expect to have a dim view taken of my behaviour sooner or later.

In reply to GrahamD:
There's so much to say about this stuff that I'm finding it impossible to organise my thoughts. It boils down to: context context context!


I think we're much better at instinctively understanding social nuance, potential threats, and context of communications than this question acknowledges. We're actually extremely good at it.
If I'm walking through a city I don't expect to make eye contact with people, or to say 'hello' in the same way that I do, and like to do, when out for a walk in the hills or countryside. In a city making eye contact could (often correctly) be interpreted as aggression. I wouldn't do it to male or female. If I'm out for a walk in the countryside and pass a person every couple of hours it would be strange not to acknowledge them with at least a nod and a hello. In a city context it would be inappropriate to acknowledge every person you pass in this way. So, as said in a post above, contact like this would be (correctly) interpreted as targeting. I think most people understand this instinctively.

I see a woman I find attractive. I say to her 'Hi there. Wow, you're gorgeous.' In which context is that appropriate?

a) It's 11.30pm. We're the only two people in a tube carriage and the train is between stops.
b) It's 11.30am. I'm interviewing her for a job.
c) It's 11.30am. She's interviewing me for a job.
d) We're in a crowded bar. She's there with a group of friends, both male and female.
e) I'm stood at a bus stop on a busy London street. It's 9.30am. She's walking past and has made no eye contact with me, or as far as I can tell, even looked at me.
f) None of the above.

I could go on but I'm sure you see what I'm saying.

In reply to GrahamD:


Oh not at all. I love people speaking to me and have no problems with the majority of people at all, chat to all sorts of people on the street etc. I thought I'd made that pretty clear?

I think the people (who are a pretty small minority in my own experience) that say hello to a woman, while not caring at all if she feels intimidated by it, know when they are doing it. I don't think it's something that you do by accident.

I don't think you need to worry that by saying a cheery hello that you would give to anyone, man or woman, that you will get it wrong. There is a very clear difference to me.

In reply to MG:



Nah - it just implies that a very few men do it a lot.

And that I am old.

Mind you - it doesn't happen to me at all these days. I guess that's one of the things that is scary about it - it happens to young girls, often when it's very clear that you are still at school because you have your uniform on.

In reply to tlm:


There was a thing on the radio at lunchtime about this actually (well, wider issues of the sexualisation of young girls), but I was horrified by the number of them that just accepted that these sorts of things, and much worse, were just part of teenage life. They hated it, but just accepted that they had to get on with it. Really really scary and sad

In reply to MG:



Creepers creep on women who are on their own. That's why you don't see it.

In reply to dsh:

So true.

In reply to ChrisBrooke:


I'd like to think you or I are. But a minority (those are the ones on this video) are not so aware of where the line is drawn. Well that's the problem, really. The line is not drawn - its a sort of non verbal contract between the potential harasser and the potentially harassed.

In reply to GrahamD:


I disagree with you about that. Going on my own experience, they DO know. They look at you in a very particular way as they do it. They don't do it in certain situations and pick on who to do it to. They have the same expression on their faces as the blokes who w@nk in front of you, and it is a predatory look. That is exactly what is so scary about it.

Maybe that's why blokes think it's nothing. They think it's innocent blokes trying to be cheery and friendly? But it really isn't. I like innocent blokes being cheerful and friendly. This isn't the same thing.

In reply to GrahamD:


and I don't think the harassed are actually interested in any contract. They just want to be left in peace.

In reply to tlm:
I just love 5 minutes of ignoring someone.. damn that girl is ignorant!! how about Sorry mate not interested.

I get sexually harassed every time I go to a crag... everyone i walk past smiles at me and sometimes talk to me...its scary some of them have dogs!!


after a shift in a bar I've even had drunk people I am not attracted to telling me to cheer up and smile.... man it makes me so mad!!

one thing to consider is maybe it works, maybe in some cultures its considered sociable and maybe nice to flirt in the street, the problem with NYC is you have lots of cultures in one spot, cultures with different boundaries.

In reply to tlm:

I agree, the bloke that touched me earlier this week knew exactly what he was doing and his expression wasn't sorry, or embarrassed. Creep.

In reply to Lukem6:

You are trivialising this.

In reply to marsbar:

one could say making a big deal

In reply to tlm:

I've been shown so many willies I've lost count,

My partner's first marriage was to a Portuguese guy. First time she was introduced to her FIL to be, he went to the fridge in his garage to fetch his pride and joy to show her. It was a wooden carving he'd made of his own erection. Dunno if it was a cultural difference but apparently he showed it to every woman who came to the house and No-one seemed to think it was strange.

In reply to aln:

in all seriousness wooden willies are used to promote fertility and often given in some cultures as gifts.

but imagine that.... "congratulations heres a wooden one to help"

In reply to aln:

Does no-one think it strange he keeps it in a fridge ???

In reply to Lukem6:


You're probably like MG and have never seen these things happen.

I thought I'd been quite careful in my postings to be balanced, to say that it is a minority of blokes who do it, to say that there is a big difference between a cheery hello and a creepy hello (that is VERY clear when you see the person's face and expression), and that it tends to happen to younger, rather than older women.

It's not people saying hello that is scary. It's the predatory, creepy and leery look on their faces. I would a thousand times rather have a cheery hello from someone with a big dog rather than have a bloke smile that particular type of smile as he looks up and down my body, as though he has every right to do so, only doing it when I am on my own. It's never happened to me when I have been with someone else, man or woman.

In reply to Timmd:

Some of the replies to this thread are rather depressing, if not unexpected.

In reply to Lukem6:

Hi Luke. Actually it is you that is ignorant. I don't mean that as an insult, simply that it is you, not the woman in the video, who actually fundamentally doesn't understand. tlm explained the difference between non-harassing friendliness and harassment. It looks as though you don't get that distinction, and if you don't the chances are you are behaving in a way that shows you don't get that distinction.

In reply to tlm:

Great post tlm.

In reply to GrahamD:
...non verbal contract between the potential harasser and the potentially harassed.

???
Only in the mind of the harasser and therein lies the problem.
I find it fascinating when people adopt this 'It doesn't affect me and I don't see it in my daily life so it probably doesn't happen' approach. All males in this case.

In reply to Timmd:

The global movement to stop this kind of sleazy harassment is amazing and growing extremely rapidly. The two main umbrella organisations are Hollaback! http://www.ihollaback.org/ (now in 79 cities and 26 countries) and Stop Street Harassment http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/

SSH sum it up this way: "Catcalls, sexually explicit comments, sexist remarks, homophobic slurs, groping, leering, stalking, flashing, and assault. Most women and some men will face gender-based street harassment by strangers in their life. Street harassment limits people's mobility and access to public spaces. It is a form of gender violence and it's a human rights violation. It needs to stop."

Hollaback! say "Street harassment is a form of sexual harassment that takes place in public spaces. It exists on a spectrum including “catcalling” or verbal harassment, stalking, groping, public masturbation, and assault"

When women speak out in a high profile way they get death threats and rape threats through social media to shut them up. The underlying attitude is what keeps women profoundly vulnerable to the whole spectrum of sexual weapons to keep them subordinated.

More from Hollaback! as they put it so well

"Street harassment is a gateway crime that makes other forms of gender-based violence OK. Studies conducted show that between 80-90% of women have been harassed in public. With legal recourse to address school and workplace harassment, streets remain one of the final frontiers in addressing and affirming basic, guaranteed civil rights. Comments range from “you’d look good on me,” to groping, public masturbation, and worse. These “compliments” aren’t about sex or about chivalry. They are about power. Young women are particularly vulnerable to street harassment, and at Hollaback! we’ve gotten stories from girls as young as twelve. Street harassment may be the social and cultural norm, but it is far from OK. Street harassment teaches us to be silent, that taking action will only escalate the situation. While this isn’t bad advice, it has led us down a dangerous road. Ultimately, perpetrators realize they won’t be held accountable and continue to harass. Hollaback! was designed by a group of young folks who were tired of being silenced and sought a simple, non-violent response. What has emerged is a platform where thousands of stories of street harassment have been told. We believe that by continuing to tell and map these stories, our voices will chip away at a culture that makes gender-based violence OK. Together we have the power to end street harassment, one Hollaback at a time."
http://www.ihollaback.org/resources/

In reply to aln:

Err English politeness anyone???

In reply to Timmd:

While all of these forms of harassment through to extreme sexual violence are directed mainly against females, they also open the way for such acts to be directed against some males. These dreadful behaviours are carried out not exclusively but certainly overwhelmingly by males. Beyond the direct victims of this actions, the people who commit these acts are living degraded, emotionally stunted lives, preserving an imbalance of power in their favour that in the end does them no favours in denying them access to the kind of positive relationship they could have.

The scale of the problem globally is mind-boggling. For example, in a recent worldwide study (190 countries), the UN found the following: "Around 120 million girls under the age of 20 worldwide (about 1 in 10) have experienced forced intercourse or other forced sexual acts, and one in 3 ever-married adolescent girls aged 15 to 19 (84 million) have been victims of emotional, physical or sexual violence committed by their husbands or partners. The prevalence of partner violence is 70 per cent or higher in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Equatorial Guinea, and approaches or exceeds 50 per cent in Uganda, the United Republic of Tanzania and Zimbabwe. In Switzerland, a 2009 national survey of girls and boys aged 15 to 17 found that 22 per cent and 8 per cent, respectively, had experienced at least one incident of sexual violence involving physical contact." http://www.unicef.org/media/media_75530.html

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


, Err there were no English people involved.

In reply to ericinbristol:

I've always walked in the public eye and especially in the alcohol industry where this sort of thing suddenly becomes acceptable where "harassment" is subjective and by some appreciated. But then case by case each individual responds differently.

I once met a girl by complimenting her in public. And my wife met me by harassing me in a club. So its each to their own.

In reply to Lukem6:

if it is appreciated it is not harassment. Sometimes someone can misjudge and when they do they should back off. I hope that you would accept that, yes? If you really accept that it is each to their own that means you have to accept that people are entitled to not be the recipient of your comments. Also, you are insisting on focusing only on the most potentially trivial level when there is vast amounts of evidence that harassers will keep going even when it is completely clear should they be at all interested in the rights of that person that they want it to stop.

In reply to Lukem6:

Bars and clubs are very different to the street. Yes, harassment can occur in these places, but going up and speaking to a stranger in this environment is a social norm, and people expect it when they go there. They choose to go into that environment knowing that is the culture of it.
Very different to walking down a street to get to work or the shops!

In reply to aln:
Doesn't stop it being 'typical english politeness'
I think you are confusing 'not thinking it strange' with not saying it was strange.

In reply to Lukem6:

tlm wrote this in response to you.

"I thought I'd been quite careful in my postings to be balanced, to say that it is a minority of blokes who do it, to say that there is a big difference between a cheery hello and a creepy hello (that is VERY clear when you see the person's face and expression), and that it tends to happen to younger, rather than older women. It's not people saying hello that is scary. It's the predatory, creepy and leery look on their faces. I would a thousand times rather have a cheery hello from someone with a big dog rather than have a bloke smile that particular type of smile as he looks up and down my body, as though he has every right to do so, only doing it when I am on my own."

Do you accept this?

In reply to Lukem6:

You are comparing the treatment you get in a bar with the treatment a person should expect on the street.
I presume the apology you got from your future wife was part of the breaking the ice process.

In reply to Lukem6:

Earlier in the thread you wrote


I seriously hope that you would not follow a woman like this for five minutes. That would be seriously creepy.

As to why a woman might not say 'Sorry mate not interested', I have two responses. First, she has made it clear she is not interested without having to say it in words. Any guy who interprets that any other way has basic problems with understanding body language or more likely is a harasser who doesn't care about what the woman wants. Second, a woman in that situation knows she runs the risk if she says that she's not interested of abuse being screamed at her or much worse. It can be a very intimidating situation.

In reply to girlymonkey:


Surely that is your take on it. I think to use the term social norm is to blur the lines too much, I think it depends on up bringing, personality, area etc etc than a blanket statement. Walk around smaller towns and lots of people stop and talk say hello etc. Im in Southport at the minute and have had several people male and female say hello or nod or just recognise my presence etc.

take a look at this blog I recently seen on FB about a girl from Singapore comparing london to Singapore etc. Particularly read the bit under the heading People. Just thought it was interesting


http://blog.intohigher.com/uk/into-city-university-london/my-life-in-london...

In reply to ericinbristol:

To play the devils advocate, I'm under the impression it is well within ones rights to look at other people in public spaces.

In reply to ericinbristol:


I disagree. I'd have said that socially inept blokes far outnumber harassers. But then I work in engineering.

In reply to needvert:

No one has said anything about not looking at other people in public spaces. But you indirectly raise an important issue, which is men harassing women in public spaces by staring at them, which can be threatening and intimidating. Staring involves an imposition that significantly often signals a willingness to disregard the rights of the person being stared at in other respects too. Looking - fine. Staring - creepy and can be intimidating. I hope that you would accept this distinction.

In reply to GrahamD:

Even in the specific case we are talking about, i.e. following a woman for five minutes? Maybe you are right. I don;t know if that makes the situation better or worse in terms of the prospects for improving it.

In reply to marsbar:


I find it interesting that not one man on this thread has bothered to comment on this.

Like it or not, this is a normal experience for women.

This was the middle of the day, in a public place, I was wearing tracky bottoms and I wasn't drinking.

In reply to ericinbristol:



also important to note it does go the other way also. I know a guy who wont wear shorts in summer, go the beach or get in the steam room after the gym if women are present due to comments and stares he gets particularly from groups of women about his physique and skinny legs etc. He's the skinniest out of all of us and the girls do seem to single him out. I have been there when this has happened properly knocked his confidence.

In reply to marsbar:

For what it's worth, I was shocked but not surprised as I've read what tlm has written before about similar things.

Before that I would have been surprised.

In reply to Alan M:

On going the other way, yes see my post above at 08:41: while these things are mainly men harassing women it occurs the other way round too.

In reply to Alan M:


I often will offer a friendly hello to people, male or female, out walking their dog, for example. I don't stop and look them over before complimenting them on their arse, or follow them home without saying anything. I'm a computer programmer, and even I know the difference.

In reply to marsbar:

I intended my contributions to this thread as addressing your experience among the others.

I agree that what happened to you is horrible, horribly normal, wrong and should stop.

In reply to Alan M:


Sure, and I bet it's an unpleasant experience. However I doubt that he feels physically intimidated or is concerned about the threat of sexual violence, which does make the situation a bit different.

In reply to ericinbristol:


Sorry didn't read your posts properly.

In reply to GrahamD:


I don't think it is social ineptness at all. The times when I don't like it, it is because of the knowing expression on the person's face. That it is all about power rather than being a bit over enthusiastic. I talk to people all the time in the street and love the friendliness of it, but this isn't a friendly thing. It is an intimidating thing.

In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:

I know what you mean. It is an issue I was pretty oblivious to until a few years ago. Once I started to learn about it and ask women its prevalence was a revelation.

In reply to Alan M:

No problem - I've posted lots on this today!

In reply to marsbar:

Not much to say - unacceptable. How often does something similar (i.e. hidden rather than overt) happen to you?

In reply to planetmarshall:


i dont think the majority do that either. My comment was in relation to the social norm comment. I dont think its easy or helpful to blanket statement like that. As different areas and different settings have different norms etc. See the blog i posted

In reply to aln:


I'm sure this is true. It is amazing how invisible this can be to other males: at least to me! I have never seen a man do this and yet there is vast amounts of evidence of this happening.

In reply to Timmd:

That guy who just walks along behind / beside her for 5 minutes needs locking up before he rapes someone.

In reply to Timmd:

This is a timely thread and the responses have been interesting. This cartoon sums up many of the positions taken in this thread

http://www.robot-hugs.com/harassment/

In reply to ericinbristol:

Never seen it myself and don't know of any blokes who have done it but I know girls who have reported it happening to them.

In reply to ericinbristol:


Thank-you.

I really appreciate you saying this.

Often, women just don't bother to mention stuff because it has been so normalised and also because there is no point. Nothing gets done about it. Even worse, women actually get negative feedback from a few people:

You're not being honest
You're exaggerating
You should take it as a compliment
You want people to stop being friendly to one another
It's your fault, you should dress differently
It's your fault, you should say something to them/not say something to them
It happens to men too, so it's not a problem/you're ignoring what happens to men
It's harmless flirting

In reply to lynda:

That is SO perfect!

In reply to Alan M:


I was thinking about this - it's weird, because I don't know any blokes who have done it, apart from the ones that I didn't know who did it to me!! Most blokes just wouldn't do it, would they?

In reply to tlm:


Well, you don't know any blokes who have admitted to doing it, which is different.

In reply to tlm:


I would certainly hope not!! I have never waved my penis or grabbed my crotch or anything like that towards a woman or man. Its what I think many men will find hard to understand because I am struggling to find context or reasoning why another bloke would wave it at a stranger or get it out with someone they are not in a relationship with or in a situation that requires it to be out!!

In reply to Alan M:

It's a power thing, not a sex thing.

In reply to Timmd:

Interesting thread.

I'm bracing myself yto do a little experiment tomorrow morning. Will report back!

In reply to tlm:

Isn't it?

The eye opener for me was the one where women are seen as walking through men's spaces.

In terms of over-reacting or being over-sensitive; if we feel the way we do, its because someone made us feel that way, and it is unacceptable to be made to feel threatened.

In reply to tlm:


Groping flashing etc I can see I (and other men) might not be aware of. So if it is as common as you say, that is clearly something that needs to be addressed.

But most of the comments like in the OPs video just don't accord with what I see. They were entirely open and in crowded streets so the sort of thing I would notice if they were going on around me, and certainly if they were at a rate of 100/10 hours/woman as the video suggests Walking through a city centre daily I just don't see or hear anything like that, except very very occasionally. I'm going to take a lot of convincing the problem with unwelcome comments is anything like as widespread as the video suggests in the UK.

In reply to lynda:

That cartoon is great - thank you for sharing it.

In reply to tlm:


I would fully agree with that.

Still think it will be hard for the majority of men to understand the mentality. Obviously my experience is limited to my own social and normal operating circles were things are based on being equals etc. Outside of my normal circles its probably a whole different world and why I haven't personally seen it or know of anyone doing it. It does happen though i know of girls who have reported it etc.

In reply to lynda:


I don't know. I think that people should take some responsibility and realise that they do have power over their own feelings to some extent. For example, we all know people who took things the wrong way and got all upset when it was completely unnecessary and unintended. However, I wouldn't describe myself as a sensitive soul, and I think if people are setting out to intimidate and bully other people, we shouldn't pretend that this isn't happening, or victim blame.

In reply to MG:

You probably have to be looking for it. I had a few things pointed out to me, that awareness made me see ten times as much stuff going than I would have before, even then, a man won't see of hear the majority of stuff because it is not targeted at them and even a few metres away it will probably go unnoticed.

In reply to MG:


In my own experience it hasn't been as bad as the video in the UK - well, not since the 1970s at any rate! But like I said, I'm getting old and withered now, so it's not happening to me any more. But I do believe that it happens to other people more frequently than it does to me, and that it is worse in some place than others. I think places like India are pretty bad - places where women have less power.

I've been really shocked at the rise in people putting their hands right up women's skirts and feeling them though. That's something that's never happened to me.

I think the key thing is to realise that it's hidden from many of us, and to actually listen to those who are explaining what is happening.

In reply to The New NickB:

Do you not think you would have noticed practically all the comments in the video had you been nearby? I think I would. And the camera caught them several metres away.

In reply to tlm:

I agree, but in many cases I don't think the cat callers think they are bullying or intimidating. They should be called out on it if only to make them think (politely and non-aggressively), but that might cause a whole other lot of trouble and lets be honest, how many of us would be able to do it?

In reply to Tall Clare:

You're welcome

In reply to MG:

Some, not all probably. I've heard much worse. I can certainly believe those sort of comments can happen every few minutes to one person in a busy city. The guy following is difficult to be aware of unless it is happening to you.

In reply to MG:

The classic of course is the guy who makes some sort of comment intended as a come on and then gets a aggressive and calls the woman a whore or bitch or lesbian or whatever when they are either ignored or get a negative response.

My housemate does this kind of thing all the time. He calls it "day gaming" and has got loads of dates this way. Basically meeting women outside of the "normal" context of a bar/work/club etc. From what I have seen and what he has told me he has never had a hugely negative reaction. He is funny and charming and I guess better than average looking. I guess my question is when does it become harassment or is it not if you are good looking and funny? Is the initial approach harassment or is it only harassment when you continue to talk to the person when they have given you no response or a negative response?

In reply to Timmd:

I found the video very interesting as it does highlight a particular attitude that persists. That is in some ways complex (it is sexualizing, it is objectifying, it is basically not seeing women as people). It is of course a selective view we are presented with, we don't see the whole ten hours, so one might reasonably argue that the editing is biased. It is in NY so the question arises would the same occur in London, Chicago, Dehli? One might even argue that some of the comments are not in fact threatening (though is it ok to pass comments on strangers in the street?). Nevertheless some of the acts witnessed are downright creepy and would certainly give me cause for concern.
But that is not what saddens me, what saddens me is that there are still people who think that sort of behaviour is OK or at least not a problem. I don't think it is a majority that do so (I could be wrong not seen any statistics) but it is always worth showing it to be wrong.

In reply to JM:

If it happens to you all the time it could be annoying and I think that if someone is physically attractive then they are possibly more likely to be subject to comments. I think it becomes harassment when it is persistant. It also suggests that you are driven by looks rather than the person themselves, but then that may be where a lot of us start off.
I don't think that there is anything inherently wrong in approaching a stranger in public with a view to getting to know them. They might be reading a book that is interesting, they might be doing something funny that attracts you or any of a number of things that say "this is an interesting person I might like to know" but in all cases it should be born in mind that public is not necessarily a social situation and polite request to meet up (with an explanation as to why) would be preferable to a demand or dogged persistence. And if you 31st in a long line of previous commentors then it has got to be more than "Hey beautiful" to be anything other than a pain

In reply to JM:


Textbook example of survivor bias. Has he asked all the women he didn't get dates from how they felt about it?

In reply to ericinbristol:


Not in that specific case (assuming there actually isn't an innocent explanation), but there are many cases on that video being construed as harassment which I'm uncomfortable with.

In reply to GrahamD:


Which ones bother you? (just one example is fine! Don't list them all!!!!)

Also - I just wondered if you ever find yourself in situations where you feel vulnerable?

In reply to GrahamD

So, a bloke is uncomfortable with something being called harassment, in a discussion where women are telling you that this behaviour makes them feel at best uncomfortable, and often threatened? Hmmm, does this tell you something about the problem? I'm sorry that an action that makes women feel threatened, is something that you are uncomfortable with being called harassment!

In reply to GrahamD:

on the odd occasion I've been catcalled (and it is very rare) my first thought is Pr@ck. Because often it isn't a friendly acknowledgement.

Sometimes it's a show of bravado to the catcaller's friends (see how manly I am getting that girl's attention)
Sometimes it's simply to elicit a response (positive or negative) and quite often it's the negative response they want so they can throw it back in your face

That's my personal experience (and yes, I'd say all of the comments on that video would be considered harassment and would make me feel uncomfortable).

I'm not unfriendly, and I've had some very interesting conversations with complete strangers. They have never started from any form of cat call

In reply to JM:


But which kind of thing? If you mean the stuff in the video, that is creepy, sleazy harassment. If you mean chatting to women who seem interested and receptive and not initiating it if it is clear they are not, that's fine.


Nothing wrong with chatting up people who want to be chatted up.


Women are often too scared to give a negative reaction of any kind, and so guys roaming around trying to chat women up need to bear that very much in mind and proceed with care and consideration.


It obviously becomes harassment when it is it is clear that it is unwanted. It may be that being good looking and funny makes it unwanted on fewer occasions, but the key thing is unwanted. Considering how intimidated women can be from making it clear that it is unwanted (due to the potential for verbal or physical violence), I would strongly recommend that any decent person would err on the side of caution and only continue after when it is clearly welcome.


It depends on the kind of initial approach it is. An initial approach can be really invasive/instrusive/aggressive/intimidating. A pretty good general rule is approach nicely and continue only with a positive response.

In reply to MG:

I understand your desire for evidence. A few observations:
- The human brain screens out most information until it is alerted to a reason to notice. A bit like when you have to use crutches and suddenly see loads of people on crutches out and about.
- However, as a male a huge amount of this will be done in a way that you will not notice.
- Ask your female friends about this (but it needs to be in a way that communicates open mindedness not scepticism) and you will be really amazed. Just in the last few minutes I have had a text from a woman I know who is on a train and a guy is not only staring at her but has just taken her photo! And she is too intimidated to say anything or react negatively.
- Do some checking online for evidence. There is screeds of it. Try this http://www.ihollaback.org/share/ or this http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/video/ or this
http://everydaysexism.com/

In reply to girlymonkey:

Well some of the comments were just "have a good day", which is very common in the US as an acknowledgement, which are in any case more common in experience. It looks bad played right next to wierdos following the woman but I think assuming what may be simple greeting is harassment is making a jump.

In reply to MG:

If they are saying 'Have a good day' because they have interacted with her in some way, then yes, that is normal. But one would assume (and you are right, the video is out of context so it could be a wrong assumption) that they are not saying it to everyone that passes, as there are too many people around for that to even be practical. They are saying it because she is a pretty young woman. Therefore, it's not innocuous. The words themselves are not the key here, it's the intention

In reply to ericinbristol:

Possibly true but that wasn't my point, which was that most of what went on on the video was blatant. I would notice if it was going on all the time around me and it isn't.

You last link always amuses me. The first sentence suggests they don't do irony!

In reply to ericinbristol:

Put another way, the video suggests a woman walking around in broad daylight gets an unwelcome comment every 6 minutes, which is clearly nonsense, certainly in the UK.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:
I don't think the editing is biased if they tell you up front how long the period of filming was, as they did.

As for what would occur elsewhere - there is plenty of evidence that it is not just New York. You asked about London. Check out the accounts from Hollaback London: http://ldn.ihollaback.org/ You asked about Chicago - http://chicago.ihollaback.org/ read the accounts there. As for Delhi, that is an extremely dangerous place for women and girls, with sexual harassment utterly routine - check out http://www.safedelhi.in/safe_delhi_campaign.html

You said "One might even argue that some of the comments are not in fact threatening". They don't have to be threatening to be not OK, they are not OK when they are harassing. You said "though is it ok to pass comments on strangers in the street?" - generally no, generally it is an imposition and you need to proceed with caution if you are doing it to get a sense from someone that a comment would be welcome. You are NOT entitled to comment with no effort to get a sense of whether or not it would be welcome. There are signs of these things as to whether people are open to you entering their personal space, whether verbally or otherwise.

In reply to MG:

The video suggests it happens that frequently in new york. I have no figures for the frequency in the UK, it will vary from area to area. London will almost certainly be worse. Just because you don't notice it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Maybe you look like a man that would rebuke someone for doing it, so they don't do it when you are around
But the frequency is not the issue anyway. It shouldn't happen, ever.

In reply to MG:

I take it you are referring to this: 'The Everyday Sexism Project exists to catalogue instances of sexism experienced by women on a day to day basis.' I am guessing your argument is that it is sexist to have something that focuses on women's experiences of sexism. If so, I disagree. I see it as legitimate to have something that focuses on the experiences of a group that is the main target of a particular form of discrimination. Doing that does not involve a denial that those from the group not normally the target of that discrimination cannot on occasion themselves be subject to it. In the same way, I have no problem with something that looks at racism against black people.

In reply to MG:

Why make that argument? No one is making that argument. The point is that it occurred which is pretty astounding, or should be. Furthermore, is there reason to think that what happened in this case (an unwelcome comment every 6 minutes for ten hours) could occur in much of this world, there is good reason to think it does - see all the sources I have pointed to up thread.

In reply to ericinbristol:

That is pretty disturbing if he's doing that. As a starting point tell her to check that she not got something attached to her or sitting under a stupid sign or blouse is open or anything etc etc etc etc. There is a current trend particularly amongst the younger generations to take photos of strangers and then load them up to forums for people to comment,discuss, laugh at etc. I only found out about it by chance the other week also on a train. There was a guy with a crazy dress sense asleep. A lad took a photo and then was egged on by his mates (mixed group) to put it on a website for discussion. i cant remember the name of the site, sorry Hopefully someone will know the name of the app.

Also, I believe that there is an app or an app is in the making in the US atleast that uses facial recognition technology to match photos to online profiles like FB etc. Crazy world.

In reply to MG:

You responded by critiquing first line of the everyday sexism website. I would be good if you commented on the huge catalogue of misogyny, sexism and harassment that people have posted on it.

In reply to MG:


Of course simply assuming that someone saying 'have a good day' is harassment is wrong. It can be a socially positive thing when it is appropriate, welcome and indeed invited or expected in some way. Just saying it at someone (and I do mean at someone) for no good reason as they are passing is a manipulative effort to get their attention or just to intrude on them because you can and think you are somehow entitled to it. Do you accept that there is a difference between these two things? Furthermore, you need to bear in mind that either all or nearly all women are on the receiving end of harassment more or less often and so you may know that you are not an aggressive sleazebag and are not going to escalate things, but the women can't know which you are. And many women will be intimidated by that.

In reply to Alan M:

Hi Alan. Yes it is disturbing. I know you mean well with pointing out that it could be due to something like that but that can't be my starting point as it is too close to suggesting that she caused it in some way.

In reply to ericinbristol:

I just pointed it out that it doesn't have to be a pervert with sinister motives etc. If you wanted to say anything You know her personaly so you can word it and be as tactful as you want.

The point is there might be any number of reasons why a photo was taken if it is of her and not something crazy going on behind her or in her general direction etc. There is a modern term for the act of photographing a stranger and putting it online to start a discussion, which i cant remember. We are all at risk of it both men and women alike its cruel and uncalled for but its a trend that is increasing.

Reading the below seems to suggest that it happens quite often on public transport

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/04/photograph-strangers-t...

In reply to ericinbristol:

You don't see irony in a campaign against sexism have an opening gambit that is blatantly sexist. OK....

Some of the reports on the site are terrible. Many are trivial everyday sleights and tediously dull.

In reply to ericinbristol:


Or simply being polite... Quite often I say good morning to strangers, they normally respond in kind,


Do you accept that there is a difference between these two things?

I don't think simple "good morning" or similar is manipulative, no, or at least shouldn't be assumed as such.


Furthermore, you need to bear in mind that either all or nearly all women are on the receiving end of harassment more or less often and so you may know that you are not an aggressive sleazebag and are not going to escalate things, but the women can't know which you are. And many women will be intimidated by that.

Sorry I am not going to walk in studied silence staring at my toes in case I upset someone. We went through this higher and no one wants it.

In reply to ericinbristol:

What argument? I am pointing out what happens in the video isn't in any way typical of the UK ( or I strongly suspect NY). That's all.

In reply to MG:
Look at my profile picture. I posted this image because it's one of the few that I like of myself and I'm willing to share online. Look at the first 2 comments. Both of those comments made me feel uncomfortable (I'm sure they didn't mean it to be that way) and I almost removed the picture but decided not to because I like the picture.

In particular look at the comment alluding to my body. Is that acceptable behaviour?

In reply to lynda:


Not at all. Unfortunately, it's not an isolated incident on here - and it's often the case, when a new female member starts to post, that a bunch of the old guard come up with a load of tired, leery 'banter' which makes one cringe.

Did you report it?

Martin

In reply to maisie:

I didn't, I wasn't aware of that function at the time and it was over 5 years ago. So it seems pointless now. It would be nice to delete it though

In reply to lynda:

They seem a bit off. Although you did, literally, ask for comment.

In reply to MG:
How so? Because I left the comments open?
So it becomes my fault to invite such comments?

In reply to lynda:

Well I wouldn't say it's a fault but encouraging people to comment on the subject of photographs is the purpose of comments!

In reply to MG:

And so in your eyes, my body is fair game. I see. How enlightening and shows what you don't get about the video.

Strangely enough, I don't get the urge to put a comment about a male body in a picture; even if he were fit.

In reply to lynda:


I thought I said otherwise above


Others do though. Do you think this wrong? I'm not too bothered

In reply to lynda:


BTW what do you think I don't get? It would be pretty problematic if it occurred typace here.

In reply to MG:


That comment is as pathetic as the ones made concerning the photo in question. Don't really how the photo was inviting comments anyway.

In reply to MG:


Amazing.

In reply to Sally Bustyerface:

. Don't really how the photo was inviting comments anyway.

Ooh, a button saying "add your comments" maybe?

In reply to Sally Bustyerface:


Well what?

In reply to MG:

You don't seem to see that the kind of behaviour on the video can be uncomfortable. I agree that some women court that behaviour and revel in it but for most of us, it's just plain creepy.

I illustrated the point by referring to my profile pic to show how commonplace that behaviour is and how unnoticed. Should it be that I simply take it as a compliment? That no harm has been done, even though I felt uncomfortable and creeped out by the fact that complete strangers felt it was necessary to bring attention to my breasts? It drove one guy to make comment to the others to knock it off; he could see how inappropriate it was.

You say I invited comment. What next, that if I dress provocatively, I'm asking for it? Perhaps a little extreme, you seem like a nice enough person, but in the end the sentiment and attitude is the same.

I'm not looking for an argument, simply trying to get you to see it from a woman's point of view. I love being complimented, who doesn't, but cor look at her tits is not a compliment. It's just objectification.

In reply to lynda:



Well no. I do see some of it is uncomfortable and more. I have said so several times. My point has been public behaviour like that is rare in the UK and certainly not at a rate of once every 6 mins as in the video.



You did!

What next, that if I dress provocatively, I'm asking for it?

Well presumably wanting some form of attention, unless you dress just for yourself. The question is whether its appropriate and welcome. The photo comments were a bit crude and clearly not welcome. Would "that's a nice shot of you" been a problem?

In reply to MG:
That's a nice shot of you would have been fine. It's a friendly compliment.

I think we may be coming to the same thing. It's about appropriateness. Unfortunately on the street it feels inappropriate when a stranger throws out a comment directed at you when you have not even acknowledged said person and you are minding your own business getting on with your day. Let me ask, for the comments that you didn't think were too bad, why do you think the men made them?

(Btw, I always dress for myself. Sometimes I'm a slob other times I fancy doing my self up a bit. More often than not it's the former. Luckily my other half doesn't mind how I look)

I'm away to my bed. It's been a long week of work

In reply to lynda:


I wouldn't delete it for two reasons: first, you liked the photo enough to use it for your profile, so it's how you wish to present yourself to the world; second, it rather compliments your argument now, doesn't it?

At least one of those commenters is still an active user, BTW.....

Martin

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


Are Portuguese people know for their typical english politeness?


No, you're confusing your perception of what happened, with knowing what happened. The Scottish woman presented with a carving of her future FIL' erection found it strange and unsettling. The extended Portuguese family who were present didn't. She knows this because she asked her fiance, the son of the phallus bearer.

In reply to lynda:


Some of the places she walked in NYC looked fairly poor there were people hanging about on the sidewalk and some of them had chairs so they were going to be there for a while. My guess is some of the comments were intended to get her to stop and get eye contact so they could ask for money or hustle something. They'd probably shout out at a man walking past as well but with a different line.

I once went down a scruffy street in Austin and after determinedly ignoring a bunch of panhandlers had a big black guy get right in front of me stopping me walking down the sidewalk and making me think I was about to get mugged. His opening line was 'Sir, I'm a poet' - he was after ten bucks to make up a poem about me.

In reply to aln:

Can we just backtrack as this is getting tedious to say the least:

"My partner's first marriage was to a Portuguese guy. First time she was introduced to her FIL to be, he went to the fridge in his garage to fetch his pride and joy to show her. It was a wooden carving he'd made of his own erection. Dunno if it was a cultural difference but apparently he showed it to every woman who came to the house and No-one seemed to think it was strange."


You say "no one thought it strange" (notice that NO ONE bit) The fact you choose to relate this implies you thought it strange or found it strange that no one found it strange. I rather foolishly used the phrase English politeness when I should have said politeness. I apologise so profusely for this slip of the keyboard.

You are right I didn't 'know what happened' because you actually held back all the useul information like the fact that:

"The Scottish woman presented with a carving of her future FIL' erection found it strange and unsettling"

But this person counts as no-one and it is implied that all the people who thought it 'not strange' were family members (no pun intended).

In reply to ericinbristol:

Hi Eric
I think we are on the same wave length here. The editing could be construed as biased given that we don't see the full ten hours so one might wonder what is left out, ie 9 hrs 55 mins of no comments, but then that is not the purpose of the experiment, the purpose is to show that a woman walking the streets is subject to unsolicited comments. By saying it could be construed as biased I am playing devil's advocate.
As with comparing it to other cities. Reactions will vary with place to place in some they will be better in others worse. In Bexhill-on-sea she could probably walk around all day with barely a comment while in Riyadh she would have been arrested before she could have gone ten yards. This is not to trivialise the video but to point out that if you try to extrapolate a situation in America to the Uk then it might not work. Your links to London etc are good in providing examples from the Uk etc.
I think unsolicited comments on the street are very much dependant on situation. Where I live strangers talk to you all the time male or female, they say "hi" or tell you about the kingfishers on the river or other bits of small talk it is indiscriminate and friendly, on the other side you have unsolicited comments that can be threatening or harassing such as we see in the video. As tlm says the delivery is an important part of how it comes across. An innocent comment delivered in a leering way or at night has a completely different feel to that same comment delivered in a different context in daylight hours

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Whatever.

In reply to aln:

Cheers

In reply to ericinbristol and MTSA

Thank you.

Acknowledging the issue is the first step to solving it. I appreciate it.

I would also like to clarify that it is not most men behaving like this.

In reply to MG:

Its happened twice to me on the tube, previous time was more of a grope so easier to handle with a whack to the offending hand.

To put it in context I use the tube very rarely, maybe 5 times a year and mostly not alone which was when this happened. I would assume that those using the tube regularly have probably lost count.

In reply to MG:


The site asks for comments. Presumably they assume that people would know the difference between an appropriate and an inappropriate comment.

More than a bit off.

It is stuff like that that makes me feel uncomfortable wearing a vest top on a hot day. I didn't ask for these things to be in my way and attracting unwanted attention. Fine, look if you must, but don't stare, talk to my face and keep your inappropriate comments to yourself.

In reply to Timmd:

To even things up a bit....

3 Hours Of "Harassment' In NYC!: youtube.com/watch?v=75aX9mlipiY&