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I am spending another season ski touring and am really really keen to get some avalanche protection, an avalung or really ideally an ABS backpack. These are so expensive but so important, does anyone know of any particularly good deals at the moment or have advice where to look?
Thanks
Thanks
In reply to ford23:
They are all very heavy. Don't ski where you think you need it: save money and weight,
cross your fingers
They are all very heavy. Don't ski where you think you need it: save money and weight,
cross your fingers
Post edited at 09:16
2
In reply to top cat:
I have an ABS vario - thankfully haven't had to use it - the weight doesn't bother me to be honest, though it would be a pain on a multi-day fast and light tour.
Contrary to top cat's comment: Get one and don't ski where you wouldn't have done without one.
I have an ABS vario - thankfully haven't had to use it - the weight doesn't bother me to be honest, though it would be a pain on a multi-day fast and light tour.
Contrary to top cat's comment: Get one and don't ski where you wouldn't have done without one.
In reply to John Roberts (JR):
Interesting last comment there. If I understand you correctly you are saying that you can ski in areas where these is higher avalanche risk as it will save you?
Interesting last comment there. If I understand you correctly you are saying that you can ski in areas where these is higher avalanche risk as it will save you?
In reply to ford23:
They're heavy but just buy one if you're not a professional. If you're doing a season you're probably fit enough to carry the extra weight on most of your tours.
They're heavy but just buy one if you're not a professional. If you're doing a season you're probably fit enough to carry the extra weight on most of your tours.
In reply to The Bantam:
Fair enough. I can't see why you would ski somewhere more at risk just because you have an ABS. My view is don't ski there.
Fair enough. I can't see why you would ski somewhere more at risk just because you have an ABS. My view is don't ski there.
In reply to Cuthbert:
No, quite the opposite - you should not let wearing an ABS pack affect your decision about whether or not it's safe. You should make your decisions about whether it's safe as if you didn't have one.
No, quite the opposite - you should not let wearing an ABS pack affect your decision about whether or not it's safe. You should make your decisions about whether it's safe as if you didn't have one.
In reply to John Roberts (JR):
Absolutely, but avalanches do take experienced skiers who believe they have chosen a safe line / day; it's not an exact science. It's a numbers game; how many days skiing off piste before the odds catch up with you. If you go for one of the recent models with carbon fibre bottles they are very light indeed - and you will soon forget the extra cost when you enjoy the weight saving. mammut pro is very good. Try snowshepherd.co.uk
Absolutely, but avalanches do take experienced skiers who believe they have chosen a safe line / day; it's not an exact science. It's a numbers game; how many days skiing off piste before the odds catch up with you. If you go for one of the recent models with carbon fibre bottles they are very light indeed - and you will soon forget the extra cost when you enjoy the weight saving. mammut pro is very good. Try snowshepherd.co.uk
In reply to kevin stephens:
Quite, hence everything I said. An ABS bag is a one of the tools in the last line of defence. Good judgment is the first, but nobody gets it right all the time.
> Absolutely, but avalanches do take experienced skiers who believe they have chosen a safe line / day; it's not an exact science.
Quite, hence everything I said. An ABS bag is a one of the tools in the last line of defence. Good judgment is the first, but nobody gets it right all the time.
In reply to John Roberts (JR):
Thanks, I didn't take that from your post but it seems everyone is in agreement.
Thanks, I didn't take that from your post but it seems everyone is in agreement.
In reply to ford23:
When I bought my ABS Vario with carbon bottle i did a weight comparison with my standard Mammut ski pack. When packed with all the other essentials for off piste skiing the difference was about 100g. If you then add glacier travel gear then you are never going to notice the difference. As John has said you should never let having an ABS pack change your decisions when skiing.
Lots of new packs on the market to choose from.
When I bought my ABS Vario with carbon bottle i did a weight comparison with my standard Mammut ski pack. When packed with all the other essentials for off piste skiing the difference was about 100g. If you then add glacier travel gear then you are never going to notice the difference. As John has said you should never let having an ABS pack change your decisions when skiing.
Lots of new packs on the market to choose from.
In reply to ford23:
Here's another way of looking at this.
If you're going to spend money on reducing your chance of getting buried in an avalanche then you could buy an airbag. It's not a daft idea and, as has been pointed out, it'll improve your chances if everything else that should have stopped you getting caught has failed. Alternatively you could spend the money reducing your chance of being in the avalanche in the first place by doing a good course or getting some one-to-one instruction.
I don't know what level of knowledge & skills you already have and it may well be that the best value improvement in your safety is indeed achieved by using an airbag. But new gear is not the only (and probably not the best) way to increase your chances of coming back in one piece. Knowledge is light, too.
Here's another way of looking at this.
If you're going to spend money on reducing your chance of getting buried in an avalanche then you could buy an airbag. It's not a daft idea and, as has been pointed out, it'll improve your chances if everything else that should have stopped you getting caught has failed. Alternatively you could spend the money reducing your chance of being in the avalanche in the first place by doing a good course or getting some one-to-one instruction.
I don't know what level of knowledge & skills you already have and it may well be that the best value improvement in your safety is indeed achieved by using an airbag. But new gear is not the only (and probably not the best) way to increase your chances of coming back in one piece. Knowledge is light, too.
In reply to ford23:
If you look at the figures in general they add a couple of kilos (and a bunch of bulk) to the minimum you could otherwise get away with and no company has found a way to bring weight or price down much despite all the competition. The new Black Diamond fan solution which looked so promising has not improved either of these parameters. Having skied with a stripped down "safety only" pack once I can say it's certainly much nicer than with a full size touring one and I would definitely recommend a day pack if this is the main usage it will get
Sadly they continue to be a hassle to fly with despite being entirely within the regulations and having been around for a few years - and before anyone disagrees with this just look at the skiing forums e.g. Snow heads for last season...... just because you haven't had a problem it doesn't mean they don't still occur with depressing frequency and seemingly regardless of any pre-travel efforts. If you go to the US then ABS is a bad choice
All that having been said, I was an early adopter of ABS and to me it's a no brainer to carry an airbag when going out backcountry skiing and I'm prepared to suffer the weight and price. It should never have any bearing on judgement of what is and isn't safe to ski
On the bright side, the competition has at least led to a much needed improvement in the range of size and functionality of the sacs themselves. the ABS Vario was always a great idea rather poorly executed but now looks much better with various third party sacs on offer to allow a genuine possibility of running, say, an off piste safety only pack, a day tour/ski mountaineering pack and a big hut to hut week pack all off one ABS
I'm giving it all one more season to develop further before replacing my first generation ABS but unless there is a big change in that time I suspect I'll be going with ABS Vario
Good luck with it P
If you look at the figures in general they add a couple of kilos (and a bunch of bulk) to the minimum you could otherwise get away with and no company has found a way to bring weight or price down much despite all the competition. The new Black Diamond fan solution which looked so promising has not improved either of these parameters. Having skied with a stripped down "safety only" pack once I can say it's certainly much nicer than with a full size touring one and I would definitely recommend a day pack if this is the main usage it will get
Sadly they continue to be a hassle to fly with despite being entirely within the regulations and having been around for a few years - and before anyone disagrees with this just look at the skiing forums e.g. Snow heads for last season...... just because you haven't had a problem it doesn't mean they don't still occur with depressing frequency and seemingly regardless of any pre-travel efforts. If you go to the US then ABS is a bad choice
All that having been said, I was an early adopter of ABS and to me it's a no brainer to carry an airbag when going out backcountry skiing and I'm prepared to suffer the weight and price. It should never have any bearing on judgement of what is and isn't safe to ski
On the bright side, the competition has at least led to a much needed improvement in the range of size and functionality of the sacs themselves. the ABS Vario was always a great idea rather poorly executed but now looks much better with various third party sacs on offer to allow a genuine possibility of running, say, an off piste safety only pack, a day tour/ski mountaineering pack and a big hut to hut week pack all off one ABS
I'm giving it all one more season to develop further before replacing my first generation ABS but unless there is a big change in that time I suspect I'll be going with ABS Vario
Good luck with it P
In reply to Paul Atkinson:
I fly with my ABS three trips a year and never have any problems, snowheads etc has lots of useful advice. Easyjet are particularly good. Having said that I agree the US would be more hassle. Have you considered a carbon bottle for your Vario?
I fly with my ABS three trips a year and never have any problems, snowheads etc has lots of useful advice. Easyjet are particularly good. Having said that I agree the US would be more hassle. Have you considered a carbon bottle for your Vario?
In reply to ford23:
I had one of the the original ABS packs some 15 years ago (ish...) and recently replaced it. My choices were either the ABS brand or one of the licensees, the BCA Float or the Snowpulse. The first removed from consideration (which may surprise people) was the ABS for 2 reasons: price and trigger mechanism. The easy one is price; ABS and licensees are much more expensive, they are the known brand and therefore can (or think they can) be.
The bigger reason is that the ABS system is fundamentally flawed in my opinion; it's over-engineered and is a pain to deal with for that reason. The trigger has a charge in the handle and needs replacing each time fired, in addition the cylinder has to be sent back each time used. It seems to me (although I have no evidence of this, just my perception) that the system was inspired by car airbags and built in a similar manner. The issue is that there is no need for such an explosive airbag filling in an avalanche and therefore no need for such a sophisticated system. Not only does it have the usage issues mentioned, but also the air travel problems as it's fundamentally an explosive system.
I confess I didn't do much exploration into Snowpulse but I believe it works in a similar way to the BCA Float; a simple compressed air cylinder that uses the fact that the air is compressed to inflate the airbags when deployed, i.e. no explosive mechanism needed. Yes it takes longer to fill (5-7 secs instead of 2-3) but so what? The advantages are massive in terms of ease of use; you can take it on an airplane with no issues and simply find a dive shop or anywhere with a compressor to refill the cylinder, no need to have a separate handle, lighter weight, etc...
I guess my whole post doesn't even address the issue of whether you need an airbag system at all because in my view you are simply stupid not to have one if you do any serious off-piste, backcountry at all. The statistics are stark; basically unless you're bounced off something hard on the way down, you'll survive with an airbag, without you may well not as if you're buried, good luck..
BTW I have no commercial axe to grind at all here, no relationship to any of the companies mentioned, just my opinions based on use.
I had one of the the original ABS packs some 15 years ago (ish...) and recently replaced it. My choices were either the ABS brand or one of the licensees, the BCA Float or the Snowpulse. The first removed from consideration (which may surprise people) was the ABS for 2 reasons: price and trigger mechanism. The easy one is price; ABS and licensees are much more expensive, they are the known brand and therefore can (or think they can) be.
The bigger reason is that the ABS system is fundamentally flawed in my opinion; it's over-engineered and is a pain to deal with for that reason. The trigger has a charge in the handle and needs replacing each time fired, in addition the cylinder has to be sent back each time used. It seems to me (although I have no evidence of this, just my perception) that the system was inspired by car airbags and built in a similar manner. The issue is that there is no need for such an explosive airbag filling in an avalanche and therefore no need for such a sophisticated system. Not only does it have the usage issues mentioned, but also the air travel problems as it's fundamentally an explosive system.
I confess I didn't do much exploration into Snowpulse but I believe it works in a similar way to the BCA Float; a simple compressed air cylinder that uses the fact that the air is compressed to inflate the airbags when deployed, i.e. no explosive mechanism needed. Yes it takes longer to fill (5-7 secs instead of 2-3) but so what? The advantages are massive in terms of ease of use; you can take it on an airplane with no issues and simply find a dive shop or anywhere with a compressor to refill the cylinder, no need to have a separate handle, lighter weight, etc...
I guess my whole post doesn't even address the issue of whether you need an airbag system at all because in my view you are simply stupid not to have one if you do any serious off-piste, backcountry at all. The statistics are stark; basically unless you're bounced off something hard on the way down, you'll survive with an airbag, without you may well not as if you're buried, good luck..
BTW I have no commercial axe to grind at all here, no relationship to any of the companies mentioned, just my opinions based on use.
In reply to kevin stephens:
if I go Vario I will certainly go for a carbon bottle
I must have flown a dozen times with my ABS now and have had some degree of hassle maybe half those times and I've always made arrangements ahead and carried emails and IATA regs printed out. Some of my friends have experienced worse including being forced to leave a canister behind at Geneva of all places. Mostly it's ok and problems seem to be becoming less frequent but really by now it should just be like travelling with skis and it is absolutely ridiculous that people on the ski forums are still regularly reporting difficulties both with individual airline and check in staff and with airport security even in airports that have vast amounts of ski traffic
MCR-GVA with Easyjet is my first trip this season so I'm hoping that will be hassle free as it has been the last couple of times
P
if I go Vario I will certainly go for a carbon bottle
I must have flown a dozen times with my ABS now and have had some degree of hassle maybe half those times and I've always made arrangements ahead and carried emails and IATA regs printed out. Some of my friends have experienced worse including being forced to leave a canister behind at Geneva of all places. Mostly it's ok and problems seem to be becoming less frequent but really by now it should just be like travelling with skis and it is absolutely ridiculous that people on the ski forums are still regularly reporting difficulties both with individual airline and check in staff and with airport security even in airports that have vast amounts of ski traffic
MCR-GVA with Easyjet is my first trip this season so I'm hoping that will be hassle free as it has been the last couple of times
P
In reply to marko:
interesting points and, again with no axe to grind, being in the market for a replacement pack and keeping up with the research I would put forward a couple of counter-arguments to consider
firstly as I understand it the vast majority of the cumulative data for improved survival comes from ABS users and whilst it seems reasonable to extrapolate to expect similar benefits from other systems, we don't know for sure that this is valid - for instance you rightly point out filling times differ - might other systems be less effective in the field? Might the head protecting thing actually confer a disadvantage that hasn't been established yet?
secondly (and perhaps surprisingly) I've never come across flying problems being caused by the explosive trigger/handle as you might think intuitively - they've all been pressurised cylinder related - you may have seen otherwise?
whilst ABS still lead the market, and if they continue to, its easy to get cylinders and triggers in major resorts (and many ski patrols are adopting airbags as standard) whereas most ski centres do not have dive shops (or the kit)
just some thoughts. I think utility and swapability of the sac will end up being my decider, unless something major comes out in the next season
P
interesting points and, again with no axe to grind, being in the market for a replacement pack and keeping up with the research I would put forward a couple of counter-arguments to consider
firstly as I understand it the vast majority of the cumulative data for improved survival comes from ABS users and whilst it seems reasonable to extrapolate to expect similar benefits from other systems, we don't know for sure that this is valid - for instance you rightly point out filling times differ - might other systems be less effective in the field? Might the head protecting thing actually confer a disadvantage that hasn't been established yet?
secondly (and perhaps surprisingly) I've never come across flying problems being caused by the explosive trigger/handle as you might think intuitively - they've all been pressurised cylinder related - you may have seen otherwise?
whilst ABS still lead the market, and if they continue to, its easy to get cylinders and triggers in major resorts (and many ski patrols are adopting airbags as standard) whereas most ski centres do not have dive shops (or the kit)
just some thoughts. I think utility and swapability of the sac will end up being my decider, unless something major comes out in the next season
P
In reply to Paul Atkinson:
I really like the removable airbag system in my mammut, I can take the whole bag and system out of the sack and use the sack without, or transfer the system to a different size compatible sack
I really like the removable airbag system in my mammut, I can take the whole bag and system out of the sack and use the sack without, or transfer the system to a different size compatible sack
In reply to kevin stephens:
I'll certainly be having a good look at Mammut's offerings when the time comes. They make a lot of good kit - my old Tracker had just been replaced with a Mammut Element and I've got various clothing of theirs - so I trust them to design the sac part well. They have restructured their airbag range this year and I gather there is talk of possible further big changes for next so will be interested to see how it plays out. I certainly don't want to be using a single sac for side country and hut to hut in future as I have done hitherto
P
I'll certainly be having a good look at Mammut's offerings when the time comes. They make a lot of good kit - my old Tracker had just been replaced with a Mammut Element and I've got various clothing of theirs - so I trust them to design the sac part well. They have restructured their airbag range this year and I gather there is talk of possible further big changes for next so will be interested to see how it plays out. I certainly don't want to be using a single sac for side country and hut to hut in future as I have done hitherto
P
In reply to Paul Atkinson:
I think the reason that the vast majority of data comes from ABS users is that most airbag systems are ABS... There's no reason to think that any system that makes you a large object (thus ending up on the top of the avalanche) will be any different from any other system.
Anyway, good luck with whatever you buy, here's hoping you never need to deploy it in anger!
I think the reason that the vast majority of data comes from ABS users is that most airbag systems are ABS... There's no reason to think that any system that makes you a large object (thus ending up on the top of the avalanche) will be any different from any other system.
Anyway, good luck with whatever you buy, here's hoping you never need to deploy it in anger!
In reply to marko:
Think I'm going to have to prefer & stick with the speedier version (ABS) of inflation personally.
The whole idea of these bags is to keep you on the top & the sooner they inflate, the more chance of you being there for the duration of the avalanche.
Never having flown with my bag I'm unable to comment on the hassles of travelling with it but surely for peace of mind whilst using it, its got to be worth the aggravation of the check in?
>
>
>Yes it takes longer to fill (5-7 secs instead of 2-3) but so what? >
Think I'm going to have to prefer & stick with the speedier version (ABS) of inflation personally.
The whole idea of these bags is to keep you on the top & the sooner they inflate, the more chance of you being there for the duration of the avalanche.
Never having flown with my bag I'm unable to comment on the hassles of travelling with it but surely for peace of mind whilst using it, its got to be worth the aggravation of the check in?
In reply to marko:
I'm not basing this on any study or actual data but a bag that took 7 seconds to inflate would worry me. Can you tell us why it doesn't worry you?
> Yes it takes longer to fill (5-7 secs instead of 2-3) but so what?
I'm not basing this on any study or actual data but a bag that took 7 seconds to inflate would worry me. Can you tell us why it doesn't worry you?
In reply to ford23:
As everybody else has completely ignored them, I thought I'd give a mention to my Black Diamond Avalung rucksack, which is imho the dog's bollocks! Thank god I've never had to use it in anger, but I like to think that it would at least give you a chance. Mind you, in some of the debris I've seen in the Ecrins, you'd be f@cked whatever you happened to have on your back.
JW
As everybody else has completely ignored them, I thought I'd give a mention to my Black Diamond Avalung rucksack, which is imho the dog's bollocks! Thank god I've never had to use it in anger, but I like to think that it would at least give you a chance. Mind you, in some of the debris I've seen in the Ecrins, you'd be f@cked whatever you happened to have on your back.
JW
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