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Next year, the Mountain Bothies Association will have been going for 50 years. Of course, bothies themselves have been going for a lot longer. Historically, they would have been utilised by people with local knowledge. Now their location is obtained by a quick internet search- and yet surprisingly they endure-by and large.
Yet within that same half century, in the last 30 years, the network of spartan and communal accommodation provided by the Youth Hostel Association has virtually disappeared in the UK. We are told this is because society has changed. Yet people still visit bothies which, as they are open to all, hint that a considerate approach to a communal resource is required of users. Paradoxically though, this same requirement in hostels, that people tidy up after themselves, has been cited as a reason why people no longer patronised the old YHA.
Are bothies likely to still be there, in the same numbers, in another fifty years time?
Yet within that same half century, in the last 30 years, the network of spartan and communal accommodation provided by the Youth Hostel Association has virtually disappeared in the UK. We are told this is because society has changed. Yet people still visit bothies which, as they are open to all, hint that a considerate approach to a communal resource is required of users. Paradoxically though, this same requirement in hostels, that people tidy up after themselves, has been cited as a reason why people no longer patronised the old YHA.
Are bothies likely to still be there, in the same numbers, in another fifty years time?
In reply to llechwedd:
Don't really want to divert the thread, but I suspect the decline in the YHA & SYHA is down to their policies seeming to change, with many of the smaller, more basic hostels shutting & more large, city centre hostels opening plus a change in clientèle - last few times I used one I was very much in a minority not arriving by car
But I hope bothies continue
Don't really want to divert the thread, but I suspect the decline in the YHA & SYHA is down to their policies seeming to change, with many of the smaller, more basic hostels shutting & more large, city centre hostels opening plus a change in clientèle - last few times I used one I was very much in a minority not arriving by car
But I hope bothies continue
In reply to llechwedd:
Well I certainly won't still be looking after Corrour in another 50 years (though I might always hope...). No plans to give up in the immediate future, but it would be nice to see some younger folk getting involved - and, given my age, 'younger' covers a wide age range.
Well I certainly won't still be looking after Corrour in another 50 years (though I might always hope...). No plans to give up in the immediate future, but it would be nice to see some younger folk getting involved - and, given my age, 'younger' covers a wide age range.
In reply to llechwedd:
A bit of an aside really, but weren't the MBA trying to take 'their' bothies in a youth hostel sort of direction about 20 years ago?
A bit of an aside really, but weren't the MBA trying to take 'their' bothies in a youth hostel sort of direction about 20 years ago?
In reply to malky_c:
I suppose there might be room for car-club-style usage - online booking (so they know who is using them for if damage is caused) with a door code given out. One difficulty with them is (a) they might be full, and (b) they might get vandalised.
That said, there is something really endearing and olde-worlde about them as they are. And if it's not broke...
Neil
I suppose there might be room for car-club-style usage - online booking (so they know who is using them for if damage is caused) with a door code given out. One difficulty with them is (a) they might be full, and (b) they might get vandalised.
That said, there is something really endearing and olde-worlde about them as they are. And if it's not broke...
Neil
Post edited at 15:19
In reply to llechwedd:
Yes, they'll still be there. With several new projects and replacements in the pipeline I can't see any cause for major concern. I fully intend to go on my first work party next year. It's my of putting a bit back now I have the time.
Yes, they'll still be there. With several new projects and replacements in the pipeline I can't see any cause for major concern. I fully intend to go on my first work party next year. It's my of putting a bit back now I have the time.
In reply to Neil Williams:
I agree - I prefer things as they are. I just remember reading something about some kind of MBA committee power struggle back in the '90s. I assume the majority of the members also wanted things to stay as they were too.
I agree - I prefer things as they are. I just remember reading something about some kind of MBA committee power struggle back in the '90s. I assume the majority of the members also wanted things to stay as they were too.
In reply to Doug:
I got the impression that they did have a bit of an issue with "society changing", but that that had less to do with people not wanting cheap and spartan accommodation and more to do with a mug of cocoa and a singsong before lights out not seeming quite as exciting in 1970 as it did in 1935. They ended up with a bit of a reputation, probably mostly deserved, for being a bit stuffy and old-fashioned. It's noticeable these days how often they seem to be getting out-competed for their own stated target market of "young people of limited means" by more relaxed and less corporate independent hostels.
So yeah, back on topic, I don't think I've seen much evidence that people are going to lose interest in bothying in the immediate future.
I got the impression that they did have a bit of an issue with "society changing", but that that had less to do with people not wanting cheap and spartan accommodation and more to do with a mug of cocoa and a singsong before lights out not seeming quite as exciting in 1970 as it did in 1935. They ended up with a bit of a reputation, probably mostly deserved, for being a bit stuffy and old-fashioned. It's noticeable these days how often they seem to be getting out-competed for their own stated target market of "young people of limited means" by more relaxed and less corporate independent hostels.
So yeah, back on topic, I don't think I've seen much evidence that people are going to lose interest in bothying in the immediate future.
1
In reply to Doug:
I guess that's what I was hinting at, the more basic hostels shutting because, in the age of increasing consumerism, the original ethos of the hostelling movement meant little to the accountant mentality of either those in YHA head office or the might be hostellers. Thus, as you say, the honeypot hostels predominate, aiming to cater for the international backpackers and 'weekend tourists'.
Nowadays, there is no longer a 'walker friendly' national network of basic overnight accomodation, with basic hostels filling in the gaps, an arrangement which seemed to encourage a capacity to engage deeply with the land as man has done for millenia. In its' place nowdays, 'premium' hostels as base camp, with the anachronistic bothies commonly touted as some sort of place to drive to for an overnight wilderness experience because it was featured in the weekend Guardian or somesuch.
I don't pretend that there was a golden age, where bothies weren't vandalised. I do wonder though, if in an age where there is less sense of real community, where issues of liability push the MBA to ask people not to maintain bothies unless officially sanctioned, and yet pressures on the countryside are increasing, bothies are only likely to remain as vandalproof hovels surrounded by a Somme like landscape of turds and bogpaper.
> Don't really want to divert the thread, but I suspect the decline in the YHA & SYHA is down to their policies seeming to change, with many of the smaller, more basic hostels shutting & more large, city centre hostels opening plus a change in clientèle - last few times I used one I was very much in a minority not arriving by car
I guess that's what I was hinting at, the more basic hostels shutting because, in the age of increasing consumerism, the original ethos of the hostelling movement meant little to the accountant mentality of either those in YHA head office or the might be hostellers. Thus, as you say, the honeypot hostels predominate, aiming to cater for the international backpackers and 'weekend tourists'.
Nowadays, there is no longer a 'walker friendly' national network of basic overnight accomodation, with basic hostels filling in the gaps, an arrangement which seemed to encourage a capacity to engage deeply with the land as man has done for millenia. In its' place nowdays, 'premium' hostels as base camp, with the anachronistic bothies commonly touted as some sort of place to drive to for an overnight wilderness experience because it was featured in the weekend Guardian or somesuch.
I don't pretend that there was a golden age, where bothies weren't vandalised. I do wonder though, if in an age where there is less sense of real community, where issues of liability push the MBA to ask people not to maintain bothies unless officially sanctioned, and yet pressures on the countryside are increasing, bothies are only likely to remain as vandalproof hovels surrounded by a Somme like landscape of turds and bogpaper.
In reply to malky_c:
Before my time, but I believe there was a bid to do that from one quarter. It was beaten off and bothies remain open to all. As an aside, there's no real need for the apostrophes round 'their': With the exception of one bothy which DOES belong to the MBA as a result of a bequest, almost all the bothies the MBA looks after are owned by the landowner and leased to the MBA, so the MBA does have legal tenure. Some people seem to think (and behave as if) bothies are common property, but that's far from being the case.
> A bit of an aside really, but weren't the MBA trying to take 'their' bothies in a youth hostel sort of direction about 20 years ago?
Before my time, but I believe there was a bid to do that from one quarter. It was beaten off and bothies remain open to all. As an aside, there's no real need for the apostrophes round 'their': With the exception of one bothy which DOES belong to the MBA as a result of a bequest, almost all the bothies the MBA looks after are owned by the landowner and leased to the MBA, so the MBA does have legal tenure. Some people seem to think (and behave as if) bothies are common property, but that's far from being the case.
In reply to OMR:
Thanks for mention of Corrour. It serves to remind me what a fantastic resource the UK bothies are. I've had occasion to use it once in an emergency and recall its' presence with gratitude. As I've read and enjoyed your blog, I can also recall the dedication you and fellow MBA'ers display in maintainence of the place ( emptying the bogs, carrying out etc).
I suppose, by naming one bothy, you've helped give focus to my thoughts. If I think of bothies 'UK', then maybe there's a feeling that , by the analysis of personal cost: benefit, many bothies shouldn't still be going: Very few people maintain them, thousands pass through leaving little evidence of their passage, a small proportion of them choose to litter and a few even vandalise. Why then should anyone decide to buck the trend and actually put time and effort into bothy maintenance?
Corrour is an example of why.
p.s. any idea how many members are in the MBA?
Thanks for mention of Corrour. It serves to remind me what a fantastic resource the UK bothies are. I've had occasion to use it once in an emergency and recall its' presence with gratitude. As I've read and enjoyed your blog, I can also recall the dedication you and fellow MBA'ers display in maintainence of the place ( emptying the bogs, carrying out etc).
I suppose, by naming one bothy, you've helped give focus to my thoughts. If I think of bothies 'UK', then maybe there's a feeling that , by the analysis of personal cost: benefit, many bothies shouldn't still be going: Very few people maintain them, thousands pass through leaving little evidence of their passage, a small proportion of them choose to litter and a few even vandalise. Why then should anyone decide to buck the trend and actually put time and effort into bothy maintenance?
Corrour is an example of why.
p.s. any idea how many members are in the MBA?
In reply to Removed UserDeleted bagger:
The project of a replacement for Camasunary seems an amazing act of faith and generosity.
> Yes, they'll still be there. With several new projects and replacements in the pipeline I can't see any cause for major concern. I fully intend to go on my first work party next year. It's my of putting a bit back now I have the time.
The project of a replacement for Camasunary seems an amazing act of faith and generosity.
In reply to llechwedd:
I left the YHA when they changed this policy and started aiming for a different target market, closed some of the best (most basic) hostels, and concentrated on the big city hostels instead.
> Paradoxically though, this same requirement in hostels, that people tidy up after themselves, has been cited as a reason why people no longer patronised the old YHA.
I left the YHA when they changed this policy and started aiming for a different target market, closed some of the best (most basic) hostels, and concentrated on the big city hostels instead.
In reply to llechwedd:
Not sure how many members the MBA has, but most of those are supporting through their subs rather than in work parties (don't know why - work parties are some of the best weekends I can recall).
To answer your earlier point about the MBA asking people not to carry out unauthorised work, this isn't just a liability question; it goes back to the fact that bothies are not 'owned by no-one and everyone', but are leased by the MBA which remains responsible for their upkeep. Because most of them are remote it can take time to organise a work party to address any problem, so some people may think they're doing the right thing by bodging something together. However, as bothies are generally becoming more habitable rather than less, the nature of work required tends to increase in complexity and it is frustrating if people turn up to do a job only to find they first have to 'undo' a well-meaning repair before they can go to work doing the job properly. Different, obviously, in the case of making a temporary emergency repair but if anyone feels the urge to make a bothy a better place they should get in touch with the MBA or that bothy's maintenance organiser, and help out at a work party. Makes sure everyone is paddling in the same direction - and means you have insurance cover when working there.
Was that a bit of a book? Sorry.
Not sure how many members the MBA has, but most of those are supporting through their subs rather than in work parties (don't know why - work parties are some of the best weekends I can recall).
To answer your earlier point about the MBA asking people not to carry out unauthorised work, this isn't just a liability question; it goes back to the fact that bothies are not 'owned by no-one and everyone', but are leased by the MBA which remains responsible for their upkeep. Because most of them are remote it can take time to organise a work party to address any problem, so some people may think they're doing the right thing by bodging something together. However, as bothies are generally becoming more habitable rather than less, the nature of work required tends to increase in complexity and it is frustrating if people turn up to do a job only to find they first have to 'undo' a well-meaning repair before they can go to work doing the job properly. Different, obviously, in the case of making a temporary emergency repair but if anyone feels the urge to make a bothy a better place they should get in touch with the MBA or that bothy's maintenance organiser, and help out at a work party. Makes sure everyone is paddling in the same direction - and means you have insurance cover when working there.
Was that a bit of a book? Sorry.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
I sympathise. The YHA sold off Capel Curig not so long ago, presumably thinking it wasn't worth investment. It's reopened as an independent 'premium' hostel , By the number of cars outside, it seems to be doing rather well, despite its' harshly overlit, exterior on these winter nights buggering up the ambience of the area.
I used to hear the reason for the sell offs was because they were asset rich but cash poor. Presumably the sale of Capel Curig hostel helped fund the major refurb' a few years later at Pen Y Pass YHA.
It's good that the SYHA still pair up with the Gatliff Trust though.
> I left the YHA when they changed this policy and started aiming for a different target market, closed some of the best (most basic) hostels, and concentrated on the big city hostels instead.
I sympathise. The YHA sold off Capel Curig not so long ago, presumably thinking it wasn't worth investment. It's reopened as an independent 'premium' hostel , By the number of cars outside, it seems to be doing rather well, despite its' harshly overlit, exterior on these winter nights buggering up the ambience of the area.
I used to hear the reason for the sell offs was because they were asset rich but cash poor. Presumably the sale of Capel Curig hostel helped fund the major refurb' a few years later at Pen Y Pass YHA.
It's good that the SYHA still pair up with the Gatliff Trust though.
In reply to llechwedd:
I don't think your statement "Nowadays, there is no longer a 'walker friendly' national network of basic overnight accommodation" is true at all. There are as many bothies and many more hostels. I don't know about the YHA but I can say that the SYHA is doing a good job. I do have some concerns though about their perceived big hostel focus.
I don't think your statement "Nowadays, there is no longer a 'walker friendly' national network of basic overnight accommodation" is true at all. There are as many bothies and many more hostels. I don't know about the YHA but I can say that the SYHA is doing a good job. I do have some concerns though about their perceived big hostel focus.
In reply to Cuthbert:
Here's a list showing how many hostels there once were. The notes that accompany it make interesting reading
http://www.calmview.bham.ac.uk/GetDocument.ashx?db=Catalog&fname=YHA+Hi...
By 'walker friendly' I meant hostels /bothies you could walk or travel between on public transport in the same day, rather than, as now seems to be the implication, somewhere you could go for a walk from once you've driven there.
> I don't think your statement "Nowadays, there is no longer a 'walker friendly' national network of basic overnight accommodation" is true at all. There are as many bothies and many more hostels. I don't know about the YHA but I can say that the SYHA is doing a good job. I do have some concerns though about their perceived big hostel focus.
Here's a list showing how many hostels there once were. The notes that accompany it make interesting reading
http://www.calmview.bham.ac.uk/GetDocument.ashx?db=Catalog&fname=YHA+Hi...
By 'walker friendly' I meant hostels /bothies you could walk or travel between on public transport in the same day, rather than, as now seems to be the implication, somewhere you could go for a walk from once you've driven there.
In reply to llechwedd:
Fifty years is going to see a lot of changes. I think the survival of bothies would be one of the least of our concerns.
Fifty years is going to see a lot of changes. I think the survival of bothies would be one of the least of our concerns.
In reply to llechwedd:
thanks for that list, sad to see that so many of the hostels I used a cycling & walking teenager are now shut
thanks for that list, sad to see that so many of the hostels I used a cycling & walking teenager are now shut
In reply to OMR:
No plans to give up in the immediate future, but it would be nice to see some younger folk getting involved - and, given my age, 'younger' covers a wide age range.
There are plenty of "younger people", can probably include myself there, using bothies. I certainly hope that some of us will be willing to take on custodian roles in the future. A great tradition and long may it continue (and I see no reason why it shouldn't!)
No plans to give up in the immediate future, but it would be nice to see some younger folk getting involved - and, given my age, 'younger' covers a wide age range.
There are plenty of "younger people", can probably include myself there, using bothies. I certainly hope that some of us will be willing to take on custodian roles in the future. A great tradition and long may it continue (and I see no reason why it shouldn't!)
In reply to Cuthbert:
The SYHA aren't too bad, and I still use them occasionally. I'd say they're roughly at the point the English YHA were at about 20 years ago
> I don't know about the YHA but I can say that the SYHA is doing a good job. I do have some concerns though about their perceived big hostel focus.
The SYHA aren't too bad, and I still use them occasionally. I'd say they're roughly at the point the English YHA were at about 20 years ago
In reply to llechwedd:
3572 in 2011, can't find a current figure.
> p.s. any idea how many members are in the MBA?
3572 in 2011, can't find a current figure.
In reply to llechwedd:
I find the gradual drift of the YHA England & Wales towards being a chain of crap generic family hotels a bit depressing, but I'm not sure that it's a symptom of a general lack of interest in cheap and basic accommodation so much as a lack of interest in what was, for quite a long time, cheap and basic accommodation with a membership requirement, a no-alcohol policy, strictly enforced lights-out time, single-sex dormitories, loads of rules and regulations, and the danger of little-Hitler wardens. And whether these days, "young people of limited means" are choosing to camp or stay in bunk-barns or club huts (or indeed in bothies) rather than spending £15 a night for a dorm room...
Edit: that's meant to be an optimistic note, by the way, just expressed in a grumpy manner...
I find the gradual drift of the YHA England & Wales towards being a chain of crap generic family hotels a bit depressing, but I'm not sure that it's a symptom of a general lack of interest in cheap and basic accommodation so much as a lack of interest in what was, for quite a long time, cheap and basic accommodation with a membership requirement, a no-alcohol policy, strictly enforced lights-out time, single-sex dormitories, loads of rules and regulations, and the danger of little-Hitler wardens. And whether these days, "young people of limited means" are choosing to camp or stay in bunk-barns or club huts (or indeed in bothies) rather than spending £15 a night for a dorm room...
Edit: that's meant to be an optimistic note, by the way, just expressed in a grumpy manner...
Post edited at 00:54
In reply to streapadair:
Thanks, that's a smaller number than I thought it would be.
> 3572 in 2011, can't find a current figure.
Thanks, that's a smaller number than I thought it would be.
In reply to Ramblin dave:
>.... I'm not sure that it's a symptom of a general lack of interest in cheap and basic accommodation so much as a lack of interest in what was, for quite a long time, cheap and basic accommodation with a membership requirement, a no-alcohol policy, strictly enforced lights-out time, single-sex dormitories, loads of rules and regulations, and the danger of little-Hitler wardens.
Putting it that way, and viewed through today's lens of equality & diversity/valuing everyone's opinion, the YHA then seems the epitome of control freakery that has sensibly been discarded.
Undoubtedly there were little- Hitler wardens, but generally the rules such as no alcohol, lights out, and single sex dorms were more conducive to getting a night's sleep. The societal drive to freedom from rules implies an optimistic view of human behaviour, that people with rights will also accept their responsibilities. I'd agree that this is what has finished off the hostelling associations. But perhaps those same rules could've helped fashion habit forming behaviours beneficial to communal living (I can almost hear the indignation of others as I finish that last sentence- 'we don't need rules'!).. Most of us would agree that bothies are a good thing- we support them. But, if Streapadair's figure of MBA membership is an indication, by and large, we only support them in a Facebook 'like' sort of way, i.e. doing bugger all but take, and when rubbish is left, pointing the finger at 'Neds'. 'We' wouldn't do that. But who are the 'we'? A disparate group of individuals, most only vaguely aware that someone else is translating words into action so that we can continue to enjoy bothies.
The independent hostels have received praise for the way they've refashioned 'hostelling' - but they're not all good, and have a share of eccentric wardens- e.g. Jeremy Inglis Hostel/ Oban, Gerry Howkins/Achnashellach.
>.... I'm not sure that it's a symptom of a general lack of interest in cheap and basic accommodation so much as a lack of interest in what was, for quite a long time, cheap and basic accommodation with a membership requirement, a no-alcohol policy, strictly enforced lights-out time, single-sex dormitories, loads of rules and regulations, and the danger of little-Hitler wardens.
Putting it that way, and viewed through today's lens of equality & diversity/valuing everyone's opinion, the YHA then seems the epitome of control freakery that has sensibly been discarded.
Undoubtedly there were little- Hitler wardens, but generally the rules such as no alcohol, lights out, and single sex dorms were more conducive to getting a night's sleep. The societal drive to freedom from rules implies an optimistic view of human behaviour, that people with rights will also accept their responsibilities. I'd agree that this is what has finished off the hostelling associations. But perhaps those same rules could've helped fashion habit forming behaviours beneficial to communal living (I can almost hear the indignation of others as I finish that last sentence- 'we don't need rules'!).. Most of us would agree that bothies are a good thing- we support them. But, if Streapadair's figure of MBA membership is an indication, by and large, we only support them in a Facebook 'like' sort of way, i.e. doing bugger all but take, and when rubbish is left, pointing the finger at 'Neds'. 'We' wouldn't do that. But who are the 'we'? A disparate group of individuals, most only vaguely aware that someone else is translating words into action so that we can continue to enjoy bothies.
The independent hostels have received praise for the way they've refashioned 'hostelling' - but they're not all good, and have a share of eccentric wardens- e.g. Jeremy Inglis Hostel/ Oban, Gerry Howkins/Achnashellach.
In reply to llechwedd:
That first paragraph sums up my first and last visit to a youth hostel in 1984.
Maybe moved on but will always prefer a bothy.
Perhaps maybe not Sourlies with 30 odd German students. Couldn't even escape as there was no floor left to step on!
That first paragraph sums up my first and last visit to a youth hostel in 1984.
Maybe moved on but will always prefer a bothy.
Perhaps maybe not Sourlies with 30 odd German students. Couldn't even escape as there was no floor left to step on!
In reply to fmck:
I think that first para' was Ramblin' dave's, didn't come out in italics after my editing.
I imagine you now know the German for 'mouse' quite well.
Sourlies seems to have more than its' share of memorable bothy anecdotes, only I can't remember any of them. Perhaps someone should start a new thread....
I think that first para' was Ramblin' dave's, didn't come out in italics after my editing.
I imagine you now know the German for 'mouse' quite well.
Sourlies seems to have more than its' share of memorable bothy anecdotes, only I can't remember any of them. Perhaps someone should start a new thread....
I'm in the MBA but haven't yet joined any work groups.
A lack of construction skills and a nervous dog are my main reasons for not going on any. As much as possible, when I go into the hills, I would take my dog but I couldn't trust him around other people (because I cannot trust other people around him - if they leave him alone and just let him sniff about, he is fine, but its amazing how many will ignore advice about a dog from the dog's owner (they all seem to think they are dog whisperers) and insist on trying to make friends with him when he's giving clear signals that he'd rather be left alone.
I may go on one now that my dog's too old for the hills but I fear my typing skills and pensions knowledge would be of little benefit.
A lack of construction skills and a nervous dog are my main reasons for not going on any. As much as possible, when I go into the hills, I would take my dog but I couldn't trust him around other people (because I cannot trust other people around him - if they leave him alone and just let him sniff about, he is fine, but its amazing how many will ignore advice about a dog from the dog's owner (they all seem to think they are dog whisperers) and insist on trying to make friends with him when he's giving clear signals that he'd rather be left alone.
I may go on one now that my dog's too old for the hills but I fear my typing skills and pensions knowledge would be of little benefit.
In reply to llechwedd:
Could it be that fewer people are going out walking? Even mountain bikers seem to have been seduced by the allure of trail centres where they can buy fizzy drinks then strew the empties for the first mile along the trail.
Could it be that fewer people are going out walking? Even mountain bikers seem to have been seduced by the allure of trail centres where they can buy fizzy drinks then strew the empties for the first mile along the trail.
In reply to Rigid Raider:
I'm not sure if your post is in reply to streapadair's one about the drop in MBA members. Certainly Cwm Idwal, in my own back yard, seems busier than ever, so locally at least, it seems like more people are going out walking . But maybe Cwm Idwal's the walker's equivalent of the trail centres you cite, and they're daytrippers rather than bothying or wildcamping.
I'm not sure if it's possible to arrive at an accurate figure for numbers wildcamping or bothying. Number of lightweight tents sold/ quadrat sampling around bothies for buried cack/cars left overnight in rural carparks? ( better scrub that last one for fear of munro baggers car parks being dogging hotspots)....
> Could it be that fewer people are going out walking? Even mountain bikers seem to have been seduced by the allure of trail centres where they can buy fizzy drinks then strew the empties for the first mile along the trail.
I'm not sure if your post is in reply to streapadair's one about the drop in MBA members. Certainly Cwm Idwal, in my own back yard, seems busier than ever, so locally at least, it seems like more people are going out walking . But maybe Cwm Idwal's the walker's equivalent of the trail centres you cite, and they're daytrippers rather than bothying or wildcamping.
I'm not sure if it's possible to arrive at an accurate figure for numbers wildcamping or bothying. Number of lightweight tents sold/ quadrat sampling around bothies for buried cack/cars left overnight in rural carparks? ( better scrub that last one for fear of munro baggers car parks being dogging hotspots)....
In reply to streapadair:
Possibly the fact that that's about when they put the locations of their bothies on their public website rather than just in the members handbook?
I'm still not seeing a great deal of evidence to support all this doom and gloom. It feels like some people who've decided that the world is going to hell in a handcart because the younger generation have been distracted from the simple pleasures of the outdoors, and are now making up trends to support that position, stating them as fact and nodding sagely.
> Peaked at 4335 in 08/09 then dropped off. Recession or another factor?
Possibly the fact that that's about when they put the locations of their bothies on their public website rather than just in the members handbook?
I'm still not seeing a great deal of evidence to support all this doom and gloom. It feels like some people who've decided that the world is going to hell in a handcart because the younger generation have been distracted from the simple pleasures of the outdoors, and are now making up trends to support that position, stating them as fact and nodding sagely.
Post edited at 14:32
In reply to Flinticus:
Flinticus, I'm absolutely not getting at you or criticizing you or saying you can't take your dog somewhere. But I'm really scared of dogs and always have been - they make me very nervous and I can't stand having them anywhere near me (I know, I'm a wimp. Not your fault).
I always listen to dog owners' advice. And never try to make friends with a dog.
What I want to tell you is I have no idea whatsoever when a dog's "giving clear signals that he'd rather be left alone". Please don't expect me to read your dog's or any dog's signals.
Thanks for listening. Happy climbing/ walking!
> ...its amazing how many will ignore advice about a dog from the dog's owner (they all seem to think they are dog whisperers) and insist on trying to make friends with him when he's giving clear signals that he'd rather be left alone.
Flinticus, I'm absolutely not getting at you or criticizing you or saying you can't take your dog somewhere. But I'm really scared of dogs and always have been - they make me very nervous and I can't stand having them anywhere near me (I know, I'm a wimp. Not your fault).
I always listen to dog owners' advice. And never try to make friends with a dog.
What I want to tell you is I have no idea whatsoever when a dog's "giving clear signals that he'd rather be left alone". Please don't expect me to read your dog's or any dog's signals.
Thanks for listening. Happy climbing/ walking!
In reply to Cuthbert:
As a Life member of the SYHA, I agree they do a great job, and I support them wholeheartedly. I did write to them a couple of years ago however, as I did feel there was drift away from members to a 'cheap hotel' scenario, which disturbed me. I must say there seems to be a little more sensitivity now, so let's hope it continues.
I am also a MBA member, and have been meaning to do a WP for years, but as I work weekends in the summer, that seems to make a it tricky. I will endeavour to do so in 2015..............
> I don't think your statement "Nowadays, there is no longer a 'walker friendly' national network of basic overnight accommodation" is true at all. There are as many bothies and many more hostels. I don't know about the YHA but I can say that the SYHA is doing a good job. I do have some concerns though about their perceived big hostel focus.
As a Life member of the SYHA, I agree they do a great job, and I support them wholeheartedly. I did write to them a couple of years ago however, as I did feel there was drift away from members to a 'cheap hotel' scenario, which disturbed me. I must say there seems to be a little more sensitivity now, so let's hope it continues.
I am also a MBA member, and have been meaning to do a WP for years, but as I work weekends in the summer, that seems to make a it tricky. I will endeavour to do so in 2015..............
In reply to llechwedd:
I was referring to Scotland. I don't know much about the hostel situation south of the border.
I was referring to Scotland. I don't know much about the hostel situation south of the border.
In reply to JohnnyW:
Agree and I too am a life member. Total bargain that incidentally.
I know that Carbisdale is lovely, but I can't see it being worth sacrificing other hostels for.
Agree and I too am a life member. Total bargain that incidentally.
I know that Carbisdale is lovely, but I can't see it being worth sacrificing other hostels for.
I am sure that any of you with any uncertainties or questions would be welcome at any MBA area meeting, where you will get a fair idea of how they operate and the problems they deal with.
In reply to abseil:
No worries! I was bitten by a dog as a kid (in the back! swinging from a tree and on the back swing, I think my legs clipped the dog who then jumped up at me and bit my back) and was wary of dogs for most of my life. It was only making friends with two people who happened to have dogs, and then getting my own, that changed my feelings.
Am still respectful of stranger's dogs however (and scared of certain breeds too)
Clear signals are usually backing away from the person and trying to cower between / behind my legs , under a table etc.! Ears flat back on the head and, if person persists, a low growl and lips pulling back (rarely gets this far as I will have turned around and taken dog away or have more firm words with the person)
No worries! I was bitten by a dog as a kid (in the back! swinging from a tree and on the back swing, I think my legs clipped the dog who then jumped up at me and bit my back) and was wary of dogs for most of my life. It was only making friends with two people who happened to have dogs, and then getting my own, that changed my feelings.
Am still respectful of stranger's dogs however (and scared of certain breeds too)
Clear signals are usually backing away from the person and trying to cower between / behind my legs , under a table etc.! Ears flat back on the head and, if person persists, a low growl and lips pulling back (rarely gets this far as I will have turned around and taken dog away or have more firm words with the person)
In reply to Flinticus:
Thanks a lot for your reply. What you wrote is helpful, especially the tips about clear signals from dogs.
> No worries! I was bitten by a dog as a kid... Clear signals are usually backing away from the person and trying to cower between / behind my legs , under a table etc.! Ears flat back on the head and, if person persists, a low growl and lips pulling back...
Thanks a lot for your reply. What you wrote is helpful, especially the tips about clear signals from dogs.
In reply to abseil:
Ears flat back is an indication of fear. If the dog has no obvious avenue of escape or thinks he has to protect the master or himself, then that fear can translate into an aggressive / defensive move.
Ears flat back is an indication of fear. If the dog has no obvious avenue of escape or thinks he has to protect the master or himself, then that fear can translate into an aggressive / defensive move.
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