UKC

whats the general consensus with the ethics of pitons in winter?

In reply to 6b-east:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/is-there-a-future-for-pegs-in-british-climbing

In reply to Mountain Llama:


That article's about in-situ piton strength - not related to ethics of winter use as far as I can tell.

In reply to Mountain Llama:

i agree, looking more for the ethics of them as pro for winter climbing.

In reply to 6b-east:
As long as it isn't an established rock route and knowing my second would be removing it, I don't mind placing them. But would still be keen to look for other alternatives before I resorted to a peg.

In reply to 6b-east:

I would use pitons if there were no better alternative.

I carry a couple just in case. Haven't used them at all in the past six years. Except once. That was last year when the route topped out on a steep scree and heather hillside where a piton was the only possible protection for a belay.

... and then I realised that a hammerless ice tool is not designed for smacking a piton in. Duh!

In reply to Pay Attention:


There often is no better alternative. Climbing on schist the other day, there wasn't much else, so I carried several.

In reply to 6b-east:

There is a time and a place for pegs and as a general guide an experience mountaineer will use them as a last resort. I generalise again but placing a peg sometimes is accompanied by a great sense of relief. I always carry a selection and have used them in the the battle for the safety of myself and of others. They are an essential piece of my every day kit when out on the hills , expecially in winter .

In reply to 6b-east:
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/climbing-guide-style.asp

In reply to 6b-east:

Over Christmas I did a few routes in the Caringorms
first day I was using my Piranha's and the second day I borrowed some modern tools and went leash-less for the first time.
placing a Lost arrow and a warthog with a modern tool is a real pain.
the weight of the hammer and the shape of the shaft makes it really difficult to place

I understand that with modern tools you can climb faster and harder, but if you want to use peg you may have to consider carrying a third tool (peg hammer)

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

In the Rockfax Winter Climbing handbook (Parnell/Gresham?), micro wires are recommended as an alternative to pegs, to be tapped in as per normal wires. A major advantage is that a selection of these would seem to offer far more placements for minimal weight, albeit at the risk of mangling your nice brass alloy offsets. Does anyone have any thoughts on this suggestion?

In reply to BnB:

A microwire in an icy earth-filled crack. In order to be any good, it would have to be hammered in and left in place, which would be much worse than a peg. To be anything like as secure as a peg, you would never get it out. I can't believe they would write anything so silly.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

I don't think anyone is going to question your wisdom, Andy, but in any case I just checked the book. They actually recommend them as an alternative to knifeblades in shallow cracks (fair enough) but also when you need to move fast.

There's not a large weight penalty for adding a few microwires but I think I'll still take my pegs

In reply to BnB:

Depends on conditions and could be useful on dry rock, but only in addition to pegs. But each to their own ideas.

In reply to RichardP:

Removing a peg with a lightweight Nomic hammer is basically impossible I discovered last winter. I stand a better chance using my teeth.

In reply to BnB:

I don't bother with micros in winter - they can be difficult enough to get reliable placements with in summer, let alone fumbling about with winter kit. If less than a no.1 nut I'd use pegs, terriers etc or go without if there's other options.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:


out of curiosity do you carry a peg hammer to place/remove pegs when you carry them?

In reply to RichardP:

it's called an ice axe

In reply to RichardP:

Whether I'm carrying pegs or not (and I usually am), I use an axe and a hammer. If leashless tools (and it varies), then I have an adze and a hammerhead on them. Since I'm mostly climbing on unexplored crags where the cracks are probably filled with earth, then I'm more likely to use pegs than on a well travelled crag.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I was under the impression with a hammer head it was called an Ice hammer....

the debate was about pitons in winter,
I was talking about using modern tools that have such an unusual shaped shaft and lack of weight making it difficult to place peg or warthogs as opposed a classic type axe/hammer

on the 27th December I was using a pair of Simond Piranha's and it was easy to place a lost arrow

on the 28th December I was using a pair of DMM Rebel and it was difficult to place a warthog, due to the shape of the shaft and lack of weight

This is why I was asking about carrying a peg hammer

In reply to RichardP:

I've only placed a couple of pegs in winter using nomics with a small hammer. I placed one last weekend to backup an old rusty peg at a belay and another when runout and on steep ground when there was no other option. In the first case I had a really good stance with lots of space and placing the peg was very straightforward. In the latter case I found it very awkward, tiring and it took for ever haha! Mind you, I was very glad I placed it.... I haven't found it too stressful placing warthogs with a nomic but that's probably down to choosing to place them when I have a comfortable spacious stance!