UKC

Hi all, after a bit of advice.

Firstly, a bit of background...
I'm currently an Assistant Section Leader (ASL) at a Scout troop, and have been for the past 2yrs. As of January, I will be taking over as Section Leader (SL), and the current SL will be retiring, adopting the role of Group Section Leader (GSL), overseeing Beavers, Cubs & Scouts in more of an admin role.

I was in the troop as a lad (I'm 29 now), and the outgoing SL was my leader back then. He was meant to have retired from direct leadership 3 or 4 yrs ago, but there were some (two-sided) issues with his replacement that led to him stepping back in again.
I became involved with the Troop about 3yrs ago, once I'd settled down from uni, moving around for work etc, and we've grown it together from 11 Scouts to 38 active members and a healthy waiting list.

The problem I'm now having is that the current SL doesn't seem able to let go and let me start making decisions regarding the Troop. I respect that he has been involved in Scouting for nearly 60yrs now, but I'm also confident that I know what I'm doing. I've planned & run camps, organised events and activities, run most evenings and ceremonies, and taken the active role in training sessions, but he still doesn't let me have the final word.
He was the one who asked me to take over in January, but is now discussing next year's camps as if he will be running them. I'm planning on changing one of them to a new format & location, but am incredibly worried as to what reaction this will get (he doesn't take dissenting views well, seeing it as a personal attack on him & his abilities).
What is also a growing concern is his memory and attitude; he forgets things that we've told the Scouts, changes his mind and then gets angry when we point out that they've already been told something else. He doesn't seem to understand how this gets people's backs up or causes friction with parents that I end up having to smooth out.

Does anybody have any advice on how to meet with him and present my concerns? He's a man I've got a massive amount of love & respect for; he helped shape my childhood as well as hundreds, if not thousands, of other children. I don't want this period of change to sour our relationship, but I also cannot continue to try and run a section when I'm not given the chance to do so my way.

Cheers.

In reply to Bimble: Do you know anyone else who has stepped back from direct leadership who could have a word with him about letting go?

In reply to Bimble: You are describing an almost exact scenario I experienced thirty years ago. I had similar affection and repect for our old GSL who I was taking over from. Without telling you what to do, I would caution against what we did in our youthful naievity which was to "brutally" exclude him from our planning and decision making. He was man enough to deal with it and maintain his dignity (no thanks to us). Thankfully our friendship survived but it is not one of my proudest memories. "Managing your manager" comes to mind. Well done for "growing it together", that wouldn't have happened if you didn't have a good working relationship. Confronting uncomfortable issues such as this is part of our development. Put a plan together and rehearse your approach to him. Be upfront with him and express your obvious appreciation for what he has done for you and explain you now want to utilise the skills he has helped you develop including cementing his legacy.Find a specific role for him in your camp plans so that he can still feels valued. I owe the Scout Movement so much and those harworking voluntary leaders are its foundations. Good luck with this temporary issue and for the future.

In reply to Bimble:

My advice for what its worth is to see if you can swap groups for a while. Ask the district if there is someone else who can step in to your troop and you go elsewhere. Trying to be the section leader in the scenario you describe will be a nightmare. You are an adult but you won't be treated as one. Elsewhere you don't have the same history and an interfering GSL that treats you like a child you will be able to grow and develop as a section leader.

Its not something I could put up with. You may be more patient than me, in which case good luck.

In reply to Bimble:

So the real issue he is moving on but not very far, and will still have a role, albeit perhaps more administrative within the same group. I only did a few years as an ASL back in the 80s and thankfully I never had to go through what you are experiencing.

I'm not sure what the new location and format means, but if your working relationship with him is to continue you may need to sell it (a change of his plans) to him convincingly. Alternatively you have the option of leaving as it has been until next year when you are in charge and he doesn't have a proper say and then changing it.

In reply to Bimble:

Ask him if you can take over the day to day running now whilst he is still there to oversee and mentor you to prepare you fully for when he leaves.
Play to his ego a bit.

In reply to marsbar:


It's driving me mad, but changing or leaving isn't an option, I couldn't do that to the kids. We've thankfully got a great relationship with most of the parents, and they know what's happening & are thankfully very supportive. I do most of the admin now, run each week's night, write the weekly emails to parents etc., but he still won't hand over the actual troop census data (thankfully going onto Compass soon so he has no choice) or to make executive decisions about kit or camps.

I'm going to sit down with him very soon and outline how I feel, as nocker advised.
I don't want to push him out, but at the same time, I can't continue as it is now; it's annoying me more and more, and it's winding up my GF too as she can tell how it's making me more grumpy than normal. I doubt that getting anyone in from outside to talk to him will help, but would probably do more harm than good.
We can't and won't exclude him, that's not an option, but I think he does need to understand that it's time to let go.

In reply to BazVee:

>Alternatively you have the option of leaving as it has been until next year when you are in charge and he doesn't have a proper say and then changing it.

That's what's worrying me though; when it is handed over to me next year, I can guarantee that he'll still turn up on a Friday night and try to impose his way of doing things upon whatever we are up to. His tuition style is vastly different to mine (he was an national H&S manager for a very large international industrial concern, I'm a teacher), and it really does clash at times when I'm trying to run things my way.
I don't want to ban him from meetings, but I'll have to see if it comes to that I suppose.

In reply to Mike Conlon:

Good advice that. I think there are two strategies. The risky but most acceptable answer is to sit down and discuss matters directly with him. However if you get it wrong and he becomes defensive you will loose the opportunity.

The other way is to involve him in decisions that aren't that important. Lay it on thick and canvas his opinion every step of the way. Make him feel special.

In reply to Bimble:

Might it be easier for him to let go if there's a clear new role/ project for him to move into? I'd imagine that he's worried about there being a big gap in his life, perhaps more so than being concerned you can't do the job. Compiling a history of the group, or some resources for current leaders, starting a supporters group to raise funds - depends what the group would benefit from, really.

In reply to Bimble:

Interesting problem, I have seen similar scenarios as work and in the voluntary sector.

The great news for the organisation is that there are two willing servants both wanting to do the best (in their view) for young people in the area. All very positive and commendable.

When I was younger would have taken a more aggressive territorial approach. These days I try to embrace people's enthusiasm and energy but direct it into those areas that allow me to follow my own agenda.

Be honest with yourself and your skills. What could they usefully do to contribute to the Group? Ask them for their assistance to drive specific and defined projects that keep them out of your way but make them feel wanted and involved.

Good luck. You are both doing valuable work that will be appreciated by many, many people for a lifetime.

In reply to Bimble:

I'd follow the route that others have suggested

I'd chat to him abut how you'd like him to be available as a mentor/consultant as his expereience is invaluable and you'll be making these decisions now and would occasionally like to run things by him (choosing which ones you do carefully) You are sure not everything you want to try out will work out brilliantly but you have some new ideas to and changes to implement, like the camp locations, and its nice to hae a sounding board, of course the mit sakes will be mine.

What you are saying is you are valued but im in charge and ill be making the choices, i may ask your advice, but in the end its your call.


if that doesn't work, be honest about how it makes you feel (impotent, frustrated etc) talk about your feeling not threats

Good luck.

In reply to Bimble:

A lot of good advice here, but something I'm not clear about - it sounds like he's the section leader at the moment, and will have a new role in January? When he takes up that new role (and you become section leader), might that lead to him turning things over to you without having to confront him?

In reply to Bimble:

In that case maybe have a chat with your district team so that they are aware. Even if they don't get involved maybe its better to talk to them and not be as grumpy at home.

In reply to climbwhenready:

He's currently SL and GSL at the same time, due to what happened with my predecessor.

I need to talk to District anyway, so yes, I'll be seeing if anybody can mediate or advise. I love Scouting, but can't handle being treated like a child for much longer.

In reply to Bimble:

Remember you are a volunteer.

It is one of the issues with Scouting, older leaders not prepared to let go.Very few troops seem to be able to cope with changing over from the old to the new.

Speak to district, I am sure they will have another troop you can go to where they would welcome you with open arms.It would also be a good challenge, you will meet new people etc.

In reply to Bimble:

(Work experience not Scouting related)


My old boss was retiring, and I was lucky enough to get the job. The handover was 3 months and at first that seemed an impossibly short period. After a couple of weeks, 3 months was looking impossibly long.

I listed out all his duties and we sat down together and agreed how each one would be dealt with. I.e. how they would be handed over & what (if any) oversight he would maintain.

He saw the sense in that but was concerned that he wouldn't have anything to do in the third month. "That's the idea" I said. He looked a bit misty at that point as the reality of retirement was brought home to him again.

It worked well as a process; worth a try?