UKC

Most 3 star first ascents?

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 tmawer 03 Jan 2015
Just looking through some of my guides looking forward to the summer and started to wonder who has done the largest number of top quality first ascents; names I notice frequently have been Pat Littlejohn, Rowland Edwards, Joe Brown, Ron Fawcett, Pete Livesey. Anyone know the answer?
In reply to tmawer:

It wouldn't surprise me if (for UK) Joe Brown came at the top of any such list.
 Sl@te Head 03 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:

Surely Gary Gibson would be up there with 3 star first ascents, but sadly also with the most 0 star and 'bag of shit' ascents as well
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 03 Jan 2015
In reply to Sl@te Head:

> Surely Gary Gibson would be up there with 3 star first ascents, but sadly also with the most 0 star and 'bag of shit' ascents as well

Possibly true, but worth remembering that Gary's system (by his own admission) runs up to 10 stars!


Chris
 JJL 03 Jan 2015
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I think as a proportion of his first ascents that might be true... but then he had the pick of the best lines and rather less competition!
 Dr.S at work 03 Jan 2015
In reply to JJL:
Colin Kirkus?
Post edited at 16:30
 DerwentDiluted 03 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:

John Allen or Johnny Dawes?
 Mick Ward 03 Jan 2015
In reply to JJL:

> I think as a proportion of his first ascents that might be true...

Agreed.


> ...but then he had the pick of the best lines and rather less competition!

Hmm... I wonder. Bonington made the point that Tramgo, for instance, looked totally ridiculous. And so many Brown/Whillans routes would have looked ridiculous at the time. It wasn't just that they were significantly harder than Javelin Blade or Harlot Face or Overlapping Wall. Often they were visually stunning (and also incredibly intimidating back then?), e.g. The Corner and The Gates in the early 50s, Quietus, Rasp and The Thing in the mid 50s, Vector in the early 60s, Mousetrap in the late 60s. For Brown to get on them, generally with minimal protection, mostly 'ground-up' as we'd now say, has always seemed pretty outrageous to me. Superb technique and 'rock awareness' must have been coupled with immense self-belief. I guess that's what greatness means...

Mick
In reply to JJL:

> I think as a proportion of his first ascents that might be true... but then he had the pick of the best lines and rather less competition!

Well, yes, whatever the reason. But I believe he had a particular kind of vision and imagination, that few climbing pioneers have. Which puts them ahead of their time. Kirkus and Dawes are two others.
 Fiend 03 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:

Crocker.
OP tmawer 03 Jan 2015
In reply to Fiend:

Perhaps, as he has been most active in areas outside where I have climbed much, I don't know his routes......what are his best known quality routes?
 spidermonkey09 03 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:

Pat Littlejohn must be up there, flicking through a Pembroke guide is ridiculous for starters.
OP tmawer 03 Jan 2015
In reply to spidermonkey09:

It was doing that that got me wondering.....all those Pembroke routes, The Axe on Cloggy etc
 John Kelly 03 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:

how does this stack up - some great routes
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=77
 FactorXXX 03 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:

Reckon it will be between the following: -

Crocker
Littlejohn
Gibson
Brown
OP tmawer 03 Jan 2015
In reply to John Kelly:

Awesome, however sadly, as he died young and therefore had a shortish career, probably not as many great routes as some longer lived climbers, or as many as he would no doubt have achieved had he lived longer.
In reply to FactorXXX:
I reckon that as proportions of their total of new routes Joe & Pat would edge it - they both have such an eye for great lines plus they have explored widely rather than just in a limited area.
Post edited at 20:11
 FactorXXX 03 Jan 2015
In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

I reckon that as proportions of their total of new routes Joe & Pat would edge it

Maybe proportionally, but for sheer number of 3 star routes, my money would probably be on Crocker.


they both have such an eye for great lines plus they have explored widely rather than just in a limited area.

Don't think Crocker or Gibson have exactly restricted themselves to a limited area!!!
 John Kelly 03 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:

In that case I'm rather hoping its Brown
 mark s 03 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:

around the western grit area simon nadin certainly put up the best routes
pasbury 05 Jan 2015
In reply to Fiend:

> Crocker.

This. He's not just done a shed load of quality stuff he's continued to explore areas and pick off plums from places like Meirionydd, Ogmore, Forest of dean, Wye Valley, Cheddar, Cadair Idris, Pembroke... even Exmoor and Llangattock! An amazingly tireless new router.
 Valkyrie1968 05 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:

What is all of this nonsense? How can a thread have had so many replies with not a single one mentioning J. W. Puttrell? Why have you forsaken us Stevie?!

For shame UKC, for shame.
 Simon Caldwell 05 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:

Barry Clarke
astley007 05 Jan 2015
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Dave Cronshaw or Les Ainsworth? from lancs..unknows (well nearly!!)..who picked off so many plumbs, mainly in lancs..but all over???
In reply to tmawer:

Lamb, Botterill, Whillance, Armstrong et. al?
 The Pylon King 07 Jan 2015
In reply to pasbury:

yep Crockers the man for sure.
Planks Constant 07 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:

Andy Nisbet?
 LakesWinter 07 Jan 2015
In reply to Planks Constant:

Yeah that is a good shout
In reply to Mick Ward:
Mick, I think you have hit the nail on the head. It is not the "availability" of the potential routes that matters, but the vision of the true pioneers. To all average climbers, of whatever generation, the great lines are all but invisible - because they look too outrageous. How many of the thousands of us who climbed Vector in the dozen years after Brown would have "seen" it at all before it was climbed? I think virtually none. I can give you another case in point. I did not "see" Big Greeny at Almscliff, at all, before John Syrett climbed it.

The great pioneers are put off by neither an intimidating appearance nor by the potential grade. I don't think the likes of Brown or Dawes are thinking in terms of potential grades at all. I know that was true of Syrett - he almost had a contempt for grades and grading (his Propellor Wall HVS! at Ilkley being a case in point). The vast proportion of ordinary climbers, like myself, owe an incredible amount to the small handful of true pioneers who have put up most of the quality routes. To take Almscliff as an example again. Thousands of climbers in Britain must have visited that crag and every Yorkshire climber dozens of times, yet 95% of the quality routes (i.e., most of the stars) on the crag have been provided by seven or so pioneers : Frankland, Dolphin, Austin, Syrett, Manson, Kitson and Hamill spread over about eight generations and eighty years.

And another thing (to pick up on another UKC thread), these pioneers all had a sufficient respect for their place in history to give their climbs decent names.
Post edited at 13:51
 Michael Gordon 08 Jan 2015
In reply to John Stainforth:

I think big lines will often have been noticed by a lot of the climbers of that time prior to the FA, it's just that most thought they'd be too hard for them.
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Often, but as John S says, often not.

In reply to the original question, I think we should be looking for a climber prolific both at new routing and at guidebook writing. On that basis I'd be amazed if it wasn't Martin Crocker, though obviously if you count his various samizdat efforts it would be Gibson G.

jcm
 jim jones 08 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:

John Dunne must be a contender if you work on the basis of new routes climbed to stars attributed.
OP tmawer 08 Jan 2015
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Certainly prolific, but not over many 3 star routes.
Post edited at 20:47
 Mick Ward 08 Jan 2015
In reply to John Stainforth:

If it's any consolation, I didn't "see" Big Greeny either, despite thinking I was pretty well au fait with the crag. And I didn't think Wellington Crack would ever go free. And I dismissed most of the east face of Cove as impossible. The list could go on well-nigh indefinitely!

As Jim Perrin noted in his Mountain review of Bancroft's 'Recent Developments', 'What blind eyes did we cast over Cratcliffe?' Jim (and others) could have done those routes.

To digress slightly: the Mountain front cover photo of John Syrett heel-hooking Encore was similarly paradigm-breaking. I'd never thought of heel-hooking, or Egyptians, or knee-bars.

I only witnessed John climbing a couple of times. I think you may have been with him once (Bulls Hollow). He remains the most charismatic climber I've ever seen.

And new route names? Yes, they're there forever. You want to do your best by the crag, give names that are at least considered, hopefully worthy.

Mick
 Simon Caldwell 08 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:

> Certainly prolific, but not over many 3 star routes.

I don't know - I think I did one of his once that deserved a star
In reply to Mick Ward:

Actually, I was John Syrett's main climbing partner for two intense years of climbing from late 1969 to summer 1971. I met John at the Leeds University climbing wall, probably within a day of my arrival, and a few days later took him out to Almscliff - our first visit there. John overtook me in climbing ability after about two weeks! (Two weeks later I went with the LUUCC to the Lake District and met Brian Hall on the bus, and he became my other main climbing partner.) In just my first year at University, I climbed with John on over forty days! I don't think I ever climbed with him on southern sandstone, although I did go to Bulls Hollow once or twice with my brother.

John was definitely the most charismatic climber I have ever met. His first ascents were usually sensational or spectacular to watch.

 Mick Ward 09 Jan 2015
In reply to John Stainforth:

I remember you well from the Leeds wall. You were pretty handy, showing us stuff we couldn't touch. Very controlled.

Watching John, on those couple of occasions, I had no idea what he was going to do next. It felt as though he was committing utterly to the rock and upward progress was happening magically. Can see him now in my mind's eye. A terrible loss.

< Apologies to people for this slight digression but the best threads seem akin to good conversation, meandering in all sorts of unlikely directions. >

Mick
Removed User 10 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:

Come on guys - it has to be Joe Brown.
Cenotaph, Gates, Llythrig, Dythlrig, Corner, Mostest, Shrike, Vector, Grasper etc, etc, etc !
"It's the stuff that dreams are made of "

0000
In reply to Removed Userboje:

... The Grooves, Left and Right Unconquerables, Great Slab at Froggatt ...
Removed User 10 Jan 2015
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

You are up early Gordon - we seem to agree that Joe's routes were the best.
In reply to Removed Userboje:

Yup, for me (now) a good day is when I start early and go to bed quite early.
Removed User 10 Jan 2015
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Unlike me who is still drinking a beer at this moment and likes to start the day late with coffee, the daily crossword and the Sudoku.
Regards,
Boje
In reply to Removed Userboje:

...that's sounds more like me! I've just this minute printed out a Killer Sudoku to do in bed as part of the waking up process, helped by coffee of course..
 Mick Ward 10 Jan 2015
In reply to Removed Userboje:

> Come on guys - it has to be Joe Brown.

> "It's the stuff that dreams are made of "

Well Boje, we've been kind of stumbling and shambling around this for quite some time now. Most three star FAs, you'd think it would have to be Gary on sheer volume alone. Ratio of three star FAs, Brown, Littlejohn, Crocker among those who were prolific or people such Dolphin whose careers were short (sadly so, in his case). And, to be a little silly, there must be someone out there who only did one FA and it was three-star so he or she gets 100%.

But if we consider 'the stuff that dreams are made of', which really underlies the whole three star notion, you are absolutely right - it has to be Brown. I cannot think of any other British climber who has produced more routes which have inspired our dreams.

You've got classic after classic after classic. With good guidebooks, good gear, good beta, people can go out, revel in the history and have fantastic days on so many great routes.

It's worth noting that they held their aura for a long time. Even in the 1970s, when I was doing some of these routes, the aura was still there, a decade or even two later. Often I didn't know anybody else who'd done a particular route; the foreboding gnawed at you. (I think it was different with close-knit groups; often somebody would be 'pushed' to break the barrier, do a particular Brown route and others would swiftly follow suit.) But for your 'Vector generation', doing relatively early repeats in the 1960s, well, that was quite something.

For the stuff of our dreams... it has to be Brown.

Mick






 Michael Gordon 10 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:

For Scotland, Smith/Marshall are probably good candidates?
 Doug 10 Jan 2015
In reply to Mick Ward:

I suspect its Brown for England & Wales but wonder if, just for Scotland, how Robin Smith &/or Jimmy Marshall would compare ? - plenty of classics, both on rock & ice.
 Michael Gordon 10 Jan 2015
In reply to Doug:

snap!
 Mick Ward 10 Jan 2015
In reply to Michael Gordon:

That's a really good point which both of you seem to have made well-nigh simultaneously. Geographically, at least, surely it makes sense to consider Scotland a separate entity? And in terms of what they achieved when they achieved it, Smith and Marshall seem fully as iconic as Brown and Whillans. All of them pushing so hard into the then-unknown.

'But I guess that those heroes must always live their lives
where you and I have only been.' (Leonard Cohen)

Mick
 Steve Perry 10 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer:
No one mentioned Dave Cuthbertson!

Looking through the Scottish Rock books - South and North - the following names come up a lot;
Dave Cuthbertson
Gary Latter
Noel Williams
Colin Moody
Julian Lines
Tom Patey
Andy Cunnigham
Ian Clough
Paul Thorburn
Rick Campbell
Kev Howett
Jimmy Marshall

I roughly (note roughly) counted Gary Latter's 3*** routes and he had 22 in the South book and 41 in the North - 63 (total) but I'd say whilst doing that Rab Anderson's name came up more, but without counting who knows.

Andy Nisbet has quite a few and I'm sure he'd win hands down if it included winter climbs. He may know who has the most classic routes to their name in Scotland.

The Gary Latter books don't cover lots of crags and areas in Scotland.
Post edited at 13:01
 wbo 10 Jan 2015
In reply to tmawer: i have never seen list of how many new routes Brown , Littlejohn et al have climbed.

Brown routes are undoubtedly amazing but for shes volume of start I'd be thinking Littlejohn or possibly Crocker just for the volume of new routes in all areas. The only thing that might hold the number back is that many are multipitch (but only one route)

OP tmawer 10 Jan 2015
In reply to wbo:

Surprising this is not known......there seems to be lists of everything else!
 FactorXXX 10 Jan 2015
In reply to wbo:

i have never seen list of how many new routes Brown , Littlejohn et al have climbed.

There's some information about Joe Browns routes in the Joe Brown shop website.
 Michael Gordon 10 Jan 2015
In reply to Steve Perry:

Many of those will have done far more 3* routes than Smith/Marshall, but will also have done a lot of less good ones. With those two it seems like a high proportion of their routes have become the big mountain classics that spring immediately to mind nowadays. Of course then it was a different era when single pitch crags (the easiest way to get lots of new routes done) were rarely thought worth putting much time into developing.

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