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New Scottish drink-drive limits from 5th December

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 skog 17 Nov 2014
Just a heads-up for those who are not already aware - perhaps especially, visitors from unaffected Southerly regions!

From 5th December, the drink-drive limit in Scotland is to be reduced - from the current 80mg alcohol per 100ml blood, to 50mg per 100ml.

The general advice is to completely avoid alcohol before driving, and to be very careful 'the night before'.
 Dr.S at work 17 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:

do the scottish govt suggest what this equates to in drinks terms, or are they having a "none for the road" policy?
OP skog 17 Nov 2014
In reply to Dr.S at work:

The latter:
http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Countdown-to-lower-drink-drive-limit-125d....

In reality, it will vary from individual to individual - large people with fast metabolisms might get away with a drink with their meal; others might not!

It seems best to avoid it entirely now. I'm thinking of getting some test kits to see how I am in the morning when I've had a few drinks the night before - this is probably when most people get it wrong.
 danm 17 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:

Good knowledge, thanks for the heads up.
Bernard Shakey 17 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:

A few years ago a guy I used to work with got done at lunch time the day after, he thought he was being sensible not driving the morning after, and was genuinely surprised when he was found to be positive, no idea how much he had drunk on the night though,
 IPPurewater 17 Nov 2014
In reply to Bernard Shakey:

I wonder what would happen if you failed the test in Scotland, with say 60mg per 100 ml but lived in England. Would you be banned in England or just in Scotland ?
 Sharp 17 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:

Just found out about this today, you'd think the Edinburgh bunch would know better but I guess they're all just city boys at heart.
 RedFive 18 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:

So if you've had a couple and have blue flashing lights behind you, the best thing to do is head for the border?

[joke]

Though it raises an interesting point.

Sorry officer, I didn't see you. Oh my, isn't Berwick looking nice tonight......

Of course I agree the best course of action is to not drink and drive, though I often worry about the next day - the only person i know who has been convicted of drink driving was the following morning on their way to work.

Thanks for highlighting - had heard, but thought was going to be way off.
OP skog 18 Nov 2014
In reply to DefenderKen:

> So if you've had a couple and have blue flashing lights behind you, the best thing to do is head for the border?

An interesting revisitation of the old 'nipping over to Calais to buy beer' technique!
Wiley Coyote2 18 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:

On a legal point. Anybody know if I am done in Scotland for being over the SCots limit but am under the English limit do I still lose my licence in England too?
In reply to Wiley Coyote:
I dare say you would. Speeding still counts etc...

And in Scotland you can be convicted of Breach of the Peace (like our s.5 Public Order) and is still declarable here for jobs...

However it would be interesting to see it argued by lawyers in Court. Maybe it needs to be tested, any volunteers?
Post edited at 15:31
OP skog 18 Nov 2014
In reply to Wiley Coyote:

I don't think there's any distinction between licenses issued to residents of England, Scotland and Wales, so I can't see how you wouldn't.
 Helen R 19 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:

Same law change is happening in NZ on December 1. Here's some not-very-scientific research the local paper did on it.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11358899

AFIK, if you are caught a little over the limit, the standard is £200 fine and a 6month ban. We also have random breath testing roadblocks out and about in Auckland most evenings. Having a few drinks and driving is much more socially acceptable here (little after hours public transport), so it will be interesting what this change does to attitudes.
HR
 Morgan Woods 19 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:

same level that has existed in Australia for decades, assuming 50mg per 100ml = 0.05
 Chris the Tall 19 Nov 2014
In reply to Helen R:

That's really interesting stuff

"The men - canvas magazine writer Alan Perrott, 93kg, and online journalist Robert Smith, 110kg - were able to drink more before going over the new limit - three to four drinks for Perrott and seven for Smith.

Perrott blew 250mcg after three beers in the first hour, dipped back to 240mcg after four, presumably after food took effect, and hit the current limit of 400mcg after five wines and two beers.

Smith didn't go over the 250mcg limit until after his seventh drink - a mix of wine, beer and spirits"

Far more than I'd consider having before driving and could still pass the lower limit
 Neil Williams 19 Nov 2014
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I've played with cheapish breathalysers, and have found that one pint makes next to no difference to my breath alcohol at all, but two in close succession takes me right up to the current England limit.

As I would only usually have one (I don't feel fit to drive after two), the new limit would make no difference to me.

Neil
 cander 19 Nov 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:

Mrs C and her partner used to call in when on patrol in the evening - having had three bottles of Old Peculiar by 9:30 we wondered what effect it would have on the breathalyser - sure enough I passed, so in the interests of science they came back an hour later and I'd had another two bottles and was feeling pretty fuzzy - it went amber but I still passed ... they where however unpersuaded when I suggested I could have a drive of their police car.
 Timmd 19 Nov 2014
In reply to cander:
That story suggests a no blood alcohol limit is what should be adopted, it seems to me, if some people can be 'drunk' and still pass.

Post edited at 14:28
 cander 19 Nov 2014
In reply to Timmd:

When I was growing up, lots of people where drink drivers, and lots got off because for whatever reason they passed the test when breathalysed. Personally I'm very much in favour of a zero limit, but I'm getting old and I'm not bothered about being out and about boozing.
 pebbles 19 Nov 2014
In reply to Timmd:

gets a bit like prohibition though I think for people who need to drive to their work if they couldnt even have a single pint at home on weekday evenings for fear of being over a very low limit next morning...
Moley 19 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:

I don't like the idea of two different limits in the UK, it can only lead to confusion for holidaymakers and tourists. It's hard enough knowing how much an individual can drink safely, without having different limits in England/Scotland and no discernible border. Up or down it should be constant throughout.

If the Scottish parliament can put the limit down, could they also put it up?
If Scotland can do it, can Wales also play the game and chose their own limits? Piss everyone off even more as they drive back and forth over the borders. Though we could treble the limit in order to improve tourism .
OP skog 19 Nov 2014
In reply to pebbles:

Yeah, I don't favour zero either - for that reason, and because if you really mean zero then you'd be over the limit after using mouthwash, taking a dose of some medicines, or eating some overripe fruit. Also, I understand that a little alcohol can be produced in your gut without you having to consume any.

I can maybe see the case for something lower like 20mg/100ml but I'd want to see evidence that it would save lives, first.

The new 50mg/100ml seems to make sense, is the limit in most of Europe, and seems to be backed up by evidence.

http://bma.org.uk/working-for-change/improving-and-protecting-health/alcoho...
 Timmd 19 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:

> Yeah, I don't favour zero either....

Good points well made.

drmarten 19 Nov 2014
In reply to Timmd:

We have 20mg alcohol limit at work which is 1/4 the current limit. We were told at the time that they wanted zero but couldn't because of the reasons skog gives, in particular that the body naturally produces low levels of alcohol. I'll be sticking with my one pint with a meal rule with the new limit and with the work limits I already have I don't see any change in my night before the morning after routine.




In reply to Moley:

> I don't like the idea of two different limits in the UK, it can only lead to confusion for holidaymakers and tourists.

There are numerous differences between Scottish law and the law in the rest of the UK so I can't see this causing particular problems.
In reply to skog:
For many years now I have worked on a guideline of 'A pint before a meal then driving a couple of hours later' is not irresponsible. Going to a pub for a pint with mates after a walk is great but with no meal I am not sure it is within the new limits (I live in Scotland) so I will be foregoing that pleasure. I will also be more careful about driving the morning after a celebration. I have no idea if I have ever driven whilst over the limit due to a previous days intake though I have never felt any effect nor have I checked it. It seems that the pleasures derived from a moderate enjoyment of wine or beer at a nice country pub will now be tempered by a need to find a driver or be the driver and abstain.
Moley 19 Nov 2014
In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

You will just have to do your walking and drinking in England or Wales and carry on as before. I don't see the logic behind the divide and hope that Wales doesn't go down the same line and the Welsh Assembly declare a third different limit (presuming they have the powers to do so, and if not why not?).
But such is life, luckily I never go to Scotland.
In reply to Moley:

I wouldn't want to live anywhere else - drink/drive limits notwithstanding.
 malky_c 19 Nov 2014
In reply to Moley:

I'd put a fiver on England and Wales following suit over the next few years, at which point there will be no difference again. Unless you breathalyse yourself every time you drive after a drink, you have no real way of knowing whether you are over either limit - it's just a guess.
 Dax H 19 Nov 2014
In reply to Timmd:

> That story suggests a no blood alcohol limit is what should be adopted, it seems to me, if some people can be 'drunk' and still pass.


For me it would have to be zero. I have been teetotal for 25 years now though a couple of years back I knocked back a shot of whisky and it definitely affected me, this from a 16 stone bloke who had eaten well too.
Being the non drinker out of my friends I see the difference varying levels of alcohol have on other people.
Some people are clearly not fit to drive after a couple of pints whilst others could down 10 pints and go on to dance a jig on a tightrope whilst drinking pint no11 and not spill a drop.
OP skog 19 Nov 2014
In reply to Dax H:

But even as a teetotaller, you're probably not at zero yourself. Zero is a bad idea.

Sweden has set it at 20, which is basically 'drink nothing before driving'. There's a case for that, but I'm not sure how much difference it makes from 50.
OP skog 19 Nov 2014
In reply to Moley:

I see. Do you ever go to Ireland, France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, ... ?
1
Moley 20 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:

We did have a holiday in Bavaria a few years ago, but certainly didn't take a car, used buses and trains. I went to Ireland as a child, near 50 years ago - does that count?

 Richard Baynes 22 Nov 2014
In reply to Moley:
I've been trying an alco-sense alcohol meter for the past week and slightly misundertsnading the data, but a pint or a large glass of wine - with the critical half-hour wait specified by the make before testing - doesn't seem to put me near the new limit, I don't think. Two large wines, or half a bottle, with half an hour's wait, and I'm probably double it, well over the current limit.
In reply to Moley:

> I don't see the logic behind the divide

Because there is good evidence to support a 50mg/100ml limit, which is what most of Europe uses, but Westminster isn't interested in it. Maybe you should be pointing the finger at them?

 Neil Williams 23 Nov 2014
In reply to Richard Baynes:

I have found exactly the same thing. One pint takes me to 20, two in close succession to about 90 so over both limits.

Neil
Lusk 23 Nov 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:

Just play safe.
A unit is 10mills of alcohol. English limit is 5.
Multiply % by volume, eg. a pint ( 0.568 l) of 5% beer is 2.84 units.
Ignore the first half an hour, the liver will dispose of a unit an hour...you can work out the rest.

If you're planning on driving early the the next day, get wrecked as quickly and early as possible the previous evening!
drmarten 23 Nov 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:

Your findings are in agreement with Kenny MacAskill from last year, although he's changed his tune since then.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/new-drink-drive-laws-could-see-1...

Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill yesterday said just “one small measure or one pint” would be all motorists could have before driving.

MacAskill said: “The message is don’t drink and drive at all. But if you do drink, you can only have one or you will be over the limit.”

Although I'll be having one pint with a meal when I have the car (when I go for 'a drink' I never take the car) I'd question MacAskill's advice here, one pint of average (4.0 abv) won't take me to the limit but I wouldn't be having a pint of Tennents Super (not that I ever) and then using MacAskill's words as defence.
Moley 23 Nov 2014
In reply to victim of mathematics:

I'm not too concerned what the limit is, but I feel strongly that it should be the same throughout the UK. Yes, someone needs to get their act together and unify it again.
 Neil Williams 23 Nov 2014
In reply to Moley:

England should make their own decision and NOT be influenced by Scotland's, IMO.

Neil
 MG 23 Nov 2014
In reply to victim of mathematics:

What is the evidence ? I'm not disagreeing, just curious how you demonstrate the difference in effect between the two limits. Is there data on precise levels if blood alcohol against accident rates, with other factors controlled for?
 Neil Williams 23 Nov 2014
In reply to Timmd:

A zero limit is impractical because of things like mouthwashes and such. But a limit of 10 whatever-it-is would achieve the same thing.

Neil
In reply to MG:

> What is the evidence ? I'm not disagreeing, just curious how you demonstrate the difference in effect between the two limits. Is there data on precise levels if blood alcohol against accident rates, with other factors controlled for?

Yes. Lots of it. Loads of studies where Blood Alcohol Content is recorded at roadside after accidents, data on suitable controls collected (i.e. BAC readings from people who didn't crash) and the relative risks compared, after controlling for other factors such as age, gender, time of day and the number of people in the car (all of which can have substantial impacts on accident rates, but are less acceptable to legislate on for obvious reasons).
 Neil Williams 25 Nov 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:
FWIW I decided when I got home from the pub this evening after climbing (consumption: 1 bottle of Bulmers, slightly dehydrated from said climbing to boot) to continue my experiment but using one of those French type single use breathalysers that I had spare.

Result (about half an hour after finishing said Bulmers): no alcohol detected whatsoever.

Will have to try the other one with 2 pints (and no driving) and see how much difference it makes. My suspicion is I'll be over the (French, and new Scottish) limit when I do. Got a bottle of Old Rosie (7.5% I think) which should be perfect for giving the effect of two

Neil
Post edited at 23:30
abseil 26 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:

I'm struggling with this topic because I don't want to look like a Nazi.

But I suggest zero is the only way to go. (PS, many countries in the world are already zero.)

My reasons:
1. Any alcohol at all impairs judgment and reduces driving awareness and ability. If you drive after drinking you are putting other peoples' lives at risk.
2. Many people are unaware that it affects them, or deny it. I don't trust the "I'm fine so I'll drive" arguments, I want the law to make that decision.

Please spare me the [1] "mouthwash will put me over the limit" and [2] "one glass of wine / half a pint of beer doesn't affect me at all" arguments.
 Nigel Thomson 26 Nov 2014
In reply to skog: I've been utterly steaming and passed a drink drive test an hour or two later. I got an amber result and was warned not to drive as I may fail if stopped again. I had no intention of doing so as my mark II Escort was embedded in a wall. Everyone's different of course, for instance, I could always manage to drive drunk or high on ecstasy yet being stoned or on acid I struggled. With other friends it's the other way about. I think this will encourage drivers to smoke weed as the A9 etc or the run up to Ullapool can be pretty boring at night.


 Neil Williams 26 Nov 2014
In reply to abseil:
Very few countries are *actually* zero. Mainly only Muslim countries where alcohol is illegal anyway and thus the need for testing is very low.

Most countries claiming to be zero are something like 10 or 20 whatevers (I forget the unit) rather than 50 (EU/Scotland) or 80 (rUK). I suggest it is this, probably the former, you should be campaigning for. These low limits mean that mouthwash etc is not an issue, but the consumption of any meaningful[1] alcoholic beverage will put you over.

Why should we spare you those arguments? The first is certainly valid. The second is clearly valid to within any useful margin of error for some people.

[1] I can't see pubs introducing 1/8 pints or anything ridiculous like that.

Neil
Post edited at 09:41
 Cuthbert 26 Nov 2014
In reply to Nigel Thomson:

You could find yourself really regretting that post if you ever end up in court on driving charges. I think you are wrong also.
 Babika 26 Nov 2014
In reply to abseil:

> But I suggest zero is the only way to go.


That's all very well for on the night - but are you saying you seriously never drive the next morning after drinking the night before?

I was intrigued at my lads 18th birthday party last Friday by the number of guys who were measuring what they could have and reining back as they knew they had to get up and drive at 8/9am the next morning. The stakes are higher for them of course, but I'm not sure I've ever seen a similar thought process with my climbing mates In the pub!
abseil 26 Nov 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to abseil) Very few countries are *actually* zero... Why should we spare you those arguments? The first is certainly valid. The second is clearly valid to within any useful margin of error for some people.

Thanks for your reply, it's a serious topic that needs discussion.

Here's a list of 262 countries. 34 or 13% [not quite 'very few'] are zero tolerance [there are further countries, beyond the 13%, where alcohol is probibited]:

http://www.drinkdriving.org/worldwide_drink_driving_limits.php

I shouldn't have said "spare me the arguments" for number [1], mouthwash, I agree, sorry. But I still stand by number [2] - I don't accept the "one glass of wine / half a pint of beer doesn't affect me at all" argument.
 MG 26 Nov 2014
In reply to abseil:
> Please spare me the [1] "mouthwash will put me over the limit"

Well it might well with a truly zero limit.


and [2] "one glass of wine / half a pint of beer doesn't affect me at all" arguments.

True, but equally being slightly tired or stressed about something will have a similar effect. The new Scottish limit, which is in line with many other countries, seems about right to me. I certainly wouldn't drive at the limit of what is currently legal as I know it significantly affects my reactions.

OP skog 26 Nov 2014
In reply to abseil:

A -very low- limit, like the Swedish one, might make sense, but is there any evidence to show that dropping the limit further below 50mg/100ml actually improves safety?

Let's not ban stuff without first being pretty sure there's a good reason to do so.

That said, I've bought a breathaliser and done some experiments.

Half a bottle of wine (about 5 units) is way more than I'm happy driving after - but it only seems to leave me at 20mg/100ml 30-60 minutes after finishing drinking. (I weigh a little over 80kg - lighter people will obviously see more effect.)
 Neil Williams 26 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:

To be fair I'd imagine it's the fact that there's over 110kg of me that is making some difference here

Nonetheless after 2 pints of cider (Bulmers usually, which is 4.5%) I would not feel safe to drive, even though it seems likely I would, under current UK law, be legal to do so.

http://archive.etsc.eu/documents/Drink_Driving_Towards_Zero_Tolerance.pdf

is an interesting read, and shows a graph of risk.

Neil
 Jamie Wakeham 26 Nov 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:
"> [1] I can't see pubs introducing 1/8 pints or anything ridiculous like that."

My regular order at the pub where my club meets on Wednesdays is 'Jamie's wussy driver's shandy', which is more or less beer-coloured lemonade. I'd guess it contains between 1/8 and 1/6 pint of beer.

 Neil Williams 26 Nov 2014
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:
I wonder if we might with a lower limit see pubs serving more non-alcoholic beers for drivers. Kaliber was crap, but the Germans do some very nice brews, they had them on sale at the World Scout Jamboree in 2007. Rather nicer I'd think than the "lemonade top" (!) type thing you describe.

One of the bad things about drinking non-alcoholic drinks in a pub is that other than Diet Coke (which keeps you awake all night if you have 4 pints of it) pretty much everything else is sickly sweet unless you drink tap water, which pubs tend for unsurprising reasons (it doesn't make them money) not to like. Sometimes I'd consider sparkling water, but it'd be nice to have a non-sweet non-alcoholic non-caffeinated option that actually tasted of something (I used to think the same at McD's but they've now started selling Sprite Zero which fits the bill).

You do on occasions see Becks Blue (My Dad drinks that because he can't drink alcohol for medical reasons but still likes the taste of beer, and can tolerate the 0.05% residual amount) but not often.

Of course "non-alcoholic" beers are another reason not to do pure zero tolerance - as they have a tiny residual amount. Does anyone feel impaired after a can of Shandy Bass (so low on alcohol it's legal to sell it to kids)? No, thought not.

Neil
Post edited at 10:46
abseil 26 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:


> (In reply to abseil)
> ...is there any evidence to show that dropping the limit further below 50mg/100ml actually improves safety?... Let's not ban stuff without first being pretty sure there's a good reason to do so.

Thanks for your reply. Here's an authoritative website:
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-1/63-78.htm
Quotation, "a recent review of 112 studies provided strong evidence that impairment in driving skills begins with any departure from zero BAC".

Here's what the NHS says:
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/2096.aspx?categoryid=87&subcategoryid=871
Quotations, "The safest option is not to drink any alcohol at all if you plan to drive. Even a small amount of alcohol can affect your ability to drive... There's no safe way to calculate how much alcohol you can drink to stay below the legal limit… Any amount of alcohol affects your judgment and your ability to drive safely. You may not notice the effects...

Here's another website:
http://alcoholism.about.com/od/dui/a/impaired.htm

Edit, layout
Post edited at 11:02
 Jamie Wakeham 26 Nov 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:

Made with strong-tasting bitter it can just about be tolerable. I just want something vaguely interesting to drink that has no (or little) alcohol or caffeine. As you suggest I'm not going to drink coke because I'll never get to sleep. I'm damned if I'm paying good money for sprite, fanta et al.

Some of the Fentimans drinks fit the bill but they're expensive and by no means universal. I can't tolerate more than one elderflower cordial. This 'lemonade top' (good name for it) is the best of a fairly bad deal.
OP skog 26 Nov 2014
In reply to abseil and Neil Williams:

I'll have a read later, thanks.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be driving with much more than 10mg/100ml in me, and will not be drinking at all before driving.
 Neil Williams 26 Nov 2014
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:
There is this:

http://www.brewdog.com/product/nanny-state

which at 0.5% is unlikely to do very much to anyone's blood alcohol level provided you don't neck lots of it.

Edit: Same as Shandy Bass, it seems, and therefore not legally an alcoholic drink.

Neil
Post edited at 11:19
 girlymonkey 26 Nov 2014
In reply to Nigel Thomson:

> I had no intention of doing so as my mark II Escort was embedded in a wall. Everyone's different of course, for instance, I could always manage to drive drunk or high on ecstasy yet being stoned or on acid I struggled.

It appears you managed to drive drunk and embed your car in a wall....great example of being able to drive drunk. Well done!
 andrewmc 27 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:

The problem is that most people can still operate their car in terms of gears, steering etc while quite drunk. You don't lose the basic motor skills until you are far, far too drunk to drive. Instead what you lose is your judgement - which unfortunately is exactly what you need to tell you not to drive...
 Philip 27 Nov 2014
In reply to andrewmcleod:

The reason drink driving in the evening is dangerous is it makes you tired quicker. At 9pm with 2 pints you're about as concentrating as at 11 without. The Scottish limits are not about making it safer in the evening, they're another way to try and curb the habitual drinking problem by making a heavy night illegal still in the morning regardless of sleep.
OP skog 27 Nov 2014
In reply to Philip:

> The Scottish limits are not about making it safer in the evening, they're another way to try and curb the habitual drinking problem by making a heavy night illegal still in the morning regardless of sleep.

I think it's more about making it clear that it's not acceptable to have a drink before driving, changing the culture around that.
 Neil Williams 27 Nov 2014
In reply to Philip:

I doubt it, as not everyone drives to work. Stricter licensing laws such as reinstating the 11pm closing for pubs and 2am for clubs would be a more effective way to reduce "heavy nights" if that is felt necessary, coupled to a higher tax/minimum price on off-licence alcohol.

Neil
 Nigel Thomson 29 Nov 2014
In reply to Cuthbert:

> You could find yourself really regretting that post if you ever end up in court on driving charges. I think you are wrong also.

I'm also a practising solicitor so I'll take my chances thanks.
 Nigel Thomson 29 Nov 2014
In reply to girlymonkey:

> It appears you managed to drive drunk and embed your car in a wall....great example of being able to drive drunk. Well done!

I said i was breathalysed. I didn't say I was driving! Wasn't gonna let my mate get done for dd, driving without insurance, then get myself done as an accessory. That would have ruined my law career before it even started.
 girlymonkey 29 Nov 2014
In reply to Nigel Thomson:

So you let your mate drive drunk, and then lied to get him out of it. Hmmm, great advert for the legal profession. More worried about your career than telling the truth.
 Neil Williams 30 Nov 2014
In reply to pebbles:

As most people process a unit an hour, anyone without liver/kidney problems should be at zero after 6 hours kip if they have had one or even two the night before.

Neil
 Offwidth 30 Nov 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:

Which makes one wonder how much the guy reported above had if he was healthy and was over the limit at lunchtime the next day. I know a few regular drinkers who nervously passed a breathalyser test with at least 6 units in them. You must be talking a good bit over 20 units.

Driving drunk is proven to be highly dangerous and socially irresponsible yet the differences between 50mg and 20mg are far from clear in any evidence I've seen and the reduced risks from dropping from 80 to 50 are not large compared to many other factors that cause dangerous driving like being an aggressive knob, too doddery, being very tired, using hand-held mobile phones, significant in-car distractions, let alone drugs (legal or illegal) that don't get tested for.
 Neil Williams 30 Nov 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

I have only ever been over the limit at lunchtime when I have had a proper heavy night... And I wouldn't want to be driving anyway as I would be throwing my guts up.

At 7:30am perhaps different, though. 5 or 6 pints up to midnight (you start processing it straight away, not when you have finished drinking as some say) and you might well be.

Neil
 Nigel Thomson 30 Nov 2014
In reply to skog:

No one in my peer group has one glass of wine or whatever in the evening. More likely a bottle minimum or a few hawfs. Every one of them drives to work and don't expect themselves to be over. Its like thinking light when crossing crusted snow. Think under and you'll be under. Rozzers start their Christmas campaign this week so watch out guys. STAY SAFE!! Stick to weed or a few lines!!
OP skog 02 Dec 2014
I'm not driving today, so tried another 'experiment' - I wanted to see what it took to fail a breathalyser test.

I drank about 10 units last night, between 19:00 and 22:30 - a couple of beers, some wine and some whisky,

Testing at 22:45 showed 85mg/100ml - slightly over the UK limit.

But tests are meant to be done 30 minutes after stopping drinking, and at 23:00 I was down to 60mg/100ml - well within the UK limit. And there's no way I'd want to be driving at that point.

At 07:30 this morning, it was still 20mg/100ml - I wouldn't have chosen to drive, but was nowhere near the limit.

Tentative conclusions - I have to be a bit drunk to be over the UK limit, and can certainly be feeling the effects yet still under the new Scottish limit.

It seems I'd have to get very drunk for the morning after to be an issue, legally.

I certainly agree with dropping the limit from 80 - it's easy for me to be under that when clearly unfit to drive.
 Kimono 03 Dec 2014
In reply to skog:

10 units and you were only slightly over the limit??
That's what i call holding your drink!
OP skog 03 Dec 2014
In reply to Kimono:

Less by the time I tested, I was drinking fairly slowly. Probably "only" equivalent to downing 2-3 pints, I think - no match for Smith in the article Helen R linked above.

It does make me realise just how much people must have had to end up over the limit, though!
 Neil Williams 03 Dec 2014
In reply to Kimono:
I've been similarly surprised how much I can have and still be legal, though I haven't done an experiment like that, I did try a French style breathalyser after 5 pints a few evenings ago and was *only just* over the French limit (same as the new Scottish one).

If there's a lesson from this it's perhaps that breath alcohol is an extremely poor measure of level of intoxication, and perhaps technology for taking blood tests on the road (or another option) needs to be considered, or perhaps there should be a two-step process in that if you are breathalysed and there is any (>10 whatevers) you must then attend a police station immediately for a blood test based on 50, with the other option being prosecuted?

Neil
Post edited at 15:15
 Kimono 03 Dec 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:

Where i live, there is no limit! In fact, there are no driving laws of any sort...well, nothing thats enforced anyway.

This leads to some 'interesting' driving conditions
 jkarran 03 Dec 2014
In reply to skog:

> I'm not driving today, so tried another 'experiment' - I wanted to see what it took to fail a breathalyser test.
> I drank about 10 units last night, between 19:00 and 22:30 - a couple of beers, some wine and some whisky,
> Testing at 22:45 showed 85mg/100ml - slightly over the UK limit.
> But tests are meant to be done 30 minutes after stopping drinking, and at 23:00 I was down to 60mg/100ml - well within the UK limit. And there's no way I'd want to be driving at that point.
> At 07:30 this morning, it was still 20mg/100ml - I wouldn't have chosen to drive, but was nowhere near the limit.
> Tentative conclusions - I have to be a bit drunk to be over the UK limit, and can certainly be feeling the effects yet still under the new Scottish limit.
> It seems I'd have to get very drunk for the morning after to be an issue, legally.

Did your breath tester come with a calibration certificate?

jk
 Ridge 03 Dec 2014
In reply to jkarran:

> Did your breath tester come with a calibration certificate?

This.

OP skog 03 Dec 2014
In reply to jkarran:

It required calibration before first use.

It would be interesting to test it against another device, certainly.
 jkarran 04 Dec 2014
In reply to skog:

How did you calibrate it?

jk
OP skog 04 Dec 2014
In reply to jkarran:

Your implication is correct - it was a sensor test (the device is an Alcosense Elite), not a calibration, and doesn't give me confidence in the results being particularly accurate.

I'd like to compare with a machine that I know has recently been professionally calibrated, to see how close the results are. This is just out of interest, really, as I will not be driving when there's any risk of me being near even half the legal limit - it just doesn't seem a good idea.

However, reading around online a bit shows that others seem to find the same sort of results as I have - for example, the NZ Herald article linked above, or the chart on here:

http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/publications/brochures/BACCharts.pdf

It's clear that the authorities and mainstream media are erring on the side of caution in their reporting; this is as it should be.
 Offwidth 04 Dec 2014
In reply to skog:

Radio 4 yesterday covered psychology experiments which said mobile use was worse than the effects of 3 shots of alchol. Hand free use almost as bad.
 Martin W 05 Dec 2014
In reply to skog: Well, the change in the law in Scotland was all over BBC Breakfast this morning, so it looks like the powers that be have realised that it needed publicising.

The BBC reporter seemed to be standing next to police roadblock of some kind. I have always understood that random stops are not permitted in the UK. Has the law about that changed, as well as the blood alcohol limit?
 Neil Williams 05 Dec 2014
In reply to Martin W:

Don't know, but ISTR it can be done with reasonable suspicion, and I think you might have reasonable suspicion of anyone driving out of a pub car park.

Neil
Removed User 05 Dec 2014
In reply to Martin W:

It hasn't, the police still need good reason to pull you over. This was discussed with Michael Mathieson on GMS this morning.
 imkevinmc 05 Dec 2014
In reply to Martin W:

Dodgy light - pull over - smell alchohol on breadth - "please blow here..."
 Martin W 05 Dec 2014
In reply to Removed User:

> It hasn't, the police still need good reason to pull you over. This was discussed with Michael Mathieson on GMS this morning.

That's what I thought. What was going on behind the BBC Breakfast reporter, then? There was definitely a number of police in hi-vis stopping cars and speaking to the drivers. A "high touch" awareness campaign perhaps? (joke)
 balmybaldwin 05 Dec 2014
In reply to Martin W:
> (In reply to skog)
> The BBC reporter seemed to be standing next to police roadblock of some kind. I have always understood that random stops are not permitted in the UK. Has the law about that changed, as well as the blood alcohol limit?

I always thought there was provision for this especially around christmas time for "random checks"
I discussed this in the pub last night, to not a very warm reception from my 40- and 50- something mates. The prevailing view was "I drive fine after a couple", on the basis that they've never had an accident...

I'll drive after a pint, but I won't *plan* to drink & drive. Probably once every month or two. Very occasionally, I'll drive after two, but that will be only if I've chosen something weak (< 4%), I've eaten well, and I'm feeling OK. With a 50mg limit, I'd stick to one, and probably pay more attention to strength.

In reply to skog:
> A -very low- limit, like the Swedish one, might make sense, but is there any evidence to show that dropping the limit further below 50mg/100ml actually improves safety?

A DfT-commissioned report in 2010 suggests cutting from 80mg to 50mg would save between 43 and 303 lives and 280-16,000 serious injuries per year.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100921035225/http:/northreview....


In reply to Neil Williams:
> There is this:
> http://www.brewdog.com/product/nanny-state
> which at 0.5% is unlikely to do very much to anyone's blood alcohol level provided you don't neck lots of it.

I bought a few of those when I was off the booze in January. Tasted like water to me, and I’d rather have a soft drink!

They do Dead Pony Club at 3.8%, which I think is as tasty as Punk IPA (5.6%), but with only 2/3 of the units.
 Neil Williams 05 Dec 2014
In reply to Richard Alderton:
The trouble with soft drinks for a night at the pub (as I think I may have already posted above) is that there's very little available that isn't full of sugar or caffeine, and filling me up with either or both of those won't exactly cause me to relax. Might genuinely be worth the Government leaning on drinks manufacturers for them to develop and promote something non-alcoholic but perhaps a little more savoury?

J2Os are a good idea - a non alcoholic drink served as if it were an alcopop - but they're still full of sugar.

Neil
Post edited at 14:49
OP skog 05 Dec 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:

Potential big opportunity for Cup-a-Soup?
Removed User 05 Dec 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:

> England should make their own decision and NOT be influenced by Scotland's, IMO.

Scotland's decision will influence nothing. Any changes to English law will be guided by what Farage says so drink driving will be legalised, indeed driving after 8 pints of Old Bigot will probably form part of your new driving test.
 Neil Williams 05 Dec 2014
In reply to Removed User:

Somebody should brew a beer called "Old Bigot" and put Farage's face on the pump clip.

Neil
In reply to Neil Williams:

> The trouble with soft drinks for a night at the pub (as I think I may have already posted above) is that there's very little available that isn't full of sugar or caffeine, and filling me up with either or both of those won't exactly cause me to relax.

Oh, agreed. I get sick of sweet stuff on the very rare occasions I'm not drinking! But that stuff from Brewdog is so foul, I'd rather have a J20...

I know Australia has light beers (~2%). I've no idea how popular they are or whether they taste any good.

Good coffee would be nice. Not sure how practical though
 Neil Williams 05 Dec 2014
In reply to Richard Alderton:

Plenty of pubs do have an espresso machine. But coffee has the same issue as Diet Coke.

A range of fruit teas might be an idea - could they be promoted to be more trendy. Actually I bet many pubs do do that.

Neil

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