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Would people agree that it would not be "best practice" to take a novice winter climber on an established summer classic, rock route for their first winter climb?
I would hope that these folk have climbed the route in summer conditions and feel ashamed from seeing the amount of damage that is being caused by these winter ascents.
If no remorse is felt, well, as they say, it's only a piece of rock!
: ) must be getting old.
I would hope that these folk have climbed the route in summer conditions and feel ashamed from seeing the amount of damage that is being caused by these winter ascents.
If no remorse is felt, well, as they say, it's only a piece of rock!
: ) must be getting old.
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In reply to petegunn:
not sure even full winter fig protects lakes rock to any important degree - winter climbing (with tools) rock routes is fun but damaging
not sure even full winter fig protects lakes rock to any important degree - winter climbing (with tools) rock routes is fun but damaging
In reply to petegunn:
I think you have a just cause for a moan.
This could be a major ethical debate for the early part of 2015 for UKC.
If the Winter is thin and non consolidated. Frustration will get the better of folk and it will develop into a rich harvest of slanging matches. Just what does "in nick" actually mean?
I think you have a just cause for a moan.
This could be a major ethical debate for the early part of 2015 for UKC.
If the Winter is thin and non consolidated. Frustration will get the better of folk and it will develop into a rich harvest of slanging matches. Just what does "in nick" actually mean?
In reply to John Kelly:
I have to agree hoar is not bulletproof and i'd wager, taking turf out of the equation, full winter nic or minimal nic has the same impact on rock route without ice.
I have to agree hoar is not bulletproof and i'd wager, taking turf out of the equation, full winter nic or minimal nic has the same impact on rock route without ice.
In reply to petegunn:
I think the climbers who were there on the day, could see the conditions and knew one another's abilities were best placed to decide that, and those that were not there on the day and do not know the two climbers involved have nowhere near enough information to make an informed decision.
I think the climbers who were there on the day, could see the conditions and knew one another's abilities were best placed to decide that, and those that were not there on the day and do not know the two climbers involved have nowhere near enough information to make an informed decision.
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In reply to petegunn:
What route were you referring to and when? I can't tell whether you are referring to a specific experience or just having a grumble about a fictional scenario.
What route were you referring to and when? I can't tell whether you are referring to a specific experience or just having a grumble about a fictional scenario.
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In reply to Exile:
Having tried to climb a bit higher in the Lakes the next day, I'm jealous that they found it frozen. We followed crampons prints up the scramble we did (without crampons) and it had been logged as winter climb the day before, yet other people were saying that on Monday nothing was frozen. I guess it just shows people have different ideas on what 'in' means. But of course Gable Crag could have been frozen - steeper stuff seem to freeze faster in some cases - when nothing around Helvellyn was. I see a number of people ticked Reade's Route on Grib Goch on the same days and that might be similar - as others in Snowdonia were reporting no frozen turf where they had been. The issue of stripping non-frozen turf seems a bigger one than how neatly a novice climber can climb a VI to me at least.
Having tried to climb a bit higher in the Lakes the next day, I'm jealous that they found it frozen. We followed crampons prints up the scramble we did (without crampons) and it had been logged as winter climb the day before, yet other people were saying that on Monday nothing was frozen. I guess it just shows people have different ideas on what 'in' means. But of course Gable Crag could have been frozen - steeper stuff seem to freeze faster in some cases - when nothing around Helvellyn was. I see a number of people ticked Reade's Route on Grib Goch on the same days and that might be similar - as others in Snowdonia were reporting no frozen turf where they had been. The issue of stripping non-frozen turf seems a bigger one than how neatly a novice climber can climb a VI to me at least.
In reply to petegunn:
I'd be more inclined to applaud an outstanding effort to get up a technical 7 on a first winter outing.
Can anyone actually confirm whether Engineer's Crack is actually "damaged", or is this generalised and non-informed whinging?
I'd be more inclined to applaud an outstanding effort to get up a technical 7 on a first winter outing.
Can anyone actually confirm whether Engineer's Crack is actually "damaged", or is this generalised and non-informed whinging?
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In reply to Jamie B:
Seconding tech 7 seems perfectly reasonable if you've onsighted M5+/6. Particularly if with an experienced leader who can judge conditions. Good effort I say. Well done!
Seconding tech 7 seems perfectly reasonable if you've onsighted M5+/6. Particularly if with an experienced leader who can judge conditions. Good effort I say. Well done!
In reply to petegunn:
Novices can do wonderful things. 29th was the day recently for winter climbing here. Engineers comes in very quickly.
I introduced a friend to winter climbing, his 2nd route was slav route.
I believe you may be trolling for the annual scratching rant
Novices can do wonderful things. 29th was the day recently for winter climbing here. Engineers comes in very quickly.
I introduced a friend to winter climbing, his 2nd route was slav route.
I believe you may be trolling for the annual scratching rant
In reply to TobyA:
I think Brown Cove Crags / Red Tarn Face don't come in as quickly as people think because the routes are generally easier angled so hold more snow, so insulate turf. Often more snow falls on the Helvellyn area than further west which again, particularly if the snow hasn't been proceeded by a hard freeze or cold easterlies, adds to the insulating effect. Some of the crags further west are steeper and get less snow, so I think can actually come into condition more quickly. (I climbed a steeper route on the 13th of December on Cambridge Crag which was in good nick while people were saying Brown Cove did not have frozen turf.) Sorry if this sounds a bit 'teaching to suck eggs', it's just to put my thoughts on Engineers in context.
The following is a photo taken of Scafell on the same day:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=250536
Gable is effectively the highest steep winter crag in the Lakes as the crag base is slightly higher than Scafell. Also Engineer Slab starts half way up the crag - I'd guess the route base at about 820m ish. Add to this that it's steep and an established rock route, (so not much turf, and that which is there will not have been buried under snow,) and I think there is a reasonable chance it will have been in as long as it was cosmetically white enough, which I think it could have been given the photo of Scafell.
I think Brown Cove Crags / Red Tarn Face don't come in as quickly as people think because the routes are generally easier angled so hold more snow, so insulate turf. Often more snow falls on the Helvellyn area than further west which again, particularly if the snow hasn't been proceeded by a hard freeze or cold easterlies, adds to the insulating effect. Some of the crags further west are steeper and get less snow, so I think can actually come into condition more quickly. (I climbed a steeper route on the 13th of December on Cambridge Crag which was in good nick while people were saying Brown Cove did not have frozen turf.) Sorry if this sounds a bit 'teaching to suck eggs', it's just to put my thoughts on Engineers in context.
The following is a photo taken of Scafell on the same day:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=250536
Gable is effectively the highest steep winter crag in the Lakes as the crag base is slightly higher than Scafell. Also Engineer Slab starts half way up the crag - I'd guess the route base at about 820m ish. Add to this that it's steep and an established rock route, (so not much turf, and that which is there will not have been buried under snow,) and I think there is a reasonable chance it will have been in as long as it was cosmetically white enough, which I think it could have been given the photo of Scafell.
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In reply to Exile:
high, steep, very little turf (iirc), on 29th I think it's in climbable condition - the bigger question is should we be climbing 3 star rock routes with tools in a country with very little rock - maybe TobyA is pointing way forward climbing wintery rock routes without tools.
high, steep, very little turf (iirc), on 29th I think it's in climbable condition - the bigger question is should we be climbing 3 star rock routes with tools in a country with very little rock - maybe TobyA is pointing way forward climbing wintery rock routes without tools.
In reply to Exile:
yeah, Brown Cove looked reasonably white, and the upper half the crag was properly hoared up - although the hoar was actually dripping when you got close to it. Nevertheless, if the turf had been frozen, I would have been happy climbing it as a "winter route" - it looked a lot like various Southern Highland routes I've done in the dim and distant past. It was also MFB's photos from the day before that persuaded me that the drive up was worth it!
As I said, Reade's Route on Grib Goch got climbed a couple of times when other people were saying no turf was frozen in Snowdonia (although I'm told there is virtually no turf on Reade's anyway) - whichever way, it definitely looks wintery in the photos. Maybe a similar case - although I'm a bit sceptical about people saying "oh, this is a snowed up rock route, there's virtually no turf on it. So it doesn't matter if its not totally frozen", I suppose that's a self fulfilling prophecy.
yeah, Brown Cove looked reasonably white, and the upper half the crag was properly hoared up - although the hoar was actually dripping when you got close to it. Nevertheless, if the turf had been frozen, I would have been happy climbing it as a "winter route" - it looked a lot like various Southern Highland routes I've done in the dim and distant past. It was also MFB's photos from the day before that persuaded me that the drive up was worth it!
As I said, Reade's Route on Grib Goch got climbed a couple of times when other people were saying no turf was frozen in Snowdonia (although I'm told there is virtually no turf on Reade's anyway) - whichever way, it definitely looks wintery in the photos. Maybe a similar case - although I'm a bit sceptical about people saying "oh, this is a snowed up rock route, there's virtually no turf on it. So it doesn't matter if its not totally frozen", I suppose that's a self fulfilling prophecy.
Post edited at 22:59
In reply to Exile:
Pretty much boils down to the fact that if enough people care enough about a classic rock climb then nobody would dare climb it in winter and if they did the FWA would take such a beasting that no-one would ever consider it again.
In this case it seems you missed you chance to stand up and complain.
That said I'm all for generalised winging..
Things were climbed in wales on 30th that shouldnt have been, however toby the steep crags above 800m were good to go on 28th -29th. See V12 blog for pics of Pete Harrison's new route... We were spectating.. STEEEEP...! I'll also add that only rock routes were climbed. Nobody gambled on the turf.
You can see how rimed it was.. and No of course the rime doesn't protect the rock jas.. but its important to maintain ethical standards that we (the majority) all agree apon or noddy will be out with his spikes on after a bit of hail.
If we dont agree on standards then one day someone called Calum Nicoll might think its OK to dry-tool embankment 2... errm...
As for the novice argument... could that simply be the little green monster?
You snooze you loose!
Pretty much boils down to the fact that if enough people care enough about a classic rock climb then nobody would dare climb it in winter and if they did the FWA would take such a beasting that no-one would ever consider it again.
In this case it seems you missed you chance to stand up and complain.
That said I'm all for generalised winging..
Things were climbed in wales on 30th that shouldnt have been, however toby the steep crags above 800m were good to go on 28th -29th. See V12 blog for pics of Pete Harrison's new route... We were spectating.. STEEEEP...! I'll also add that only rock routes were climbed. Nobody gambled on the turf.
You can see how rimed it was.. and No of course the rime doesn't protect the rock jas.. but its important to maintain ethical standards that we (the majority) all agree apon or noddy will be out with his spikes on after a bit of hail.
If we dont agree on standards then one day someone called Calum Nicoll might think its OK to dry-tool embankment 2... errm...
As for the novice argument... could that simply be the little green monster?
You snooze you loose!
In reply to wolf.leeb:
Yeah - Ian said that turf under snow, or thick turf wasn't frozen the day they did that route.
Like I said, these distinction are so often marginal. People like Ian and Pete know exactly what they're doing, and you hope that with the work the BMC and others have done in recent years about understanding conditions, more and more winter climbers do also. Where I went to try and do a route the guidebook actually notes the presence of rare alpine plants, so you are pretty sensitive to why things should be proper frozen. I'm not overly bothered by scratches, but that's just me. Damaging rare flora if climbing when its not frozen is the bigger issue to my mind.
> Things were climbed in wales on 30th that shouldnt have been, however toby the steep crags above 800m were good to go on 28th -29th. See V12 blog for pics of Pete Harrison's new route...
Yeah - Ian said that turf under snow, or thick turf wasn't frozen the day they did that route.
Like I said, these distinction are so often marginal. People like Ian and Pete know exactly what they're doing, and you hope that with the work the BMC and others have done in recent years about understanding conditions, more and more winter climbers do also. Where I went to try and do a route the guidebook actually notes the presence of rare alpine plants, so you are pretty sensitive to why things should be proper frozen. I'm not overly bothered by scratches, but that's just me. Damaging rare flora if climbing when its not frozen is the bigger issue to my mind.
In reply to wolf.leeb:
I don't think the conditions are at issue really (except to keep us all from watching snow white running round langdale)
When Davison (FWA) climbed Engineers there would of only been a small contingent of folk talented and visionary enough to get on it. Today with the mass marketing of efficient, sexy tools to the masses and the brilliance of rock pro this type of route is possible for many more folk. The 'damage' may be something we agree to accept but the argument that damage is contingent on the conditions is not, in my view true, whatever the weather tools hammer rock routes
Gable on 29th
https://www.facebook.com/NTLakescampsites/photos/pcb.880069238681513/880068...
I don't think the conditions are at issue really (except to keep us all from watching snow white running round langdale)
When Davison (FWA) climbed Engineers there would of only been a small contingent of folk talented and visionary enough to get on it. Today with the mass marketing of efficient, sexy tools to the masses and the brilliance of rock pro this type of route is possible for many more folk. The 'damage' may be something we agree to accept but the argument that damage is contingent on the conditions is not, in my view true, whatever the weather tools hammer rock routes
Gable on 29th
https://www.facebook.com/NTLakescampsites/photos/pcb.880069238681513/880068...
Post edited at 23:32
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In reply to TobyA:
I'm not sure i totally buy the veggie argument, my understanding is that none of these plants are endemic, they may be locally rare but globally widespread. That said i wouldn't want to get on unfrozen flora.
I'm a bit anti scratch
I'm not sure i totally buy the veggie argument, my understanding is that none of these plants are endemic, they may be locally rare but globally widespread. That said i wouldn't want to get on unfrozen flora.
I'm a bit anti scratch
Post edited at 23:36
In reply to John Kelly:
Gable Crag looked in great condition on the 28th: https://www.flickr.com/photos/36933645@N06/15944423759/lightbox/
Engineer's Slab is pretty scratched up now, and no doubt in another 10 years will be more so. It also seemed to me that various blocks and flakes have been loosened by winter ascents. Anybody who has climbed Bowfell Buttress will realise that with enough traffic scratching becomes proper damage. Personally I'm in two minds whether winter ascents of these summer classics are justifiable. We should at least be honest about the long term sustainability problems that the increased popularity (and standards) of winter climbing is causing though.
Gable Crag looked in great condition on the 28th: https://www.flickr.com/photos/36933645@N06/15944423759/lightbox/
Engineer's Slab is pretty scratched up now, and no doubt in another 10 years will be more so. It also seemed to me that various blocks and flakes have been loosened by winter ascents. Anybody who has climbed Bowfell Buttress will realise that with enough traffic scratching becomes proper damage. Personally I'm in two minds whether winter ascents of these summer classics are justifiable. We should at least be honest about the long term sustainability problems that the increased popularity (and standards) of winter climbing is causing though.
In reply to GPN:
Nothing to add to that, completely agree with you, particularly sustainability long term
Good pic
Nothing to add to that, completely agree with you, particularly sustainability long term
Good pic
In reply to petegunn:
The gist of this seems to be:
Very experienced winter climber takes keen talented child out on a winter climb on an established winter classic in decent condition.
The gist of this seems to be:
Very experienced winter climber takes keen talented child out on a winter climb on an established winter classic in decent condition.
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In reply to Aonach:
That's pretty much how I read it. Surely Engineer's must get almost as many winter ascents as summer these days, do they really still hold outrage status?
> The gist of this seems to be:
> Very experienced winter climber takes keen talented child out on a winter climb on an established winter classic in decent condition.
> Very experienced winter climber takes keen talented child out on a winter climb on an established winter classic in decent condition.
That's pretty much how I read it. Surely Engineer's must get almost as many winter ascents as summer these days, do they really still hold outrage status?
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In reply to John Kelly:
Different arguments as you point out. I was simply putting the point forward that the route could well have been in winter nick and the team who climbed it up to it.
In relation to what 'should' or 'shouldn't' be climbed in winter this:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/new-lakes-winter-climbing-conditions-guide
was drawn up last season by a number of climbers. Some feel it goes too far, some not far enough.
Different arguments as you point out. I was simply putting the point forward that the route could well have been in winter nick and the team who climbed it up to it.
In relation to what 'should' or 'shouldn't' be climbed in winter this:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/new-lakes-winter-climbing-conditions-guide
was drawn up last season by a number of climbers. Some feel it goes too far, some not far enough.
In reply to Aonach:
An excellent summary. The only thing I'd add is that looking at the photos on Nicole's FB page, the route was in very very very very decent winter condition!
An excellent summary. The only thing I'd add is that looking at the photos on Nicole's FB page, the route was in very very very very decent winter condition!
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In reply to Simon Yearsley:
I suspect the only hesitation that some of us have was that other routes were snowy and nicely hoared up those days but the turf still wasn't frozen. But as I said, I didn't climb on that crag myself, so if they say if was frozen I wouldn't argue - just surprised!
I suspect the only hesitation that some of us have was that other routes were snowy and nicely hoared up those days but the turf still wasn't frozen. But as I said, I didn't climb on that crag myself, so if they say if was frozen I wouldn't argue - just surprised!
In reply to petegunn:
Knowing the climbers involved, I would not cast doubt on the leader's judgement regarding whether a route is 'in' or not - he is a very experienced winter climber who is careful with ethics. I also suspect that the second did not find the route particularly hard and hence would not readily assume that this ascent added any more damage than any other ascent would have done in similar conditions.
Knowing the climbers involved, I would not cast doubt on the leader's judgement regarding whether a route is 'in' or not - he is a very experienced winter climber who is careful with ethics. I also suspect that the second did not find the route particularly hard and hence would not readily assume that this ascent added any more damage than any other ascent would have done in similar conditions.
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In reply to TobyA:
Not sure that there is any turf on Engineer's - I got the impression that it was very much a snowed-up rock route. Unfortunately there are those who will simply never accept routes of this idiom when they follow existing summer lines. I've never entirely understood why this is so.
Not sure that there is any turf on Engineer's - I got the impression that it was very much a snowed-up rock route. Unfortunately there are those who will simply never accept routes of this idiom when they follow existing summer lines. I've never entirely understood why this is so.
In reply to Jamie B:
the reason is very simple, people are looking at the effect of the last 15 yrs of winter traffic and beginning to wonder what we will have left in 30 yrs.
the reason is very simple, people are looking at the effect of the last 15 yrs of winter traffic and beginning to wonder what we will have left in 30 yrs.
In reply to Aonach:
very true and in the grand scheme of things the 'damage' caused by tools is minimal in the landscape but 40 yrs ago we ditched pegging, in part, because we perceived the damage as unacceptable, we may be in a similar position today.
very true and in the grand scheme of things the 'damage' caused by tools is minimal in the landscape but 40 yrs ago we ditched pegging, in part, because we perceived the damage as unacceptable, we may be in a similar position today.
Post edited at 20:08
In reply to TobyA:
Just spoken to Nicole. Turf was frozen. Very well frozen.
Knowing Dave (and Nicole), I know he'd never consider climbing a cliff that wasn't in condition and not frozen, and he's walked away from cliffs in Scotland and the Lakes many times 'cos they weren't in condition.
Just spoken to Nicole. Turf was frozen. Very well frozen.
Knowing Dave (and Nicole), I know he'd never consider climbing a cliff that wasn't in condition and not frozen, and he's walked away from cliffs in Scotland and the Lakes many times 'cos they weren't in condition.
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In reply to Simon Yearsley:
I think most people would accept that
in addition
https://www.flickr.com/photos/36933645@N06/15944423759/lightbox/
I think most people would accept that
in addition
https://www.flickr.com/photos/36933645@N06/15944423759/lightbox/
In reply to Simon Yearsley:
I don't think anybody's doubting that the crag was in conditition (or that this wasn't a good effort!). It's also good to see that this hasn't descended into a personal slagging match! I think the debate about whether winter ascents of 3 star classic rock routes are acceptable is perfectly valid though.
I don't think anybody's doubting that the crag was in conditition (or that this wasn't a good effort!). It's also good to see that this hasn't descended into a personal slagging match! I think the debate about whether winter ascents of 3 star classic rock routes are acceptable is perfectly valid though.
In reply to GPN:
It seems extremely unlikey that people will stop. Attempting to ban winter ascents of rock route in condition is the opposite end of the drytooling grit see-saw
It seems extremely unlikey that people will stop. Attempting to ban winter ascents of rock route in condition is the opposite end of the drytooling grit see-saw
In reply to Aonach:
> It seems extremely unlikey that people will stop. Attempting to ban winter ascents of rock route in condition is the opposite end of the drytooling grit see-saw
it may appear that way today but i don't think climbers in the early 60's would have considered the demise of pegging within ten years likely, there was a change in attitude and technology.
I don't think that it would take a lot to change the attitude to this because there is so obviously an issue with the destructive way we treat rock at the moment
however it's not clear to me what technological change will allow people to continue to have their winter 'fix' without damaging the environment that provides the challenge.
It is clear that scratching with nomics will not be the final word in winter mountaineering and in time a new branch of the climbing game will evolve.
The real issue is what will be left to climb on and how will the next generation regard our efforts
> It seems extremely unlikey that people will stop. Attempting to ban winter ascents of rock route in condition is the opposite end of the drytooling grit see-saw
it may appear that way today but i don't think climbers in the early 60's would have considered the demise of pegging within ten years likely, there was a change in attitude and technology.
I don't think that it would take a lot to change the attitude to this because there is so obviously an issue with the destructive way we treat rock at the moment
however it's not clear to me what technological change will allow people to continue to have their winter 'fix' without damaging the environment that provides the challenge.
It is clear that scratching with nomics will not be the final word in winter mountaineering and in time a new branch of the climbing game will evolve.
The real issue is what will be left to climb on and how will the next generation regard our efforts
In reply to John Kelly:
Folk have been climbing 'mixed' routes in Scotland since the 60s. Sometimes on 4* summer routes.
Folk have been climbing 'mixed' routes in Scotland since the 60s. Sometimes on 4* summer routes.
In reply to Aonach:
aye but only in very small numbers in a very big forum, think the compact nature of lakes has brought the issue to the fore
aye but only in very small numbers in a very big forum, think the compact nature of lakes has brought the issue to the fore
Post edited at 21:10
In reply to Simon Yearsley:
Doubly annoyed that I missed conditions by a day then! That's happened twice this winter now, because I had plans to try a route in Wales before Xmas, but in the end couldn't make it on this day http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=250028 and by the next day when I could go, it was raining! Doh.
Doubly annoyed that I missed conditions by a day then! That's happened twice this winter now, because I had plans to try a route in Wales before Xmas, but in the end couldn't make it on this day http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=250028 and by the next day when I could go, it was raining! Doh.
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In reply to Exile:
<sarcasm> Yeah, cheers. </sarcasm> Actually my mates in Finland were all moaning that at least in the south it only started freezing on Christmas day, so the ice has only been around for a week or so now: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=250507 Still pretty skinny.
> Welcome back from Scandinavia Toby!
<sarcasm> Yeah, cheers. </sarcasm> Actually my mates in Finland were all moaning that at least in the south it only started freezing on Christmas day, so the ice has only been around for a week or so now: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=250507 Still pretty skinny.
In reply to TobyA:
24hrs may be a long time in politics..... but it's potentially a whole season in winter climbing....
Hey ho, there's always next time.
24hrs may be a long time in politics..... but it's potentially a whole season in winter climbing....
Hey ho, there's always next time.
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In reply to GPN:
Thanks GPN and MFB. The "... debate about whether winter ascents of 3 star classic rock routes are acceptable..." is always a good one. Personally, having grown up in the Lakes, started my winter climbing here 37 years ago, been winter climbing in Scotland and Wales for the past 25 years, I have seen a lot of changes in the sport, and I do think the Lakes has an advantage... it has a documented guidance on winter climbing. Page 5 has the agreed list of crags/crag areas to avoid, page 10 has the sensible 7-Point Code For Winter Climbers. (which, for the record, in my view, Dave and Nicole's ascent ticked all 7).
This is a big move forwards given the compact nature of the Lakes and the volume of climbers in the honeypot areas. What it doesn't have is any specific reference to whether this guidance means that "...winter ascents of 3 star classic rock routes are acceptable..." So be it.
In my view (for what it’s worth), the guidance in the BMC document is good enough given the rule-averse nature/background/history/culture of our climbing game. If you don't agree with it, or don't think it goes far enough, then get involved and push for another iteration. In my view, I think it is enough for us to work with the guidance, tread lightly, tread responsibly, and enjoy the game we play.
Thanks GPN and MFB. The "... debate about whether winter ascents of 3 star classic rock routes are acceptable..." is always a good one. Personally, having grown up in the Lakes, started my winter climbing here 37 years ago, been winter climbing in Scotland and Wales for the past 25 years, I have seen a lot of changes in the sport, and I do think the Lakes has an advantage... it has a documented guidance on winter climbing. Page 5 has the agreed list of crags/crag areas to avoid, page 10 has the sensible 7-Point Code For Winter Climbers. (which, for the record, in my view, Dave and Nicole's ascent ticked all 7).
This is a big move forwards given the compact nature of the Lakes and the volume of climbers in the honeypot areas. What it doesn't have is any specific reference to whether this guidance means that "...winter ascents of 3 star classic rock routes are acceptable..." So be it.
In my view (for what it’s worth), the guidance in the BMC document is good enough given the rule-averse nature/background/history/culture of our climbing game. If you don't agree with it, or don't think it goes far enough, then get involved and push for another iteration. In my view, I think it is enough for us to work with the guidance, tread lightly, tread responsibly, and enjoy the game we play.
In reply to Simon Yearsley:
Thanks Simon, I'd agree with most of that. Obviously the BMC guideance does make it clear that, hypothetically, if the FWA of Engineers Slab were climbed today then it would be considered unacceptable though:
"In addition to the above list, there will also be a general presumption against recording future first winter ascents of any existing high quality rock climbs (** and *** for instance) unless they are natural ice lines. Such climbs may no longer receive official recognition."
George.
Thanks Simon, I'd agree with most of that. Obviously the BMC guideance does make it clear that, hypothetically, if the FWA of Engineers Slab were climbed today then it would be considered unacceptable though:
"In addition to the above list, there will also be a general presumption against recording future first winter ascents of any existing high quality rock climbs (** and *** for instance) unless they are natural ice lines. Such climbs may no longer receive official recognition."
George.
In reply to GPN:
Indeed, George. But as it wasn't (FWA today), then the acceptance is that it is (considered acceptable).
I guess my earlier suggestion still stands: "If you don't agree with it, or don't think it goes far enough, then get involved and push for another iteration".
Indeed, George. But as it wasn't (FWA today), then the acceptance is that it is (considered acceptable).
I guess my earlier suggestion still stands: "If you don't agree with it, or don't think it goes far enough, then get involved and push for another iteration".
In reply to Simon Yearsley:
very briefly
I think its important to separate the individual ascents from the principle
Lakes is better protected than other areas due to BMC guidelines which you rightly highlighted
Keeping this issue alive in this forum and others will hopefully make people aware of the guidance and with luck the approach adopted in the Lakes may gain acceptance in other areas where appropriate.
very briefly
I think its important to separate the individual ascents from the principle
Lakes is better protected than other areas due to BMC guidelines which you rightly highlighted
Keeping this issue alive in this forum and others will hopefully make people aware of the guidance and with luck the approach adopted in the Lakes may gain acceptance in other areas where appropriate.
1
In reply to John Kelly:
Looking at the worlds future in general I don't think we'll be Climbing anything in 100 years so it won't matter ! Not that I promote scratching summer rock routes but talk of banning things and the word Climbing should not be used in the same sentence ! people have been Climbing these routs for over 50 years, I don't think there going to stop however much you tell them not too , basically wasting your time
Looking at the worlds future in general I don't think we'll be Climbing anything in 100 years so it won't matter ! Not that I promote scratching summer rock routes but talk of banning things and the word Climbing should not be used in the same sentence ! people have been Climbing these routs for over 50 years, I don't think there going to stop however much you tell them not too , basically wasting your time
In reply to Colza:
not sure where you get banning from, definitely not a phrase i have used on this forum or (with the exception of my kids) in life generally
100 yrs time, i think you can be more optimistic - so far i have survived the 1970's predicted ice age, 1980's the nuclear winter and i think i'm probably going to swerve global warming with some factor 50
off climbing
cheers
john
> Looking at the worlds future in general I don't think we'll be Climbing anything in 100 years so it won't matter ! Not that I promote scratching summer rock routes but talk of banning things and the word Climbing should not be used in the same sentence ! people have been Climbing these routs for over 50 years, I don't think there going to stop however much you tell them not too , basically wasting your time
not sure where you get banning from, definitely not a phrase i have used on this forum or (with the exception of my kids) in life generally
100 yrs time, i think you can be more optimistic - so far i have survived the 1970's predicted ice age, 1980's the nuclear winter and i think i'm probably going to swerve global warming with some factor 50
off climbing
cheers
john
1
In reply to John Kelly:
Great pic of the ascent being discussed here http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=250732 Looks perfect!
Great pic of the ascent being discussed here http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=250732 Looks perfect!
In reply to TobyA:
Looks a lot better than the soggy scramble we did, eh? Was sociable on Helvellyn summit though, wasn't it? And we got to hang around looking warm and well equipped while hikers shivered and wondered what it was like under those toasty big jackets of ours*. And that old fella dragged those poor frozen kids in summer cottons to the summit.
* Missed opportunity for a hydrophobic down vs primaloft gold "freeze off".
Looks a lot better than the soggy scramble we did, eh? Was sociable on Helvellyn summit though, wasn't it? And we got to hang around looking warm and well equipped while hikers shivered and wondered what it was like under those toasty big jackets of ours*. And that old fella dragged those poor frozen kids in summer cottons to the summit.
* Missed opportunity for a hydrophobic down vs primaloft gold "freeze off".
1
In reply to BnB:
So what you are saying BnB, is next time we should stop messing around and go and do Engineer's Slab?
And I do hope those wee kids in the sweatshirts and cardigans aren't put off hiking for life!
So what you are saying BnB, is next time we should stop messing around and go and do Engineer's Slab?
And I do hope those wee kids in the sweatshirts and cardigans aren't put off hiking for life!
In reply to TobyA:
I think we ought to try Kipling Groove on Gimmer. With a name like that it's sure to take some drainage and the pub is closer to hand
I wondered the same about that poor girl. To be fair to the responsible adult, it was amazing how benign conditions proved to be just away from the summit though, wasn't it?
Sometimes a winter day turns out to be far more of a navigation and gear test than a test of climbing skill and it's good to be able to fall back on those pleasures when the conditions let you down, isn't it?
I think we ought to try Kipling Groove on Gimmer. With a name like that it's sure to take some drainage and the pub is closer to hand
I wondered the same about that poor girl. To be fair to the responsible adult, it was amazing how benign conditions proved to be just away from the summit though, wasn't it?
Sometimes a winter day turns out to be far more of a navigation and gear test than a test of climbing skill and it's good to be able to fall back on those pleasures when the conditions let you down, isn't it?
In reply to BnB:
Training for Gimmer?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=606087
maybe
Training for Gimmer?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=606087
maybe
Post edited at 09:33
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