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http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/dec/05/dave-whelan-wigan-chinese-c...
I can't help but see the irony in the groups campaigning for tolerance being so intolerant of a 78 year old man using language that was probably commonplace when he was younger, and without any malice. I feel sorry for him.
I can't help but see the irony in the groups campaigning for tolerance being so intolerant of a 78 year old man using language that was probably commonplace when he was younger, and without any malice. I feel sorry for him.
2
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
I do a bit, but at the same time, is it intolerant to say somebody is ignorant?
I do a bit, but at the same time, is it intolerant to say somebody is ignorant?
Post edited at 11:22
In reply to Timmd:
It depends how you do it. What's wrong with someone sitting down with him and explaining to him why they have an issue with those type of words and reaching some sort of shared understanding with each other? It doesn't have to be harsh condemnation, Twitter outrage (although what doesn't cause that?) and FA charges.
I bet he feels like I did the first time I tried to buy a sandwich in Subway - dazed and confused.
It depends how you do it. What's wrong with someone sitting down with him and explaining to him why they have an issue with those type of words and reaching some sort of shared understanding with each other? It doesn't have to be harsh condemnation, Twitter outrage (although what doesn't cause that?) and FA charges.
I bet he feels like I did the first time I tried to buy a sandwich in Subway - dazed and confused.
1
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
I do see what you mean, but I dare say the statement put out by the Chinese voluntary organisation was phrased in such a way as to represent any Chinese people who do find it offensive, and as a way of telling people who use chink that it isn't acceptable, ie if somebody in the public eye says something, the balance needs correcting by them being publicly corrected too?
It's just a ponder.
I do see what you mean, but I dare say the statement put out by the Chinese voluntary organisation was phrased in such a way as to represent any Chinese people who do find it offensive, and as a way of telling people who use chink that it isn't acceptable, ie if somebody in the public eye says something, the balance needs correcting by them being publicly corrected too?
It's just a ponder.
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
Why? Has he come back into the world after living in a cave licking moss all those years since his youth or does he work in a huge business with all the usual media training and doesnt appear to give a shit?
Why? Has he come back into the world after living in a cave licking moss all those years since his youth or does he work in a huge business with all the usual media training and doesnt appear to give a shit?
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
I do see your point. There is dark comedic value in his upset of one group whilst attempting to apologise to another.
Unfortunately due to his position he is not just someone's bigoted old grandad.
Someone needs to have a word, or not let him talk to anyone, ever.
I do see your point. There is dark comedic value in his upset of one group whilst attempting to apologise to another.
Unfortunately due to his position he is not just someone's bigoted old grandad.
Someone needs to have a word, or not let him talk to anyone, ever.
In reply to marsbar:
I see it as sad. The dark comedy is around the FA pretence. Imagine if a serious effort was made to remove racist, homophobic or similarly offensive remarks from the 'terraces'. It would make watching a live football match a joyful place where you could celebrate the sporting prowess (like many other stadium sports manage without too much effort) rather than being continually disgusted with way too many of the fans.
I see it as sad. The dark comedy is around the FA pretence. Imagine if a serious effort was made to remove racist, homophobic or similarly offensive remarks from the 'terraces'. It would make watching a live football match a joyful place where you could celebrate the sporting prowess (like many other stadium sports manage without too much effort) rather than being continually disgusted with way too many of the fans.
Post edited at 14:28
In reply to marsbar:
Does using old-fashioned language make him a "bigot"?
> I do see your point. There is dark comedic value in his upset of one group whilst attempting to apologise to another.
> Unfortunately due to his position he is not just someone's bigoted old grandad.
> Someone needs to have a word, or not let him talk to anyone, ever.
Does using old-fashioned language make him a "bigot"?
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/nov/20/wigan-dave-whelan-accused-a...
If one looks a little further, he looks like he could be approaching being a bigot.
> Does using old-fashioned language make him a "bigot"?
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/nov/20/wigan-dave-whelan-accused-a...
If one looks a little further, he looks like he could be approaching being a bigot.
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
Note I've said he looks like he could be approaching being one.
He rather seems to believe the Jewish stereo type in his first comments about Jews, though, about them being money grabbers (or words to that effect).
Note I've said he looks like he could be approaching being one.
He rather seems to believe the Jewish stereo type in his first comments about Jews, though, about them being money grabbers (or words to that effect).
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
After a night out we always stopped for a chinky on the way home.
I am sure we saw it as slang and certainly not offensive. If there had been takeaways owned by people originating from Newcastle, I expect we may have stopped for Geordie instead.
After a night out we always stopped for a chinky on the way home.
I am sure we saw it as slang and certainly not offensive. If there had been takeaways owned by people originating from Newcastle, I expect we may have stopped for Geordie instead.
4
In reply to earlsdonwhu:
I'm not really sure Chink and Paki are really comparable Geordie, Cockney and Scouser. Not doubt I'm a deluded PC fool.
I'm not really sure Chink and Paki are really comparable Geordie, Cockney and Scouser. Not doubt I'm a deluded PC fool.
1
In reply to The New NickB:
Chink sounds bad, but surely the P word is the same as calling a Britain a Brit?
> I'm not really sure Chink and Paki are really comparable Geordie, Cockney and Scouser. Not doubt I'm a deluded PC fool.
Chink sounds bad, but surely the P word is the same as calling a Britain a Brit?
1
In reply to Skol:
It is all so complex. Tony Greig et al used to routinely refer to Windies Aussies , Poms and Pakis. All were 'treated' equally.
Dagoes,Wops and Eyeties are pejorative slurs but Yanks is not. Where do Taffy, Paddy and Frogs fit on the spectrum? I am not worried about being a Rosbif. Do other languages have such complexities and nuances? Eg. Do the Vietnamese have terms for Cambodians which some find objectionable?
In many of the recent supposed controversies I have found it strange that ONE person perceiving some comment to be offensive means that it supposedly must be.This occurred to me in the context of the story about an objection to the alleged sexist comments made about Samantha the scorer in ' I'm sorry I haven't a clue'. Someone objected to what they took to be sexist innuendo so the BBC felt obliged to launch an expensive investigation.
It is all so complex. Tony Greig et al used to routinely refer to Windies Aussies , Poms and Pakis. All were 'treated' equally.
Dagoes,Wops and Eyeties are pejorative slurs but Yanks is not. Where do Taffy, Paddy and Frogs fit on the spectrum? I am not worried about being a Rosbif. Do other languages have such complexities and nuances? Eg. Do the Vietnamese have terms for Cambodians which some find objectionable?
In many of the recent supposed controversies I have found it strange that ONE person perceiving some comment to be offensive means that it supposedly must be.This occurred to me in the context of the story about an objection to the alleged sexist comments made about Samantha the scorer in ' I'm sorry I haven't a clue'. Someone objected to what they took to be sexist innuendo so the BBC felt obliged to launch an expensive investigation.
1
In reply to Skol:
You want to try telling that one to any brown skinned person of a certain age? If you had heard the nasty way that word was used you would understand. I dont think i heard of Brit bashing? I'm guessing you haven't been told to f off home you dirty Brit?
You want to try telling that one to any brown skinned person of a certain age? If you had heard the nasty way that word was used you would understand. I dont think i heard of Brit bashing? I'm guessing you haven't been told to f off home you dirty Brit?
In reply to marsbar:
Mmm. I'm old enough to understand the use of the P word by certain sections of the community. But, even Pakistanis use the p word to describe themselves?
Brit bashing. Have you never been to a European football match?
> You want to try telling that one to any brown skinned person of a certain age? If you had heard the nasty way that word was used you would understand. I dont think i heard of Brit bashing? I'm guessing you haven't been told to f off home you dirty Brit?
Mmm. I'm old enough to understand the use of the P word by certain sections of the community. But, even Pakistanis use the p word to describe themselves?
Brit bashing. Have you never been to a European football match?
1
In reply to Skol:
I told you, football, I know nothing.
As for the other I understand its called reclaiming I understand. Doesn't mean you get to say it.
I told you, football, I know nothing.
As for the other I understand its called reclaiming I understand. Doesn't mean you get to say it.
In reply to abseil:
It is. What about going for a c-----y though?
Surely this is accepted as part of an expanding vocabulary, based on multicultural integration? I once was asked by a woman at work, who was half Chinese, what I had for my tea last night. I replied 'a chinky'. She said was it nice? Yes, I replied. She didn't seem offended.
> 'Chink' is highly offensive, and unacceptable language.
It is. What about going for a c-----y though?
Surely this is accepted as part of an expanding vocabulary, based on multicultural integration? I once was asked by a woman at work, who was half Chinese, what I had for my tea last night. I replied 'a chinky'. She said was it nice? Yes, I replied. She didn't seem offended.
1
In reply to marsbar:
Says who ?
> I told you, football, I know nothing.
> As for the other I understand its called reclaiming I understand. Doesn't mean you get to say it.
Says who ?
In reply to earlsdonwhu:
People claiming offence are the most important people in society these days and their needs must be well catered for.
> In many of the recent supposed controversies I have found it strange that ONE person perceiving some comment to be offensive means that it supposedly must be.This occurred to me in the context of the story about an objection to the alleged sexist comments made about Samantha the scorer in ' I'm sorry I haven't a clue'. Someone objected to what they took to be sexist innuendo so the BBC felt obliged to launch an expensive investigation.
People claiming offence are the most important people in society these days and their needs must be well catered for.
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
Of course he's a bigot, if he was not entirely complimentary of a non-white group he's a bigot, ask any Paddy, Taff or Jock.
Of course he's a bigot, if he was not entirely complimentary of a non-white group he's a bigot, ask any Paddy, Taff or Jock.
1
In reply to Skol:
Says the people who are reclaiming the label (which is used by others to identify them in a pejorative way).
I guess the reason others can't use said labels is because of the negative baggage which goes with them...
> Says who ?
Says the people who are reclaiming the label (which is used by others to identify them in a pejorative way).
I guess the reason others can't use said labels is because of the negative baggage which goes with them...
In reply to stroppygob:
What's race got to do with anything? The Irish have been discriminated against in the past, bigotry can take many forms.
I'm not sure if I get your point.
> Of course he's a bigot, if he was not entirely complimentary of a non-white group he's a bigot, ask any Paddy, Taff or Jock.
What's race got to do with anything? The Irish have been discriminated against in the past, bigotry can take many forms.
I'm not sure if I get your point.
Post edited at 03:27
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
OK, sorry, I didn't provide any details. I will rephrase my post: 'Chink' is highly offensive, and unacceptable language to the very large number of Chinese people I know.
> (In reply to abseil)
>
> Is it? Who decides these things? I didn't get the memo.
>
> Is it? Who decides these things? I didn't get the memo.
OK, sorry, I didn't provide any details. I will rephrase my post: 'Chink' is highly offensive, and unacceptable language to the very large number of Chinese people I know.
Post edited at 19:08
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
My question is either why the hell hasn't someone already done that, or have they and why didn't he listen and what next?
Several people including me tried to have a similar conversation with my ex father in law. It was impossible. He kept saying that he has a black friend (which is true) and just couldn't or wouldn't see that anything he said was offensive.
I'm not saying all old people are like this, but a number are quite stuck in their ways and won't be told.
Its difficult.
My question is either why the hell hasn't someone already done that, or have they and why didn't he listen and what next?
Several people including me tried to have a similar conversation with my ex father in law. It was impossible. He kept saying that he has a black friend (which is true) and just couldn't or wouldn't see that anything he said was offensive.
I'm not saying all old people are like this, but a number are quite stuck in their ways and won't be told.
Its difficult.
Post edited at 20:28
In reply to marsbar:
He may well have a stubborn streak; he may look around him and think the world's gone mad. He was born just before WWII and grew up in a world where 6 million Jews were slaughtered. I think, just trying to see it from his point of view, that saying that Jews like chasing money (which I would imagine is something he can relate to as a very successful businessman) is not something he could imagine causing a lot of fuss. We do after all, live in a world where an old bloke using the word "Chinky" generates the same amount of outrage as an airliner getting blown up over Ukraine.
I do think that the lack of tolerance shown to someone who is clearly struggling to adapt to the modern world is ironic.
He may well have a stubborn streak; he may look around him and think the world's gone mad. He was born just before WWII and grew up in a world where 6 million Jews were slaughtered. I think, just trying to see it from his point of view, that saying that Jews like chasing money (which I would imagine is something he can relate to as a very successful businessman) is not something he could imagine causing a lot of fuss. We do after all, live in a world where an old bloke using the word "Chinky" generates the same amount of outrage as an airliner getting blown up over Ukraine.
I do think that the lack of tolerance shown to someone who is clearly struggling to adapt to the modern world is ironic.
1
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
He's an old dinosaur.. Caught behind the curve, a chinky was a Chinese takeaway in the NW for many years. He's just the typical unpc old pensioner.. The FA really do pick their battles...
He's an old dinosaur.. Caught behind the curve, a chinky was a Chinese takeaway in the NW for many years. He's just the typical unpc old pensioner.. The FA really do pick their battles...
In reply to IainRUK:
What is wrong with all of you. He is not a sad grandad who has escaped from a bubble he is a buisness leader surrounded by all the modern control freakery on media interaction and full advice on the most up to date issues around football and racism that come with the role. He has to have made a decision to do this 'his way'.
What is wrong with all of you. He is not a sad grandad who has escaped from a bubble he is a buisness leader surrounded by all the modern control freakery on media interaction and full advice on the most up to date issues around football and racism that come with the role. He has to have made a decision to do this 'his way'.
In reply to Offwidth:
idiots like you...
yes he's made mistakes, he's both.
People like you drive UKIP forwards.. you just love to alienate and divide...
idiots like you...
yes he's made mistakes, he's both.
People like you drive UKIP forwards.. you just love to alienate and divide...
In reply to Malcolm Tucker's Sweary Aunt:
Does anyone else remember him being interviewed by Stuart Hall a few years ago on the last day of the season. Hall always referred to Wigan as the 'People's republic of Wigan' and they sang 'The Red flag' together.
If it wasn't true you couldn't make it up.
Does anyone else remember him being interviewed by Stuart Hall a few years ago on the last day of the season. Hall always referred to Wigan as the 'People's republic of Wigan' and they sang 'The Red flag' together.
If it wasn't true you couldn't make it up.
In reply to wbo:
Neither of them strike me as Socialists, I know for a fact Hall isn't, although I'm led to believe Hall's honesty may have been brought in to question in recent years.
Edit: Whelan is a Tory supporter, given them over £1m apparently, so probably not a socialist either.
> Does anyone else remember him being interviewed by Stuart Hall a few years ago on the last day of the season. Hall always referred to Wigan as the 'People's republic of Wigan' and they sang 'The Red flag' together.
> If it wasn't true you couldn't make it up.
Neither of them strike me as Socialists, I know for a fact Hall isn't, although I'm led to believe Hall's honesty may have been brought in to question in recent years.
Edit: Whelan is a Tory supporter, given them over £1m apparently, so probably not a socialist either.
Post edited at 09:17
In reply to IainRUK:
Play the argument not the man. I'm relatively tolerant of old folk not exposed to the modern politics of race. Whelan simply isnt in that situation and should be more responsible personally for a man in his position and stop doing reputation damage to the organisations he is involved with. Calling such people out has through modern history done the exact opposite of encouraging UKIP it directly questions the ' I'm not racist but ...' nonsense. So I have faith that most ordinary folk when they think about it will continue to see the issue and change the argument to something more sensible and recognise snake oil salesman for what they are.
Play the argument not the man. I'm relatively tolerant of old folk not exposed to the modern politics of race. Whelan simply isnt in that situation and should be more responsible personally for a man in his position and stop doing reputation damage to the organisations he is involved with. Calling such people out has through modern history done the exact opposite of encouraging UKIP it directly questions the ' I'm not racist but ...' nonsense. So I have faith that most ordinary folk when they think about it will continue to see the issue and change the argument to something more sensible and recognise snake oil salesman for what they are.
Post edited at 14:52
In reply to Offwidth: Yup, Whelan is a wily old fox and is stoking the fire for whatever reasons he has. I grew up in Wigan and find this'old man out of touch with the modern world' portrayal laughable.
In reply to Offwidth:
Ae you for real?
You just accused us of having something wrong with us for daring to disagree with you...
Then get all precious that I responded that you were an idiot?? Pathetic.
> Play the argument not the man.
Ae you for real?
You just accused us of having something wrong with us for daring to disagree with you...
Then get all precious that I responded that you were an idiot?? Pathetic.
Post edited at 15:16
In reply to Mike Stretford:
You are totally ignoring the fact that people change with age, early onset dementia, losing boundaries..
He's wrong, he's out of order but he's also an old man out of touch..
In football we have former England captains abusing each other and their families, racist tweets, huge corruption, horrifically poor refereeing.. and tis is the big story...
> Yup, Whelan is a wily old fox and is stoking the fire for whatever reasons he has. I grew up in Wigan and find this'old man out of touch with the modern world' portrayal laughable.
You are totally ignoring the fact that people change with age, early onset dementia, losing boundaries..
He's wrong, he's out of order but he's also an old man out of touch..
In football we have former England captains abusing each other and their families, racist tweets, huge corruption, horrifically poor refereeing.. and tis is the big story...
1
In reply to IainRUK:
Nope, it's a thread on UKC you seem to be getting too worked up about.
> and tis is the big story...
Nope, it's a thread on UKC you seem to be getting too worked up about.
In reply to IainRUK:
You seem to have taken a sigh of exasperation as a personal insult.
Regarding the FA and Whelan, he is the Chairman of a football club, they have an obligation under their own rules to act.
You seem to have taken a sigh of exasperation as a personal insult.
Regarding the FA and Whelan, he is the Chairman of a football club, they have an obligation under their own rules to act.
In reply to IainRUK:
I argued with the designation of him as somehow possibly being in a situation where he wouldnt have been told many many times of the importance of what he says publicly (and where he should be careful and maybe not answer). He is not a dinosaur unless the governance in the organisations around him have failed completely. Each wrong needs tackling on its own and aside from (inevitable) referees mistakes, yes the other faults you list in football are more important.
I argued with the designation of him as somehow possibly being in a situation where he wouldnt have been told many many times of the importance of what he says publicly (and where he should be careful and maybe not answer). He is not a dinosaur unless the governance in the organisations around him have failed completely. Each wrong needs tackling on its own and aside from (inevitable) referees mistakes, yes the other faults you list in football are more important.
Post edited at 15:36
In reply to IainRUK:
It's a bit disingenuous to portray the Chief Executive of a Premier League club with some throwback old geezer down the CIU, whippet and Racing Post in hand.
He's not so daft that he's still trying to run rings around the FCA over some previous share dealing and financial shenanigans.
He knows exactly what he is doing - and he's looking to pick a fight.
It's a bit disingenuous to portray the Chief Executive of a Premier League club with some throwback old geezer down the CIU, whippet and Racing Post in hand.
He's not so daft that he's still trying to run rings around the FCA over some previous share dealing and financial shenanigans.
He knows exactly what he is doing - and he's looking to pick a fight.
In reply to Mike Stretford:
I'm not worked up at all.. anymore than you are.. I just think its pathetic how everyone is up in arms about an 80 year old using a term like Chinky.. it can be offensive but for 60-70 years of his life it was the term for the takeaway.. he's the typical old age pensioner in that area.. unpc and outspoken with potentially early signs of dementia which reduces their boundaries and brings out these statements..
The fact this is rumbling on is just the typical spineless FA.. allowing things to simmer on for months an dragging up more and more rubbish.. give him a fine, get him in some training course, move on..
Look at the Terry issue, almost a year..
The FA are an absolute disgrace, they moan about FIFA but they are just a smaller version, possibly less criminal, but equally corrupt and inconsistent.
They have been this way for decades.
The words and breath wasted on this issue is quite frankly an embarrassment... in a sport suffering from play acting, diving, performance enhancing drugs, severe racism, incompetent refereeing, bribes and huge financial mismanagement this has received more words on UKC than almost any soccer subject in UKC in months..
I'm not worked up at all.. anymore than you are.. I just think its pathetic how everyone is up in arms about an 80 year old using a term like Chinky.. it can be offensive but for 60-70 years of his life it was the term for the takeaway.. he's the typical old age pensioner in that area.. unpc and outspoken with potentially early signs of dementia which reduces their boundaries and brings out these statements..
The fact this is rumbling on is just the typical spineless FA.. allowing things to simmer on for months an dragging up more and more rubbish.. give him a fine, get him in some training course, move on..
Look at the Terry issue, almost a year..
The FA are an absolute disgrace, they moan about FIFA but they are just a smaller version, possibly less criminal, but equally corrupt and inconsistent.
They have been this way for decades.
The words and breath wasted on this issue is quite frankly an embarrassment... in a sport suffering from play acting, diving, performance enhancing drugs, severe racism, incompetent refereeing, bribes and huge financial mismanagement this has received more words on UKC than almost any soccer subject in UKC in months..
In reply to IainRUK:
Apart from the Ched Evans thread....
Anyhow, you've gone native. It's still called Football over here.
> The words and breath wasted on this issue is quite frankly an embarrassment... in a sport suffering from play acting, diving, performance enhancing drugs, severe racism, incompetent refereeing, bribes and huge financial mismanagement this has received more words on UKC than almost any soccer subject in UKC in months..
Apart from the Ched Evans thread....
Anyhow, you've gone native. It's still called Football over here.
In reply to Nevis-the-cat:
Or the FIFA corruption thread, or the England vs Scotland game, or should Wayne Rooney be England captain. I could probably go on.
> Apart from the Ched Evans thread....
Or the FIFA corruption thread, or the England vs Scotland game, or should Wayne Rooney be England captain. I could probably go on.
In reply to IainRUK:
No. More to the point, this is a fairly minor news story, as it's profile in the media suggests, but it is a legitimate story. It's only on UKC, because someone, it seems supporting Whelan, started the thread. UKC would be very quiet if we only commented on things that were the single biggest issue in the world at that time.
> so months ago...
No. More to the point, this is a fairly minor news story, as it's profile in the media suggests, but it is a legitimate story. It's only on UKC, because someone, it seems supporting Whelan, started the thread. UKC would be very quiet if we only commented on things that were the single biggest issue in the world at that time.
In reply to The New NickB:
I know.. but at the moment the FA and others.. are focusing on this..
We have huge huge racism issues, a player banned for reacting to racist fans..
Black players have been what 30-40% of england players.. and yet no coaches..
Des Walker, Paul Ince, Sol Campbell, John Barnes, Les Ferdinand, Cole, Cole, Parker..
Plenty of top level clever footballers yet never retained in the english system as coaches.. very very few black managers.
I'm not a fan of positive discrimination but it has to change so 'd welcome the rooney role and bringing them in.
An old guy using an unpc term changes nothing...
Getting black players into positions of authority and trust will...
in NZ the no. 10 for the maori's is often a pakeha.. like NFL quarter backs tend to be white guys.. in soccer management and coaches are white guys..
I'm not sure the view still is that the black players lack the intelligence but they are hardly dispelling the myth..
It was actually a reason for justifying slavery, it's in the mismeasure of man by Gould (superb book) how slavery was right because it prevented overly emotive black people from harming themselves...
And in sport we still see it.. not quite the same, but a lack of trust.. and it runs deep in most sports even in athletics.
70% of NFL players are black.. who's the star man?
Brady? Manning? White guys.. only 20% of NFL quarter backs are black.
And it was very few coaches until the rooney rule.
I alway thought it would change naturally, ironically due to Atkinson et al who progressed black players at West Brom, but those players, now common in the national teams and in the EPL are not continuing on.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/sol-campbell-wrong-england-capt...
The underlying idea is right..
This needs to change.. that's what the FA and everyone need to focus on across the sports.. 4-5 years ago I was quite proud in telling people that racism was a thing of the past in the UK.. we didn't experience it growing up in multi-racial schools. I remember being dragged in front of the head for a fight with this lad and the teachers were trying to make it a race issue.. I hit him because I didn't like him.. he hit me because he didn't like me.. we actually became friends afterwards we found it so funny.. but the school were always trying to pick up racism.. which we never saw, we were just lads fighting on a playground. I left school pretty confident we'd moved on but we haven't.
it's still a huge factor is sport.
I know.. but at the moment the FA and others.. are focusing on this..
We have huge huge racism issues, a player banned for reacting to racist fans..
Black players have been what 30-40% of england players.. and yet no coaches..
Des Walker, Paul Ince, Sol Campbell, John Barnes, Les Ferdinand, Cole, Cole, Parker..
Plenty of top level clever footballers yet never retained in the english system as coaches.. very very few black managers.
I'm not a fan of positive discrimination but it has to change so 'd welcome the rooney role and bringing them in.
An old guy using an unpc term changes nothing...
Getting black players into positions of authority and trust will...
in NZ the no. 10 for the maori's is often a pakeha.. like NFL quarter backs tend to be white guys.. in soccer management and coaches are white guys..
I'm not sure the view still is that the black players lack the intelligence but they are hardly dispelling the myth..
It was actually a reason for justifying slavery, it's in the mismeasure of man by Gould (superb book) how slavery was right because it prevented overly emotive black people from harming themselves...
And in sport we still see it.. not quite the same, but a lack of trust.. and it runs deep in most sports even in athletics.
70% of NFL players are black.. who's the star man?
Brady? Manning? White guys.. only 20% of NFL quarter backs are black.
And it was very few coaches until the rooney rule.
I alway thought it would change naturally, ironically due to Atkinson et al who progressed black players at West Brom, but those players, now common in the national teams and in the EPL are not continuing on.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/sol-campbell-wrong-england-capt...
The underlying idea is right..
This needs to change.. that's what the FA and everyone need to focus on across the sports.. 4-5 years ago I was quite proud in telling people that racism was a thing of the past in the UK.. we didn't experience it growing up in multi-racial schools. I remember being dragged in front of the head for a fight with this lad and the teachers were trying to make it a race issue.. I hit him because I didn't like him.. he hit me because he didn't like me.. we actually became friends afterwards we found it so funny.. but the school were always trying to pick up racism.. which we never saw, we were just lads fighting on a playground. I left school pretty confident we'd moved on but we haven't.
it's still a huge factor is sport.
In reply to IainRUK:
You are right that the racial bias in football is cultural. It is simply not remotely possible that past black players and coaching trainees lack talent so much that the scandalous position of so few black coaches could possibly exist by chance. You are right that even more seriously racism is still an issue in and around the game. You are right that way too little is done by the FA to deal with these problems. Yet you don't make progress on changing the culture by ignoring figureheads like Whelan putting their foot in their mouth (despite the increasing emphasis on obvious problems in the sport) . Sure the FA are open to accusations of hypocrisy but if they did nothing they would be even more out of step with the modern world (I can't think of any examples elsewhere of leaders of organisations saying similar stupid things without similar or stonger censure). Old and oldish white men run football, their attitude is exactly the problem.
You are right that the racial bias in football is cultural. It is simply not remotely possible that past black players and coaching trainees lack talent so much that the scandalous position of so few black coaches could possibly exist by chance. You are right that even more seriously racism is still an issue in and around the game. You are right that way too little is done by the FA to deal with these problems. Yet you don't make progress on changing the culture by ignoring figureheads like Whelan putting their foot in their mouth (despite the increasing emphasis on obvious problems in the sport) . Sure the FA are open to accusations of hypocrisy but if they did nothing they would be even more out of step with the modern world (I can't think of any examples elsewhere of leaders of organisations saying similar stupid things without similar or stonger censure). Old and oldish white men run football, their attitude is exactly the problem.
In reply to IainRUK:
Not really true in NZ. All players in the Maori team have to be of Maori heritage. Aaron Cruden (current AB no.10), Luke Mcallister (recent AB no.10) are both Maoris, and Dan Carter has Polynesian heritage. Those are just the ones that spring to mind.
> in NZ the no. 10 for the maori's is often a pakeha.. like NFL quarter backs tend to be white guys.. in soccer management and coaches are white guys..
Not really true in NZ. All players in the Maori team have to be of Maori heritage. Aaron Cruden (current AB no.10), Luke Mcallister (recent AB no.10) are both Maoris, and Dan Carter has Polynesian heritage. Those are just the ones that spring to mind.
Post edited at 09:29
In reply to Postmanpat:
Didn't think carter was, when I lived there I was told that the ABs tend to play white 10s..
But you certainly see it in the NFL
Didn't think carter was, when I lived there I was told that the ABs tend to play white 10s..
But you certainly see it in the NFL
In reply to IainRUK:
There were 9 starting QB's from 32 in the NFL some weeks in 2013...a quarter black already and the number increases every year as the best college talent feeds in.
There were 9 starting QB's from 32 in the NFL some weeks in 2013...a quarter black already and the number increases every year as the best college talent feeds in.
In reply to IainRUK:
But having said all that, I'm guessing you'd find a lot more Maori centres than stand offs!
> Didn't think carter was, when I lived there I was told that the ABs tend to play white 10s..
>
Carter (apparently) has some Tahitian heritage although sometimes this is referred to as "Maori". Carlos Spencer also played for the NZ Maoris.But having said all that, I'm guessing you'd find a lot more Maori centres than stand offs!
In reply to Offwidth:
You can't play nfl without college I don't think.. It's still a big decrease like in soccer, few black captains.. Few lack coaches.. The lack of any black ex players in the England fa set up is pretty startling..
You can't play nfl without college I don't think.. It's still a big decrease like in soccer, few black captains.. Few lack coaches.. The lack of any black ex players in the England fa set up is pretty startling..
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