UKC

Hey all,

I've currently got a full summer rack, as well as crampons and a 55cm dmm walking axe. I lead up to VS outdoors, have done a good amount of mountain walking and am thinking of trying some winter routes in Scotland at low grades, maybe some I or II gullies around the Ben. I've read some articles on winter gear and reckon I'll be alright with belays (I can do buried axe, bucket seat belays etc) but am not really sure about a few specifics, I basically just want to convert my summer rack to a simple winter rack.

So, a few questions:
- At what grade do you bring a pair of ice tools as opposed to a single axe?
- What length and how many ice screws would you bring for a grade I/II climb?
- What length rope do you take?

Not sure if I'll go this year or next but just curious!

Thanks for any help,
John-William

In reply to jwhepper:

III ish - but its a very personal thing.


If you're climbing a snow gully - none. You'll probably only be able to place a bit of rock pro in the gully sides, unles you have snow stakes (which aren't worth the faff). Quite often in a gully you'll find your only gear are the belays.


As long as possible (so 60 m, same as for summer trad). Although I tend to solo easy gullies, as do many people.


Go this year! You seem to have the right idea about getting clued up and starting easy. It's also worth doing some reading up about avalanches/cornices (there is the MLT endorsed winter book, or another called A Chance in a Million which will teach you loads) beforehand. Remeber, if the locals are heading down/staying at home, do the same. Read up on conditions here before you go.

I'm sure someone will come along to tell you to book a day with a guide, but if you and your partner:
a) are experienced in the mountains in summer (including climbing/scrambling);
b) educate yourself;
c) stay in your comfot zone
then you'll be fine. Seemed to work for me anyway.

And take a look at the avalanche forecast (Google SAIS, tries to post a link but it didn't work).

In reply to ianstevens:

Cheers for the quick reply!

I've done a decent amount of summer walking and a two day beginners walking course followed by a two day mountaineering course so I'm pretty confident in crampons and with self arresting.

Currently got a 70m but fear that will be too long, great for sport climbing in Provence but I can barely coil the thing over my shoulders! Might invest in a 50ish metre rope and go at it this year then, I've got two full sets of nuts and a few hexes...

Is this the book you mean?:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Winter-Skills-Essential-Climbing-Techniques/dp/0954...

In reply to jwhepper:

Grade I can vary a lot, but by the top of the grade, I'd say it's considerably easier with a pair of tools than a single axe. Not essential, but much easier!

Mind you, I get very cold on winter belays, so tend to simply solo easier routes (and avoid anything harder) - so for me, the best ploy is to take two ice tools on easier routes, and not worry about ice screws, etc (would usually have a short scrambling rope and perhaps a small amount of gear if I was soloing alongside someone else, so giving the option to stop and pitch a harder step)

In reply to jwhepper:

I climbed for a season with no ice screws, just a summer rack and a warthog, up to grade II. Did have to bypass an icey pitch once I think. If you do buy an ice screw don't get a long one for Scotland.

As you get more confident you'll probably be happy climbing grade II gullies with only one axe, but should probably carry two initially just in case.

If you're climbing a snow gully with no gear, it is worth asking whether it is safer to solo. But sometimes you can happily solo the whole route except the last 10m through the cornice. I used 50m ropes on the Ben once and regretted not having the extra 10m... Also climbed with 70m single, its heavier but won't kill you. I usually use 60m half ropes for winter though.

Go this season! Go tomorrow! Never delay if you can go today!

In reply to jwhepper:

Also bring plenty of slings. In winter gullies almost all of my draws are 60cm slings tripled up.

In reply to jwhepper:
in my experience two axes in a II gulley will usually make your life easier but on II ridges, one is usually enough.

wouldn't worry about ice screws for now, slings, nuts and hexes will serve you well though. as you go out more keep an eye on what your are getting the most use out of and what other patries are using.

don't really see a problem with a 70m rope especially if you are pitching a lot, gives you a good bit extra on abseils too whitch are more common than in summer.

Deciding which routes will be safest and most enjoyable under the given conditions is one of the most important things, reading conditions and avalanche reports is a really good idea.

In reply to jwhepper:

Plenty of good sense already contributed. I'd endorse the 60m rope length. Pretty much every pitch I did last year seemed to be about 52m!!

If you're leading VS you'll be leading grade III pretty quickly and you can get by on that mostly with rock gear. Take two sets of wires in sizes 1-8, some larger wires and some torque nuts or hexes. Slingdraws are better than QDs and have a couple of longer slings to spare for spikes and threads.

Do not expect to be able to place gear as readily as you can on a typical VS. Consequently, never climb past any available pro without using it!!

In reply to BnB:

>never climb past any available pro without using it!!

Possibly the best advice on this thread. Haha.

In reply to jwhepper:

Not a problem.

And yes it is. Even if you where to know everything in it, it's a useful reference guide anyways. If you're a BMC member I think you can buy it from them cheaper than you can from Amazon.

In reply to jwhepper:

To do grade I & II you can manage reasonably easily with one axe, but two will certainly make it easier on some II's if they have longer steeper bits. Until around the 1960's most climbers still used only one axe often cutting steps up steeper bits. Its good practice anyway to use one axe rather than always having to rely on two. Then if one day your out walking in winter with just the one axe you know you'll be able to cope with almost any eventuality you come across.

As others have said you do not need ice screws - you'll nearly always be able to belay on the side walls in gullies and even if there is ice in the gully its still saver to put an anchor/runner in rock.

Rack? I'd use or take two or three slings and a couple of larger nuts/hex's or whatever you've got. You've normally got loads of choices to use as belays. You may aswell go after the biggest cracks you can find. The smaller ones may well be covered in snow anyway.

Speed is quite important so you'll find you don't want to faff around for ages belaying every few feet of the way like you'd do for a rock climb.

So go this year. !!

In reply to jwhepper:

He may mean that one but the avalanche specific one is this:

http://www.smc.org.uk/publications/?ID=30

although the book you link to looks v.good too

Wow, lot of confidence on here re going at grade II with one axe. Lochnagar used to be my local crag and I think it would be exceptionally sporting to lead or solo routes like Crumbling Cranny, Pinnacle Gully 2 and Forsaken Gully (in typical conditions) with just one axe.

Far better to have two axes where there is any likelihood of encountering steep unconsolidated snow, very typical on Scottish exits mid season. Whilst you could probably romp a classic ridge like the Aonach Eagach in average conditions with only one tool, I would always favour two going onto classic snow/ice gullies.

Have fun.

In reply to Ghastlyrabbitfat:

2 axes gives more options, especially when the gully steepens to the cornice. If you need to cut through the cornice, you'll be thankful for 1 placed and one to cut with.

The one bit of gear I would recommend for easy Ben Nevis snow gullies would be a deadman. Every winter there is a (heated/involved) debate on UKC about whether they are worth the weight or not; but I have to say, everytime I have placed a deadman I have been thankful for it. Some folk advocate buried axes in the belays and then borrow your mates axes to lead the next pitch, but when you are just beneath a cornice which looks bigger than it did from 200m lower, it's good to have a bit of gear that can be placed in the snow slope just below.

In reply to cannichoutdoors:

Having experimented quite a bit with snow belays (winter ML and twenty years MRT), although I often carried a deadman many years ago, it wasn't used that often. The problem is that when needed, it is often difficult to place at the correct angle, critical for holding power. Unless you fall on it, you are not going to know if it's placed correctly. When placed in a teaching scenario I have seen plenty pull out when loaded.

A few years back we did some work with snow stakes and the results were very surprising. When buried in a similar manner to a horizontal axe belay, they proved incredibly difficult to pull out under load. And I'm talkin two or three hairy arsed guys bouncing on the rope.... Even when buried quickly and in relatively shallow snow, they held well. As with a deadman, important to extend well from the attachment point.

There is some good research online.

Like a deadman, a little awkward to carry, but if you have a 40/50 litre sack with wand pockets/ compression straps, not unmanageable. Hope this helps.

In reply to jwhepper:
Winter rack for grade I/II climbs

Spare gloves, food, head torch, flask, spare gloves again, avalanche and weather forecast, something you can eat when frozen, belay jacket

In reply to jwhepper:

Always 2 axes. Cornices, tricky steps (early season 2's can have really awkward steps), belays (imagine burying your only axe as a belay and down climbing to your bucket seat below without an axe in your hand) and the scenario 'our route looks busy so lets do a slightly harder one nearby'...........all best with 2.

In reply to jwhepper:

I'd get a technical hammer to go with your walking axe (a walking length axe is really useful on ridges in particular). As others have said here Grade I routes often end up as grade II/III with the cornice and two axes will be very useful in such situations. You don't need ice screws but a warthog or two might be useful for a more versatile piece that will go in ice or frozen turf. Deadmen are very marmite and need the skills to place properly or they will be useless (in an emergency situation wher a deadman might be considered - like no good runner or belay under a cornice - remember you can use your rucksac as a runner...in a T-pit with a sling looped round it like a buried axe anchor). A long rope is good: 50m too often leaves you wishing you could reach that lovely belay just 5-10m above. Reserve a set of nuts/hexs for winter as they get bashed and frayed (always tap in winter pro to ensure its bedded well). Take loads of slings for long extension and belays; any sports style sewn extender is pretty useless compared to long sling extender. Do not place a runner every time you see one as you will end up pointlessly lacing easy grade I terrain but if things look like they are getting harder do place a runner at any sensible opportunity.

In reply to BnB:

I'd agree, if you're leading VS you will be pretty steady at grade III moves quite quickly. I'm steady at 4b and 4c trad moves and have found IV,5 pretty steady with the climbing I've done so far this season. Not that i'm saying that should be your first port of call, its good to start easy and work up! Once you get steady on your feet with crampons and using axes, you might get fed up of pitching grade I ground, especially if you are used to moves at VS and above.

With gear, 60m ropes are really handy. I take a set of 18 nuts. Set of various BD stoppers with some Walnuts here and there, set of Hexes, 6 extender quickdraws and 4 shorter length ones, although with a single rope you might want more 60cm extenders. Couple of 120cm slings with locking krabs and a 240cm sling, again with a locker.

Don't take lots of locking krabs for belays, two snap gates and a small locker is my belay building kit, and 2 HMS's when using the rope for belays.

In reply to Nath93:

Your rack needs loads more long slings.

In reply to Offwidth:
Partner generally brings along a 120cm sling anyway, and a 240cm if we aren't swapping leads. Depends on the route but won't carry much more than 3 or 4 120cm slings, but can get away with two as I have the 240cm for building belays (or the rope).

In reply to jwhepper:
If you have a view to progressing to easy alpine stuff then better soloing grade I/II now (1 axe, no rack).

In reply to Nath93:

Seriously even that is on the low side. I think my record requirement was 10 slings on a long complex mixed pitch including spikes, a natural thread, long extension to cut drag, and one on the pitch start belay (one of the 10 was the belay clip sling I had to take off the top-loop of my rucksack and another was a 'sling' manufactured from all my remaining extenders, as we only carried 8 as a pair). You don't want to be using much rope on the belay as in my experience you may often need the stretch. I've never used more than 6 extenders (I can use the slings or roped hexes if I run out) nor needed more than a standard rack of nuts/hexs. Thats mainly climbing upto IV with the occasional V.

In reply to Offwidth:

Food for thought, always good to get hear about other folks gear. Might add a few more 120's to the rack, also carry a 6m cordellette for building belays as well so frees up some more gear for use on the pitch. Each to their own though.

Cheers!

In reply to jwhepper:

Never climb past a good belay.

In reply to jwhepper:

Wow wasn't expecting that many great replies this is all so useful! Getting a winter skills book for Christmas and thinking of heading to the cairngorms and possibly glen coe too.

Cheers everyone for the help, can't wait to get out there now. Seriously excited!!

In reply to Nath93:

Hi Nath. Second the cordelette for ease of belay construction. Can't say I've ever thought to bring ten 120s but definitely a few. Good to see you're getting out already matey

In reply to Nath93:


http://www.decathlon.co.uk/dyneema-sling-6mm-id_8003876.html

weigh nothing

In reply to jwhepper:

"Ten slings"??? - the OP is talking about grade I / II !!!

"Two axes" - on "Classic gullies" Come on boys read your books/guides!!. All the classic gullies were originally climbed with one axe. And quite often with nailed boots because crampons weren't really common in those days. Even Messner started off with one axe.

I could give my gandma a pair of crampons and two ice axes and she'd have got up most grade one and twos!!

In reply to John Kelly:

Got to buy and add karabiners to them though, either snap gates or lockers. All adds up!

In reply to BnB:

Looking forward to a few days out this winter mate, get some good stuff done. Hopefully on the sunny isle as well!

In reply to Ghastlyrabbitfat: That was some good advice about snowstakes. Just in case the OP are anyone else wants to act on it, I've still got two unused MSR 3' snowstakes for sale

As regards the issue of what rack to take, for easy routes whether summer scrambles or Winter grade IIs, I carry about the same - five wires, two hexes, half a dozen slings c/w krabs, a few extra wiregates. The only difference in Winter is that if I thought deep snow or cornices might be an issue I'd possibly add a snow anchor.

To be honest, I probably carry the same on loads of harder routes but even grade IIIs can sometimes be a real challenge (and dead scary) especially in poor conditions. As such I'd certainly never criticisize someone new to Winter climbing who is moving up to grade III for covering all the bases with some short screws, hammered gear (hooks, warthogs, pitons) plus a full range of chocks and extenders.

Everyone needs to start somewhere and in a lot of ways it makes sense to learn how to use Winter specific gear on easy routes where it probably isn't essential rather than on the crux of something rather more serious.

In reply to Nath93:

In the good old days they would untie the rope thread it through the sling and retie, all one handed , you could buy biner 19g, very close to nothing, could alternatively, ditch a draw
I think slings are lightest pro I've got

In reply to John Kelly:



I prefer thicker slings. They are easier to untie and less prone to damage from pointy things. Personal preference.

In reply to NottsRich:

i've abused mine and they are fine, they are rated at 22kn so they are twice as strong as wires (they could be 3mm and they would still work) but the killer app is they will sit on really small spikes when thicker slings will not, they allow you to find more protection when out climbing - even if you prefer thicker slings for more mundane tasks you are missing a trick not adding skinny slings to your rack (60cm best for pro) - don't get your knotting problem

In reply to John Kelly:

Tie an overhand into the sling, add some snow and ice, hang on it, and then try to undo it. On a thicker sling I'm comfortable using the point of a pick to help undo knots, but as I said I'm less happy doing that on thinner slings. I'm not questioning their tensile strength at all.

Sure, they've got a use for extenders on slingdraws, but I prefer 8,10,12mm instead as I find them easier to fiddle with while wearing gloves. That would change on an alpine route, but I think we're talking about Scotland at the moment?

In reply to NottsRich:

I'm not generally hanging off slings(except when i'm pretending to lead) so doesn't really come up for me too often - never been a problem - i'm a pretty untidy person so if i had a knot in a sling i would just count that as 2 short slings instead

In reply to NottsRich:

You have in the past hung on a 6mm Dyneema sling in winter mate. I might have a photo somewhere to prove it. =P

In reply to Bob_the_Builder:

but did he untie it?

In reply to John Kelly:

Probably not. With me thrashing about on the belay anybody sane would try to get away from there as soon as possible. =D

In reply to Dave Perry:

I think the slings number is OTT, but not the 2 axes. I can honestly say I would have shat myself on plenty of grade 2's without 2 axes. Manageable: 'yes', Recommendable: 'no'. I have also done stacks of grade 4 mixed cruxes with no axes, so its never that clear cut.

Ian Parnell says 2 axes essential at grade 2

http://www.planetfear.com/articles/British_Winter_Climbing_Part_1__126.html

In reply to Dave Perry:

I think the slings number is OTT, but not the 2 axes. I can honestly say I would have shat myself on plenty of grade 2's without 2 axes. Manageable: 'yes', Recommendable: 'no'. I have also done stacks of grade 4 mixed cruxes with no axes, so its never that clear cut.

Ian Parnell says 2 axes essential at grade 2

http://www.planetfear.com/articles/British_Winter_Climbing_Part_1__126.html

In reply to Bob_the_Builder:

like

In reply to mick taylor:

I'm not disagreeing with what is generally accepted now. I know just about everyone now uses two axes.

What I said is that prior to the 1960s one axe was normal. And the winter grades done with one axe were certainly grade II and indeed many of the best winter climbers got into grade III/IV - These were the 'classic' winter climbs of their times - and many still are.

When I first started winter climbing in the 1970;s you would have been laughed at if you'd turned up at a grade I gully with two axes!!

I've been reading this thread with some interest as i'm just considering buy a pair of axes for Scottish winter apine use.

Any obvious recommendations that spring to mind: Quarks, Switch, Apex or Fly's? There is plenty on offer but its hard to distinguish between them all. Looking at tackling Scottish routes up to Grade 3 this winter hopefully.

Any advice appreciated.

Matt

In reply to Removed Usermatt81blue:

Quarks or Apex are your best bet in my opinion. They'll both be great at grade III but will let you climb much harder in the future too.

The fly is a bit more limiting and the Switch a bit ott for starting out.

In reply to Dave Perry:

Surely that's still the same in 2014?

In reply to Ander:

Of course it is the same in 2014!!

But I often say things which upset people, so I didn't say it this time in the hope I wouldn't. But now look what you've made me do!

In reply to Dave Perry:

Yeah, kinda like turning up to climb a mountain Diff in rock shoes..... :-/

In reply to Doghouse, Ander & Dave:

Wow, haven't you all got large balls.

This thread had been going so well.

In reply to DefenderKen:

I was being sarcastic, nothing wrong at all in my book in turning up at a grade I gully with two axes.

In reply to Doghouse:

Sorry dude it appears I had a sarcasm white-out. Maybe touched a nerve as I've climbed a multi pitch mountain Diff in rock shoes

In reply to DefenderKen:

No worries.. . afterall I climb all my multi-pitch mountain Diffs in rock shoes! )

In reply to hexcentric:

Cheers for the help guys.

In reply to DefenderKen:

I'll have my two axes out for striding edge this year

#allthegearneeidea

In reply to jwhepper:

For a 1/11 easy to solo so no winter rack needed. Just crampons and axes