UKC

Tufted Crack @ Ilkley

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 1poundSOCKS 12 Nov 2014
Just been to check the line of Tufted Crack, because in the new guidebook it clearly goes straight up the corner at the start, not moving left into the wide crack. Just eyeballing it from the ground, it looks desperate, with protection too low down to be very useful.

Is the line in the new guidebook wrong? Or it correct, and people think it's not E2 because they've taken the wrong line? Or is it easier than it looks? Or something I've not though of?

I'd like to get on it when the weather clears up, and it would be nice to do the proper line.

Ilkley (Cow and Calf), Tufted Crack (E1 5c)
 BnB 12 Nov 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

In the original guide the route follows Josephine until you can cut right under the main event that is the upper crack. The new guide talks about an easy start, both of which suggest your question is well founded and that indeed you can start to the left a little, in the right hand of Josephine's cracks (with apologies to mademoiselle). Not very much like E2 though with a pronounced HS 4a/b start.
OP 1poundSOCKS 12 Nov 2014
In reply to BnB:

Thanks. I think you're saying you think the line in the new guide is wrong? Whether it's E2 or not is maybe another question.

BTW, I find the start of Josephine hard for some reason.
Wiley Coyote2 12 Nov 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

The 1998 guide shows it starting up Josephine and then stepping across right below the final crack. That's the way I've always done it. It is a little sod and very slippery in the crack. Because the crack slowly widens no matter what size your hands are you are always going to find a section where the crack is too wide for locks but too narrow for solid jams. I'd agree with 5c but not sure about E2 since the gear is so good and if you're strong enough you need never get above a runner.
OP 1poundSOCKS 12 Nov 2014
In reply to Wiley Coyote:

Thanks. That's the line in my Rockfax guide. Strange that the new Yorkshire Gritstone clearly shows it going up a different line. I suspect I'll take the easy way up, and claim the E2 tick.
 Aigen 12 Nov 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

It cannt be E2 when there is gear above your head. E1 5C is correct. If anything Hard 5C I would give it.
OP 1poundSOCKS 12 Nov 2014
In reply to Aigen:

> It cannt be E2

I'll be taking the guidebook grade for the tick, thankyou, although it's encouraging to know I don't actually have to climb E2 to get it.
Wiley Coyote2 12 Nov 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Get in sharpish. Once word gets out the queue will start in Otley
 ashtond6 13 Nov 2014
In reply to Aigen:

is London Wall E1 because you can put gear above your head the whole way?
OP 1poundSOCKS 13 Nov 2014
In reply to ashtond6:

I suspect he means, given the difficulty of the climbing, it's E1, not that any route is E1 with gear above your head.
 Bulls Crack 13 Nov 2014
In reply to ashtond6:

> is London Wall E1 because you can put gear above your head the whole way?

err no but it's a bit longer than 15'!

E1 5c seems fair
In reply to 1poundSOCKS: FWIW it was originally graded HVS 5b in the '84 guide...

 Bulls Crack 13 Nov 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

> I suspect he means, given the difficulty of the climbing, it's E1, not that any route is E1 with gear above your head.

can be. - its not just safety
 Aigen 13 Nov 2014
In reply to ashtond6:

Everyone knows the British grading system is broken.
1
OP 1poundSOCKS 13 Nov 2014
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

> FWIW it was originally graded HVS 5b in the '84 guide...

Hopefully it climbs like one.
 Michael Hood 13 Nov 2014
In reply to Aigen: Not at those grades it's not. Doesn't go wrong until about E5/6 6b.

 remus Global Crag Moderator 13 Nov 2014
In reply to Michael Hood:

Tried onsighting something of those boulder problems with a high finish recently? I dont know many E1 leaders who can consistently flash V3.
 jon_gill1 13 Nov 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Hey Mathew,its definitely E1,its quite hard but definitely not E2!!!!nice route,shame the cracks not longer though!
 Offwidth 14 Nov 2014
In reply to jon_gill1:

If its a hard E1 saying its definitely not E2 is plain ridiculous, in that its telling the consensus what to think. UKC votes range around the border averaging at top end E1 and tough E1s do not get lots of votes from inexperienced E1 leaders but will get anything from HVS to mid E1 votes from yorkshiremen who when a lad worked 26 hours a day, lived in a cardboard box int middle of road and got murdered every night by their dad. On the other hand even Stanage has E1 cracks that most will swear are E2.
 Andy Hardy 14 Nov 2014
In reply to jon_gill1:

I "made an ascent" of Tufted Crack when I was a student, as I was "testing" the gear a very youthful John Dunne wandered past and shouted up to me that it was "definitely E2" (graded HVS at the time) which made me feel slightly better. Better for about 30s that is when he announced at the top of his lungs he was "just going round to solo milky way".
OP 1poundSOCKS 14 Nov 2014
In reply to jon_gill1:

Grades debates, I do like a good grade debate!

I did Lucky Strike at Pembroke this year, that gets E2 in the definitive guide. Based on how hard I found it, I would say not. Bachelor's Left Hand, to me, feels harder, and is HVS. Confused. Should I just take the guidebook grade? I don't really know to be honest. It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, but at times I do wonder who grades them, and how they come up with the grade.

BTW, if you wanted the crack to be longer, it couldn't have been that hard for you!
OP 1poundSOCKS 14 Nov 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

> If its a hard E1 saying its definitely not E2 is plain ridiculous

It's all subjective isn't it. I wouldn't read too much into the use of definitely.
 Jon Stewart 14 Nov 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

> I did Lucky Strike at Pembroke this year, that gets E2 in the definitive guide. Based on how hard I found it, I would say not. Bachelor's Left Hand, to me, feels harder, and is HVS. Confused. Should I just take the guidebook grade?

You need the graded list of crags...

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=510620
 Offwidth 14 Nov 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Dont worry nothing gets read that seriously. I just love grade debates too and especially like to explore why people think such diiferent things, so will play devil's advocate at times to try and pull out a reasoned response. It also gives me an excuse to enthuse about grit and tasty new guides.

Given the tendancy for soft grading at Pembroke and Batcherlors LH being one of the toughest grit HVS mega-classics on a tough graded crag for a tough graded guide such experiences are inevitable. I still favour setting down markers on such top end routes to resist grade creep and keep everyone honest with new routes and updates in new guides. Equally, given my love of clefts when I have to think how to start a starred VDiff chimney with no tech grade its pretty certain the grade is wrong and I will push strongly for an uograde in such cases (albeit I also think conservative upgrades are nearly always best having by consensus needed to slightly downgrade various previous 'overshoot upgrades' of old sandbags at Birchen).

I'd urge all editors if its not broke dont fix it on classic grades. Things like Bowfell Buttress becoming HS 4b mess everything up and will inevitably end up getting downgraded some time. The Uk trad system should be able to deal with what is really a tough 4a boulder problem barely above a ledge much better than that (ie VD 4a or HVD 4b if you must). In the old days it could be hard to tell but with things like UKC votes around you know if you are a full grade out.
Post edited at 11:10
OP 1poundSOCKS 14 Nov 2014
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Graded list of crags. Fantastic, ta.

Without looking, is Hen Cloud near the top?

EDIT: I like the response from the guy basically saying, "why did you start this pointless thread?". I just tend to ignore threads that don't interest me, especially when everyone else seems to be having harmless fun.
Post edited at 11:19
OP 1poundSOCKS 14 Nov 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

That VDiff chimney on the south face if Almscliff is nails. I'm not even that bad at chimneys generally, or maybe I'm self deluded, but it's strange when you can cruise Great Western and struggle on such a low grade route. I'm sure if it wasn't so polished it'd be easy, but it's polished to hell.
 Offwidth 14 Nov 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Great thread. Read it, you wont be sorry.
 Offwidth 14 Nov 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

South Chimney was Ok once I realised which way to face, standard Almscliff VD 4a wiggle and pull (the new grade). The one I was thinking of was much harder....think it might even have perplexed the low grade chimney king, Simon Caldwell...need to see what it ended up as when I get my copy.
 BnB 14 Nov 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

Was Square Chimney at the 'cliff once vDiff? That's a hilarious and worrisome thrutch.
 Offwidth 14 Nov 2014
In reply to BnB:

Severe in the first series West Yorkshire guide. I dont have the earler crag specfic stuff.
 BnB 14 Nov 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

That makes sense. It's got Yorkshire Severe written all over it!!
 Simon Caldwell 14 Nov 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

> The one I was thinking of was much harder....think it might even have perplexed the low grade chimney king, Simon Caldwell

I assume you were chuckling when you typed that after watching me flail on Flannel Avenue.

Hardest chimney I've done recently (possibly ever) was the Devil's Chimney through-route at Stanage...
 Simon Caldwell 14 Nov 2014
In reply to BnB:

I expect Square Chimney was probably VDiff at some point in the past. But probably the sides were still rough and grippy at the time
 jennycutedge 14 Nov 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Leading tufted crack last year was a big tick for me as I'd only done a couple of easier E1s (Cameo at Wilton, Enbankment 4 at Millstone) before then. Was well chuffed to lead it clean after a failed attempt on second last year, especially as my husband still hasn't managed it and he's on-sighting up to E4! I think it's the whole size of hands issue. It's too wide for solid finger locks and too narrow for hand jams. Also a bit polished which doesn't help. Have now lead lots more E1s and think Tufted Crack is tough for the grade but because it's short lived, doesn't feel like E2. Compare it to something like Regent Street - much more sustained.
 Offwidth 14 Nov 2014
In reply to jennycutedge:

I think my (even beta flawed poor mans best I could do for) onsight success probablilty (if I ever get fit again) would would be quite a bit higher for Regents Street which is bottom middle of the Burb infinity E2 graded list. I find finger cracks a lot easier once worked as the moves flow better and save energy, which for me means onsight is tough compared to a subsequent lead. Burb Infinity famously has Nonsuch as HVS so its not soft for finger stuff.
 Bulls Crack 14 Nov 2014
In reply to jennycutedge:

You can get some bomber knuckle jams in it though!
OP 1poundSOCKS 14 Nov 2014
In reply to jennycutedge:

Thanks for the advice.

Are you talking to each other yet?
OP 1poundSOCKS 14 Nov 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

> standard Almscliff VD 4a

May well be, but just funny when I feel like I've got less chance of falling off something graded far harder. And Square Chimney is well precarious. Still not sure I want to lead it!
 Mr Fuller 14 Nov 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Yeah, it's very fall-off-able. I almost took a fall on it when I was leading VSs really solidly and a mate of mine came off at the top of the chimney on another occasion. The gear (tiny pink Wallnut) was absolutely welded after that!

Can't believe South Chimney Layback hasn't had a mention yet - I've led almost every VS at Almscliff and count myself as strong on cracks yet still can't get past the first couple of metres! 4c my arse! Maybe it's just really morpho and hand-size dependent.
Post edited at 17:26
OP 1poundSOCKS 14 Nov 2014
In reply to Mr Fuller:

> Can't believe South Chimney Layback hasn't had a mention yet

I was going to. First time I tried to warm up on it, and couldn't get up it. So I warmed up on Traditional Climb instead! I've seen a guy trying to do the E1 finish fail on the start. And a friend of mine who can climb E3 had hard work seconding the start. Okay, I can cruise up it now, but I've done it a few times. I just find it's a very specific sequence, which a lot of people (including me) find hard to work out on the onsight.
 Simon Caldwell 14 Nov 2014
In reply to Mr Fuller:
> Can't believe South Chimney Layback hasn't had a mention yet ... 4c my arse!

Yorkshire Grit Volume 1 gives it S 4b

Note that a thread that started out complaining about grade creep turned into a discussion of undergraded routes
Post edited at 22:41
 Simon Caldwell 14 Nov 2014
In reply to Offwidth:
> Square Chimney
> Severe in the first series West Yorkshire guide. I dont have the earler crag specfic stuff.

Severe in the 1951 guide too. As is South Chimney Layback.

Laycock (1913) mentions it but doesn't grade it explicitly - it's described as the normal first pitch to Fluted Columns (which is graded 'decidedly difficult')! Fluted Columns original route is described as starting up the chimney (now Fluted Crack).

Laycock doesn't mention South Chimney Layback, but South Chimney is graded Moderate.
In reply to Simon Caldwell: You've now made me insanely jealous
I thought I was doing well having been looking through my '51 and '57 editions of Climbs on Gritstone earlier and then you have to trump that by quoting Laycock!

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