UKC

following on from the latest thread on this topic the most up to date information can be found at www.ferrytonorway.com which is a dedicated website to those campaigning for the reinstatement of the service. To show your support for this proposed service and all the benefits it can bring to those of us who want to climb, ski and paddle etc using our own vehicles please visit the site and log your interest.

In reply to skipper64:

Good idea. Interest registered.

Danny

In reply to DannyC:

Also, good to hear that a Scottish Parliament debate's on this has been secured.

In reply to skipper64:

Nice one, thanks for the link.
Ive registered. Fingers crossed

In reply to skipper64:

Thanks for posting. I was very disappointed when the ferry was cancelled but did manage to get it once before.

On my honeymoon to Tromso, I remember confusing a DFDS official in Amsterdam because we said we were on our way to Tromso. He asked what we were doing in Amsterdam then and my wife said 'You cancelled the Norway boat'. We got the Newcastle boat to Amsterdam, train to Kiel, and boat to Oslo then a train to Bodo, followed by boat to Tromso. It was good fun actually but not as a regular trip.

Mehmet

In reply to skipper64:
I would be over there every other year if the boat was running.

Do you know if the old boat was stopped because it was unprofitable, or if it was just that DFDS had a more lucrative route? I suspect the latter but don't really know.

In reply to skipper64:

It would be great if this could be restarted - we'd be keen to use it to get across to Sweden for family trips.

The cheap flights killed it off, I think, and we're certainly 'guilty' of having used those a lot. Now the cheap flights from Scotland to Sweden are drying up, too - so we'd be willing to pay a bit more for a ferry trip again.

Even just Newcastle to either Bergen or Stavanger would be fine - we'd make use of the trip, with a stopoff or two. Not much good for a long weekend, but fine in the summer for a fortnight. It would be good to be able to take the car across, too.

In reply to skog:

As I read elsewhere "Most european ferry companies are bracing themselves heavilly for a backlash in terms of falling traffic due to large fare rises imposed as a consequence of the Sulphur Emission Control Area (SECA) limitations taking effect on the 1st January 2015. This alone will mean some current routes being scrapped as they will no longer be financially viable. It will be a brave company to start a new route in these conditions for a good while."

In reply to Cuthbert:

Ah. Not great news.

Am I right in thinking that there are currently -no- vehicle ferries from the UK to Scandinavia?

It seems remarkable, but I suppose the focus has been on flights.

Unfortunately flights win on both cost and time.

A group of us went over (Newcastle/Bergan) scuba diving. The lads in the van took an extra 3 days travelling compared to those of us who flew, and paid around 3X what we did for flights - worked well though as we contributed towards the cost of their tickets and got them to take all our heavy gear over for us.

In reply to davidbeynon:

There was a subsidy, not sure who from us or Norway. This more or less covered the running costs. I think it lasted five years once it ran out the ferries stopped. I used it once for a sea kayaking trip, we trollied the boats on at Newcastle, got off at Bergan and paddled down through the fjords for seven days to Stravanger, great trip.

In reply to skog:

I think the key on this is going to be smart thinking and not expect an all signing and dancing development. Should vessels become spare or the assets can be used more there is no reason that an Aberdeen to Stavanger route can't be started.

In reply to OwenM:

I see. I didn't know about the subsidy, but that makes sense.

Anyone know if there potential for legal trouble if a new subsidised route starts? Are DFDS going to throw their toys out of the pram and go to court over it?

In reply to davidbeynon:

I like the idea of a ferry to Norway, but I don't really want the government to spend money on it. if it isn't self sustaining financially that's a shame, but it does show that not much of the voting population is interested.

In reply to Bob_the_Builder:

The old boat was always packed, so I think they could have charged a bit more. Don't know about enough the economics of it really.

Of course all the scottish isand ferries are subsidised. Maybe one of the calmac boats could do a sneaky detour...

In reply to davidbeynon:

Ferries to the islands is a bit different. There are enough financially viable routes to Norway, and nobody is depending on the ferries for connection with the world in the same way as the islands are.

Also I assume the operating cost of an island ferry is much lower than that of a ferry crossing the North sea.

It is a shame though. I'd love to take the ferry across to ski and climb.

In reply to Bob_the_Builder:
It really worked well if you had 4 people and a car full of gear. Far less hassle than trying to get everyone below 20 kilos and wearing 5 layers on the plane.

[edit] thinking about pricing, if you want the holidaymaker market then putting a return for a car a bit below the cost of a weeks norwegian car hire is probably about right. The car hire is consistently the most expensive bit of my trips over.

In reply to davidbeynon:

Looks like you should start a business then!

I would take a ferry to Norway if one existed for sure. As much for the experience as anything else.

In reply to Bob_the_Builder:

OK. You lend me the money and I will buy a boat!

The experience is a little bit rubbish to be honest - it's a long time to be on a small boat. Waking up at 3am as half the car deck emptied into Haugesund was one of the highlights. You can move a lot of stuff though.

In reply to davidbeynon:

Nah mate, I've been screwed over by the baby boomers and have no money. =D

I could probably fashion you an oar though, if that helps.


I think you're going to have to sell it a bit better than that if you want to turn a profit.

In reply to Bob_the_Builder:


That was the /old/ boat.

The new one won't have that problem, as the boat only carries cargo and the passengers are towed along behind on body boards. If they let go then the small print says we get to keep their stuff.

Anyway, I was lying - the REAL highlight was the terrifying childrens entertainer and his paper elephant...

In reply to Cuthbert:


If a UK/Norway ferry is established it will probably be between Newcastle and Bergen to cater for tourists other than Scottish climbers. Tourists from southern Scotland and the north of England cities won't want to drive all the way to Aberdeen. Newcastle/Bergen is financially a much more viable route.

In reply to skipper64:

As a resident of Stavanger I'd agree with that - apart from access to climbing there is no reason for a ferry to Aberdeen -

In reply to wbo:

Apart from it might make it cheaper as it's a much shorter route and driving to Aberdeen from Newcastle is a lot cheaper than sailing up the coast. That said, that has to be balanced with the lack of population and perceived distance.

In reply to Cuthbert:

The old boat used to do two stops in Norway, slowed things down a bit.

What about somewhere on the south coast instead of Bergen? Not as convenient for the fjords, but a shorter crossing and the roads north are good.

One of the cargo ferries goes to Brevik, which looks quite well connected.

In reply to davidbeynon:

I think one of the biggest issues is the very southernised mentality Brits have which is mainly due to the centralised and London centric approach.

Therefore, this will always struggle to attract traffic meaning the shortest route with lowest costs most likely to be attractive, within reason.

Also, an RET type of subsidy maybe required.

A smaller boat such as the Hrossey or Hjaltland might work but the sulphur regs are going to cause issues.

Anywhere in Norway is fine for me. No-one had heard of "Torp" until Ryanair came along.

In reply to Cuthbert:

I'm not sure the southern mentality is as important as following the money.

For a tourist boat then it has to be fairly painless to drive to the port. If you assume people are willing to drive 4 hours then Newcastle gives a catchment area running down to Birmingham and up to Aberdeen. People willing to drive another half hour would be happy to go to Newcastle from Bristol.

So that's most of the population of Scotland, plus considerably more people from south of the border.

Run the boat from Aberdeen and your potential customer base is Scotland and NE England down to Newcastle. I just can't see it being as lucrative, even though you would have a shorter crossing.

In reply to davidbeynon:

Fair enough but the issue you have to deal with, with your plan, is that the route is clearly not working and been withdrawn. It didn't work.

In reply to Cuthbert:

Maybe it's not workable. I just think it would be less workable if you restrict yourself to the population of Scotland. 10 million potential customers will always be better than 5 million.

In reply to davidbeynon:

Neither seems to work but only one of those has been tried. I think the most likely way to get this going is re-scheduling of existing vessels which are suitable and located so that they can continue with their current duties albeit on a different schedule.

In reply to Cuthbert:

I think there used to be a route via Shetland as well...

In reply to Cuthbert:

Are you suggesting that it could maybe work as a supplement to what a vessel is already doing, rather than as a dedicated ferry service?

That's an interesting idea, if I have you right on it. It could slash the cost base, meaning far fewer customers would be required for it to be viable.

In reply to skog:

Yes but I am fairly sure that most vessels and crewing structures are fully used right now. Only the Shetland vessels are suitable as they have cabins but are used already.

With budget cuts this side of the route I think it is very unlikely to start. Shame as I would like to make use of it.

In reply to Cuthbert:


Cuthbert, I don't think it's enough to say "it didn't work"

Firstly, very few people, including marine professionals, understand the true reason why DFDS dropped the Newcastle to Bergen ferry in 2008. Of course, everyone understands the reason given by DFDS for dropping the route. Now, if there was another reason why DFDS dropped the route and that reason might present DFDS in a very bad light do you think they would propagate that reason?

Secondly, It does not automatically follow that a ferry service will not work now simply because it hasn't worked before. Even if that argument was false, and it isn't, most people will realise at once that it is not ‘the route’ that works or does not work. A route of itself can neither fail nor succeed!

You may have failed to summit everest in 2008 but that does not automatically mean you will fail again in 2014!

The most important questions to be answered right now (not in the past) in respect of Norwegian Seaways Ltd (not DFDS or any other operator) are

a) Is their sufficient demand for a Britain to Norway ferry service?
b) Is their sufficient medium to long term profit for an operator in such a service?
C) Are their sufficient assets to support such a service

The answer to all of those questions is a resounding ‘Yes’

Crucially, If as you say "the route is clearly not working" why are private investors and public authorities investing in the Newcastle to Norway ferry and Norwegian Seaways Ltd?

I would encourage anyone with a genuine interest in the restoration of the Britain to Norway ferry to call in frequently at http://ferrytonorway.com - This is the only place where the latest and most accurate developements are published.

Our next meeting with Norwegian Seaways is scheduled for Jan 2015.

In reply to TrevR:

I nearly got to the top of Everest but will do next time.

There is a ferry service right now from Immingham to Brevik and you can take a car and book a cabin. It's for freight but they take passengers also if there is space.

Which vessels do you propose?

In reply to skipper64:

I could hardly see the hardship in Smyril line reinstating its Copenhagen - Scrabster - Bergen - Torshavn - Seydisfjordur service, it was an epic journey.

In reply to Ste Brom:

Wow. That sounds as though you need 2 boats going in opposite directions!

In reply to TrevR:





Is it? How do you know this? Genuinely interested. I would have thought that if there was enough demand for the service to make a profit, then someone would be doing it.

In reply to TobyA:

Hi Toby

It's not so much consumer demand that determines profit but a company's ability to control its costs.

Norwegian Seaways Ltd is in fact "doing it" and has been doing it for 3 years.

A resounding ‘Yes’ ...."How do you know this?"

A1) from the response of thousands of hopeful travellers who have supported the campaign online.

A2) from the hundreds of imp/exp and ITX businesses we have contacted either by email or by telephone on both sides of the sea.

B1) from the feasibility study undertaken by Price Waterhouse Cooper

B2) from the meetings we have attended with Norwegian Seaways Ltd

C1) there are currently two assets (ships) that have been earmarked for this service

C2) we can not comment on specific assets, suffice it to say that they are in place

A sudden thought! The information I want to provide here has highlighted a need for the evidence to be collated in one central document so rather than repeat this evidence across many forums and other social media sites I will create a Question & Answer section on our web site to set out the facts and the evidence for those facts. I'm a great fan of ‘deductive reasoning’ and I apply this wherever I can to claims, statements, stories and reports about the Britain to Norway ferry.

Unfortunately, there has been far too much ‘inductive reasoning’ which has led to misreporting on the Norwegian side about the re-launch of the service. There has also been far too much inductive reasoning and speculation from uninformed cynics and supporters from both sides of the North Sea. This has created a great deal of confusion and has led to cries of ‘Yeah, we've waited years for this and nothing's happened’.

I think now would be a good time to get all the established facts in one place and to silence the armchair critics from both sides of the sea.

Thanks for the prompt, I'll get started right away.

In reply to TrevR:
Which service , from Aberdeen or Newcastle?

In reply to TrevR:

I commend your work on this and hope it works out. Can you indicate a likely vessel size and route?

In reply to j0ntyg:

The cynics mostly refer to the Britain to Norway ferry in general and not any particular ports persay.