UKC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-30204133

I'm not a runner, but am often struck by how tight the margins are with regard to warm gear and emergency readiness on cold hills. If this guy had been walking up Ben Nevis in that gear he'd have been crucified for it.

In reply to Jamie B:

Can't read the article now, but read it last night so operating from memory.

The article isn't clear what kit he had, runners will normally carry some kit (have a look at the FRA kit rules for races). It will be lighter kit than walkers have, but other factors come in to play when deciding what route to take.

The things that concerns me is that he got separated from his mates. This should never happen.

In reply to Jamie B:

Another runner, fatality this time, just about two weeks ago in Glen Clova.....

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-30049319

In reply to Jamie B:

Seems like the group he was with were at least partially to blame. Lucky man who I hope will learn from his experience.

As a fell runner, I take calculated risks when I go out in regards to equipment but some times things don't go the way you plan - a twisted ankle etc. If I'm with a group, however, I either try to keep up or ask them to slow down.

In reply to The New NickB:

I understand he had nothing other than shorts and top, nothing else. On TV last night he acknowledged this was a failing on his part.

However I agree that equally significant is that his fellow runners lost contact with him.

And of course they left the car park at 1530 with about an hour of daylight......

In reply to Kimberley:

That was pretty much my take on it.... carry a bit more kit and/or get friends who behave like friends!

I'm probably a bit boy scoutish in what I carry but I can't bear the thought of not being in with a decent chance of dealing with an emergency and getting myself off, rather than just going super fast and light and assuming that mobile or passers by and MRT will bail you out if you turn an ankle or something.

So - I have a small 'emergency kit' that always goes in whatever bag I'm using, plus the usual extra layer/waterproof plus torch if even remotely likely to be needed and map and compass. In fact, I tend to run with a printed out map or laminated map in my hand but I'm so paranoid about loosing it (dropped one once, windy day etc), that I still tend to have the OS in the bag anyway, plus it gives wider perspective when in unfamiliar terrain than a map that only shows the areas you expect to be running in.

Its all good training - If I can't do these runs with a small weight of kit on my back I prob shouldn't be doing them, and when racing theres invariably minimum kit so may as well suck it up anmd be used to carry it.

If I was running with friends and the group had that sort of stuff split amongst the group, I'd be furious if the group then separated.....

In reply to Kimberley:

I was out running last night on our local fells, we didn't set off until 3 hours after dark, but our kit and planned route took that in to account.

In reply to Jamie B:

I read on another site that 6 of them set off initially, but 2 turned back. So it may have been that they had split into 2 groups of 3 early on, with him in the slower group. Then when the 2 decided to go back he could have insisted he was ok to go on and would catch up the 3 ahead. So may not have been the fault of the 3 ahead. All conjecture of course.

Even though it was only a 6 mile route ( Sugar Bowl carpark, Chalamain Gap, Rothiemurchus Forest, Loch Morlich ) he somehow ended up at Pools of Dee. To be out in just vest and shorts at his time of year when heading off main trails ( which I would count Chalamain Gap and upper Lairig Ghru ) is not clever.

Initially sounded like it was going to be another bad news story similar to the Clova one of a couple of weeks ago, but good to hear it all ended ok.

In reply to Jamie B:

Got to admit that I agree on concern at the 'tight margins' JB alludes to.

I saw a chap on top of one of the Arrochar Alps on Sat in relatively mild but dreich conditions, (but with a forecast for falling freezing conditions to 700m), and he seemed to as well equipped as you would expect a lone runner to be, with a belt and harness jobbie. He did look cold and wet though as we swapped greetings, and I always think 'what if....'?

I simply don't know enough about the sport and precautions that are advised to make an informed comment, just one of unease as it becomes more popular and people are keen on further and further as the ultra running gains popularity too.

'Prudence' applies here too eh? How light is right?

In reply to JohnnyW:


It's an interesting question, and one I think about often when I'm out running in the hills. If I'm going to be off the beaten track where there are unlikely to be any other people, I'll always carry extra clothing - the nature depends on the weather and the time of year, and when I'm out at this time of year, I carry a headtorch.

But to be honest, I'm aware I'm probably kidding myself to some extent. If I'm out on a hill where there's no-one else about, and I take a fall or am somehow incapacitated to some extent, it's unlikely I'll be carrying sufficient clothing to see me comfortably through a freezing night - an extra thin top and a jacket is all well and good, but it's not going to keep hypothermia at bay if the temperature really goes low.

In reply to Jamie B:

I've got to confess, I really cringed watching him being interviewed! We all make mistakes and I think they're were possibly a few along the way. But, heck would you agree to being interviewed after making such a balls up... Especially if claiming to be a group of instructors! I'd be mightily embarrassed. Even accounting for the right and wrongs of how prepared they were, its a fair effort ending up where he did. Its not navigationally challenging, even in the dark.

In reply to JohnnyW:

I always wonder how much difference (if any) there is in approach between those who start fell and wild country running as an extension of running and those who enter it more from a mountaineering background? Or is it just that some folk are more naturally cautious than others irrespective of background.

Similar in some ways to differences between those who go to the wall to keep fit when not mountaineering and those who start their climbing at the wall then venture out....

As somebody else mentioned, am I kidding myself that my minimal extra layers and foil bivvy bag will really do much in an overnight stopover, or that the crepe bandage I insist on carrying will really let me strap a dodgy ankle enough to hobble out of nowhere myself. I don't know but I'd rather have a crack at it myself than be utterly dependent on others.

In reply to Ferret:

It's just personality isn't it? I run with people that won't do a weekly clubrun without a bumbag and raced at the weekend with people clearly pushing the boundaries of required kit. Both experienced groups, just different.

Mind you last night I ran home on my own with just a headtorch, after I'd left friends. Cheshire, not Cairngorms

In reply to Jamie B:


Hillrunning on my own, especially in poor or cold weather is quite possibly the most serious thing I do in the hills. when I am hillwalking or climbing I always have adequate gear to be confident of surviving a night and being in a fit state to sort myself out in the morning. Not so when out running, and maybe this is daft, but it's no fun running with a substantial sack. I just try to keep reminding myself to run defensively downhill.

In reply to Jamie B:

Just came in and saw this after answering Jamie on Facebook first. So here's what I said:

Quote
------------------------------------------------------------
Sure you know the answer already, but yes. See what Willie Anderson said (quoted at bottom of article). Plus why did they become irreversibly separated in the first place? Were all the others also too engrossed in their feet to notice for too long?

Winter (or wintry) hill running is great, but your margins for error are hugely reduced and demand constant alertness. And accessibility from one of our highest roads may mask the seriousness of some apparently innocuous high ground (Chalamain Gap etc.) at this time of year.
------------------------------------------------------------
Unquote

To which I must just add that I totally agree with Robert above ('quite possibly the most serious thing I do in the hills'). It's liberating, I love it and am quite prepared to ignore the odd telling off/crucifixion from folk who don't understand, but remain acutely aware that it's no casual game!

In reply to petestack:


For me, this is the key factor in him potentially becoming a fatality statistic, not the lack of gear though having more would mitigate it somewhat.

In reply to Jamie B:

all outdoor pursuits are on a spectrum of risk

I'm at the low end - walking slowly to stickle tarn while uli/killian and all high mountain users inhabiting the upper end of the spectrum, fell running is probably on the high end

However the bloke with the gps/giant first aid kit and MRT on speed dial is still on the spectrum

we probably just need to accept each others differences of approach as equally valid

In reply to gavmac:

I agree gavmac, it isnt navigationally challenging, even in the dark, and its probably the most well known landmark / feature for miles. It makes me question what business they have instructing anybody in the outdoors.

In reply to Jamie B:
Recently, I have done a lot of off road running on the coast path and on Bodmin Moor in the dark, and in fog. Even in broad day light, I got lost on the moor. A mile from the finish, I went north when i should have gone south (they looked the same) and added 5 miles to my run. I'd been used to running the coast path, which can be tough going, but presents (almost, in daylight) zero navigational challenge and doesn't feel serious. Doing the moor the first time, in the same style, just vest and shorts, and I came a cropper. Since then I've taken a bum bag with a compass and learned to use that plus my GPS watch to go by dead reckoning when I need to (which does require that you know beforehand where you are supposed to be going. I don't normally take a map on a run. The fun is in trying to memorise the route and then get it right.) Take much more than that and it's no fun, so I know there is risk, but for me, where I am running, at this time of year, the risk is of being benighted, getting a bit chilly, and having to wait for light to see where I ought to go.

It is amazing how easy it is to get lost in the dark, even on a footpath. If the terrain around the path looks like the path, then you can easily stray onto it, and once you've done that, it is hard to get back and to know when you are back. On the moor, where I am not even on a path in the first place, I survive by dead reckoning and good memory of the route I want, and what it should look like when I come upon it. It's fun, but hair raising.

In reply to SteveRi:


Must have been a bit chilly. I'd at least have worn some pants.

In reply to Seocan:


It probably is if you don't know the area and don't have a map or compass.


agreed

In reply to JohnnyW:

You run down hill..

I would often run in Snowdonia at night with no extra gear, even in winter... what if?

I one spiked myself on an exposed tree stump putting hole in my leg.. I just hopped out.. I was a bit cold and very sore but I got out.

I like the fun of pushing the envelope.. occasionally it will go wrong..

But you dress so light and take little extra gear which only buys you time anyway, so you just turn back far sooner than if you had gear.. I actually think those who think light weight gear is some golden answer and equivalent of heavier gear are more dangerous.. it's like this incredible belief that if you twist an ankle whilst wet you just pt on a water proof and you'll be OK.. it may buy you some time but not long at all if you were lay on the wet cold ground.. far better just to man up and get down hill quick and sort your ankle when you get safe..

But it's no different from soloing, in fact far far safer..

The risk of running on roads is far far greater than the risk of being hurt in the hills..

In reply to Kimberley:



You know monsters don't come out at night?

If you can't be in the hills in darkness safely then you shouldn't really be out anyway, its just like being in bad weather.. in fact the visibility is often far greater at night than in many grim cloudy days..

In reply to Ferret:



Exactly..

I think you are right though, some enter it from the road background..

The problem is fell running is forming its own guiding qualifications. You'll know see guided fell/trail runners who are 'qualified'.. and work as guides like an ML would.. it's a piece of piss weekend course, unassessed to lead training runs..not to guide. Unfortunately until we get deaths this won't get changed.. the 'qualification' is an absolute joke..

In reply to Jamie B:
I am always thinking shorts and vest in anything but boiling summer weather is a bit of a gamble in hillrunning in Scotland. See it all the time. I would take a jacket , thin leggings and hat and gloves in anything but midsummer roasting weather. It's just cutting it fine. If you are in a group I am sure you can cut down on that (but only if you can rely on the group...which he clearly couldn't...).

In reply to Heike:

I do a fair bit of fell running and even in a group I think everyone should at least have a coat. Rotating clothes in a blizzard doesn't work well. Everything gets damp and eventually everyone is cold.

In reply to tistimetogo:
ok why?

all you do is buy time..that guy X has used to walk out of.. so why should you dictate what a runner needs??

My general view is ;was this a fluke?'

"could this happen again?'
"will it?"

the rest can go jump..

In reply to IainRUK:

The only issue is how much time you buy, which is a factor in how tight the magins are.

This time of year running my local 1500' fells, I'd have a waterproof, gloves and a buff. That buys me the extra time I need if I need to walk slowly, hop, etc off the hills.

Bigger, more romote hills, I'll probably include some very light insulation, to give me that extra time it might need to get off the hill in the event of a problem.

In reply to The New NickB:

I'd often run with nothing but I'd be cautious .. I reckon I've ran 25-30,000 miles since I got more serious on running.. And I can't think of a time I felt too cold..

I just turn back when I started to get cold

In reply to IainRUK:

I can think of a few occasions, not always on the fells either. 1 degree and driving rain is usually the worst combination. I seem to remember Dave Norman got frostbite doing the Northern XC a couple of years back.

In reply to Jamie B:
A cut and paste fram the FRA forum http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showthread.php?21842-Winter-Advice.

Winter Advice
Received form the Mountaineering Council of Scotland

Sage Advice

Running into winter
Important advice for fell runners in Scotland’s winter mountains

The increasing popularity of fell and mountain running has led to fears for runners’ safety in the harsh conditions of Scotland’s winter mountains.

Heather Morning, Mountain Safety Advisor for the Mountaineering Council of Scotland, said: “Fell running can take people into some unforgiving terrain and weather conditions and they really do need to be properly prepared for their own safety.

“Hypothermia is a real danger for those too lightly clad to withstand a change in the weather or inactivity brought about by injury or getting lost or benighted.”

The MCofS spoke to Giles Trussell, an elite mountain marathon runner and instructor at Glenmore Lodge, Scotland’s National Outdoor Training Centre.

He has given advice on hill running safety based on his own experiences.

He said: “Heading out solo or in a group you need to minimise the risks associated with running in exposed, mountainous areas both in summer and winter.

“Weather conditions and visibility can change quickly, so check the forecast and plan your clothing and kit for the worst case of having to sit and wait if injured.

“Plan your route in advance (including possible short cuts) and let someone know where and how long you will be. Give extra consideration to water crossings, ascents and descents if very wet, icy or snowy.
“Know how to navigate in reduced visibility.

“Carry a map of your intended route area, including escape routes, a compass, whistle, a lightweight bivi bag and basic first aid kit. If on a long run – i.e. over two hours – have a strategy for fluid and energy replacement.
“Equipment needs to be adapted for each and every run. Shorts and t –shirts are not enough. A bum bag or runner’s sac are great for carrying the extras.

“Take waterproof top and trousers (windproof on dry days), a hat and gloves with you.

“Wear or carry extra warm top and bottom layers in winter and cold or wet summer days.

“In winter months a torch with a good running beam is an essential addition (avoid weak lights). Also consider spikes or running crampons that are compatible with your shoes. Some people advocate a larger pair of shoes for thicker socks and warmer feet.

“Be bothered. If you are geographically challenged, getting cold or wet, hungry or thirsty you need to act to resolve the issue.

“And, finally, if running in a group, reduced visibility and darkness requires good group management.”

In this video of a run across the Loch Mullardoch hills – youtube.com/watch?v=OT8rkAmHtFk& – Giles Trussell experiences a serious change in the weather and talks about his clothing, food and a map and compass.