UKC

A bit of idle discussion while waiting for winter conditions to come in...

Do you have a preference for winter climbing over rock climbing or vice versa? Just interested - especially in the reasons behind that.

Some keen winter climbers are more interested in winter stuff, even if they do a reasonable amount of rock climbing. Is it because winter climbing is more 'full on' - more serious, adventurous and committing, generally longer routes, more physically demanding overall, basically more hardcore? Or is it because climbing with tools is more interesting? Or because the winter landscape is more appealing? Or, for those living in Scotland, simply because there can be more opportunities to go winter climbing while rock climbing is blighted by rain and midges (not just a Scottish issue of course!)? Something els

Whereas others prefer rock climbing, even if they dabble with winter stuff. I guess less committing, safer (in general - obviously it depends on what you do), more comfortable, more convenient and doesn't involve tools.

Personally I don't really have a preference, I just enjoy both types of climbing (as well as dry tooling), depending on what's in. Mixing it up (literally) through the year adds variety and means I don't get bored as each season winds to a close as there's the new season to look forward to with its own rewards and challenges. I suspect many other people are the same.

It's a personal thing and clearly there are no right and wrong answers. I'm just interested to know what others think.

In reply to Misha:

I think for me I have an internal "effort to pleasure" formula running in my head, and that winter climbing (the little I have done) seems to require a disproportionate amount of effort for the pleasure I gain from it. I have usually been cold, exhausted and somewhat frightened......all states I try to avoid! Give me warm rock, a nice view and good company and I am happy!

In reply to Misha:

For me personally I prefer winter, I used to just climb rock but I have lost interest in pushing grades on rock, I do still enjoy a long mountain route but for me rock climbing is just a way of getting ready for winter.

Winter for me offers far more, I think it's because I learnt to climb whilst doing a ski season so winter climbing seems normal

In reply to Misha:

>

I take this view also. Certainly there's an added element to being in the hills in winter - they feel more wild even though it's all still fairly accessible. My default position has always been though that winter matches up to rock climbing if it's a good winter season, otherwise the much more reliable rock climbing beats it every time.

In reply to Misha:

I definitely prefer winter climbing. I always loved watching documentaries about Everest and that was what inspired me to take up mountaineering and climbing in the first place. From my point of view, nothing gives you a true mountaineering experience better than winter climbing, especially a long route ending up on a high summit.

In reply to Misha:

For me there is just something magical about the mountains in winter. I find it spiritually uplifting in a way that no other season comes near to engendering. I can relish the exposure on a high, hanging belay in summer but I honestly get a bigger thrill from cold feet crunching snow in the car park. Wind and weather battering my hardshell, cold crisp air searing my nostrils, gloves crusted with rime, snow and ice under my crampons. I get a ridiculous level of pleasure from seeing how my clothing system deters the elements, staying comfortable in stop-start, high exertion activity in extreme weather is a reward in itself. I has to be when I am so moderate a climber.

Everything about winter is a joy. Even long walk-ins. Well, apart from the huge pack. I just bloody love it.

In reply to Misha:

I much prefer winter climbing. because it feels like more of an adventure.
I find it is also good for my head, While rock climbing I often freak out from exposure, while in winter I just man up and get up stuff. knowing there is a pig pile of snow at the bottom probably gives me a false sense of security.

In reply to Misha:

I prefer winter. Its the snowball fights! Gliscading is fun too!

In reply to Misha:

Winter allows you to fool yourself into thinking you're in a wilderness. I've had a day where all I did was walk around Llyn Llydaw, but with the weather and the huge drifts of snow it felt completely cut off from civilisation.

Only really done a bit of winter hillwalking, going to try a push into winter climbing this season. Seems like winter takes a lot more effort to get into your stride, get all your kit etc perfect, catch the early starts, so there's a lot more satisfaction when it goes well?

In reply to Misha:

Winter, purely cause it fits my annual schedule so well. Also rock climbing scares me, for a reason I am yet to discover. I freak out on the easiest of trad, same on sport, yet will happily solo ice-falls both big and small, a well as short mixed lines.

As for my annual schedule, I spend the entirety of my summers in Svalbard, which has f*ck all readily accessible climbing, so training for trad/sport is a waste of time, thus glacier hikes and mountain trips are the order of the day. I also work as a geologist so by the time I return the last thing I want to think about is looking at another rock or another night in a tent. This gives me two good months to write up my work before winter, pretend to train at the bouldering hall, shake the post tax-free alcohol thirst, then the moment the ice is in, its 3/4 days a week on some of the finest ice in Norway... sheer bliss

Though I really wish I was better on rock/ had a reason to get better, I'm always a bit lost when the ice goes

In reply to Misha:

I wonder if this being posted in the winter climbing forum is skewing the replies?

In reply to Misha:

What? People climb in summer too?

In reply to Jim Fraser:


What? People climb in winter too?

To the OP, I like both maybe equally, but they are so different they can't really be compared.

BUT I know one thing, camping in Scotland in midwinter in appalling weather in a tiny tent with a cheap inadequate sleeping bag is NOT MUCH FUN.

In reply to Misha:

Winter, i like the cold, simple.

In reply to Misha:

I'll try and redress the balance a bit. I much prefer summer rock climbing. Winter conditions are so fickle in the UK and long cold plods through the snow to get to a winter route just seem to suck any pleasure out of the day

In reply to Misha:

I find this is an oft asked question from my walking clients.

I answer that it always seems that I am looking forward to the other - When I have failed to second a VS climb, pumped up and feeling inadequate, I yearn for the winter. Then, when I have the most excruciating hot aches, have been battered by spindrift on a poor belay before 'climbing' up some cruddy unconsolidated rubbish, I yearn for lovely dry warm rock.

Of course the answer is that both are wonderful in their own right, and for different reasons, and when the conditions are right, both are as close to Nirvana as it gets








(But on balance, Winter, coz I'm better at it!

In reply to Misha:

I used to like them both equally but as I've got older, I'm now 66, I am beginning to feel the cold a little more and the prospect of wading through waist high snow is a lot less appealing. Added to this, the increasing crowds are making it more difficult to avoid being behind another party so increasing the danger, it is therefore highly likely that I will give it up and concentrate on rock climbing, especially in the warm.

Al

In reply to Misha:

Is it technically easier to feel heroic in winter climbing than in rock climbing?

In reply to Misha:

I would have to say rock climbing/summer rather than winter mountaineering. May be due to rock climbing feeling more secure, more options in summer, if its not clear on the high crags then go to sea cliffs etc. If its wet on the west then maybe the east coast will be dry? I do enjoy winter climbing when it all comes together, but that happens so infrequently.

In reply to Misha:

Winter. There is heaps more gear to buy. =D

I think I prefer winter because it feels wilder, and maybe requires more mental strength to deal with the cold and the weather and the darkness (not the same thing as bravery). But big mountain rock routes are similar.

In reply to Misha:


Who's waiting. I did a winter route today.

In reply to abseil:


Really? I spent Christmas in Coire an t-Sneachda once and slept on a rock slab in a 2-season sleeping bag and an RAF issue bivi bag. Loads-a-fun. Two in the morning of the second night was a bit blowy though. (Fuelled by Co-op Christmas pudding. Forget Kendal mint cake. Co-op Christmas pudding is winter climber rocker fuel.)

In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Good on you! Ok so I meant while waiting for reliable conditions over a weekend that would justify a round trip from Birmingham.

In reply to Misha:

Neither, I prefer Spring climbing when winter is clinging on but the seasons are changing and days getting longer and calm sunny days on rock and ice are magical.

Some interesting replies. A few people have said that they prefer winter because it is essentially more of an 'experience' in all sorts of ways. Whilst others have mentioned the appeal of rock climbing due to it being less 'hardcore', as well as less conditions dependent. Different sides of pretty much the same coin and which one appeals more will depend on your perspective! As has been noted, this may change with age. As one person has said, these are very different types of climbing, each with their own attractions. I guess that's why I like them both but I can see why some people would prefer one over the other. What's interesting is that the factors are the same for everyone, it's just that what appeals to some will repel others.

In reply to Jim Fraser:



Really... my sleeping bag was one problem... it was so cheap and nasty [it never occurred to me to buy a better one, plus I was skint as usual] I had to get up every 2 hours and run around outside the tent to warm up a bit. And the weather was hopeless [couldn't climb], I was jammed in the world's smallest tent with several others, and I was injured, didn't get treatment... Sounds like a fun trip eh?!

Edit, I should have had a supply of Co-op Xmas puddings (like you), plus a bottle of rum.

In reply to Misha:

I prefer winter, funnily enough. The challenge of predicting what will be in and when, the amazing lines on huge cliffs and the ability to climb on something that doesn't even exist some of the time, plus you can get an amazing whole body pump more easily than in rock climbing.

In reply to Jim Fraser:


Makes sense. Plus you could probably ab off a buried Christmas Pudding in an emergency.

In reply to planetmarshall:


You're raisin the stakes here. Suet yourself.

In reply to Misha:

Winter for sure, there's something intoxicating about its transience - especially ice routes which you just couldn't climb in any other conditions.

...plus the gear is sexy

In reply to Misha:

Winter climbing intensifies the things I like most about rock climbing.

In reply to JonmapDL:
A great way of putting it!

In reply to Misha:

Definitely Winter climbing - getting mountain routes in during the summer is much more conditions dependent (in Scotland anyway) in my experience - waiting for a dry day, or longer if the crag is prone to seepage in summer makes it much less productive for me. Then I suppose that if I was more keen to climb easy stuff in the rain then I might get more done......

Whereas in winter I find it rare that I head out and can't get anything climbed. Wild weather, snow etc is part of the game so doesn't tend to stop play in the same way that rain and wind does in summer.

Also, I always find winter climbing much more intense than summer, though most days I vow it'll be my last route, by the time I've driven home I'm normally planning what's next......

Cheers,

Stuart

In reply to StuDoig:

Agree with summer rock being more conditions dependent than winter, at least in NE Scotland (excluding Pass of B). Especially with places like the Aberdeen sea cliffs and the Dubh Loch...I don't know why people bother with these places in summer, not worth the drive at all.

Some Aberdeen locals will violently disagree with me!

In reply to CacCarnBeag:

Aye because the Dubh Loch is always in such reliable nick over the winter!

OK the Aberdeen sea cliffs are perhaps a matter of taste but come on, there were plenty times you could have got stuff done at the Dubh Loch last summer.

In reply to StuDoig:


An interesting theory but I'm impressed if you got out much last season?

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Not as much last season, only 6 or 7 decent routes done, but last winter was a real anomaly for conditions up here i.e. warm, but vast amounts of snow high up. Taking an average over the years rather than looking at one bad year and winter is definitely much more productive for me, and much more reliable for getting a route in on a given weekend.

Dubh loch was actually in decent condition for a lot of last winter - at least the harder lines on it (not that I climbed any of them) - much more activity there than lochnagar or the other NE "standard" venues.

Anyway, heres hoping this year is a bit more productive!

Cheers!

Stu

In reply to Misha:

I definitely remember and talk about winter routes more than summer ones and I do get excited about the winter. That said I've fond memories of warm rock and swimming in the sea down pembs..... I try to climb (trad) all year but obviously I get more done in the summer months so winter gives me something else to do. That said two years ago my climbing partner and I climbed a nice ice fall in the morning then drove to wye and did a couple of trad routes on fly wall ..... I guess if I had to do just one of them for the rest of my life .......hmmmm

In reply to StuDoig:


Agreed! Last winter was probably the most frustrating one I can remember.

In reply to Misha:

I tried really hard to get into winter climbing once I'd got the basics of rock climbing sussed but.......

If the weather was nice, everything was disintegrating around me in the sun
If it was cold enough for the snow and ice to stay put it usually meant thick fog and I like views to accompany my climbing
If there were half reasonable conditions and half reasonable weather at the same time there were queues for everything and/or the routes I was going for had already had seven bells knocked out of them

Once I had discovered budget airlines and the Costa Blanca there was no way I was going to spend all my disposable income driving to Scotland for winter weekends any more

In reply to Misha:

My feelings about this are the direct opposite of JonnyW's. In summer I prefer summer rock climbing; in winter I prefer winter climbing. That's because I'd rather be engaging in what's available at the time than longing for what isn't. Summer rock gives the opportunity to push and hone one's personal abilities, whereas winter snow/ice is more about assessing and dealing with objective conditions and hazards. I think I've come closer to killing myself in winter than in summer.