UKC

http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2014/11/30/investigation-may-be-needed-aft...

Investigations may be needed...

I'm at a loss whilst one of the greatest features in a stunning valley draws people in..

I did similar in one of my first days out aged 14-15 with my old man.. I remember him saying go up there and have a look.. its just part of the adventure...

Yes people may get in trouble.. so bloody what.

A society experienced in risk assessment is far greater than a pampered society, the freedom to basically kill yourself with stupidity is not a bad thing.. you learn lots. Most if not all of us did.. some even wrote books on it..

In reply to IainRUK:

Tryfan is unique in that it is one of the few British mountains which you can't walk up and I think this may catch a few out.

In reply to Removed User:


Yes, and it's far more than an easy stroll by the road. But it's very near the road, and very obvious when you drive up/down the A5.

Edit, grammar

In reply to IainRUK:

Relief for Tryfan pair as they are told mountain rescue is free

“A look of relief came to their faces when it was explained that not only do we have free access to much of our countryside, but rescue is free too.”

.....So they decided to have a crack at crib goch at night using only their smartphones for warmth.....knowing that everything is free and help is just a short distance away.....

In reply to wiwwim:


who are you quoting?

In reply to John Kelly:
http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2014/11/28/relief-for-tryfan-pair-as-they-...

In reply to CasWebb:

got it -thanks

In reply to IainRUK:
i was on the rescue yesterday, and also the one on thursday.

i think you're missing the point. we all like danger, we all want people to experience the mountain without signs guiding the way.

the point in which the person was rescued from yesterday was 10m away from where the 2 stuck the other day were picked up from. its not on a path but its normally when people are descending they see there car and they just see that gully and think it looks easy until it come to and edge. by this point they have slid down on there bums and can't climb back up.

i think people underestimate how hard it is to keep on track on try fan. unlike snowdon where paths are easy to follow.

In reply to Craigyboy13:
'unlike snowdon where paths are easy to follow' Ha!

A few weeks ago we were staying in Cwm Dyli hut which is on the side of Snowdon overlooking the Nant Gwynant, 2 or 3 miles from the road. It was a very grim, proper Snowdon night. At about 6:00pm there was a knock on the window(!)n and there was someone there. He was totally drenched, hypothermic. He wasn't sure where he had started from - we finally worked out Pen y Pass - what he'd done - we think Grib Goch(!) but couldn't work out whether they'd got to the top of Snowdon or not. He'd separated from his party and been basically wandering around. He had no torch, no map, no whistle, no compass, no GPS, and his phone (which wouldn't work in Cwm Dyli anyway) was soaked. Nice designer waterproofs though, although they were of course soaked.The hillside between PyG track and the hut is vile - big streams, waterfalls, small crags, boulders, bogs ... I wouldn't like to do it in the dark with a torch, let alone blind. I don't think he had any idea how close an escape he had; one sprained ankle, let alone anything worse, and he'd still be there now.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Did you let him in?

Martin

In reply to maisie:

Not for long! Got the beggar down to the road and drove him to Pen y Pass, where he found his 'leader'.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:


That sounds pretty bad, what on earth was the leader doing letting him get separated? (Could have had a bad outcome, as you said)

Edit, I like your quotation marks around 'leader', too right.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Well, good on you. I remember, about 20 years ago, going for a walk under the north side of the Ben in fairly nasty conditions. We decided to have a quick stop in the lee of the hut there (CIC?) for a brew. After a bit, the door opened and a head poked out.

"I can't let you in".

No 'is everybody OK?' or even, 'how's your day going?'. Just a 'I can't let you in'. We reassured him that we were all good and had just stopped for a breather. To which he replied,

"But I can't let you in".

And went back inside. Being younger and even less mature then, we spent a lovely twenty minutes wailing piteously, begging for mercy and admittance. At one point, one of the group lay down in the doorway and scratched at the door, mewing softly and describing the progressive loss of feeling as the cold crept up his body until his tongue 'froze' and he succumbed. It was one of the funniest things I've ever witnessed.

The guy didn't make another appearance, but we convinced each other that he was sat inside with his fingers in his ears, going 'la la la la la' over and over.

I'd forgotten that one, so thanks for triggering it. Happy days.

Martin

In reply to IainRUK:
Lots of comments on the Grough page. I like the latest one that suggests signage using colour codes. I guess at the base of these walks/scrambles or maybe a coloured R of W marker? People seem to be at the point of responsibility and risk-ownership where they will start to moan, "nobody told us!" when they have to be rescued from a situation above their grade.

Anyway, the MR teams should decide what if anything, should be done, I think.

In reply to IainRUK:
Snowdonia is getting a bit daft. We've already had the local coroner demanding that all the 'false paths' - whatever they are - be eradicated now there are people askimg for paint flashes to be put all theway up Tryfan to show the route. All that would happen then is that people would follow the flashes and get cragfast on the scramble.

In reply to CasWebb:


Great, but I found the bit about the 4x4 funnier. Imagine the horror of being "surrounded by trees" with only a vehicle for shelter.

In reply to Dorq:



Why?

In reply to IainRUK:

Because knowledge, experience, (voluntary) responsibility for the lost and helpless? Put another way, they should be consulted primarily and then some people behind desks get to 'make the decision' and we all form an opinion on the changes to the countryside?

A coloured marker - not trail-side flashes - or a coloured wooden R of W sign instead of neutral, would help in the same way that ski markers help people, surely? It's information that can help people establish their limitations?

I don't understand the resistance to colour coded signs, if there is any, as the bright clothes people wear are much worse but don't seem to cause issues...much.

Jon

In reply to abseil:


I'd add that the presence of large numbers of vehicles parked at the base of Tryfan are probably a factor in inducing many of the 'victims' to give it a go. The proximity of all those vehicles engendering a false sense of security for the ill informed as they embark on their quest to see what all the other occupants of the cars are up to.

I wonder how many of the 'victims' park in the vicinity of Milestone Buttress, and how many park further away?

In reply to Removed User:
The only sense it is not a rough walk by the easy way is if you call every footpath an easy scramble because of the stiles.

Back on topic the man fell when scrambling so its unlikely an issue of navigation. I suspect the reason that rescues are common is the simple combination of ease of access, extensive free parking and very rough terrain that means sprains and falls are more likely here than elsewhere. Arguably more signage could make this worse....many folk are just not used to rough terrain and having been with a climber who sprained an ankle on the heather terrace path I know its a bugger to get off as a pair even if you are fit and strong.

In reply to IainRUK:
There are a number of factors here:
1) The proximity to the road
2) The magazine reviews
3) The Dunning-Kruger effect.
4) slippy polished rock.

There's probably more but these stand out as the most obvious.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

The biggest factor is that people know the North Ridge is a wonderful beginner's scrambling route but don't realise how much more difficult, both technically and in route finding, the North Ridge is in descent. Once you've started up the North Ridge it's usually easier to go almost to the summit and down the West descent path rather than turn around and go down the N ridge.

In reply to Ron Rees Davies:


If they stopped to think about it, they'd realise the difficulty of a North Ridge descent. What I think makes the difference is the knowledge that the road, and their vehicle, is 'just down there' and so the optional routes aren't considered. A similar situation arises across the valley, with people trying to directly descend to their cars at Idwal from Pen yr Ole Wen. Rather than the longer but far less hazardous walk off towards Bethesda, they're driven by the lure of proximity to the apparent convenient sanctuary of their car.

In reply to IainRUK:

Well, at least one member of that party was incredibly experienced as a scrambler. I've accompanied them on many a scramble, at night and by moonlight over Crib Goch, across a wet Aonach Eagach, even up Tryfan North Ridge and I don't think for one minute that the North Ridge descent would have even caused them to bat an eyelid. Accidents happen. It's a busy mountain, it'll have more accidents than quieter ones.

What's to 'investigate'? Daft turn of phrase if you ask me.

In reply to Dorq:
To sign the route, would take away its wildness. Surely the glossy mags that some of these folk read highlight the 'severity' of the north ridge route?
As I remember, the hardest bit of the ridge is prior to the west descent route, which is possibly where most try to reverse?

In reply to Skol:

I might be being a bit naive here, but the only time I've ever been on the north ridge was after coming up the east face, I had to descend towards the road in a hurry (funnily enough to help search for a lost walker!) and I found the route to be very obvious and no more than a rocky path with a 2 metre section of maybe mod or diff. Was I just very lucky to find the line of least resistance? Struggle to see how people get so out of their depth. No snobbery intended, just a bit miffed.

In reply to Dave 88:
I've only descended the north ridge once, and I don't remember any difficulties either. Perhaps if people have their confidence knocked at having to abandon the route due to lack of capability, then it could be easy to panic and not find the line of least resistance.
The fact that this route is advocated as a 'big tick' in the glossies, perhaps puts newcomers out of their depth?
In thick weather, with minimal local knowledge, lack of experience and reduced confidence, the route is a recipe for disaster. I see no harm in a sign at the bottom by the gate highlighting this?

In reply to Skol:

Maybe if it's supposed to be such a big tick, people assume they have to stick religiously to the very crest of the ridge, which I would imagine could be pretty hard. Dunno. When we found the lost walker, he showed us where he'd gone (off on the west side) and I remember thinking that I wouldn't like to go up where he'd been even on lead!

In reply to Dave 88:
Apart from the bit from the Canon, and a little rocky step below it, I can honestly say I've never been up the same way twice.
I think it's called the North Tower where you are confronted by a 4-5m rock wall, that I always circumvent to the east. I wouldn't want to descend the rock wall without a lead

In reply to Skol:

The "wildness" for me, on the occasions I've done it, was probably shattered by the sheer number of people and the odd race-canned R1 screaming down the road below. People are drawn to it notwithstanding the media hype - I first saw it hitchhiking and was back within a week to do it with with my 70 L pack on, walking from Capel Curig.

Perhaps a tastefully done information sign with an illustration of the mountain and path lines in red and black drawn over the routes? People like ranking and grading and even if they look at the photos in Trail etc, they know that they are about to climb a 'black' route for the first time, and so on. Not scrambling grades but walking grades up and to the level of grade one scrambles on things like this and Sharp Edge etc. I don't know...I can feel the grumpiness coming on regarding sociocultural challenges...

In reply to Dorq:


Good point. When climbing on the east face, the noise from the A5 hinders communication with your partner. I would not be too bothered by way markers on this route.

Times have changed unfortunately. Routes are well documented and sought after by a new breed of hill goer, who have no ability to route find, or, ? Common sense?

In reply to llechwedd:


this is precisely what doesn't happen because the people who have these incidents probably don't have the knowledge of their own abilities required to make these decisions

In reply to Skol:

Kind of go along with that, the magazines and ease of internet access do make it seem like a kind of 'let's go for it, to have a adventure' ... I've probably been guilty of it myself.
I agree that navigational ability is one aspect, but reading the rock is another. I do a lot of scrambling, I'm not a terribly good climber, so being able to read what is in front of me when scrambling is pretty crucial to a good day out or an embarrassing call out to mountain rescue!

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


Yes, I see that the Dunning -Kruger effect is an attractive concept. But I was drawing attention to the impact on decision making of having a car down below.
On the way up, the walker will have made thousands of choices of route- most with a degree of uncertainty, particularly as the route is rather like a maze-comprised of a series of rolling 'pitches' limited by barriers to the line of sight, and they won't see the summit 'til virtually on it, Some route choices might incur a minor slip or a downclimb, a momentary feeling of being lost etc. They may not be choices made rationally, but even the most foolhardy will have greater awareness of their surroundings than when they set off.
The D-K effect seems to suggest that the 'victims' don't make the right decisions (on descent) because they overreach themselves. I wondered if the knowledge of their car's presence nearby ( a 'propinquity effect) 'draws them to attempt a beeline to it. Over and above mere chance, this might help to explain why some apparently experienced hillgoers risk benightment on the North Ridge rather than choose a safer alternative descent.
I'd go so far as to suggest that, were there a bus stop below Milestone Buttress, and it was getting dark, with the same time pressures, those intent on travelling home by bus would be less inclined to straightline it to their intended transport than the car bound.

I gave the example of Pen yr Ole Wen as another mountain this seems to happen on. Maybe the presence of the car induces an inflexible way of thinking. They could walk easily and safely off Pen-yr Ole Wen to Bethesda in the dark and then get a taxi to their car. but, like a driver who, when lost, spends ages looking at the map, rather than winding the window down to ask a stranger for directions.

In reply to Dorq:

'm all for signage.. no issue at all..

I do think we are moving towards the MRT's believing they are policing the hills.. the NP's/Wardens in the US do this and it seems to be the mentality of a few MRT's.. kit checks.. I've seen one or two be very critical of people publicly.. I always enjoy getting a few words off people for my lack of equipment..

Yeah they rescue the lost, so what? I got lost.. I made mistakes.. its part of gaining experience, making mistakes. I always managed to get out and then got better prepared, some won't, some may even get killed. It just takes time and experience. But its better to expose yourself to risks and build your own experience than be fully coached on what is and what is not safe.. we're seeing it in kids more and more, just not being out climbing trees, getting in scrapes.. learning what is and whats not OK and scaring themselves a few times..

Tryfan is a magnificent feature, of course it draws people in.. there's surely no investigation needed into why people see the bloody hill and want to go up such a magnificent feature.. its the same basic desire which made people first climb hills all those centuries ago.. I love seeing people out for the first time, that raw lack of experience, just entering huge new world..

In reply to Lobsbelow:

I'm not sure its navigation.. like on the cuilin for more experienced types, on Tryfan you can easily bluff yourself out, especially in bad weather.. I've never taken the same route twice and many a time thought 'oh shite'.. I've been up with very experienced climbers and never once taken the same route..

In reply to Dave 88:


I think you lucked out..

You can easily bluff yourself out but as a climber a 20 for diff section is nothing.. for a walker it is.

The key is to just back track as there is always a pretty simple way up. I think the main problem is people taking ramps onto the east face and getting in the shit.. similarly with Crib Goch.. stay on the crest and its much safer..

In reply to IainRUK:

The main east face descent scramble is a bit exposed but no harder than the north ridge when dry. Yet for a walker it would look very intimidating, I suspect even more so in fog, so I dont get why they would stray down there. So is there really evidence of many walkers ending uo stuck on those ramps or is this just idle speculation?

In reply to IainRUK:

I had to stand and listen to an armed park warden in the States berate my group for breaking branches off trees once. He had a point but he put it across like he was in the middle of a Clint Eastwood movie. I don't think we are there yet?

I think it is the 'kidults' and 'adultescents' that are ruining it, getting on their smartphones at 5pm when they should have sorted themselves out decades ago; but what can you do if you are raised that way - "they f*ck you up". So that may be why you have seen MRT's acting a bit over-the-top? Beyond that, there is the egotistical bad apple, whether it is the police or paramedics or nutritionists...some people cannot adjust to the fact that we are individuals first. Generally, I think the MRTs do ok considering what they have to face after getting out there in bad weather and all that.

And that is not to say that 'outdoorists' have become more stupid, just that expectations - of themselves and others - have changed dramatically. I am reading Gwen Moffats bio and there are plenty of examples of stupidity back then and from experienced climbers. In fact, considering the numbers out on the hills today, people may actually be taking less risks individually but just more reliant on someone other than themselves. Perhaps there is your answer: some kidults may actually get validation from officious MRTs treating them in ways you or I might find condescending?

One day someone is going to phone MR and say, "Help, I've lost my Emotional Support Animal" on Sca Fell and it will be a sheep.

In reply to Skol:


I think that is rather unfair. Tryfan is a few hundred meters from one of the major roads in the country and has that must climb factor. There is nothing on the OS 1:50000 or 1:25000 maps to suggest difficult terrain nor signs at the road or parking areas to suggest its difficulty. So unless you have read the magazines (which most on here poo poo) you don't really stand a chance.

I have done Tryfan north many times but never done the same route twice as route finding is so vague. Descent is a nightmare at best. I would have no issues whatsoever if a single route were marked. They do it in the Alps and there is plenty of wilderness on the other side of the valley if that is your bag.

In reply to ByEek:


you mean like the fact the mountain is covered in crags?

In reply to Dr.S at work:
So you have never gone off route and come a bit unstuck? The OS maps show an ordinary path up Tryfan. Surely it would be reasonable to assume that what you can see from the road isn't the whole story? There are also clear lines from the road which are less than obvious once you are on the ground.

I would advocate a different symbol for routes of a scrambling / climbing nature like they do in Europe.

In reply to ByEek:

That is laughable. A quick glance at the 1.25 map of Tryfan shows very close contours and rock outcrops. If this were not enough to cast doubt, then the lack of clear path after the steps and initial rock feature, should be enough th cast doubt in someone's mind?
Given that the mags have increased the footage on the mountain, reading them has clearly not helped with people's routefinding / scrambling ability.

I think the damage has been done by the mags increasing the appeal of this route, and for the sake of the rescue services, some signage should be added.

In reply to Skol:


"Abandon all hope ye who enter here (without suitable experience and equipment)" ?

In reply to Skol:

Is there any actual evidence that the people getting rescued are picking routes after reading about them in magazines, rather than than because their mates did them and said they were great or because they did them with their parents when they were younger, or because they get three stars in a guidebook, or because they're obvious challenges that you can see from the road or whatever?

Gathering data on how people who ended up getting rescued picked and researched their route seems like a relatively easy and potentially very useful thing for MRTs to do, since it gives people some hope of targeting preventative measures sensibly. Is it something they already do?

In reply to Ramblin dave:
I don't know of any such data, Dave, just summising. This route always appeared a lot when I used to buy these mags.

In reply to davidbeynon:


Not at all, but 'enter at your own risk'?

In reply to Skol:

How about "go up this and you will most likely die". That might get them thinking but I doubt it, there are so many signs litter our world already that people just don't notice them anymore.

In reply to OwenM:
Good idea I agree about the signage. Perhaps there should be charges from MRT's for rescues in accident black spots?

In reply to Skol:

Or charged for the carbon, what do they refer to it as, carbon footprint and the money could be used to offset the pollution by planting a tree? A helicopter rescue must produce quite a bit of 'greenhouse gas'? Who could argue with that, as it would be symbolic and not really an 'exchange', which otherwise might make some rescuees feel 'entitled'.

In reply to Dorq:


Slippery slope... I'd think a sign at the gate is more than reasonable. It could say something like 'this mountain should only be tackled by people with the correct training and equipment'. It might filter out some of the more clueless, while everyone else knows to ignore it

In reply to Trevers:

Yeah, I realised it was a slippery slope or weak argument when I finished posting. It is hardly any better than the idea of a fine, which could actually be a deterrent for the black spots (for the uninsured or unwealthy, anyway). Planting a tree is about as much of a deterrent as the comfy chair used in the Spanish Inquisition.

Perhaps drones will one day be utilised with cameras and lights, and a laser-pointer showing them the route down...and a taser/defibrillator...

In reply to ByEek:


With respect, that's simply not true - the maps show very closely-spaced contours and a proliferation of standard OS symbols for rock outcrops and for boulders.

In reply to Sceptical Bastard:


True, but there is a lovely footpath marked right through the middle.

People tend to think that because the mountain's so popular and there's a path on the map that "THE" route must be obvious, and then freak out at the fact that every nook and cranny forms it's own little diversion.

I've lost count of the number of times I've been asked "which way is the path"......to which the only response is "Up".

In reply to Offwidth:


It is not a "walk" because it requires the use of hands. The fact that you might find it easy still doesn't make it a walk, not even a rough one.

In reply to Dorq:



Actually I realised I meant to quote the guy above you, sorry. I meant that charging a fine for rescue from certain areas is a slippery slope. I actually quite liked your idea.

Maybe they could engineer the lower part of the hill to be a slippery slope, so that only people equipped with axes and crampons can progress.

In reply to IainRUK:

Some interesting posts and ideas here but I'm with you tbh, it's a gret big mountain next to a car park, if people need a sign to tell them the gret big mountain is dangerous there wouldn't be an end to the pampering.

In reply to Sceptical Bastard:


So with that in mind, if the map shows the route up Tryfan as a no go, one should surely not climb up the path that takes you past Devils Kitchen, which is basically a constructed staircase... or the Pyg track which takes you up equally contoured territory... or Scarfell Pike via Dropping crag? Which are scrambles and which are constructed paths from the map? Why are we so opposed to a symbol for a route that is a scramble? In Europe it is a simple dotted line with circular dots. The contours on a map tell you nothing about the path on which you have to manoeuvre.

I just don't understand this mentality which is quite happy for people to come unstuck and have to be rescued by people who would perhaps rather spend their Sunday evenings getting ready for work the next morning. The blame is always on the people who get into difficulty, whilst forgetting that those same people are often like you or me.

In reply to IainRUK:

I don't think it helps that everything refers to Tryfan as an ideal grade 1 scramble. It can be as hard as 3 depending on which outcrop you take. There's a gully bit about 3/4 of the way up that I've seen defeat loads of people expecting it to be a rough walk. You'd think they'd look at it and think "this can't be right".

It's certainly a bit more gnarly than Striding/Sharp Edge both of which are also given grade 1.

I had to semi rescue two guys from there last Winter or the Winter before last I can't remember who had no crampons or ice axes. Which was a bit silly of them as it was utterly plastered.

In reply to wilkie14c:

I doubt that necessarily leads to more pampering. Signage looks normal next to a road. An attractive but informative board warning of the dangers, thus forcing people to register the risks in their heads relative to their capabilities, would be a kind of 'nudge' in the right direction. Even better IMO, would be some kind of rank for these spots, such as "this is grade N walk, N for Nasty". It might encourage punters to hire a guide, which is good for the economy, maps could be reprinted, sales of spikes and axes would go up...there is no end to the upgrade possiblities...

I think there are saftey features on Ben Nevis and isn't there a warning sign in some wilder parts of NW Scotland? I could be imagining it though. These features don't seem to have proliferated. And the warning signs in car parks "not to leave valuables in your car" don't seem to have resulted in more pampering or proliferation, regardless of the reasons for their introduction - they could be there because the police got tired of avoidable call-outs or the public blamed the lack of warnings, and so on. It might reinforce human failings but it might also draw a line under some unwelcome tendencies (to death and injury to our person not our possessions), thus a trade off?

In reply to wilkie14c:


There are levels of danger though. Snowdon isnt that far from a car park and isnt exactly dangerous (for a given value of danger given weather conditions) .

I vaguely remember the path up to Crib Goch having a warning on one of the gates.
Reasonably subtle but just a "are you really sure you want this route?" which should be enough to encourage people to do a bit of research first.

In reply to IainRUK:

Tryfan does seem to attract more than its fair share of MRT call outs and the North Ridge in particular. The Ridge seems uniquely prone to causing the "true" path to be lost. A very experienced friend and I recently started up to traverse round to the Heather Terrace for some climbing. I found myself in the lead but wished I wasn't. At every semi zig zag there seemed to be a choice of continuation. I soon felt the need to share my uncertainty with Dave but he was equally unsure about the path. I should say we had each been up there before and it was a clear day. Eventually concluding we were too high for the terrace, we turned our morning into a scramble and continued to the top of the ridge before lunch and descending one of the gullies down to the terrace and our route. I am not the greatest of navigators unless I concentrate but I struggled to relocate and determined that should I return,I would approach from the Tryfan Bach side. I see from Grough that the Ogwen Team are " investigating" why so many issues thereabouts. It will be interesting to follow developments.

In reply to Mike Conlon:

Agreed in total. Been there done that... each and every time I have been on the North Ridge.

In reply to Dorq:

There a warning sign as you take the path about Loch Treig as you head west (towards the glens bordered by the Grey Corries / Nevis range and the Mamores). Says someting about the area ahead being uninhabited and to be properly prepared. I love it: to me it translates as 'here there be wilderness'.

In reply to Dorq:
Here's the one at the Loch Arkaig / Glendessary road-end

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/obfumytfxhi1f5f/AACpmpbNTMndFOmRmldPC1d7a

In reply to Flinticus, sheep:

That is a nice sign; JMT should put it on the back of a t-shirt. I notice they didn't bother putting it in Gaelic. I also remember there was a sign at the Crib Goch path near the car park as someone mentioned.

I agree that the Scottish one evokes "wilderness". Perhaps Tryfan should just say, "You are entering a world of pain..."

In reply to IainRUK:

If the outdoor industry didn't make such fab and attractive clothing that seemingly renders the wearer invulnerable to the vagaries of the British season cycle, through the power of seductive and funky advertising, then we wouldn't be in the pickle were in now.
It'd be interesting to see how many OE manufacturers contribute towards mountain safety/rescue (some must do, surely).

That and the increased availability of horseless carriages to the prole.

Now if we all wore orange cagoules and bobble hats with galbiers and carried external frame nylon rucksacks... i.e geography teacher, Keith from Nuts in May....

M.R. Hats off to you for doing an ever increasingly busy job.

In reply to Ste Brom:


Fab and attractive clothing such as the stuff being modelled in the photo below, you mean?... Including fab and attractive boots that featured strategically-placed holes in the soles, all the better for soaking up the best that Irish bogs could throw at them? That sort of thing?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9rki2jahejasnsc/Wet%20Brom.JPG?dl=0

In reply to IainRUK:

I think a sign in the car park (or perhaps at the confluence of the approach paths near milestone buttress, although that might be more of an eyesore) would be appropriate, it doesn't have to to be pampering just giving friendly advice such as:

"Please be aware that despite appearances there is not a path to the top of Tryfan, to reach the summit you will need to be confident finding your own way in steep and rocky terrain and you will need to use your hands on the steeper sections. When there is snow or ice (which can be almost any time) you will need crampons and ice axes."

That's the advice I'd give a non-climbing friend if they expressed an interest, so why not give the general public the benefit of some friendly advice? I'm not absolving people of the responsibility to assess risk, simply giving them some information with which to assess it.

In reply to Oujmik:

Yet there are 2 good if rough paths to the top. The issues are the most direct north ridge line is very much a proper scramble and the multitude of threaded paths (partly due to scrambling/climbing access and partly due to corner cutting), can be confusing (especially in mist) and the rougher sections of the paths have led to many injuries like sprained ankles (that have caught out experienced climbers) and dependant on conditions can easily lead to serious situations developing.

In reply to Ste Brom:


What planet are you on? How on earth have you managed to make a link between outdoor clothing advertising campaigns and people coming unstuck on the fells?

I can tell you for free that when we were all clamouring to buy bright orange cagoules in the 80's, the Sea King rescue helicopter from Hull was still flying in people who had come unstuck on the hills into Airedale Hospital.

In reply to IainRUK:

Lots of people here suggesting signage but I don't think that would help. Surely no-one heads up the hill on an impulse, they have planned a day out "doing Tryfan" so seeing a sign once they've parked up and got going isn't going to make them turn back.

Mountain rescue have suggested investigating the causes of the problems they're seeing and to me that makes sense, it's not obvious (to me at least) whether the problem is numpties heading off without preparation and the right kit or perhaps more experienced people who are better equipped underestimating what they'll meet or something else.

Come on, we've all been there, done that. Prep'd a trip, carried the kit, balls'd it up, been glad to get back without calling MR.

In reply to ByEek:

I suspect that that might have been a tongue-in-cheek dig at the "we don't have any evidence what the actual problem is but that's not going to stop me having a little huff about my pet hate" tendency...

For what it's worth, my guess is that magazines and grading systems and so on are fairly irrelevant, largely because people don't tend to buy scrambling guidebooks or outdoorsy magazines until they've been out enough to start developing a clue anyway. But as I said, it'd be really interesting to see some actual numbers regarding who's getting rescued and why.

In reply to csambrook:

I think they do.. I spoke to a number of people who would head up with no idea with no real plan.. head out for a small walk and keep going..

You can walk up the north ridge at a very easy grade by chance, you can quite easily see why people would then get freaked out and be unable to reverse.. the odd sign may not be a bad thing tbh.

I don't think magazines are to blame, the ones I saw out weren't likely to have read anything.. you'd see people walking up snowdon with spar bags full of food, totally unplanned, always just nice to see them out as a family.. 99% of them will have no issue at all.

In reply to IainRUK:

Me and Mrs Num Num always avoid Tryfan on account of there being no cafe on the top

In reply to birdie num num:


That is not a reason to avoid , that is a business opportunity

When I went hillwalking with a German friend ( in Germany) there was an African themed restaurant half way up, and a Ice Cream parlour at the top!
He was most disappointed when I took him up the Cobbler on his visit to Scotland when he had to wait until we got all the way back down to go round to the Villiage Inn for a meal.

In reply to ByEek:


The North Ridge is a strange beast, isn't it? I've done it about 8 times I think, and each time it's seemed completely different. Varying between about grade 1 and grade 3 scramble. Sometimes seeming to offer a huge variety of choices, and sometimes, not much - particularly when icy, when it can get quite scary.