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Advice - possibly an unusual strategy for starting ski touring

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 tnewmark 20 Dec 2014
I've been piste skiing for about ten years, and a couple of my friends are also good/intermediate skiers (one who has done some ski touring already), but my wife has just done one week of skiing last year. She managed to get down a few reds near to the end of the week. But what she lacks in skiing skills, she makes up with enthusiasm and a desire to get away from the crowds.

We'd like to get away from the piste next year in the Alps and I was wondering if anyone has done what we're thinking of? We would like to find a refuge or maybe a private hut for the four of us, and just have a go at some easy day ski touring trips. We'd also combine this with practicing some winter skills (self-arrest, some rope work, walking with crampons, snow pack tests) but without a guide, and on some fairly gentle slopes. Then combine all of that with some opportunity to just sit by a fire reading books (including on things such as avalanche avoidance and winter skills), planning our next day, and cook some nice meals together. The long plan, I suppose, is to learn the skills we need by ourselves, so we don't need to rely upon guides too much.

Did anyone start like this? What was your experience? And if so, or even if not, could you recommend a good area and accommodation in the Alps (or elsewhere in Europe) to go?

Thanks so much,

Tom
 DaveHK 20 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:
> > Did anyone start like this?

No, but I consider myself to be working class.

Seriously though, sounds like great fun.
OP tnewmark 20 Dec 2014
In reply to DaveHK:

> No, but I consider myself to be working class.

I laughed out very loudly at this! But I forgot to mention the copy of the Guardian that we'd be bringing with us.

We're happy to forgo the roaring fire, if that makes things any easier.
 Gael Force 20 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:

I think your wife will struggle a bit...perhaps better to do lift served off piste until she improves a bit, otherwise she may not be able to ski down what she has walked up...
 OwenM 20 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:


There's the Tyrol, the Otztal or Stubai valleys are good areas for starting out. The huts aren't like that though more like simple hotels really.
In France there's the Vanoise or Maritime Alps, I think you'll find more un-maned huts here.
In Italy you could look at the Dolomites (not so many glaciers which simplifies things) or the Ortler.

Skill wise you will need good Alpine climbing skills especially glacier travel and avalanche awareness as well as off piste skiing. With only one weeks skiing your wife might find it rough going, you could put her off for life. You might be better off staying at a resort and trying day tours off the back of the piste to dip your toes in as it were. Then if you find the off piste too much or the snow not so good you can always retreat back to the piste. Just a thought.

 DaveHK 20 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:

It might be better to scale back the learning curve a bit. Getting into alpine touring without guiding or instruction is perfectly feasible but there's lots to take on board just with the skiing (up and down) side of things never mind all the hill skills you also say you want to practice.

If you're really not confident with self arrest and all the other stuff you mention then get confident with that either through instruction or cautious self-teaching. Once you're happy with that go touring.

I'm also not sure about the idea that you need to be a good piste skier before going touring. As long as you've got the mountaineering skills to make the right judgements and pick appropriate tours then it needn't be a problem.
bobhitch 20 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:

Nice idea but perhaps a little romanticised :0) .
Most huts are in the back of beyond so getting there without previous experience and guideless would be the first obstacle. You'd also have to carry a lot of stuff to be able to cook 'nice' meals.
With little experience ,how are you going to conduct self arrest techniques,ropework and snow pack testing ?
Surely you need a mountain guide to teach you the basic skills .My advice would be to hire a guide -split the cost between 4 and it becomes quite reasonable, or go on a recognised ski touring skills week trip for beginners.
cheers,Bob
 Misha 20 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:
Look for huts close to the road which are not in glaciated terrain.

Worth paying for a day or two of instruction, specifically kick turns and going up icy slopes. Unless your friend is good at that already.
 Doug 21 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:

I started touring almost as soon as I started skiing, but short day trips (mostly Cairngorms & Deeside) & quickly realised that piste skiing was the quickest way to learn to ski downhill, much as I disliked ski resorts & especially Scottish ski resorts at weekends.

But just managing to get down pisted red runs suggests she will struggle on any but the easiest of tours & probably get very frustrated, especially if the rest of the group can quickly ski down slopes where she struggles. Have you considered nordic touring either in Norway or places like the Vercor or the Jura ?
 rogersavery 21 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:

http://gsbernard.net/

My wife 1st ski touring experience was to the monastery at col du grand St. Bernard

Easy place to get to and ski down from (you can ski back down the Italian side and get a taxi back.

We were only there for 1 night, put others where doing day tours from there
 Carolyn 21 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:

You explained your skiing experience, but I'm not sure what your winter mountaineering skills are like? Makes quite a difference if you're well able to look after yourself in the mountains or not!

I think more than the odd short day ski touring might be a bit much after just a week's skiing, but it might be possible. It's also worth looking at places like the Pyrenees, although the huts I've used there have been considerably more basic than your description
 Stu McInnes 21 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:

Sounds like a wicked trip plan you have! Like others have said, might be worth going to a resort where you have lift accessed backcountry with the option of staying in a hut for a day or 2 towards the end of the trip... Experiential learning can be really really good - or absolutely terrible!

If you had time before your trip it may be worth practising the Mountaineering skills in isolation, for a weekend in Scotland say, with an Instructor like ahem - myself... (sorry!) Learning to use crampons, an ice axe, intemperate the snow pack, crevasse rescue and some navigation are skills that can and will save your life, so very worthwhile getting dialled before your in the deep end so to speak... So your partner would acquire the skills to keep herself safe without needing to worry about the skiing.
In reply to tnewmark:

In general the plan sounds great.

I would spend a couple of days with a guide to learn the avalanche risk assessment side of things; whilst you can learn the theory from a book, on the ground experience is invaluable. There subtlety to it that I don't think you get from being self taught. As an example I was out with a guide who pointed to a patch of snow that looked identical to the rest of the slope to me but triggered when he went near it.

Avalanche risk assessment suffers from it being a low occurrence event; even if you are off with your risk assessment in most cases you will get away with it just through chance. Without instruction the tendency is to rebaseline this as 'safe' behaviour, until the day your luck runs out that is.

 jonnie3430 21 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:
My first trip was the Silvretta traverse described in one of the two Cicerone guide for the alps. It was 9 days long, hut-to-hut (all food and bedding provided,) and wasn't hard or too dodgy. On bad days we'd speak to the guides and hut staff about options and generally moved with the crowd on the tour. I think it goes from Galtur to Ischgl. I'd recommend this if you can afford it (about 50 to 60 euros a night,) the days aren't too long, so there is lots of scope to take your time on the way and there are a couple of peaks that can be done too. One of the others in the group was new to skiing, so fast uphill, but slow down and picked it up fast as well.
Post edited at 16:26
OP tnewmark 22 Dec 2014

Thanks so much for your advice and suggestions everyone.

Having a think about it, I think the general consensus that we're planning on trying too much is right.

My wife enjoyed the week of skiing she did, but what she is most enthusiastic about is 1. Getting away from the crowds, and 2. Going uphill. I, on the other hand, like to do both of those, but also rather enjoy the downhill part as well! To do this together, we obviously need to ensure that she has the ability to get back down, and so I think some more piste skiing is necessary. We had talked about nordic touring, and while I think that my wife would possibly prefer that at the moment, I worry it would leave be slightly unsatisfied (in fact, I have done it in Canada and it did).

The week's skiing we had last year was in Morzine, and our friend did go off and do a day tour on his own in the Vallee de la Manche. So I think something like that might be one idea. I still very much enjoy working on my technique on the piste, and my wife would be able to do a bit more of that, and we could then get a lesson or two to help us with off-piste. Maybe by the end of the week we could look at doing a half day tour together.

I also take the point about the guide. I've done a little trad climbing, some general summer walking, but I've done nothing in regards to winter walking or mountaineering. Another possibility, which we'd also thought about, would be for us to spend the week that we have on a winter mountaineering course. I'm not all against guides and instruction, in fact I very much value it, and I guess it could be a quicker way to get to the point where I feel more confident myself. What I didn't mention was that our friend has done a lot more mountaineering, although I know he was keen in the past in getting some more professional instruction.

Basically then, the priorities are to A. Start learning the winter skills we need, and B. Ensure that my wife can ski better. After this, my rather romantic original plan might be feasible.

So, I appreciate all the advice that we need to take it a little slower. I'll talk to my wife and see what she thinks. Thanks again everyone.
Post edited at 08:44
bobhitch 22 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:
We are in Morzine right now - beautiful today , clear blue and temperature hovering around freezing - perfect for skiing except there's bugger all snow :0(.
If you are planning to come back here the day tour out of the top of the vallee de la manche that your friend did is perfect - I'm guessing it was col de coux ? - very gentle up and down with minimal risk and certainly feels like you are away from the crowds also the tete du bostan is good but I would advise you to take a guide on that one .
Both fun day tours to let your wife get a feel for it.
cheers,Bob
 Flashy 23 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:

It almost sounds like Canada would be a better bet -- plenty of huts a few hours of (hard with all the books and food!) skinning from roadheads (if you have a 4WD) that are in non-glaciated, often wooded, terrain that would be perfect for this sort of thing. My experience in the Alps has been that they are mostly around glaciated terrain unfortunately, but that's just my own experience (and/or bad memory).

Norway might suit very well, though it would be expensive. Have a look at touring guidebooks for northern Italy too.
 mlt 23 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:

Great idea I think. This is how I started. I'm only an intermediate (at most) piste skier, but I pretty much started off with a cheap set of touring skis and headed to the Sierra Nevada early Spring with a friend back in '08 taking it easy. That's how I've done it ever since, but I've never done any difficult/challenging tours. I always figured that learning everything for yourself is the best way. Maybe it's a bit 'old school', but wasn't that how people used to do it?
 Doug 23 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:

> ...We had talked about nordic touring, and while I think that my wife would possibly prefer that at the moment, I worry it would leave be slightly unsatisfied (in fact, I have done it in Canada and it did).

Not sure where you went nordic touring in Canada (the term covers a wide range of activities, I was thinking of nordic cambered but steel edged skis in the mountains but avoiding steep slopes) but somewhere like the Jotunheim is pretty mountainous but allows easy tours between huts (wardened & un wardened ) plus some summits if conditions are good (e.g. Galdhopigen, Glittertind, both possible on nordic skis)
OP tnewmark 23 Dec 2014
In reply to Doug:

My apologies, I had mistakenly assumed that nordic skiing was the same as cross-country skiing, which I think I did in Canada, through trails in a forest. What you are describing sounds more up my street, and it might be a pleasant introduction to touring. Thanks for the suggestion.
 d_b 23 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:
Ultimate quick intro to ski touring: Buy skis, fill a rucsac with malt loaf and have a helicopter drop you into the middle of Baffin Island or Greenland. If you get to safety before the food runs out then you probably have potential.

For budget options try Hardangervidda, Finland or Kent.

This may not be recommended by genuine experts.
Post edited at 14:34
 randomsabreur 23 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:

As a compromise (not budget) some of the huts around the Sella Ronda are on pistes rather than down valleys so good compromise if the resort experience is what you're trying to avoid. Could even go hut to hut but skiing with a pack less fun if not confident doing so.

As a 5 week skier happy on most pistes including blacks I don't like skiing with more than a light 6l pack as it throws my balance off and makes me more likely to get in the back seat..
 Cathy 29 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:

Consider a ski week in Andorra. (I live there, I toured 80+ days this year, this is a serious suggestion). Pleasant little ski resorts for your wife to work on technique and ski confidence. Various easy valleys for gentle tours. No glaciers! And lower altitude. Removes various of the problems of the Alps. Roads in Andorra go high and are ploughed quickly, you can tour from the car park. (Also worth knowing, you are allowed to skin up the side of the piste at Andorran resorts, you can start out of a resort and then explore nearby.) With a solid stem turn and the ability to side-slip, you can tour successfully on easier ground, despite limited ski technique.
You could easily do half day in resort plus simple tours nearby. And stay in a nice hotel somewhere. Message me if you want more specific suggestions.
I run a Facebook page in English called SkiTourPyrenees, if you want more info. (I'm not a guide, the FB page is just a source of info for tourers, not selling anything).
Tim Chappell 29 Dec 2014
In reply to tnewmark:
I agree with others about (1) making sure you all have the general Alpine-mountaineering skills (this is essential--or you could all die...), (2) not pushing her too fast, and (3) maybe starting with just one day's ski-touring to see how she likes it, and if she does then pushing out for a week?

Here's a further argument for (3): the first time I ever ski-toured, in Canada, I had a really grim time because my boots didn't fit all that well. I got blisters on my blisters within hours of starting. It was miserably painful: at every step the fronts of the boots were whacking down on to the open wounds that had formed on my shins. All weekend. And when you're in that much pain, you can't really ski very well; your turns become pretty sloppy, and everything falls to bits. Which is really not good when you are in serious enough terrain to need to be skiing right at the top of your game.

So I'd say, don't get your wife committed to a long and arduous trip on skis until you know for sure that her boots won't give her hell. Getting boots that fit takes time and costs money. There is really no way round this; you just have to do it, I'm afraid.


PS The biggest difference between piste-skiing and ski-touring that I've noticed is the sheer importance, when ski-touring, of being really good at side-slipping. Because when you are touring, especially on big mountains, you are going to meet ice. Lots of ice. Often in places (like steep narrow gullies) where it is really not too tempting to try a turn...
Post edited at 00:11
 sam1971 01 Jan 2015
In reply to tnewmark:

Hi Tom

Great idea. An ideal spot for this would be to book the unguarded Tre la Saix hut in the Chablais (not far from Les Gets, Morzine). The hut access is simple, slopes are all gentle, it is ideally located with 2 easy & low altitude summits plus the little plateau in front of the hut is perfect for practising the techniques you mention.

Link to the hut info here: http://www.refuges.info/point/3198/cabane-non-gardee/chablais/chalet-de-tre...

The hut sleeps max 15 so you'd have to contact them to see if a smaller group is ok.

Cheers

Sam

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