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New featured climbing walls.

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 spartacus 10 Dec 2014
Just been to big rock Milton Keynes. My partner and I got very excited to see a new realistic looking granite wall. We did a few routes which were fun climbing on highly featured routes which didn't yet have holds screwed in and outdoors would go about VS and Severe.
About two thirds of the new bit were completely unclimbable to normal mortals. Overhanging and micro holds.
I've often wondered why wall designers do this. We enjoy trad climbing and climbing featured walls is fun as the route and moves in not completely sign posted by coloured holds. Big rock are not alone in this, Hemel wall suffers the same problem.

We reached the conclusion that the whole wall would be more fun if it were inverted completely leaving a slab or vertical wall. Not a big deal but strikes me as an opertunity lost for lots of people to get a taste of the outside indoors/ have fun.

Any thoughts?
 Neil Williams 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:

The intention is I think that holds will be put on the routes, and with various restrictions on their use you get a re-settable set of routes. If you do it the other way (lower grade routes all over it, not re-settable) people will soon get bored of it - just as everyone has one go at Crazy Climb but tends not to go back as it doesn't change.

Neil
OP spartacus 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:
I see what you are saying, but Milton Keynes already has many gently overhanging walls with routes dictated by holds. It would be nice (as far as we are concerned) to have a taste of something like the outside. Surely the point of a featured wall is to climb the features.
Post edited at 17:20
 Neil Williams 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:

It is - but as I say it only really is for the first few goes, then you get bored of it.

Neil
1
 Ramblin dave 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:
> It would be nice (as far as we are concerned) to have a taste of something like the outside.

You know there's another solution for that?
Post edited at 18:25
OP spartacus 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Ramblin dave:
I live in Buckinghamshire so have to make do. Believe me I would rather be outside any day!

 Bulls Crack 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:

I think there a case for bouldering walls to have a featured section where you can make your own problems and eliminates . I do find the look alike, bolt-on walls mind numbingly dull after a visit or two - even when the problems are well set.
 Ramblin dave 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> I think there a case for bouldering walls to have a featured section where you can make your own problems and eliminates . I do find the look alike, bolt-on walls mind numbingly dull after a visit or two - even when the problems are well set.

The trouble is, in a normal sized wall the features-only bit is going to get boring fairly rapidly too, and doesn't have the saving grace of changing from time to time.

Obviously the ideal solution would be for the walls that I only visit very occasionally to be mostly features while the ones that I go to regularly are plywood with regular routesetting. But that might not be ideal for people who live elsewhere!

The other ideal solution would be for someone to develop a best-of-both-worlds solution that lets you build complicated knobbly 3D feature walls covered in cracks and tufas and grooves and bulges and then reconfigure them at will when they get boring. That's probably a way off being practical yet, although interesting use of volumes and big complicated holds (even bolt-on cracks) seems to be becoming increasingly popular.
i.munro 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:
This is interesting! I've been intending to check this wall out for a while.

There are/were quite a few heavily featured walls kicking around in the SE - Castle, Craggy 2,Mile End, Westway.
None were well used. most have now gone. For the infrequent visitor they were useless as you need knowledge to pick out eliminates.
For the regular it was too awkward trying to come up with good eliminates as all the huge buckets got in the way.

I alway suspected the problem was with the implementation (i.e making them too featured) rather than the concept.
Post edited at 19:01
 Ramblin dave 10 Dec 2014
In reply to i.munro:
> I alway suspected the problem was with the implementation (i.e making them too featured) rather than the concept.

I get the impression that there's always been a trade-off between "realism" and resettability, and since routesetting has generally got better and more regular people have started to put more value on resettability. Ie it doesn't matter that the feature wall can't be reset if the bolt-on routes are boring and never get changed either - but that's (mercifully) becoming increasingly rare these days.

(And in any case, when I'm stuck indoors on a beautiful summer evening cursing the fact that I live two and a half hours drive from the nearest proper crag, an indoor wall with some fake rock features isn't really much more consolation than an indoor wall with plastic bolt-ons.)
Post edited at 19:04
 Neil Williams 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Ramblin dave:

Big Rock in particular have done a *lot* of work with large volumes of late, almost completely changing some parts of the wall by adding them. It's really quite a transformation.

Neil
 Neil Williams 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Ramblin dave:

Big Rock reset things quite frequently - I certainly don't find myself often getting bored of the routes/problems available.

Neil
 Bulls Crack 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Ramblin dave:

Maybe but I never really tired of the Rochdale old wall fro instance and if you have enough small hold the variations can be, if not endless, then legion!
 cb_6 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:

Perhaps what you're missing is that for the most part, featured walls are about footholds not handholds. They make footwork more interesting so that routes aren't simply feet following hands, or small nubbins that make the move obvious. With featured walls it allows climbers to experiment with different foot positions and, much like outdoors, what makes things interesting is that beta that works for one person may not work for another.

Further more, and relating to all that I've just said, an easy route means bigger holds, and nice big footholds could take away from the more subtle aspects of footwork that featured walls offer in their attempt to replicate the outdoors.
OP spartacus 10 Dec 2014
In reply to cb_6:
I don't really understand your point. Our experience at big rock was that about 70% of the new area was overhanging and unclimbable to normal mortals.
I could not even get off the ground, I climb outside E1 on a good day. It obviously will be climbable once holds are bolted on.

Anyone else been on new bit to give a second opinion?

 Neil Williams 10 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:
There are holds on most of it now. Though the grades are way off, largely I hear because some staff thought "features for feet" means "feet on features only", and others thought it meant "only feet are allowed to use features, hands must use holds".

No, I can't climb most of it without holds, but them I'm only 5+/6a ish and rather heavy so disadvantaged on overhangs. More slabby stuff might have been better, I'll give you (the rightmost panel is a very enjoyable climb without the holds), but I don't think it's *terrible*.

Neil
Post edited at 23:30
 MischaHY 11 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:

Fair warning; this post may seem a little confrontational. It's my honest opinion, though.

> unclimbable to normal mortals.

What is this supposed to mean? That's like a casual runner who can run 5-10k going to a marathon and saying 'huh, this is too hard. They should make it easier and shorter so that more NORMAL people can enjoy it.' But, that's not the point of a marathon. It's supposed to be hard, and that's why the wall is steep. Not everything is supposed to be easily attainable. There's much more to climbing than VS slabs.

Plus, feature walls are dull after a couple of runs. Who wants to climb the same route again and again?

> It obviously will be climbable once holds are bolted on.

So what's the big deal? If it's not even been set yet, what are you complaining about?
OP spartacus 11 Dec 2014
In reply to MischaHY:
; this post may seem a little confrontational, So what's the big deal? If it's not even been set yet, what are you complaining about?

Back to usual ukclimbing type thread! I'm off climbing.
 Ramblin dave 11 Dec 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Big Rock in particular have done a *lot* of work with large volumes of late, almost completely changing some parts of the wall by adding them. It's really quite a transformation.

The stalactite things on the big overhang are pretty cool!

But yeah, based on an incredibly small sample it seems to be something that walls are doing more of, and it generally seems to be a good thing.
 Thrudge 11 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:

Leeds wall used to have a slab section where the angle was very easy (I'm guessing around 20 degrees) but the holds were tiny - some were no wider than a fingernail. It was brilliant. I wish more walls would do this.
 Kevster 11 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:

There is one big issue with feature walls. Once you can climb it features only, it doesn't matter what route is set up it, they are capped by how hard the features only is. So if it goes at VS as you say - thats about a 4 or maybe 4+ sport route, you will never get a 6a up it, unless its an eliminate. Then what is the point of having the features?

Maybe they wish for the full spectrum of climbers to be able to use this feature? Such features are rare these days and I think you'll find an 8a climber will appreciate it just like a 4+ climber. Also by adding holds, they can art least change the route and make different features useable in different ways.
There are only 15 routes or so above 7a in the whole wall. So as a person who climbs these grades is already extremely limited in routes to climb - more so than beginners who have a large top rope section and plenty of routes in the lead area. Isn't bringing it all down to beginner level a bit selfish?

If I inverted the argument. As I only lead climb, and usually somewhere in the 7's unless warming up. All the top rope sections are pointless, so too are routes below 6b as they don't really get the blood going for the main show of the hard routes. Sound fair?

Got me going there! Seems I needed a rant this morning.

MK does an alright job of covering most bases, with a little originality as the stalactite features demonstrate. I think they will have thought about this new wall long enough to come up with a wall which works for both them and their wide range of customers. haven't tried the new bit yet - but will now look forward to the challenge.
 Neil Williams 11 Dec 2014
In reply to Tony Naylor:

Big Rock does as well, it's round the back opposite the granite wall. Probably my favourite bit.

Neil
 Neil Williams 11 Dec 2014
In reply to Kevster:
Don't do the training wall down (the 8m bit) by calling it the top-roping wall, even if that is what most of us refer to it as. All of it except the slab has quickdraws for leading (the slab has bolts but no quickdraws, which as they say don't use your own probably suggests you're not meant to lead - possibly because of injury potential), and while the routes up there are fairly short, almost highball-boulder-problem territory, they are often quite clever in the way they are set.

Not 7a or higher, I'll give you - but the vast majority of climbers don't climb 7a or higher. A wall like Big Rock probably needs the majority of its routes in the 6a-6b+ sort of range (and it does have that).

Neil
Post edited at 10:33
OP spartacus 11 Dec 2014
In reply to Kevster:
Intresting post. Just for the record I think MK is a brilliant wall. It rates my number 1 shared with Reading.

Sounds like you climb quite hard and I accept your argument that their should be a balance for all talents. I would be interested to get you feedback on the new bit. I love my outdoor trad climbing and would like indoor stuff to occasionally reflect that.

 Ramblin dave 11 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:

I think his point (which I agree with) is that it's easier to balance all talents if you have a feature wall that's pretty hard on just features and set easier routes by combining the features with a few bolt-on holds than if you have a feature wall that's pretty easy on just features and can only set harder routes by coming up with contrived eliminates.
OP spartacus 11 Dec 2014
In reply to Ramblin dave:
The reason for my interest in others trying it is that I think you would need the power of leavatation to get up anything on the left hand end on just features.
Go and have a go and see what you think. Thanks why I invite Kevster ( who climbs a whole lot harder than I do) to have a go.

 MischaHY 11 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:

> The reason for my interest in others trying it is that I think you would need the power of leavatation to get up anything on the left hand end on just features.

Did you completely miss the point everyone has been trying to make? The features are there to ENHANCE the wall, not provide a climb in of themselves.

 Fraser 11 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:

If you were to reply on purely the features as handholds, these 'hidden holds' would soon become very evident due to the amount of chalk people use. Then you've got the issue of removing said chalk, which isn't a problem with bolt-on holds. In a hypothetical context however, yes, it would be nice to have to discover these holds by yourself.
 Fraser 11 Dec 2014
In reply to MischaHY:

> Did you completely miss the point everyone has been trying to make?

I actually think everyone is missing the point the OP was trying to make, not vice versa.
 hamsforlegs 11 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:

> The reason for my interest in others trying it is that I think you would need the power of leavatation to get up anything on the left hand end on just features.

It's probably just not intended for that? As Kevster has outlined, hard climbers will tend to want to train on something that isn't 'capped' at a lower level than they can climb. Perhaps the steep bit might go at 7c (not an outlandish grade these days, though miles off for me). If you climb 8a, then they will simply never be able to put a challenging climb on that section. So it makes more sense to make sure that the steep section for hard climbing is more like 9a without holds, and the holds then create routes of varying levels of difficulty. The features are probably just intended to provide footholds and smearing options.

One problem with larger features (at any angle) is that regulars soon get them wired, and will know that eg. any move needing a leftward lunge over the second overlap can be cheated with a drop knee/heel combo on the features. This is just inevitable, and ultimately puts a big cap on the fun of the wall for many.

I do see your point about walls that mirror outdoor trad. My trad grade is probably worse than yours, but I still mainly want to climb harder things when indoors, so I would be a bit miffed if they turned half my local wall over to easy, slabby routes.

Hard slabby routes tend to attract only a masochistic minority
OP spartacus 11 Dec 2014
In reply to MischaHY:
It might be the point you trying to make, it's not the point everyone's trying to make. Your opinion on what a featured Wall is for is not everyone else's.

Your very confrontational, your replies are an excellent rational for why I don't bother posting very often. This thread was supposed to be interested observation.
Post edited at 14:29
General Lee 13 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:

Without making it personal to Milton Keynes or any other indoor climbing wall.

I am starting to think that the way the new climbing walls are being build caters more for the experienced and harder climber, I believe Hemel Hempstead is an extreme example for this where the wall is very overhanging and there is very little slabby or even strait up wall.
I climb indoor 6B max and love a nice challenge but I'm starting to think that the climbing wall managers have lost sight of what the majority of climbers grade is, I completely agree that there need to be climbs for the people who climb the really hard grades but please don't loose sight that the beginners and average or even occasional climber makes up the majority of the clients and paying public for the indoor walls.
I guess what I'm trying to say is please make sure you cater for the majority of the paying clients and try not to scare the beginners away and also have the climbs that these people look at and think no I'll never do that.

But I do agree with aztec-bar and believe that a good feature wall is great fun for exploring and finding your own way up but that the left side of the new wall in Milton Keynes has gone to far and have removed the fun exploring element of the experience.
 Ramblin dave 13 Dec 2014
In reply to General Lee:

I climb slightly less hard than you, and I can't think of a single wall I've climbed at that's felt like it's catering excessively to the harder and more experienced climber and losing sight of average climbers and beginners. Except maybe the old Arch, but there you had the option of going to any of about three other excellent walls in London if it wasn't your cup of tea. Milton Keynes in particular has absolutely acres of jug-infested slabby-to-vertical walls.
1
 MischaHY 13 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:

My point is that, as pointed out by others on this thread, there is plenty of easy climbing to be had. Isn't it right for them to balance it out with some decent hard stuff?
OP spartacus 13 Dec 2014
In reply to MischaHY:
My point is this, I have just come back from a great session at MK. The new granite bit now has holds bolted to it.

It has two great panels on it with natural looking deep cracks which can be jamed and lay backed without resorting to plastic holds. A number of people commented on how much fun it was and how it made a complete change from your normal bolt on's holds up flat panelled walls ( which are available in great numbers throughout the centre). Someone was even sporting taped hands to prevent grit rash.
The rest of the new granite wall appears to be unclimbable on features only hence my comment on a wasted opertunity.

Your profile shows you climb E4, if you haven't seen the wall in question please go to MK and have a go, it would then make more sense to discuss it on here. You make a case for the fairness of having decent hard stuff which I would agree. I don't think you will clean it even on a top rope, but would be very happy if you can prove me wrong.



 Big Steve 13 Dec 2014
In reply to Ramblin dave:
I havent got anything against Big Rock, but I think it is a mere playground in comparison to the Pinnacle, Northampton. More routes, better spread of grades, better set routes, bigger and better in every way except for bouldering.
 MischaHY 13 Dec 2014
In reply to Aztec Bar:

It's a funny thing. Personally I like climbing on plastic, I just don't like boring setting. Henceforth, the idea of a wall that could use a combination of plastic holds and features to make difficult tenuous routes excites me more than the idea of a more heavily featured wall that only offers one route. I hope that makes sense.
 Neil Williams 14 Dec 2014
In reply to Big Steve:
I would have said that in the past, when Big Rock only had a few regular route-setters, but they have *seriously* upped their game in the past year or two. The variety and quality of routes and boulder problems has improved substantially, the range of grades is good, and the bouldering is rather better than at many or even most walls that aren't just bouldering centres (while at Northampton it is *very* small).

It's gone from an OK wall that I went to mostly because it is local, to one I would recommend people actually go out of their way to visit.

Neil
Post edited at 21:30
 Big Steve 14 Dec 2014
In reply to Neil Williams:
maybe I will give it another go then

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