UKC

climbing in a four

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 Derry 31 Oct 2014
Hi, consulting the collective brain that is UKC for some thoughts. Basically taking some friends out on a multipitch route (about 7 pitches) and would like some opinions/options.

Have 2 single 60m ropes, plenty of quickdraws, most pitches are 30m but some are 50m. 2 of my friends second comfortably, good belayers etc and could potentially lead a pitch or two, and the final member of the team has only ever top roped/seconded routes, wouldn't be comfortable belaying.

So my thoughts; I lead on one rope, bring up the two confident climbers on another rope with one of them tied in the middle(ish), when they reach me, one of them belays the fourth up whilst I lead onto the next pitch, and we stop every 3 pitches or so for me to reload with quickdraws.

Anyone got any different suggestions?
In reply to Derry:

So you're belaying 3 climbers on two ropes for the 50m pitch?
 kylo-342 31 Oct 2014
In reply to Derry: which route?
 Misha 31 Oct 2014
In reply to Derry:
My best advice would be do it in a three or two pairs if you have two competent leaders. Doing it in a four would be a right faff and asking for trouble, especially if you are the only competent leader and one of the people is pretty inexperienced to the point of not being able to belay. It will certainly be slow, which isn't a good idea with inexperienced people, a seven pitch route and short daylight hours.

 Scarab9 31 Oct 2014
In reply to Derry:

In theory its doable but in practice I wouldn't fancy it. If anything even slightly goes wrong it's going to be a nightmare to communicate and fix the issue (particularly as you're the only one likely to be able to fix it and coins in theory be 100-120 metres away. Two people moving together (as two would have to on the longer pitches) would be unpleasant if one or both started struggling or simply climbed at different paces. You wouldn't really want the rookie at the end as its a pretty lonely place to be, bit anywhere else and the pace is likely to be even more unpleasant. And as 7pitches can easily take much longer than expected with 2 I'd really not want to be dealing with 3 other people. If for any reason you need to escape the route it could be rather difficult to organise and keep everyone calm too.

I really think you'll end up stressed and regretting it. It nice to be able to take leas experienced friends out on multi pitch but I think you're best doing two trips or just accepting they need to build some experience on leading first.
 ogreville 31 Oct 2014
In reply to Scarab9:

As a relatively inexperienced tradster I'd like to give my perspective as a newby. I've never fancied the idea of climbing as a team of three, let alone four. I have only experienced multi-pitch routes clubbing in two teams of two, with an experienced leader and less experienced seconding , and importantly, two sets of gear and ropes. The idea of trying to manage a belay with three other people in the mix seems like a pain in the ass, and as others here have said, if anything goes wrong, with only two ropes, there could be trouble. You may be competent and have the skills to deal with the faff, but unless your other two more experienced partners can handle themselves somewhat, you may have three people all looking to you for support and guidance spaced out across two pitches, which I imagine would be a big responsibility for any person, no matter the level of experience.
 George Ormerod 31 Oct 2014
In reply to Derry:

I've climbed with a 4 and 3 ropes and it works really well - pretty much as quick as a pair:

The leader is attached by half ropes to 2 of the seconds. One of the seconds is attached by another half or full rope to the 4th member of the team. The leader leads, brings up 2 and 3 together, then one of them can belay whilst the leader heads off, with the other bringing the 4th person up. Obviously it depends on the route, but it works in the right circumstances (like large enough stances and no big traverses).
OP Derry 31 Oct 2014
In reply to George Ormerod:

> I've climbed with a 4 and 3 ropes and it works really well

> The leader is attached by half ropes to 2 of the seconds. One of the seconds is attached by another half or full rope to the 4th member of the team. The leader leads, brings up 2 and 3 together, then one of them can belay whilst the leader heads off, with the other bringing the 4th person up.

Yeah good call. I was originally planning on tying into the middle of one of the ropes, belaying my two seconds on each end on a reverso with the fourth bringing up the rear. but then I found out that some of the pitches are 40 and 50m long, it doesn't work with my doubled up 60m rope.

The climb Im planning on is whilst on holidy next year. The in-laws are taking everyone to Mallorca so fancied one of the big routes at Sa Gubia for a day outing. Not til next May so daylight hours will be good, and I'll be teaching the newbie a few more skills and getting experience before then.
OP Derry 31 Oct 2014
In reply to ogreville:

> As a relatively inexperienced tradster I'd like to give my perspective as a newby. I've never fancied the idea of climbing as a team of three, let alone four.

Climbed in a three many times. Great fun as there's someone at the belay ledge to chat to, help with ropes, or the major advantage, actually get some decent photos en-route. As long as you've got your systems sorted its not that much hassle, just takes a bit longer is all.
 goose299 31 Oct 2014
In reply to Derry:

It's a faff climbing as a three, let alone a four. God forbid it, but think what happens if it goes tits up

If two are reasonably good at seconding and it's not till next May, is it not feasible to teach one to lead and then climb as two two's
 Misha 31 Oct 2014
In reply to goose299:

This!
 Michael Gordon 01 Nov 2014
In reply to Derry:

I think you'd all have a much better day out if you did it in two teams of two. You have a range of options here, all of which sound better than the one you're proposing, but the main and easiest thing you should do is teach the least experienced how to belay. From here:

The two teams could climb different routes and meet later.

You could all climb an easier route.

You could all climb the route you want to do. On the crux pitch if necessary you could leave the gear in place for the second leader to clip as they climb up after you.
 David Coley 01 Nov 2014
In reply to Derry:

Climbing in a four is very easy and not much slower than the pace of the slowest climber. I have done this for years with my kids on multi pitch bolted and trad. You just need to be organised.

Some tips:
1. set the belay using a cordelette or a sling with a powerpoint
2. belay using a Reverso in guide mode - anything else would not be safe.
3. either use 3 ropes as talked about above (and if you have 3 people who can belay), or use 2 ropes with one second on one rope and 2 on the other (one tied into the end, the other about 5 meters from the end).
4. The key question is where to put the weakest climber. It really depends on how weak they are. When Theo was very young (5yrs) he went on the bottom of the rope with two climbers with his mum just above. However this means that 2 climbers end up climbing at the pace of the weakest. This can spoil things a bit for the better climber, so you might like to put the slowest on the line by his/herself. This would not be best if they were nervous.
5. If the belays are bolted and you own two PAS-style daisies then consider using them rather than cordelettes at the belays by clipping the PAS as a big loop between the two bolts. This gives multiple clip-in points for people, reversos or sacks.
6. It will be easier if the best climber simply leads everything, however if you do want to swap leaders then equip everyone with a cow's tail so they are safe as you will need to untie and possible sort the ropes when they get a bit messed up at the swap.
7. A party of four is exactly that, a party. So take lots of food, cameras, water.

Enjoy.
 dagibbs 01 Nov 2014
In reply to David Coley:

I agree with David -- this can work.

From the sound of it, this is a sport climb not a trad climb, right? So, the follows don't actually need to know how to clean gear, and you will not be placing gear on leads. This makes a 7-pitch undertaking as a team of 4 far more reasonable than the same as a gear climb, as you will be able to lead faster, the last follow will be able to clean more easily.

One thing to consider -- bring a few longish nylon slings (the wide kind), and if/when the climb hits a crux section, consider leaving one on the bolt above the crux section hanging down so that the weaker follows can just yard on it to get past the crux if they need to. This can save a lot of time, make the slower climbers not feel bad for slowing everyone down at the hard bits, and generally make the whole expedition a lot more fun.

Also, as noted, three ropes is a good idea. If you can only do it on two -- for the pitches where this happens -- I think having the two more experienced climbers together on the same rope is the way to go.

Also, for David's point 2 above: yes, you need a "guide mode" device. But an ATC guide in guide mode, or a Kong Gigi [ http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Belay-Device-Reviews/Kong-GiGi ] (or any of the similar auto-blocking devices) would all be equivalently safe. It doesn't need to be a Reverso in particular.

 David Coley 01 Nov 2014
In reply to dagibbs:

>... an ATC guide in guide mode, or a Kong Gigi (or any of the similar auto-blocking devices) would all be equivalently safe. It doesn't need to be a Reverso in particular.

Yep, I was using Reverso as a generic term, as in Hover the carpet.

 Misha 01 Nov 2014
In reply to Derry:
If you've got till next April/May that's plenty of time to train up your less experienced partners so you could do the route (or some other route) as two pairs.

 mmmhumous 02 Nov 2014
In reply to Derry:
In short... don't, it's a right faff! I had to do something similar a few years ago. Even with two 50m ropes and all pitches being
Post edited at 15:44
 Jonny2vests 02 Nov 2014
In reply to David Coley:

> Yep, I was using Reverso as a generic term, as in Hover the carpet.

Like a magic carpet? Yeah, that would work.
 David Coley 03 Nov 2014
In reply to mmmhumous:

> In short... don't, it's a right faff!

I really don't think it needs to be right faff. You just need to be in the mood and really get your systems dialled. One of the best we did as a family of 4 was Grooved arete on Tryfan (8 pitches). Theo was only 6. We still managed to overtake two parties of 2. In case you haven't done it, the route is a slab, and I think this is important. Climbing with more than one person on a rope on steep rock would be bad all round as someone will have to hang around on steep ground as the other gets gear out or fights through a crux. They need to be able to stand, chill and take in the view, not be pumping out. Thinking about it, the angle is probably more important than the grade.



 jkarran 03 Nov 2014
In reply to George Ormerod:

> The leader is attached by half ropes to 2 of the seconds. One of the seconds is attached by another half or full rope to the 4th member of the team. The leader leads, brings up 2 and 3 together, then one of them can belay whilst the leader heads off, with the other bringing the 4th person up. Obviously it depends on the route, but it works in the right circumstances (like large enough stances and no big traverses).

That's pretty much what I'd suggest. So long as the 4th person is going to be able to keep up and enough gear is left in to protect them where needed or they're moved to position 2/3 for diagonal/traverse pitches you should be fine. You're basically climbing as two teams while ever it's going well but it's sociable, gets everyone up the route and you can pool resources if it goes wrong.

jk
 GrahamD 03 Nov 2014
In reply to Derry:

My suggestion would be take a headtorch and some warm clothing ! That's a pretty long climb at (guessing) 250m in Novemeber.
 climbwhenready 03 Nov 2014
In reply to David Coley:

As you've done this before, could you comment on putting a young climber in the middle (ie. ~ 5 m from the end) of a rope when climbing as a four? Assuming they're competent to remove pro. I would have thought it would give them more confidence to have someone in front and behind, and easier to give them a tight rope.
OP Derry 03 Nov 2014
In reply to David Coley:

Cheers for the tips. If you could do it with your children of 5 I'm sure I can take some fairly adventurous friends out on a nice long route. Seems like everyone else says its too much off a faff, but I'm pretty sure we'll be fine. Lots of sunlight hours in May, most of the route is fully bolted barring a few threads and gear, no big traverses at all and slabbed for it's entirety.

Had another thought though, what about this scenario:

I lead on both single ropes, bring up the least experienced and another member on one rope via my reverso, and after they've made a headstart, belay the last remaining person up on the other side of my reverso who takes out all the gear. Need some large belay ledges to accommodate all four of us, but it does mean that (as people have mentioned) if something goes awry, I'm not too far away.

Coincidentally, climbed grooved arete on tryfan the other week... definitely could have done it in a three if not four. Cheers for the advice.
 dh7892 03 Nov 2014
In reply to Derry:

Just so you are prepared, I think one of the belays on Sa Gubia Normal is a hanging belay on threads. That could get a bit awkward with threes/fours.

My girlfriend and I started up it in March and bottled it after the first pitch because I'm the only one of us that would have lead the pitches and I'm not great with that level of exposure to hights.

Looks like a great day out but has a very big feel to it.
 David Coley 03 Nov 2014
In reply to climbwhenready:

Yep, they can go at the end or 5m up. Although a tight rope is possible it can only be tight from 40m away and through runners. From 5m away it if possible to just haul them up by hand over the crux if they are small. So it it is all a question of their confidence and whether they are 5 years old or 15.
 David Coley 03 Nov 2014
In reply to Derry:

> I lead on both single ropes, bring up the least experienced and another member on one rope via my reverso, and after they've made a headstart, belay the last remaining person up on the other side of my reverso who takes out all the gear. Need some large belay ledges to accommodate all four of us, but it does mean that (as people have mentioned) if something goes awry, I'm not too far away.

I'm a I bit confused. That is exactly what I suggested I thought.

PS. you don't want to be using two singles, they will be a right pain to pull through a reverso; use two half ropes.

OP Derry 03 Nov 2014
In reply to David Coley:

> I'm a I bit confused. That is exactly what I suggested I thought.

So you did. read it wrong the first time.

OP Derry 03 Nov 2014
In reply to dh7892:

> Just so you are prepared, I think one of the belays on Sa Gubia Normal is a hanging belay on threads. That could get a bit awkward with threes/fours.

Ok, do you know with pitch? might see if we can leapfrog it as I've heard there are several belay options up the rib.

> My girlfriend and I started up it in March and bottled it after the first pitch because I'm the only one of us that would have lead the pitches and I'm not great with that level of exposure to hights.

Shouldn't be too much of a problem. 3 of us have been up big mountain routes before. Its just the least experienced who hasn't, but she is by far the keenest. Will do some 2-3 pitch routes with her before heading up this beauty.


 swmackey 03 Nov 2014
In reply to Derry:

Two 50m ropes with one set up in series (ie two tied on a short distance apart on the bottom)and the other rope rope in parallel with only one tie on. Handle both ropes like halfs at belays (prob best on a guide plate).

I would say put the competent seconds on the series ropes.

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...