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So your leader is on a 50m traversing overhung pitch on a multipitch trad route. They fall 40m up the pitch and become incapacitated hanging in space well away from any rock. How do you reach them? And escape? No ledges to lower to or enough rope to lower to the ground. I've got a few massively complicated ideas but I think ultimately you'd be a bit stuffed...
Post edited at 23:39
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
escape the system, climb over on a prussik, set up belay and haul injured climber up to you, assess your escape options from there. dunno?
escape the system, climb over on a prussik, set up belay and haul injured climber up to you, assess your escape options from there. dunno?
1
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
That sounds difficult.
Poss use slings to escape the system/belay.
In the process tie-off your partner so that he goes no further.
Use the same with prusiks to traverse along the route,making sure of the protection as you go and if unsure back it up with new pieces.Get to place where the last functional protection is.
Make a new belay somewhere here by placing more gear to make the anchors as solid as possible.
Tie off your partner again from the new belay.
Traverse to the old belay again.
Deconstruct that belay.
Carefully move back across to the new belay,removing gear en route and depending on circumstances self belaying.
Double check or even treble check that you are well anchored at the new belay.
Put your partner back on belay.
Carefully lower him to the ground or a safe place.
Depending on circumstances swap rope anchorage for sling anchorage whilst re-arranging rope for abseil.
Either place a large knot on the end of the rope that cannot go through the belay plate, or preferably leave yourself on the end of the rope.
Abseil down yourself by still being able to use both parts of the rope.
Care with counterbalance.
It does seem rather a long process,but so far I have not figured another more succinct approach.
It all depends on lengths of lowering/abseil and the type of ground too.
Anyone else?
Rob
That sounds difficult.
Poss use slings to escape the system/belay.
In the process tie-off your partner so that he goes no further.
Use the same with prusiks to traverse along the route,making sure of the protection as you go and if unsure back it up with new pieces.Get to place where the last functional protection is.
Make a new belay somewhere here by placing more gear to make the anchors as solid as possible.
Tie off your partner again from the new belay.
Traverse to the old belay again.
Deconstruct that belay.
Carefully move back across to the new belay,removing gear en route and depending on circumstances self belaying.
Double check or even treble check that you are well anchored at the new belay.
Put your partner back on belay.
Carefully lower him to the ground or a safe place.
Depending on circumstances swap rope anchorage for sling anchorage whilst re-arranging rope for abseil.
Either place a large knot on the end of the rope that cannot go through the belay plate, or preferably leave yourself on the end of the rope.
Abseil down yourself by still being able to use both parts of the rope.
Care with counterbalance.
It does seem rather a long process,but so far I have not figured another more succinct approach.
It all depends on lengths of lowering/abseil and the type of ground too.
Anyone else?
Rob
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
Escape belay system, poss back up belay depending on direction of load, Prussik over to them and construct new belay above or near to them, may now be possible to lower / counterbalance abseil to the ground, a ledge, etc.
If going down isn't an option it's going to be mighty challenging going up and hauling them out!
Escape belay system, poss back up belay depending on direction of load, Prussik over to them and construct new belay above or near to them, may now be possible to lower / counterbalance abseil to the ground, a ledge, etc.
If going down isn't an option it's going to be mighty challenging going up and hauling them out!
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
If it's overhanging the leader is unlikely to get injured in a fall unless they get hit by falling rock.
If it's overhanging the leader is unlikely to get injured in a fall unless they get hit by falling rock.
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1
All good ideas but all of these are assuming you essentially have a decent rack of gear to construct a new belay. And that there is a suitable new belay in exactly the right place. Also if you're seconding a pitch I think its fair to say you probably will only have a few slings and prussics. But then I guess you could always strip some gear on the prussic up...
I know its unlikely in the extreme but its more of a mental exercise than anything!
I know its unlikely in the extreme but its more of a mental exercise than anything!
In reply to The Pylon King:
If you cut the rope you have 10m of rope left to escape with. Rather you than me!
If you cut the rope you have 10m of rope left to escape with. Rather you than me!
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In reply to The Pylon King:
Yep, cut the rope. After he survives bouncing of the screes, escapes from his four day ordeal being entombed in a peat hag, hauls his badly broken body doon the Allt a Mhuillin to Torlundy before flagging doon a taxi tae the Belford...... He'll thank ye once the royalties start flooding in
Yep, cut the rope. After he survives bouncing of the screes, escapes from his four day ordeal being entombed in a peat hag, hauls his badly broken body doon the Allt a Mhuillin to Torlundy before flagging doon a taxi tae the Belford...... He'll thank ye once the royalties start flooding in
In reply to Joak:
Thank you for your input. But I've actually had worse seconds than you. (They shall remain nameless for the time being, Jim, don't worry).
> Yep, cut the rope. After he survives bouncing of the screes, escapes from his four day ordeal being entombed in a peat hag, hauls his badly broken body doon the Allt a Mhuillin to Torlundy before flagging doon a taxi tae the Belford......
Thank you for your input. But I've actually had worse seconds than you. (They shall remain nameless for the time being, Jim, don't worry).
Post edited at 06:03
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
Actually I'd have 20m of rope left.Some of us don't use 50m ropes,but prefer 60m ropes as they provide more use in the event of abseiling and can be more useful in the Alps.
Actually I'd have 20m of rope left.Some of us don't use 50m ropes,but prefer 60m ropes as they provide more use in the event of abseiling and can be more useful in the Alps.
1
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
As dr_botnik has described and then attach the injured climber to your harness and abseil down to the starting position with them (leaving all runners in place). Attach the injured climber to the belay, prussic back up to your highest belay, dismantle it and down climb, removing runners as you go and using a clove hitch to take in the slack as you descend. Once you reach the belay, clip the injured climber to yourself, abseil down to the next belay, and so on until you reach the ground.
Of course, the real answeris not to get into the situation in the first place, which can be dealt with more easily by taking extra equipment, i.e. plan for the accident before you set off. Its not very rock and roll but will potentially return you both to safety.
As dr_botnik has described and then attach the injured climber to your harness and abseil down to the starting position with them (leaving all runners in place). Attach the injured climber to the belay, prussic back up to your highest belay, dismantle it and down climb, removing runners as you go and using a clove hitch to take in the slack as you descend. Once you reach the belay, clip the injured climber to yourself, abseil down to the next belay, and so on until you reach the ground.
Of course, the real answeris not to get into the situation in the first place, which can be dealt with more easily by taking extra equipment, i.e. plan for the accident before you set off. Its not very rock and roll but will potentially return you both to safety.
In reply to Misha:
Agreed. I guess when they fall from a traverse they could pendulum into something then swing back into space?
> If it's overhanging the leader is unlikely to get injured in a fall unless they get hit by falling rock.
Agreed. I guess when they fall from a traverse they could pendulum into something then swing back into space?
In reply to The Pylon King:
The snag with that is that your partner might survive and write a book about it with a name like 'Tapping the Abyss', and then you'd have to watch while he makes huge amounts of money out of it ...
> Cut the rope and leg it.
The snag with that is that your partner might survive and write a book about it with a name like 'Tapping the Abyss', and then you'd have to watch while he makes huge amounts of money out of it ...
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
Escape the system but keep your weight on the rope using prusiks in case the belay blows and leave some slack in the rope between you and the belay.
prusik up to them.
get them vertical with a chest sling and do any first aid needed.
beef up the top runner to form a belay.
tie the rope off at the new top belay.
rap down to them (this is why you left enough slack to swing out far enough from the wall to reach them), clip them into a y-hang and cut their rope.
rap down through the runners with the leader back to the belay.
prusik back up, set a retrievable rap and rap to the lower belay.
rap back down with the casualty to the base.
Escape the system but keep your weight on the rope using prusiks in case the belay blows and leave some slack in the rope between you and the belay.
prusik up to them.
get them vertical with a chest sling and do any first aid needed.
beef up the top runner to form a belay.
tie the rope off at the new top belay.
rap down to them (this is why you left enough slack to swing out far enough from the wall to reach them), clip them into a y-hang and cut their rope.
rap down through the runners with the leader back to the belay.
prusik back up, set a retrievable rap and rap to the lower belay.
rap back down with the casualty to the base.
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
Shout for help, if no one comes , climb out to the leader making sure all the gear is good on the way. Back up gear if it needs it, remove one of the ropes from the leader and as much gear as you can, abb or self belay to safety.
There is always a way, important to stay positive and not shit your self.
Shout for help, if no one comes , climb out to the leader making sure all the gear is good on the way. Back up gear if it needs it, remove one of the ropes from the leader and as much gear as you can, abb or self belay to safety.
There is always a way, important to stay positive and not shit your self.
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
Step 1: Phone Mountain Rescue (assuming by 'incapacitated' you mean 'injured/potentially injured') or get someone else to phone them.
Step 2: Follow their instructions. They may/may not wish you to attempt the rescue.
If you don't have your phone on you, I would rather attempt to descend to the ground for help than get myself stuck trying a complicated/hard rescue.
Step 1: Phone Mountain Rescue (assuming by 'incapacitated' you mean 'injured/potentially injured') or get someone else to phone them.
Step 2: Follow their instructions. They may/may not wish you to attempt the rescue.
If you don't have your phone on you, I would rather attempt to descend to the ground for help than get myself stuck trying a complicated/hard rescue.
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
Assuming you can not just shout or call someone to get rescue quickly.
You escape the belay system.
You setup a z pulley system as per alpine crevasse rescue and attempt to haul them as close to the last bit of gear from which they are hanging.
Keeping one rope in tension , you have one with approx 10m of slack.
You traverse out to them
It's a multi pitch trad route with traversing, and overhangs, so you have half ropes. If you didn't you would have said in the OP.
You remove the leaders rack, you untie one half rope from them. You check to see if they are conscious as incapacitated does not mean unconscious. You do what you can for them. This might mean attaching additional slings to their harness in case they invert.
You attach them to the rock with what gear is available. So they are attached with 3 or more pieces, and tied off.
You retreat with the second 50m half rope (which you could untie as it was no longer in tension) and the leaders rack.
You make what escape you can with the gear you have, and a 50m half rope. You use the abseil tat as necessary.
You go get rescue.
Assuming you can not just shout or call someone to get rescue quickly.
You escape the belay system.
You setup a z pulley system as per alpine crevasse rescue and attempt to haul them as close to the last bit of gear from which they are hanging.
Keeping one rope in tension , you have one with approx 10m of slack.
You traverse out to them
It's a multi pitch trad route with traversing, and overhangs, so you have half ropes. If you didn't you would have said in the OP.
You remove the leaders rack, you untie one half rope from them. You check to see if they are conscious as incapacitated does not mean unconscious. You do what you can for them. This might mean attaching additional slings to their harness in case they invert.
You attach them to the rock with what gear is available. So they are attached with 3 or more pieces, and tied off.
You retreat with the second 50m half rope (which you could untie as it was no longer in tension) and the leaders rack.
You make what escape you can with the gear you have, and a 50m half rope. You use the abseil tat as necessary.
You go get rescue.
Post edited at 15:16
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
An alternative option, I don't think anyone has mentioned yet (maybe for a good reason!). Lower them down to the end of the rope, start climbing using their weight moving down as a belay. If you can ab on half of the fifty meter rope from their last peice of gear (theoretically, as assumed by others above me) , they will have landed on the ground by the time you have done 25m of their 40m traverse. In this situation you would have to get the prussicks out, still using your partner as dead weight/anchor, Prussic across towards them until you have enough rope your end to reach the ground, switch to belay and ab off.
If the ab is 20-25m long then you would get to their last piece of gear then back it up and lower yourself down still using them as dead weight.
If the ab is greater that 25m then you would have to lower them down further once you have got to their last bit of gear (again backing it up, or doing this process from their second last bit of gear, third, so on..) once they have touched the ground. tie them off. ab down their rope.
Easy. No escaping the system really needed,
An alternative option, I don't think anyone has mentioned yet (maybe for a good reason!). Lower them down to the end of the rope, start climbing using their weight moving down as a belay. If you can ab on half of the fifty meter rope from their last peice of gear (theoretically, as assumed by others above me) , they will have landed on the ground by the time you have done 25m of their 40m traverse. In this situation you would have to get the prussicks out, still using your partner as dead weight/anchor, Prussic across towards them until you have enough rope your end to reach the ground, switch to belay and ab off.
If the ab is 20-25m long then you would get to their last piece of gear then back it up and lower yourself down still using them as dead weight.
If the ab is greater that 25m then you would have to lower them down further once you have got to their last bit of gear (again backing it up, or doing this process from their second last bit of gear, third, so on..) once they have touched the ground. tie them off. ab down their rope.
Easy. No escaping the system really needed,
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In reply to Cheese Monkey:
Hmm sounds like a fun one! Can you flesh out this hypothetical nightmare scenario, as it matters a bit what the pitch before and after look like, But I gather when you say "no ledges to lower to and not enough rope to lower to the ground" I am thinking worse case scenario, so a 9 pitch all day affair, all overhanging, with close to hanging belays at best - all the through, so you are 5 pitches off the deck, with no phone reception, no PLB, with a 2 day hike out and your partner, who weighs just over a stone more than you, if feeling a bit gutsy and decides to run it out a bit as he does not trust the slightly chossy placements until he pulls a block the size of a telly off and with a death like grip hangs onto it until him and the wall briefly collide, leaving him unconscious, non responsive, and dripping in space......
Now my question is this: having already shown a pretty scant regard for safety and planning so far, did they undertake this little adventure with their trusty well used 60m single sport rope or did they opt for half ropes, as its trad?
Hmm sounds like a fun one! Can you flesh out this hypothetical nightmare scenario, as it matters a bit what the pitch before and after look like, But I gather when you say "no ledges to lower to and not enough rope to lower to the ground" I am thinking worse case scenario, so a 9 pitch all day affair, all overhanging, with close to hanging belays at best - all the through, so you are 5 pitches off the deck, with no phone reception, no PLB, with a 2 day hike out and your partner, who weighs just over a stone more than you, if feeling a bit gutsy and decides to run it out a bit as he does not trust the slightly chossy placements until he pulls a block the size of a telly off and with a death like grip hangs onto it until him and the wall briefly collide, leaving him unconscious, non responsive, and dripping in space......
Now my question is this: having already shown a pretty scant regard for safety and planning so far, did they undertake this little adventure with their trusty well used 60m single sport rope or did they opt for half ropes, as its trad?
In reply to The Green Giant:
Absolutely no way that would work. With their weight on the rope there's no way you'd be able to remove gear, and most likely they'd pull you off the traverse. The end result would probably be both of you hanging on each end of the rope!
> An alternative option, I don't think anyone has mentioned yet (maybe for a good reason!). Lower them down to the end of the rope, start climbing using their weight moving down as a belay.
>
>
Absolutely no way that would work. With their weight on the rope there's no way you'd be able to remove gear, and most likely they'd pull you off the traverse. The end result would probably be both of you hanging on each end of the rope!
In reply to Michael Gordon:
I think the main issue is making an anchor at the top point.
Any suggestions on how to do it without being able to do that? And without a book deal
I think the main issue is making an anchor at the top point.
Any suggestions on how to do it without being able to do that? And without a book deal
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
Lovely! Half ropes makes a big difference.
How about this:
1) Beef up belay to cope with an upward pull.
2) Tie off both ropes with a little extra slack in one, (the one clipped into the 2nd last bit of pro) leaving sleeping beauty suspended by the one clipped to the last pc of pro / high poin, but still belayed on both.
3) Escape the system and Prussik up to the high point / last bit of gear, back this up if possible and then
4) Un clip the un weighted rope from is high point and prussik back down the remaining weighted rope, stripping the gear as you go (but Leave the odd bit of pro on the weighted rope as insurance) until you are just above the height where SB is stranded
5) Find and build a good belay as close as possible to this point, clip in to this and pull SB into this belay using the half rope that is still attached to him (but freed from the high point) using an Italian hitch.
Sounds a bit complex but at least this was there is no hoisting involved which is bloody hard / if not impossible especially where there is no help from the injured party.
Depending what state they are in, you can now plan your escape......
Lovely! Half ropes makes a big difference.
How about this:
1) Beef up belay to cope with an upward pull.
2) Tie off both ropes with a little extra slack in one, (the one clipped into the 2nd last bit of pro) leaving sleeping beauty suspended by the one clipped to the last pc of pro / high poin, but still belayed on both.
3) Escape the system and Prussik up to the high point / last bit of gear, back this up if possible and then
4) Un clip the un weighted rope from is high point and prussik back down the remaining weighted rope, stripping the gear as you go (but Leave the odd bit of pro on the weighted rope as insurance) until you are just above the height where SB is stranded
5) Find and build a good belay as close as possible to this point, clip in to this and pull SB into this belay using the half rope that is still attached to him (but freed from the high point) using an Italian hitch.
Sounds a bit complex but at least this was there is no hoisting involved which is bloody hard / if not impossible especially where there is no help from the injured party.
Depending what state they are in, you can now plan your escape......
Post edited at 19:29
In reply to taddersandbadger:
Sounds like we've got a complete solution for most eventualities! That was my original thought, using one of the ropes to pull them in to the wall but couldn't get my head around how to work it.
Let's all say a prayer that the top piece is bomber, because it has to be for all of these solutions before the second belay is built. If it blew at any time I really don't want to think of the result!
Sounds like we've got a complete solution for most eventualities! That was my original thought, using one of the ropes to pull them in to the wall but couldn't get my head around how to work it.
Let's all say a prayer that the top piece is bomber, because it has to be for all of these solutions before the second belay is built. If it blew at any time I really don't want to think of the result!
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
Lots of good info above and some not quite so good but well worth practising these things in my opinion.
Last thing you want in a rescue situation is to be flapping around trying to remember what someone wrote on UKC.
Lots of good info above and some not quite so good but well worth practising these things in my opinion.
Last thing you want in a rescue situation is to be flapping around trying to remember what someone wrote on UKC.
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
In reality they are probably in trouble. I don't think anyone does very well dangling in a harness (probably head down) if they are incapacitated for very long.
In reality they are probably in trouble. I don't think anyone does very well dangling in a harness (probably head down) if they are incapacitated for very long.
In reply to Cheese Monkey: Everyone seems to think that prussiking up will be easy but it's traversing so it will be tough and the leader fell off - presumably because it's hard up there - so I imagine any of the above rescues will actually be a complete nightmare.
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
I think the leader would be stuffed, the ideas of escaping the system and traversing along would take to long, we learnt in caving that if somebody is hanging in a harness unconcious then you have 5 to 10 mins to get them down before toxic shock sets in.
I think the leader would be stuffed, the ideas of escaping the system and traversing along would take to long, we learnt in caving that if somebody is hanging in a harness unconcious then you have 5 to 10 mins to get them down before toxic shock sets in.
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
Get my iphone and call MRT probably the first step. After that get to the leader. If incapacitated and breathing, maintain the airway and wait. If not breathing, I'm not right sure...
Get my iphone and call MRT probably the first step. After that get to the leader. If incapacitated and breathing, maintain the airway and wait. If not breathing, I'm not right sure...
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
There's a fair amount of research showing that an immobile climber free hanging in a harness will die within 30 minutes or so (can't remember the medical reasons why) so what ever you do you need to get their weight off the rope and you need do it quick!!
There's a fair amount of research showing that an immobile climber free hanging in a harness will die within 30 minutes or so (can't remember the medical reasons why) so what ever you do you need to get their weight off the rope and you need do it quick!!
In reply to Doghouse:
I think it's much shorter than that, about 10 minutes before theyre in trouble. The reason is, the leg loops cut off circulation and toxins accumulate in teh blood in the elgs. Then youre dammed if you do and dammed if you dont because if you rescue them after that happens the toxic blood flows to the heart and can kill them. This is important in caving where you're always jumaring and rockfall happens more than in climbing, so we all practice cut-rope and counterbalance rescues and get it down to under 5 minutes in case it happens.
I think it's much shorter than that, about 10 minutes before theyre in trouble. The reason is, the leg loops cut off circulation and toxins accumulate in teh blood in the elgs. Then youre dammed if you do and dammed if you dont because if you rescue them after that happens the toxic blood flows to the heart and can kill them. This is important in caving where you're always jumaring and rockfall happens more than in climbing, so we all practice cut-rope and counterbalance rescues and get it down to under 5 minutes in case it happens.
In reply to mh554:
Then, while you're waiting, cheer the casualty up with the story of Tony Kurz .
> Get my iphone and call MRT
Then, while you're waiting, cheer the casualty up with the story of Tony Kurz .
1
In reply to Hat Dude:
No one said it had to be cold! In my mind it is temperate and a sea king can get to me!
> Then, while you're waiting, cheer the casualty up with the story of Tony Kurz .
No one said it had to be cold! In my mind it is temperate and a sea king can get to me!
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
Short answer, you are pretty stuffed
Your profile says you are based in Bristol, have a word with Jack at Redpoint about self rescue; I had a quick hour and a half course with him on Saturday and it had some really useful stuff in. Much less advanced than rescuing an unconscious leader off a traverse but a good grounding (escaping the system, prussik technique etc.) and a bit of a bargain. I'd done some of the stuff before but it was totally new to my climbing partner and really well taught.
In practice, assuming the belay is bomb-proof and will take an upward load...
-Escape the system.
-Shout a lot.
-Phone everyone you can think of.
-Think about how much easier this would be at Stanage on a bank holiday.
-Triple check the belay is solid.
-Prussik or otherwise make your way to the leader.
-Gaffer tape up anything that is leaking, go through his pockets. No sense in being lonely and poor/hungry
-Construct a new belay as close to the leader as possible.
-Think about how much easier this would be at Stanage on a bank holiday.
-Head back down the rope and clean the old belay and runners.
-Back up the rope again. Then try to lower the leader with the extra-rope.
-Think about how much easier this would be at Stanage on a bank holiday.
-Hopefully by this point someone else has turned up and can sort out the almost inevitable clusterf*ck of casualty and ropes.
...
Short answer, you are pretty stuffed
Your profile says you are based in Bristol, have a word with Jack at Redpoint about self rescue; I had a quick hour and a half course with him on Saturday and it had some really useful stuff in. Much less advanced than rescuing an unconscious leader off a traverse but a good grounding (escaping the system, prussik technique etc.) and a bit of a bargain. I'd done some of the stuff before but it was totally new to my climbing partner and really well taught.
In practice, assuming the belay is bomb-proof and will take an upward load...
-Escape the system.
-Shout a lot.
-Phone everyone you can think of.
-Think about how much easier this would be at Stanage on a bank holiday.
-Triple check the belay is solid.
-Prussik or otherwise make your way to the leader.
-Gaffer tape up anything that is leaking, go through his pockets. No sense in being lonely and poor/hungry
-Construct a new belay as close to the leader as possible.
-Think about how much easier this would be at Stanage on a bank holiday.
-Head back down the rope and clean the old belay and runners.
-Back up the rope again. Then try to lower the leader with the extra-rope.
-Think about how much easier this would be at Stanage on a bank holiday.
-Hopefully by this point someone else has turned up and can sort out the almost inevitable clusterf*ck of casualty and ropes.
...
In reply to Red Rover:
There's a great deal of variation in that from case to case it seems, it could be very dangerous and then again it might not be. When it was first recognised as a danger in the industrial world there was quite a campaign to raise awareness, arguably it raised a bit too much awareness and somewhat exaggerated the risks.
For example there was much advice dished out that it was terribly dangerous to allow someone (conscious or unconscious) to lie down having spent any time dangling in a harness. The HSE did some meta-research (tying together various studies) and concluded that it was actually more dangerous to vary the standard first-aid procedure. (ie: if they're unconscious but breathing, put them in the recovery position).
> ... then you have 5 to 10 mins to get them down before toxic shock sets in.
There's a great deal of variation in that from case to case it seems, it could be very dangerous and then again it might not be. When it was first recognised as a danger in the industrial world there was quite a campaign to raise awareness, arguably it raised a bit too much awareness and somewhat exaggerated the risks.
For example there was much advice dished out that it was terribly dangerous to allow someone (conscious or unconscious) to lie down having spent any time dangling in a harness. The HSE did some meta-research (tying together various studies) and concluded that it was actually more dangerous to vary the standard first-aid procedure. (ie: if they're unconscious but breathing, put them in the recovery position).
In reply to Hat Dude:
Case in point. Tony Kurz lasted a lot more than 10 minutes. (Poor bugger, ultimately it might have been kinder if he hadn't.)
> Then, while you're waiting, cheer the casualty up with the story of Tony Kurz .
Case in point. Tony Kurz lasted a lot more than 10 minutes. (Poor bugger, ultimately it might have been kinder if he hadn't.)
Post edited at 13:00
In reply to Doghouse:
I think it might be more accurate to state that a free hanging climber "might" die within that time. Others have survived for far longer, including a friend - but then he's one hell of a tough bugger.
> There's a fair amount of research showing that an immobile climber free hanging in a harness will die within 30 minutes or so
I think it might be more accurate to state that a free hanging climber "might" die within that time. Others have survived for far longer, including a friend - but then he's one hell of a tough bugger.
In reply to David Coley:
Not just a free hanging climber in this hypothetical scenario though - its an incapacitated free hanging climber. I suspect there is a pretty big difference !
Not just a free hanging climber in this hypothetical scenario though - its an incapacitated free hanging climber. I suspect there is a pretty big difference !
In reply to GrahamD:
Yes, that's my understanding. Concious (sp?) casualty wriggles and moves a fair bit so the risk isn't really present but is with an imobile/incapacitated casualty.
Yes, that's my understanding. Concious (sp?) casualty wriggles and moves a fair bit so the risk isn't really present but is with an imobile/incapacitated casualty.
In reply to andrewmcleod:
I would agree on first to call rescue and following instructions. Properly trained rescue personel are generally way more efficient and quicker than any climbers out there. They got the right equipment, man power and training. You als need them when there is a chance of harness hanging syndrom.
As for harness hang syndrom, in my training if they are uncontious; about 10 minutes. However if the are contious, discomfort causes people to shift there bodyweight to release the blockage.
If there is a change of harness hang syndrom:
- Keep the victim vertical
- When you get to the ground, keep the victim hanging from there legloops, untill the medic did there thing (IV to dilute and flush the system). Make sure you can get off, without removing tension to the victims legloops.
I would agree on first to call rescue and following instructions. Properly trained rescue personel are generally way more efficient and quicker than any climbers out there. They got the right equipment, man power and training. You als need them when there is a chance of harness hanging syndrom.
As for harness hang syndrom, in my training if they are uncontious; about 10 minutes. However if the are contious, discomfort causes people to shift there bodyweight to release the blockage.
If there is a change of harness hang syndrom:
- Keep the victim vertical
- When you get to the ground, keep the victim hanging from there legloops, untill the medic did there thing (IV to dilute and flush the system). Make sure you can get off, without removing tension to the victims legloops.
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
I'm glad I never went climbing with you.
If the leader is incapacitated, then its likely he'll need medical help. So I'd concentrate on calling for it!! You know! whistle, phone, white hanky sort of thing.
There doesn't seem much point in getting him down when you still then have to get help anyway.
Given there are that many threads on here about mobile use in the hills I don't see this as much of a problem.
I'm glad I never went climbing with you.
If the leader is incapacitated, then its likely he'll need medical help. So I'd concentrate on calling for it!! You know! whistle, phone, white hanky sort of thing.
There doesn't seem much point in getting him down when you still then have to get help anyway.
Given there are that many threads on here about mobile use in the hills I don't see this as much of a problem.
In reply to Dave Perry:
With that attitude I'm glad I've never even met you.
What you have said is so blatantly obvious I thought it didn't need saying.
With that attitude I'm glad I've never even met you.
What you have said is so blatantly obvious I thought it didn't need saying.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
If it really is an emergency and the priority is getting the leader down as fast as possible I think this approach might be worth considering - it depends a lot on how much of a traverse it is, how steep, how convinced you are that the last runner is completely sound, how straight the run of the rope is, how heavy the leader is and, of course, assuming you aren't more than 50m up. You might need to be creative if this is urgent.
And depending on how heavy each of you is, even both ending up both hanging on the rope wouldn't necessarily be disastrous as long that runner doesn't come out and you can reach the leader's rope. Not a situation I would volunteer to test though!
> (In reply to The Green Giant)
>
> [...]
>
> Absolutely no way that would work. With their weight on the rope there's no way you'd be able to remove gear, and most likely they'd pull you off the traverse. The end result would probably be both of you hanging on each end of the rope!
>
> [...]
>
> Absolutely no way that would work. With their weight on the rope there's no way you'd be able to remove gear, and most likely they'd pull you off the traverse. The end result would probably be both of you hanging on each end of the rope!
If it really is an emergency and the priority is getting the leader down as fast as possible I think this approach might be worth considering - it depends a lot on how much of a traverse it is, how steep, how convinced you are that the last runner is completely sound, how straight the run of the rope is, how heavy the leader is and, of course, assuming you aren't more than 50m up. You might need to be creative if this is urgent.
And depending on how heavy each of you is, even both ending up both hanging on the rope wouldn't necessarily be disastrous as long that runner doesn't come out and you can reach the leader's rope. Not a situation I would volunteer to test though!
Post edited at 18:40
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Yeah, I still think this is the best option. Just couldn't be bothered arguing - thank you. Even if you do get pulled off by the weight of the the unconscious climber, you can then use the sport climbing technique to bounce back up to the next bit of gear. This really isn't going to be likely as a 90 degree bend and 40m of rope drag isn't going to make them pull on you too much as you start climbing.
As for removing gear: you simply pull on the quickdraw till your harness is touching it, assisted by the dead weight on the end of the rope, and unclip it. This process would get the suspended climber down to the ground, thus likely saving their life.
http://dynamicrescue.com/blog/docs/Suspension-trauma.pdf
Yeah, I still think this is the best option. Just couldn't be bothered arguing - thank you. Even if you do get pulled off by the weight of the the unconscious climber, you can then use the sport climbing technique to bounce back up to the next bit of gear. This really isn't going to be likely as a 90 degree bend and 40m of rope drag isn't going to make them pull on you too much as you start climbing.
As for removing gear: you simply pull on the quickdraw till your harness is touching it, assisted by the dead weight on the end of the rope, and unclip it. This process would get the suspended climber down to the ground, thus likely saving their life.
http://dynamicrescue.com/blog/docs/Suspension-trauma.pdf
In reply to Dave Garnett and The Green Giant:
It's an interesting idea, and I do wonder if it would be a good quick solution on a long fairly straight up single pitch route where the leader has used up too much rope to be able to lower them down again, have taken a bad fall and are hanging on the rope unconscious. As you climbed they would give you a nice tight toprope!
A traverse however would be a totally different kettle of fish and as you heroically pendulum after being instantly pulled off after unclipping each bit of gear (assuming you are able to do so, unlikely I'd say), you'd have to hope you didn't end up in a similar state to your partner!
It's an interesting idea, and I do wonder if it would be a good quick solution on a long fairly straight up single pitch route where the leader has used up too much rope to be able to lower them down again, have taken a bad fall and are hanging on the rope unconscious. As you climbed they would give you a nice tight toprope!
A traverse however would be a totally different kettle of fish and as you heroically pendulum after being instantly pulled off after unclipping each bit of gear (assuming you are able to do so, unlikely I'd say), you'd have to hope you didn't end up in a similar state to your partner!
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
Depends how quickly they're dying but you've got options, none of them trivial and all of them starting with calling for help. You need at least a sling, Prusik or shoelace to get this started and we're assuming the top runner is going to stay put:
Get onto a Prusik on the live rope, take your plate off the live rope, escape the belay, once your weight is on the sling free up as much slack rope between you and the belay as you can leaving the end tied into the bottom (multi-directional) belay. Ascend the live rope to the top runner salvaging some gear on route, leave some as back-up. Convert the top runner to a fixed belay. Descend the strand you ascended on a belay plate but now also clipped to the leaders' strand, collect them, sling them to your belay plate hanging between your legs and free them from their strand cutting them free if need be (saw with cord/shoelace if no knife) and abseil to the bottom belay or nearest decent ledge. Make your partner stable if you can then reassess whether to sit it out or salvage your gear/rope and continue the retreat.
Edit: I have assumed a rising traverse, if it's truly horizontal then it's a lot messier.
jk
> I think ultimately you'd be a bit stuffed...
Depends how quickly they're dying but you've got options, none of them trivial and all of them starting with calling for help. You need at least a sling, Prusik or shoelace to get this started and we're assuming the top runner is going to stay put:
Get onto a Prusik on the live rope, take your plate off the live rope, escape the belay, once your weight is on the sling free up as much slack rope between you and the belay as you can leaving the end tied into the bottom (multi-directional) belay. Ascend the live rope to the top runner salvaging some gear on route, leave some as back-up. Convert the top runner to a fixed belay. Descend the strand you ascended on a belay plate but now also clipped to the leaders' strand, collect them, sling them to your belay plate hanging between your legs and free them from their strand cutting them free if need be (saw with cord/shoelace if no knife) and abseil to the bottom belay or nearest decent ledge. Make your partner stable if you can then reassess whether to sit it out or salvage your gear/rope and continue the retreat.
Edit: I have assumed a rising traverse, if it's truly horizontal then it's a lot messier.
jk
Post edited at 10:47
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
Obvious?? Really? common sense isn't necessarily common practice. And there are a wealth of posts on UKC which prove that.
BTW The "I'm glad I've not climbed with you" bit wasn't meant to be personal - sorry!
Obvious?? Really? common sense isn't necessarily common practice. And there are a wealth of posts on UKC which prove that.
BTW The "I'm glad I've not climbed with you" bit wasn't meant to be personal - sorry!
In reply to GrahamD:
Yep, I realised he was incapacitated and my comment stands. It is possible to survive for a longer time if you are are lucky. Others might not have been so lucky.
> Not just a free hanging climber in this hypothetical scenario though - its an incapacitated free hanging climber. I suspect there is a pretty big difference !
Yep, I realised he was incapacitated and my comment stands. It is possible to survive for a longer time if you are are lucky. Others might not have been so lucky.
Post edited at 21:37
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