UKC

Hello all,

I have been indoor bouldering for around 3 years now and believe I have hit a major technique dependant plateau for the last 1.5 years or so as opposed to a strength one, in my opinion.

I notice and I have also been told that I move very inefficiently, and I rely too much on 'strength' to climb.

Some context: Ive been climbing v4-v5 with the odd v6 for the last 1.5 years. I do not seem to be progressing at all in terms of grade-difficulty. Strength wise, using the beastmaker fingerboard as a standard, I can do 8-10 pullup reps on the 2000s small crimpers, 1 rep middle finger mono as a two handed pullup (deep mono pocket), 3 one arm reps on the 1000s jug holds from a loose shoulder, 1 one arm rep on the 1000s deep middle pocket and can hold all but the steepest of slopers on the 2000 for several seconds (the steepest one I cannot even seem to hang from - is it my tiny hands?).

In this time, simply by bouldering problems, all I have noticed is my power endurance has gone up (I can give 50 attempts on a v3-v5 circuit in one session of about 4 hours, for example) but I cannot consistently climb all v5s (infact some are impossible to balance) and still no closer to making v6 more consistent.

So after doing a lot of extended reading on breaking through plateaus, I realise that all the material focuses on training programmes tailored to improve physical strength/power endurance. I believe my problem lies in crappy technique reinforced for the last 3 years (I struggle with drop knees, balanced toe swaps, toe-hooking instead of always dynoing to holds, ...the list goes on).

What do you guys recommend? Is it simply a case of trying a problem where I am not strong enough to simply power through and force myself to learn a more efficient way of moving, by repeating the move a thousand times? I do not believe that climbing an easy problem and forcing my way to use a toe hook when I can do it another way is beneficial, as I have somewhat trialled that for a while and I still cannot utilize a toe hook to bear a large fraction of my weight without it slipping on overhanging walls that exclusively require that technique.

I do have incredibly short legs compared to my body, and of course strength gains are becoming harder to obtain to compensate for my inability to move efficiently. What are the best drills to learn heavy toe hooks, drop knees etc..is it time for boring systematic moonboard training?

Kind regards,

Claudio

In reply to Cludzy Masta:
Go and see a professional coach, I can't recommend it enough. They will soon pick out the problem areas and give you a plan to help fix things. Most are under £100 for a decent session, well worth it in my opinion.

In reply to Dandan:

I cannot afford that, but you have just given me an amazing idea on that theme. I could video-record my attempts and view them critically afterwards. May not be anywhere near as good as the advice of a professional, but I can barely keep up with my centre's climbing fee!

In reply to Cludzy Masta:


I've been climbing v4-v5 with the odd v6 for the last 15 years! (But I don't think it's lack of technique).

At that level, it's pretty unusual to have a technique deficit indoors - outdoors is a different matter. Maybe you just climb problems differently to others and they say you're thugging, but actually what you do is just best for your body shape?

If you're only climbing indoors, and you want to get better, I would train strength as per all the articles and stuff. If you want to get better at climbing outdoors, you'll need to climb outdoors.

In reply to Cludzy Masta:

Watch other good climbers - try and copy how they do a problem
Work on your core - being strong is good but if you cant't engage your core and connect through your feet to the wall you will always struggle

In reply to Cludzy Masta:

You might get lucky if you keep your eyes open for some cheap coaching. Our wall had an offer on for three 2hr sessions for £30, over three goes it worked out the same as price as a climb, a bottle of pop and a slice of cake.

There's always those Niel Gresham videos. There's some great advice on technique and footwork in them. Here's a clip if you haven't seen it already:

Improve your climbing: youtube.com/watch?v=Usee0F_Ya98&

In reply to Cludzy Masta:
Do more traversing - cliffs, boulders, outdoors, indoors, whatever. Notice all the ways that you can pull each different hold. Your footwork will improve more outdoors.
Climb slabs, lead on slate
Go to a good bouldering wall, that has problems set specifically to make you think
Focus on flexibility training (yoga, if that's your thing)
Talk to people better than you at the wall, you will learn without even realising it

In reply to Cludzy Masta:
Oh and being too strong will definitely hold you back - there was an excellent article about that in the September issue of Climb magazine, by Steve McClure.

In reply to Oldsign:

That video is very interesting. The 'twistlock' I mostly naturally do of course, but I have the tendancy to climb like a crab sometimes (I am split-worthy flexible in those directions). From this I pickup I am very unflexible on the outside of my thigh, perhaps that is why I suck at drop knees and opt to almost never use them in favour of crab-styling up dynamically instead. I know what i'm stretching tomorrow!

In reply to Mike Hewitt:
I noticed outdoor climbing is a lot harder. Had a few days out near Tunbridge Wells (South East sandstone) and probably maxed at v1 (although I dont own a mat, which could be part of the reason). Pulling moves on real rock is actually scary and much tougher. If only I had the time to venture out more!

Also, I will see if i can get hold of a copy of September's Climb, I think my centre has a few laying around!

In reply to Cludzy Masta:

I hit a point where my strength had massively improved but I couldn't apply it and I overcame it with volume, volume and more volume. Every time I climbed be it inside or out I just aimed to do as many problems as I could in as many different styles. I would start with the easiest climbs available and work my way up the grades doing ALL the problems (no skipping the v1s on the slab because you hate them!)

You seem to have already identified your weaknesses (foot swapping, toe hooking etc.) So work on them. There is no magic easy fix.

In terms of coaching keep an eye out at your local walls for BMC coaching which is relatively cheap. Not sire where you're based but the Hangar in Liverpool do group coaching sessions for just the entry price.

In reply to Cludzy Masta:

Maybe try and climb statically ie move really slowly and reach statically, it will force you to be balanced. Start from easier problems that you can comfortably do and work your way up with good technique. Climb the same problems again and again and focus on improving your technique each time and making it easier. DON'T keep climbing with bad technique just to get to the top, it will only cement bad patterns in your head..

Ps I only climbing up to V3-V5 (strength is definitely a limiting factor for me) so wouldn't know about V6, sounds like you are strong enough for that grade though.

In reply to Simos:



I would suggest this too. On recovery days try problems at 'v3/4' level but do them statically. Repeat the same problem, adding heel hooks etc until it feels utterly effortless. Really slow the climbing down and engage the core. I've found these sessions really aid my technique and route reading.

In reply to Mike Hewitt:


I did a coaching session with Calum Muskett last year, One of the things he said that made an impression was that on a typical slate slab, you should be able to get a no-hands rest after pretty much every move.

Practice getting no-hands rests - and not only on slabs.

In reply to Cludzy Masta:

http://www.onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/8b-8c-how.html

Dave Macleod wrote an interesting blog about strength vs technique recently. In a nutshell, he indicates that most climbers starting out these days get very very strong but lack technique, particularly the incredibly subtle technique changes often required to climb well outside, or that mean success or failure on a route/boulder problem, especially at your physical limit, as Dave says:

"What was slightly unusual about my background in climbing was how little I time I spent in climbing walls during that period. I climbed outdoors, year round. My staple diet of climbing was trying super technical projects at Dumbarton Rock. I really valued the fact that they could be cracked by exploring every subtle detail of the technique used to climb them in place of brute strength. When conditions allowed, I’d be teetering about on hard mixed routes, mountain trad, sport climbing, sea cliffs, etc, etc. I had built up a huge depth of experience as a tactician"

"I can’t overemphasise the importance of the previous decade of building up those skills in being a solid all-round climber. The pure finger strength was just the final piece of the puzzle. The fashion in the popular climbing culture is very much revolving around physical strength right now. The underlying message is ‘let’s train like proper athletes’ and that means this kind of stuff. That’s great, but it is nothing if you miss the crucial toe-hook that knocks a grade off the problem, or you are so scared you crush the rock as soon as you are 20 feet above a bolt. The strength level generally among climbers these days is mind blowing. Training like proper athletes means being able to use every ounce of strength in your muscles at the right moment. While you might be able to one-arm a crimp in 6 months with nothing but a piece of wood above your doorframe, you can’t shortcut learning to be able to do something good with all that strength."

I really cant give you much sensible advice (as you already climb harder than me inside) but spending time climbing outside would no doubt benefit you, especially as you said you struggle on V1 problems outside.

Good books to try are The Self Coached Climber, as this talks extensively about movement, balance, grip type, rather than just 'how to get strong'.

In reply to Cludzy Masta:

Climbing with other people at your level can help you a lot. You can try to copy other people's beta to find a more technique oriented way of climbing certain problems.

I also think it is a good idea to climb more outside, or even at other indoor venues, just to get used to a different style of climbing. If your body 'learns' different ways of moving on the rock you will be able to apply that also on the problems you are used to power through.

In reply to Simos:

Although it may be a useful exercise, climbing slowly and statically is in many cases terrible technique (assuming by technique you mean most efficient method of climbing the problem.) Especially on anything overhanging, if you can move fluidly and dynamically you will be able to climb far harder than if you attempt to climb slowly and keep your feet on at all times.

Of course, I'm not advocating ignoring your feet and madly grabbing at holds, but if you can do your exercise and then speed it up to climb the problem as fast and fluidly as possibly, you'll probably discover that a few of those heel hooks, slow lock offs and foot swaps can be bypassed by harnessing some momentum.

In reply to Cludzy Masta:

Hi there Claudio
Based on what you can do on the 1000 and 2000, you should be averaging a lot harder than V4/5. Are there no free improvers sessions at your wall?

In reply to iccle_bully:

The volume aspect is something I am trying for the second time. Previously my body has just adapted by being able to climb many more problems around v3-v4 (long climbing sessions involving many sends) at a high frequency of 3-4 times a week but not really increase my maximum grade. I've definately become more well-rounded within this grade range, and perhaps this is a slow sign of progress. I will take from this that I should apply volume training specifically to practise movements I suck at, as opposed to reinforcing movements i'm already good at. I'll make sure I won't regress in my strengths, and instead really focus intensely on my weaknesses - i've already stopped looking at problem grades for the past few sessions, instead focusing on my perception of how hard the moves are.

In reply to Oogachooga:

Repeating problems is something I have not practised very much. It is interesting you raise this point as it highlights just how much of climbing is technical as opposed to physical. I am sure everyone has experienced working a problem for an extensive period of time, to finally send it after several sessions of hard work, to then find him/herself being able to 'flash' it with almost ease every time from that point on (when only the other day it felt physically at the limit).

It is as if the real struggle is learning how to efficiently wire the movement pattern, as the body does not become significantly stronger overnight! Perhaps repeating is an excellent method to refine the learned motor pattern until it becomes super efficient and perfect. Again this is something I will consciously try to incorporate into my sessions.

In reply to Phil79:

Dave has hit the nail on the head. This is exactly the realisation I have come to.

This results in a bit of a mess for such a skewed climber as:

1) Routes that demand a level of technique not yet developed are too difficult to train with, i.e that toe hook is impossible and cutting loose on such bad holds would require elite pincers for hands.
2) Routes that could use a level of technique within the skill limit of the climber often do not present enough of a physical challenge, i.e. climbing v3/4's to train for v6 doesn't work.

So really, to fix this problem one needs to try and close the technique to strength gap as much as possible. There is an upper limit to the techniques one can learn in climbing, past that point I guess it does become purely physical, but for a relatively new climber starting slightly later in life than a pre-pubescent child this technical element is much harder to learn and 'feel' than the passive strength gains made.

Maybe for those lacking good technique, climbing technical problems within ones limit in huge volume will probably be the best stimulus to learn how to move better. However to avoid strength regression, some technically simple overhanging problems that test finger strength and power should still form a good part of the weekly training.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
There is an adult improvers class at my wall, but I think they stay within quite low problem grades. I can inquire about what they offer, but so far climbing with a group of a slightly better ability has been the best approach if I am lucky to find one that will let me join them when I am there.

In reply to Cludzy Masta:

Have you had a think about why you are falling off these higher grade problems. I am at about the level where I can do most V6 indoor problems but V8 seems to require something else that I don't have right now. I know that one of my major weaknesses is slopers and also bunched up problems where I can't position my body in the right place to be able to move again.

What sort of problem do you normally fail on? Do your feet usually come off which leads to the rest of you following suite? Do the moves simply feel to hard / strong?

In reply to Cludzy Masta:


This seems like a bit of a false dichotomy, where all problems are either within your current technical limit or "impossible", with no middle ground.

I'd suggest looking at some of the V5s you currently find "impossible to balance" on -- balance-y slabby problems are great because they tend to take strength out of the equation altogether. Then project them. Watch how people who are weaker than you do them. Ask for tips and beta. Play around, experiment until you start to get the feel of the movement and it becomes possible.

Doing a huge volume of problems that are already within your technical limit may make you more fluent and better at reading problems fast, but it's not going to require you to learn anything new.


Absolutely. So think of it more like learning a language rather than training a muscle.

In reply to Cludzy Masta:

One of the things I always think is overlooked about indoor vs outdoor technique is that indoors you usually have 2 hand holds and 2 foot holds and if you don't want to use those you are stuff. Outdoors you perhaps have a choice between 3 or 4 hand holds of varying quality and a huge number of places you could position your feet. That leads to technique becoming much more variable and important outdoors than indoors.

Yes there is a lot of technique involved in indoor climbing but I think that if you are not the right height or proportions for a route indoors you just have to get into the best position you can and have a go whereas outdoors you can perhaps use a lower or higher foothold or a different hand hold to make things easier.

In reply to Cludzy Masta:

Maybe someone has already said this but if you are bouldering for 4 hours you really aren't in a position to be giving your best efforts. A bouldering ladder (working your way through the grades until you reach your max) is a good way to warm up and I usually spend an hour doing this and then problems right at my limit. What are your strengths? are you bad at slabs or overhangs? Look for problems you are going to find hard, e.g. lots of slopers or whatever. Watch other people climb and remember how they find beta

In reply to Mike Hewitt:


I'd be interested to know what the gist of his argument is, if you know it? It does sound odd.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Being too strong -> having excess muscle mass that cannot be applied effectively due to other limits such as finger strength, friction and flexibility, this excess muscle doesn't help and adds weight with lowers perfomance.

In reply to Cludzy Masta:


Same here but for 15 years except I'm weak as a kitten and getting tubby.


That's plenty of strength, far far in excess of what I have climbing at the same level (with pretty average technique). Hanging the 45deg slopers on your board is mostly about the surface quality of your board, it probably needs roughing up a little, I wouldn't worry about it.


Sounds likely unless you have some specific problem, say poor core strength meaning you can't bring that strength to bear except when hanging under a board.


Climb better. Focus on moving slowly and accurately in full control, using your body precisely, finding the positions and forces that free up limbs completely to rest or move without upsetting your balance. Personally I do it on the easiest of problems, it's just a normal part of my warm up figuring out the most controlled sequence requiring the least strength. For me this is partly because I have little surplus strength and partly for injury prevention but the bonus is it drills in good technique. When I'm trying harder stuff and struggling I don't have to think so hard, I just know which way to face, I can feel when I'm close to a balance position worth working for or when I'm getting strung out into a shape I'm not strong enough to hold.

Don't forget that big pop past bad holds is sometimes still the best solution.

It's not easy to do alone and if you can't afford a coach another good option (and I'd say first choice anyway) is to expand the group you climb with, find people with a different set of strengths and weaknesses then learn from them, try their sequences even on stuff you can do, watch for the extra little moves and weight shifts they make to improve their efficiency, to use less strength.

Keep learning. Three years in is still just starting out for most with average levels of talent and or drive.


Do some, do lots, do them better than last time until you're good at them. Don't do it in isolation, just build it into your normal climbing from the warm up onward until you find yourself trying them without thinking as you work harder problems.

jk

In reply to duchessofmalfi:


Thanks. I was assuming finger strength was part of being strong? I know it's not your article (unless you're Steve McClure) but could that excess muscle mass come in useful eventually, when your finger strength and technique improve? I guess nobody is completely balanced as a climber. Isn't the problem better described as 'having too much muscle mass' anyway?

In reply to Cludzy Masta:

I've never met you nor seen you climb but I going to stick my neck out here and say - t's all in the feet. I had some coaching a couple of years ago and this really highlighted to me how many of my 'roadblocks' were down to needing to improve my footwork and being concious of my centre of gravity. And it's not just me, I see it all the time now in other people now. Sadly for you, unless the wall you use sets really well thought out problems you'll probably need to get outsdide on easier probelms and really focus on your feet and balance.

In reply to Cludzy Masta:
Lots of good points already mentioned so I’ll try to be short. I’m an average climber but I sent a few classics and I have a strong view on this matter.

I’ve heard your comment so many times, and almost always from people stuck in the situation you're describing.

They seem to all fall in the same trap : they all train specifically, as if they were Güllich (or whoever your hero is).

They all have a training plan, do set of pull ups on campus boards, clock up hours on the same bouldering board, hoping to break through the next grade (be it 5+, 6b or 7b).

The truth is, Güllich specifically trained for a 9a, not a 6b.

The best piece of advice I’ve ever received (from a guy who could boulder f8a+) was : « Climbing is the best training for climbing ». That was his only form of training, believe it or not.

Beastmaker (and the rest of the training devices) does what it says on the tin : it makes a beast of you. But to climb, you’ll also need your brain – I don’t mean a cold head (though it’s clearly necessary for trad climbing), I mean imagination and memory.

I could go on for ages on the topic, like everyone else I’m sure, but I agree with Phil79, read (carefully !) Dave McLeod’s blog, and “9 out of 10 climbers make the same mistakes” (you can’t afford a coach, but I’m sure you can afford a book).

Dave does not say anything else than that: climb, climb, climb. Use your imagination, train your memory, break your routines. Vary the holds, angles, rock types, board venues…

In reply to Pierre Fuentes:

As much as I agree with this, there are thousands of guys that climb 2-3 times a week and have been doing so for 20 years and they are rubbish climbers. You can never have fingers that are too strong and training them specifically is never a bad idea. Most of us want to get stronger as fast as possible and you can't get that far with just technique. If you can't hang the holds you can't make the move.

You will find that once you get to a certain grade (not that high in the grand scheme of things) you simply can't pull on some holds without using at least decent technique.

There is also the fact that a lot of us can't get to the wall 4 times a week so when we get down there two times we want to climb as hard as we can instead of using that time to focus on our technique. If we didn't do some fingerboarding at home we wouldn't progress half as fast.

In reply to mctrials23:
If you noticed that finger boarding makes you progress faster, then keep doing it, but in my book, to progress is the contrary of being stuck.

There's a Spanish expression I love: "matar moscas a cañonazos". It means more or less to kill flies with canon shots.

I believe in English it translates as "using a sledge-hammer to crack a nut", but in bouldering lingo, you could translate it as "using one-armers monos to climb V5s" .

Which is precisely what Claudio is doing.

In reply to mctrials23:

I think there's a massive difference between "climbing to train" and "just climbing". I'm not really qualified to comment on whether a training plan that uses carefully planned bouldering sessions targeted at working on different sorts of strength, endurance and technique is better or worse than one that replaces some of the bouldering with fingerboard work, but it's going to be a lot better than what a lot of us do, namely turning up and randomly jumping between stuff our mates are working on, stuff we think we look cool on, stuff that will flatter us by suiting our style, stuff that doesn't have a massive queue and so on...

Anyway, I don't think finger strength is the OPs weakness. He's not climbing much harder than me, particularly outdoors, and I'm a fat bastard who couldn't get near one-armers or mono-pullups.

In reply to Cludzy Masta:

Where about do you train? maybe you could meet up with some of the people on here who might help out for free. I'm based in southampton.