UKC

Does anybody know the expected release date of the new guide?

Ta

In reply to evanofthefell:

Not sure if you are referring to a local/private publication but as far as the CC definitive is concerned there are currently no plans to get a new edition out in the short to medium term as the focus is on other projects (the West Penwith definitive is the next major publication planned).

In reply to evanofthefell:

You'll probably get something from the proverbial horse's mouth before long, but when I asked about the same question about six months ago the answer was that they were hoping to have a draft manuscript for late 2016 and to see how it fits into the CC guidebook release schedule after that. So things are happening (epic amounts of work, specifically) but don't start camping outside your local climbing shop just yet.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=590913&v=1

In reply to evanofthefell:

Hehe ... the horse's mouth indeed!

There's not all that much to add to Misha's comments tbh. We're not a huge team but we're still busily plugging away. As Ramblin dave correctly says, the amount of work involved is epic. However, we've been very fortunate to get some additional help (and a different perspective) from members of guidebook teams from outside of Wales.

Some areas are totally done - eg. Rhobell, Ceredigion; some areas are virtually finished - eg. Berwynion, Carmarthenshire, Radnorshire and the bouldering; some areas are very much a work-in-progress - e.g. Rhinogydd; some areas are yet to be started - e.g. Cadair Idris, Aran, Arenig.

As far as I understand things - and I may be totally wrong - all future CC Welsh projects seem to have been firmly shunted into the Pending drawer as apparently they are all considered to not be ''commercially viable'' . This relates to, for example, the new Carneddau guide, the Moelwynion/ Cwm Lledr guide as well as the replacement for Meirionnydd. This is not exactly a 'motivational' situation for any of these volunteer guidebook teams. A full list of what's considered to be more important (or deemed to be more commercial/ required) is here: http://www.climbers-club.co.uk/shop/in-preparation/

At one time the CC published guides as a service to climbers and so long as sales covered costs, then all appeared to be fine. (Of course, this didn't always happen in practice and I suspect that cross-subsidies then occurred to a greater or lesser extent.) This no longer appears to be the case. Of course, people flocking to buy Rockfaxes and other selective area guides doesn't help the CC's situation either.

I may of course have completely mis-understood or mis-read the situation and if so, I'd like nothing more than to be corrected by a member of the CC's Publications Sub-committee.

So, as Ramblin Dave says, unfortunately there's no need to queue outside a climbing shop just yet.

HTH

Dave

In reply to Misha:
(the West Penwith definitive is the next major publication planned).

So add another 12 years onto the wait for the new Swanage guide then. Work started on this in 2002 and it has been "about to be published" since 2009. The whole of the Boulder Ruckle will have been washed away before the guide lands in shops

In reply to The Ivanator:

Net necessarily. West Cornwall guides are in the latter stages of development now fwiw.

In reply to The Ivanator:

… Believe it or not, Swanage is now at the printers and will be available mid Jan….

In reply to Dave Williams:
I hate the "not commercially viable" excuse. In my experience it seems to boil down to "Nobody buys the current guide, so why update?" without considering WHY nobody buys the curent guide.

The SMC southern highlands guide is an excellent example of this kind of thinking.

In reply to Richard Wheeldon:


yeah but which year?

In reply to davidbeynon:

Nobody buys the current guide because they buy the Rockfax instead. So how do you fix that?

In reply to The Pylon King:

They had years to update the guide before the rockfax came along.

In reply to davidbeynon:

Is this the Rockfax that covers about 7 climbs in Mid-Wales? Hardly the same thing is it?

In reply to The Pylon King:

If you blame everyone else you may as well blame the printers as well.

In reply to davidbeynon:


The term 'commercially viable' is often mis-used or misinterpreted when it comes to volunteer-produced climbing guidebooks. I doubt a true volunteer-produced guidebook has ever been made that cost more to publish than it returned in sales. There could be one or two but this would be down to unforgivable mistakes in the publishing process, and there would be a large stock of the unsold books lurking somewhere (or pulped) - something which doesn't tend to be the case for most guidebooks.

There are certainly guidebooks which have sold incredibly slowly, and may take a long time to reach the break-even point, but they should all get there in the end.

However at a certain time a guidebook might be an unwise commercial undertaking for a club. Tying up cash in a large stock and waiting years to reach break even might make it something that is difficult to consider if a club is strapped for cash. This could make a book 'commercially unviable' at that point in time, although I reckon that virtually any book could be published for < £5,000 so you would have to be pretty cash strapped for this to be the case.

Alan

NB. For more commercial guidebooks, where there are paid authors and other costs associated with the publication, the sums can be very different.

In reply to Offwidth:


Its not blame its a fact.

Climbers nowadays are much more likely to buy one select that covers 6 definitive guides, it not rocket science.

but personally i do think "not commercially viable" has to and can be overcome as definitive guides must not be allowed to die out.

In reply to davidbeynon:

The guidebook hasn't needed updating until recently, lots of new route information has been available online for some time now.

In reply to ianstevens:

I didn't bring the rockfax up. I for one can't wait for the new mid wales guide.

My point was that the "no demand for guidebook for area x" issue becomes a self fulfilling prophecy after a while, and pointed at one of the SMC guides as an example.

In reply to davidbeynon:



Yes i agree with that.

In reply to davidbeynon:
Then why does your above post say: "They had years to update the guide before the rockfax came along."?

I'd say that counts as discussing the Rockfax, which I think has lead some people unfamiliar with the area to view mid-Wales as being relatively crag-free, which of course it isn't.

Anyway...I completely agree with your second point - half the reason I drive past all of the Merioynedd crags to go further north (I live in Aberystwyth) is simply because I lack the skills to properly interpret the old-style photo free guide, especially as someone who has only been climbing outside during the reign of pretty photo based guides. A new guide book could well entice me to climb at my more local crags.

In reply to ianstevens:

Really?

I'm not being funny but i presume the other half of the reason is simply not trying?

You'd be surprised at how easy it is to find crags and routes simply by reading descriptions and maps (and i am a massive fan of photo diagrams).

In reply to The Pylon King:

Half is probably over-weighting it! Nearer 20% is probably nearer the mark.

It's not just interpreting the guide (although as you say, if I bothered I'd undoubtedly be fine) but the pictures often provide the psyche to want to go somewhere. Lets say you can look at a book with lots of good picture which sell the routes, or one with black and white drawings - which one will get you more excited to go somewhere?

The other 80% is that the crags are often conditions dependant, involve long walk ins of just don't feature on my to-do list.

Anyhow, I think we're making the same argument - a nice new guide would be much appreciated.

In reply to ianstevens:

Yes we are making the same argument.

I completely agree with you that inspiring colour pics (that shows you what the crag is exactly like) will definitely make you more likely to go to the crag, in fact the old black and white photodiagrams can sometimes make the crag look a lot worse than it actually is.

A new Mid Wales book is definitely needed.

In reply to ianstevens:


I grew up just a bit east of the pretty much the centre of Wales and we used to drive through to Barmouth most years as a kid - Knighton, Newtown, Dolgellau etc. I did my first proper hill walking in the Rhinogs, and besides a Crocker article about the Rhinog grit many years ago, until a couple of years ago I was completely unaware of what climbing possibilities there were roughly north of the Brecon Beacons, south of Tremadog, East of Cader and West of the Welsh end of Llanymynech! So I'm really excited to see this guide - it should open up loads of possible places to visit in day or overnight trips from my parents' place in the very west of the West Midlands.

In reply to Dave Williams:
Suggest you pick this up with the PSC but yes we have to make decisions on what to spend money on.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
That's it. It's also a question of priorities. Personally I'd rather see a Cornish definitive than a Mid-Wales one. The latter will be of interest to locals but that's not many people. I'm sure there are a few non-local aficionados of mid-Wales crags but again that's not many people. Whereas a lot of people go to Cornwall.

In reply to davidbeynon:

Sorry I disagree, I just can't see a mid Wales guide book selling much. There may be some decent crags there which most people don't know about but there's nothing that a lot of people would ever want to do. It just isn't a nationally significant climbing area like North Wales and Pembroke. Put it this way, Llanberis which was published five years ago with a print run of somewhere between 3,000 and 5,000 still hasn't sold out and that's one of the prime trad climbing areas in the country. What hope is there for mid-Wales? It could come out on the CC app I suppose. That would avoid the printing costs (but not the other costs involved).

In reply to Misha:

To be fair though, the last Llanberis guide was published only, what, 5 years since the last one?

I'd buy a new Meirionydd guide like a shot, and I live in Sheffield and have only climbed at 2 crags in mid-Wales (and one of those was Barmouth slabs).

In reply to Misha:


God help us.

In reply to Misha:

As far as the CC app goes, how are is being marketed? Is publicity for it visible in climbing shops?

In reply to The Pylon King:

Really? You say all that (which I agree with) yet how was it helpful to that cause to joke, when a distributer, who is as well informed on UK guides as anyone, tells us a book is at the printers, its going to be years still.

I actually agree with Alan that such a book with all the volunteer work should always be fine financially unless someone has really messed up (too big a print run or too high base costs through expenses etc). Given mid-wales has little competition and no recent edition, that should be more true than usual. If those of us who think definitive guides are important enough to give up large chunks of our lives for, we need to be less involved in blame and more involved with just getting on with it

In reply to Offwidth:

Exactly how was it unhelpful to 'that cause'? So it was obviously a joke! (did you not see the wink?) Jesus christ man, have you or 'the distrbutor' no sense of humour at all?


Yes, i do get on with it, quite considerably. Fact is not the same as blame.

Can you get off my back please?

In reply to The Pylon King:

Rude poster complains people are getting at him, whatever next. Heat and kitchens comes to mind.

In reply to John2:


In the same way as my local independent bookshop has a large advertisement for the Kindle.

In reply to evanofthefell:

I'd have thought that Meirionydd would be viable, given that there is no competition from other guides.

More concerning would be something like Carneddau and Crafnant, where the only routes anyone ever does are in both the GU selective and the Rockfax selective. With most of the crags being a fair walk-in and requiring good weather, I can't see that being best-seller.

Is the future for the definitives to such areas an open wiki with downloadable pdfs and apps? Would the climbing community be interested in developing open-source software to make that work?

In reply to Coel Hellier:
Its really up to climbers. Do they want to let loose a completely 'free market' where only the best areas get covered (several times) or do they want to intervene to preferentially support definitive production by buying guides they dont strictly need (as they have the older version or won't climb that many routes not in the selective to make it worthwhile on a strict cost benefit). If enough climbers support definitives (which they seem to at the moment) the competition just cuts profit, not viability, in whatever form. Its certainly not possible to stop competition and on the other side of the coin the competition has made the definitive producers up their game and respect their customer base more and in a few cases has produced guides to areas that may not have had one for a longish while otherwise.

I always found it odd that some climbers were lavish on some aspects of their lives, like travel costs and booze, but tight as a tight thing on guidebooks, often to the extent of wasting valuable time and effort on poor or out-of-date information.

In reply to Offwidth:


Or, do we re-think whether hard-copy guides printed in batches of ~3000 is the way things should be done nowadays?

Would it be worse if the volunteer effort currently put into such guides were diverted to high-quality and attractive online guides? The browsing of guides would then be done mainly on tablets, and the use of such guides would be by printing out pdfs or by phone apps.

One advantage of this is that there would not be ~15-yr gaps between guides; an open wiki could be updated whenever anyone chose. There would not be the syndrome (see above) of some areas being totally done while others not having been started, and it possibly being several years before the "done" areas make it into print.

In reply to Coel Hellier:


To me though that's one of the points of the definitive - to 'sell' the routes/areas people don't normally do or know about. This is often more easily done in prose than photo.

Disclaimer - I am pretty Jurassic about guidebooks.

In reply to The Pylon King:
The app exists. It just needs volunteers to upload routes into it. If you would like to help, contact Pete Sterling.

In reply to John2:
It needs more advertising and content. Shops wouldn't advertise IT I think as nothing in it for them.

In reply to Misha:


Thats ok thanks.

In reply to Offwidth:

No not 'people', you!

I can handle rudeness it's stalkers that i cant handle!

In reply to Coel Hellier:



So i would have to buy a tablet or smartphone to simply read a guidebook?

Is that progress?

Maybe is for the tablet/smartphone companies.

In reply to Offwidth:


Spot on!

In reply to Misha:

So how are people supposed to know that it exists?

This is, in my opinion, one of a number of problems with smartphone-based guidebooks. If you walk into a climbing shop you can see a large range of printed guidebooks, and compare the ones with similar coverage at your leisure.

In reply to The Pylon King:


Given that 7" android tablets start from about £30 nowadays, is this a problem?

In reply to The Pylon King:


Or a computer, to read the pdf. And a printer (or a mate with a printer) if to print it off. Since you're posting on here I'm assuming that you've already got access to some sort of computer...

I'd rather have a lovingly crafted guidebook to sit and flick through than a stack of printouts, but I'd rather have a stack of printouts than a vague assertion that a guidebook will be coming out "probably some time in late 2017, depending on other projects..."

In reply to The Pylon King:

OK, if you feel I'm stalking I apologise as I didn't have that intent (or practice). I do read a lot of your posts as they are on subjects that interest me (I certainly don't go on your profile and read all your posts). Generally your posts either impress me (excellent volunteering and sterling support of obscurities) or make me laugh or sometimes both. You are however very gruff at times (as am I, so no issue as such with that) so it seemed a bit rich that you were moaning when I played on that theme given that we are on a public site. Jokes on publication dates can hurt feelings (but maybe they need to sometimes).

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Books are still easier for most to read outdoors than tablets or phones and will remain so until they get cheap kindle type tech in colour (five years to a decade maybe?). They also don't run out of battery power at a critical time or break when you drop them on a rock. Printed-out pdfs are both pretty expensive and very limited in life...books are so cheap I'd always buy one unless photocopies are all I could get (except big multi-pitch where I take a picture on my camera or better still take a photocopy of the page in my pocket).

In reply to Offwidth:
Ok yes, i accept that i can often be a bit of a tw*t and i apologise for that, but i think we are (regarding guidebooks) singing from the same hymn book.

and i apologise to the (very soon to materialise) Swanage guidebook and all involved in it.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

I didn't realise they were that cheap but i still think it is a backward step but then i like books, they just work.
I don't think we need to re-invent the wheel.

In reply to Misha:


It's not as if we haven't tried.

You may or may not know that communication between guidebook authors and the Climbers' Club Publications Sub-Committee is facilitated via a go-between. Permission was requested to attend a PSC meeting so that we could directly pass on concerns, present a proposal and hopefully receive some objective feedback.

Permission to attend the meeting was declined. (BTW, both authors are CC members.)

Please note that none of this is a complaint but merely a statement of fact.

In reply to Misha:

No one's arguing that there shouldn't be priorities when finances are limited.

On what objective basis are you able to say such a thing?

Again, where's your facts to back up such sweeping assertions? Or is this just an expression of your personal prejudice?

However, prejudice based on direct personal experience can be understood - and possibly accepted. So how much climbing have you actually done in Mid Wales?

In reply to Dave Williams:




As I understand things, as an author, I am welcome to attend PSC meetings.

In reply to Misha:
I'm impressed with the ease with which you simply dismiss all the climbing on Cadair Idris, the Arans and Arenig Fawr to name but three ... let alone the Rhinogydd which has arguably the best outcrop climbing in the whole of the UK (based on personal experience of 40+ years of climbing extensively both within and outside the areas of national significance.)

Why is this? Has the last guidebook - Meirionnydd 2002 - contributed detrimentally to its significance? The following was posted on this forum last year. It refers to Meirionnydd:
"The current guidebook, although covering a wonderful variety of rock with plenty of evocative description, is fairly awful and archaic as far as a functional guide goes. It took me the better part of a year and countless toilet revisions, page stickers and pencil cross-referencing to make sense of it. The lack of linkage between adjacent maps / sub-maps and crag pages is particularly problematic, as is the distance between crag pages and topos / diagrams, and the generally outdated maps and approach details."
Without a modern, up-to-date guidebook Mid Wales will never get the chance and the core-periphery model will be self-fullfilling. To put it simply, perhaps people go climbing to Pembroke, North Wales or wherever simply because they have the access to up-to-date information that enables such visits. Perhaps people don't go to Mid Wales because there is no such information, and what *is* available is disfunctional, and always has been? To be honest, Meirionnydd is an extremely difficult guide to use and was published with a number of significant errors, further limiting its usability.

Have you considered that Llanberis may not have sold out due to competition from selective guides. If your figures are correct, was such a print run objectively sensible with due regard to such competition?

If you have access to such information, please look into the size of the 2002 print run for Meirionnydd and see if you think *that* was sensible.

At least a recent project such as the new CC Pembroke Range West guide has a sensible print run. It's main market will only be those climbers who've attended the annual briefings - and how many is that? I would suggest that a new Mid Wales guide would sell far far more than the Range West guide ever will.

Will Range West break even, let alone turn a profit?

Pembroke Range West, a vanity project if ever there was one, but undoubtedly justified of course because Pembroke is of ''national significance''.

A sense of equity based on objectivity seems to be sadly absent here.

In reply to Mark Kemball:


That was my understanding too, but in practice - for us at least - it did not turn out to be so.

In reply to John2:
Good question and we need to publicise it more through magazine articles etc.

The Rockfax one will be publicised here I should think. That's all you need, really.

In reply to Dave Williams:
If there's a CC related point you'd like to discuss, please PM me as it isn't appropriate for me to go into a detailed discussion on a public forum (I'm on the main committee).

As for mid Wales climbing, yes it's self perpetuating as people don't know what's there but even so I have never heard of a decent crag there which is in decent condition reasonably often. Craig Cywarch is meant to have some decent routes but it's wet and vegetated. Someone I know did a classic VS there recently and it was very overgrown. Perhaps some routes are best left to obscurity.

I'm sure there are some good routes in decent nick but why would I bother with them if I can do some classic routes in North Wales? I suspect a lot of people would take that view.

Having said that, if you know any crags there with several two-three star quality routes in the E1-5 range, long single pitch or multi pitch, which aren't vegetated, do let me know!

In reply to Misha:

OK, fair enough and I'll do that if I ever feel the need to. Thanks.
At the moment I don't and I was only responding to the points you'd made earlier in this thread as I felt they needed responding to in a respectful and objective manner. A pity that you feel you can't respond because of your status within the CC. I too will reciprocate and invite you to please PM me if there's a CC related point in anything I've posted above that you'd like to discuss.


Unfortunately all you've done here is prove my point about your lack of objectivity and tendency to make sweeping generalisations.
Shame you missed your chance; Craig Cywarch was bone dry for nearly 4 months this year; not a single little wet bit of moss in sight....

Suggest you look in the new North Wales Rockfax - the only current source of up-to-date, well-presented, accurate information about climbing in Mid Wales. Sadly, there is no equivalent offering from the CC, despite 12 years having passed since the last guide was published,

In reply to Dave Williams:

Hi Dave,

Why do you need the CC to publish this guide for you? Why don't you do it yourself or maybe get in touch with the guys at Pseda Press?

The only route I've done in Mid-Wales is Doom, which was bone dry and brilliant when I did it. I'd love to do more down there but like many others I'm lazy and struggle to get inspired to make the drive from Sheffield (or even Llanberis) by the current guide.

I'd have thought with a crowd-funding page and some advertising you might be able to scrape together the £5k you need to get the guide to the printers.

I wouldn't bother with a definitive publications however. Just a definitive selective that covers every route worth climbing in the area. I don't see the point in recording poor routes. They're rarely worth climbing and I do not understand people's obsession with the definitive record or climbing every piece of rock going.

Tom Ripley

In reply to Misha:

Maybe selling The Count House could pay for all of the future books?

In reply to evanofthefell:

Getting back to the OP. I'm the other author working on the new Mid Wales guide and, as Dave Williams has said, progess ranges from being very far advanced in some areas to less so in other areas.

The overall plan has been complicated by the decision to include the Elenydd Area (basically Central Wales) ie: everything south of Aberdovey but north of Cardigan and going as far East as Llanidloes and Llandrindod Wells. This is obviously a completely new area which has never featured in any guidebook.

So, with Central Wales (Elenydd) in addition to (most of) the existing crags of Meirionnydd we have a geographical area roughly equivalent to 50% of Wales and it's a massive project.

The good news is that our work on Elenydd/Central Wales will be complete by next Easter, if not before; it's 95% written. Our plan is then to publish Elenydd/Central Wales as stand alone guidebook as soon as possible and hopefully at some stage in 2015. Although whether this is published by the Climbers Club, or published privately, or via an app, or via the web etc. is yet to be determined.

For info Elenydd comprises of:
The Ceredigion Coast (c.60 miles from Borth to Gwbert)
Plynlimon Area
Elan Valley Area
Outlying crags eg: Llynn Brianne
There are curently in excess of 750 routes and 85% of these are within a 30 mile radius of Aberystwyth.
It's mainly trad but there's some Sport, plenty of Bouldering and sea-cliff adventures a-plenty.

Moving on from this our priority is then likely to be the Rhinogydd where there has already been lots and lots of guidebook work done, especially during 2014. The number of new crags discovered and new routes climbed since the 2002 guide is simply staggering. There is more than enough here now for a single guidebook on its own and "Welsh Grit" has a lovely ring to it. I certainly wouldn't argue with anyone who describes this area as having "some of the best outcrop climbing in the whole of the UK". Unfortunately, after Elenydd, I don't think we can put a timescale on anything else at the moment so definetely no need to start camping outside your local climbing shop just yet.

A couple of final things. I agree completely with all comments regarding the 2002 Meirionnydd guide. Anybody who has bought and used this guidebook will understand too. However, long may the Climbers Club be in a position to continue with the publication of definitive guides, it's just a shame that the market has changed and climbers no longer buy them in such large quantities.

In reply to Doug Kerr:

Sounds like a real labour of love ! great to explore some of the other areas.

In reply to Doug Kerr:


To add a little, hopefully tantalising detail, a future, stand-alone Rhinogydd area guide will include a minimum of 1200 routes on well over 100 crags. These will cover the full grade range and whilst most of them are trad single pitch outcrop climbs, there are also a significant number of multi-pitch climbs as well as some mountaineering routes. Yes, that's right - multi-pitch and mountaineering routes on gritstone. The guide will literally have 'something for everyone' - including some excellent sport climbing.

Everyone I've met who's climbed on Rhinogydd grit say that they prefer it to Peak or Yorkshire grit. It's certainly very different, much rougher and perhaps more varied too, giving a greater range of climbing styles. In contrast to Meirionnydd 2002, the climbing areas will simply be sub-divided into Northern Rhinogydd Crags and Southern Rhinogydd Crags, with detailed approach notes, approach maps and full use of GPS co-ordinates where required. It also goes without saying that the guide will be rammed with action photos, every single one guaranteed to inspire.

I have spent virtually all of 2014 climbing and checking routes in the Rhinogydd and its been pure pleasure, with excellent climbing on excellent crags. I have engaged with a number of local farmers and other landowners and have met nothing but friendliness, kindness, understanding and a huge curiosity regarding the climbing. Some farmers have bent over backwards to be helpful, allowing access to crags over private, non open access land and readily agreeing to allow unhindered parking on their land.

While many climbs and cliffs will give climbers something of a 'wilderness' experience, there are also a significant number of crags with sub-15 minute approaches. For example there are two such Rhinog grit crags within 20 minutes drive from Tremadog. For those who's only experience of Rhinogydd climbing has perhaps been a visit to Craig y Merched's Rhino's Buttress, please be prepared for a massive eye-opener, a revelatory experience, as there is much much more to Rhinogydd climbing than Rhino's Buttress.

Finally, unlike the old one, the new guide will have detailed instructions as to how to actually *get* to Craig y Merched .....

Now that can't be bad, can it?

HTH

Dave

In reply to Dave Williams:


???????????????

In reply to Dave Williams:

The Rhinog grit is amazing and a good amount is super clean. Its a massively underrated area, unfortunately like you say, pretty hard to access (being able to read an os map and relate that to obscure guidebook descriptions 100% necessary for a good chunk of the crags) . A new guide would be fantastic, I just regret only scratching the surface before I moved away in the summer.

In reply to The Pylon King:


Poor King. Now if he would just pause and think I'm sure it'll come back to him. After all, I know that he's driven right underneath it many times now.

I'll just give the merest of hints - it's by the seaside, near to an endless supply of Kiss Me Quick hats, ice cream and fish and chips ....

It might not be Rhinog Grit, but it's geographically in the Rhinogydd and it's definitely going in the guide!

In reply to Alex Riley:

Well, at least you left your mark with Falcon Crack. (BTW, it's been recently repeated, grade confirmed and considered to be worth a star.)

In reply to Dave Williams:

Oh yeah and theres me just having worked on the mag article about it! :/

In reply to The Pylon King:

Haha )

youtube.com/watch?v=KJ5of9_LH40&

A suitable tune for your next climbing vid project perhaps? No fear of bleeding ears with this one ....

In reply to Dave Williams:

Haha yeh, Terry seemed to like it. Perfect example of how clean the rock is, I climbed it onsight with no vegetation/dampness/looseness/lichen to speak of.

A bit more traffic would help, I noticed the difference between Barmouth quarry this year and last (since the rockfax book). Just that bit cleaner (litter and rock), its just a shame they only covered such a limited amount of the routes there.

In reply to Alex Riley:


It's a good thing it wasn't sullied further.

In reply to The Pylon King:




I'm sure Ian could work it out if he wanted to.. but that would be diverting his attention away from all that bouldering..