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GCSE choices

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Bingers 15 Jan 2015
How many GCSEs is it normal for a bright youngster to come out with?

GCSE options are fast approaching for our eldest and Mrs Bingers is rather stressed that Big Boy Bingers can only take 10 GCSEs if he does triple science (he's not really a scientist). She thinks he would be on the scrap heap if he only takes 9. What also doesn't help is that one of his preferences is GCSE PE and she doesn't think that will be looked on favourably by anyone in this world apart from his PE teacher. (Currently) he wants to be a sport journalist.
 lowersharpnose 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

Quality not quantity.

Isn't better to get 8 A*s rather than a mixed bag of 11?

Son going for
maths, 2xEnglish, 3xScience, French, history, art, something-non-academic-not-sure-what
 climbwhenready 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

Second the quality not quantity statement. If he's capable of it, there are some advantages in getting nine "academic" GCSEs (plus PE), but not if it's going to negatively affect his grades.

I don't know what the wider context is - is he intending to do A levels? If so, they're more important and employers will care far more about the A* in English than number of GCSEs. If he's heading down the BTEC route, GCSEs will count for a lot more. Finally, will a slightly more in-depth knowledge of the human body be an asset in his career ambitions?
 GarethSL 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

A-levels are far more important. The only scrap heap will be if he does a mediocre Uni degree. Also its ideal to choose some courses that are fun. My mother hates that I've had such an 'easy ride', but forgets that this is mostly because I always chose the studies I liked, not what people told me I 'should' do. Does the school run a DofE programme too? As this was a really helpful way of keeping my concentration going through the boring courses.

My GCSE's never really counted when I was looking for jobs as a teenager, as I you always put the 'expected' grade which can naturally be bullshitted for. They were only given a cursory look when choosing my A-levels, to make sure I was actually capable of doing the courses, they don't count in a UCAS application and are now redundant for the CV.

What I took really didn't dictate the courses I chose at A-level and only when it came to UCAS did I seriously start to figure out a suitable direction to go in.

I was a little nerd and took 11 subjects I think... Chem, Bio, Lit, Lang, Maths, Art, Geog, RM, French, RE, IT.

RE was a 'half' course and IT was some other kind of qualification, I have no idea what tho.

IIRC Everyone did the science double award, English language, IT and maths was compulsory, RE was also forced upon us at the last minute cause of some f*ckhead new teacher, everyone detested.

Everyone doing it took their English Lit a year early to free up timetable space and less exams.
 Dave Garnett 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

9 good GCSEs are enough for whatever you want to do. Only doing double science might be slightly limiting, but only if you end up wanting to do something science-based and very competitive.
 Doug 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Worth thinking ahead to possible university options, which although based on A levels, can also require GCSE in subject not studied at A level (e.g. English & a foreign language for those with science /maths A levels). Wayback when I went to university, several universities required a foreign language even for sciences - no idea if thats still the case but worth checking
 kestrelspl 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

It's about A level rather than GCSE, but interesting none the less if Russell Group universities are an aim for your son: http://www.trin.cam.ac.uk/acceptable-level-subject-combinations , although if he wants to be a sports journalist then I guess PE might be useful.

For my part I did 10 full GCSEs and 2 halfs.
 edunn 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

If he's likely to go to Oxford or Cambridge, then yes, he probably needs to start thinking now about how to get 11 A* GCSEs, plus 4 A's at A-Level and some strong extra curricular activities.

If not, then the grades are infinitely more important than quantity. I think that's actually why schools give the option of doing eight nowadays.

Having said that, if you think he is able to get 11 good GCSEs and it is the school holding him back, then you should pay for them privately. But to be honest, either you or the school probably would have picked up on that a few years ago and started setting the wheels in motion?

I would also add that it is the quality of the teaching that counts too. Your average state school is happy with anyone who gets A-Cs. A good private or grammar school will push the kid to get the best they can.

Best of luck with it all
 climbwhenready 15 Jan 2015
In reply to edunn:

> If he's likely to go to Oxford or Cambridge, then yes, he probably needs to start thinking now about how to get 11 A* GCSEs, plus 4 A's at A-Level and some strong extra curricular activities.

The first part of this is not true. You shouldn't skimp on GCSEs, but 9 is perfectly fine - and in general Oxbridge will look favourably on you doing well in the number of GCSEs that your school offers rather than expecting you to pack in extra GCSEs. 4 As at A level and some extra curricular interests, yes - although the extracurricular stuff really plays second fiddle to academic excellence.

http://www.study.cam.ac.uk/undergraduate/apply/requirements/thefacts.html
 Jamie Wakeham 15 Jan 2015
In reply to edunn:

> Your average state school is happy with anyone who gets A-Cs. A good private or grammar school will push the kid to get the best they can.

Utter drivel. The state schools I've worked in have been very (too?) data-driven, with every pupil measured in every subject against their own prediction. The stat we lived or died by was the percentage of pupils in your class meeting or exceeding their own target. If a given child was predicted A but got B - that's a failure. At any given moment we were expected to know which pupils were on or above their targets and which weren't, and they were the ones given the extra pressure. The %A-C was very much secondary.

On the other hand, none of the private schools I've worked in have been anywhere near as on the ball. In one, I asked for data and predictions for my first class, and was told slightly sheepishly that 'we don't really do data here'...

OP - don't worry about number of GCSEs, even if Oxbridge is an aspiration. The single biggest thing at this point is that your son is happy doing his GCSEs. If he's overworked and hates his subjects then he's less likely to go on to A levels, and less likely to pick them well.
 itsThere 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

If you take trip sci and if one of them is below a C he won't get into uni. Double sci gives more wiggle room if your bad at one. You should ask his teachers what could be the best option.

A lot has changed though since I was in this situation, although my school didn't offer trip sci.
 wintertree 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

I suspect most university admissions tutors don't make decisions based on GCSEs, but on A-levels etc. I say most...

> What also doesn't help is that one of his preferences is GCSE PE and she doesn't think that will be looked on favourably by anyone in this world apart from his PE teacher.

It's multiple decades since my GCSEs and my GCSE results have factored into only one or two specific decision points affecting my life. The first was my discretionary admission into a state 6th form from whilst living outside their catchment area. The 2nd, and this is only anecdotal, is that I was pushed by the school into doing an additional GCSE, and I didn't enjoy it enough to make sufficient time for it, didn't do very well and got a D. My 6th form's "Oxbridge advisor" reckoned that the D would stand out in a bad way when considered by admissions tutors there. I could imagine that is more paramount now that every pupil and their dog applying have 24A*s at GCSE and 5 gold stars at A-level. On the other hand that is 100% opposed to what I have seen of admissions elsewhere.

Thankfully getting a bad grade in one GCSE didn't bother me, and looking back I am glad I did it. I've known other people be pushed into things like this though, who are unwilling to accept failure and over-work themselves, and are then unable to gracefully accept their poor results. Far better to enjoy your studies than to start down a path of aimless, unhappy overwork.
Post edited at 12:02
 Welsh Kate 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

As someone who's recently been an Admissions Tutor for a humanities subject for a Russell Group university, and more recently head of admissions for a large multi-subject humanities school at the same institution, my advice would be not to over-load on GCSEs, and provided there aren't a load of really cr@p grades in his profile, the admissions tutor won't give a toss how many GCSEs mini Bingers has. His AS results and A2 predictions will be vastly more important!
 Dave Garnett 15 Jan 2015
In reply to climbwhenready:

> The first part of this is not true. You shouldn't skimp on GCSEs, but 9 is perfectly fine - and in general Oxbridge will look favourably on you doing well in the number of GCSEs that your school offers rather than expecting you to pack in extra GCSEs. 4 As at A level and some extra curricular interests, yes - although the extracurricular stuff really plays second fiddle to academic excellence.

I think 3 A levels is actually fine for Cambridge anyway. This year many offers were A*AA, rumour has it it will be more like A*A*A next time. However, extracurricular content, personal statement and work experience are crucial for competitive subjects.
 edunn 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Good to know, and apologies for generalising.
 Oujmik 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

As others have said the important thing in terms of future academic and job chances are the grades, particularly in the core subjects (maths, english, science) these really all need to be C or above to keep most options open. If you're missing one of these you'll make life a lot harder for yourself.

However, once he has a job or A-Levels the GCSEs become less relevant so it's not worth going crazy over. If he wants to get in to a picky college/sixth-form for A-Levels it's worth checking what they look for, but really GCSEs are only important for a very short time until you get a higher qualification or a skilled job.

I did double science and I have a 1st class MSci in Physics from a Russell Group uni (check me out), so even if he wants to pursue a career in science he shouldn't be limited by the lack of the third GCSE.

I'd also advise him to study a foreign language. I hated languages at school and tried to avoid them throughout my academic career, now here I am working for a Spanish company and learning Spanish at the age of 30 wishing I had done so earlier.
Robyn Vacher 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

I've never put my GCSE grades on my CV and just list the subjects (but that's because I feel that as a graduate it's not necessary). A wide range of subjects is indicative of a broad education and a Good Thing
 Doug 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Robyn Vacher:
Do graduates even put A levels on their CVs ? maybe for the first post or two after graduation (I think I listed mine when applying postgrad places), but never afterwards.

And to Oujmik
likewise, I dropped foreign languages as soon as I could, I now live in France & probably speak French more than English in an average day as French is our language at home. Even if the language you study isn't the one you later need, learning one makes the second easier
Post edited at 14:49
 Carolyn 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

I've survived life with only 9 GCSEs, and it didn't stop me progressing to a Cambridge degree and PhD. They did include triple science, but I was headed for a science degree anyhow.

I survived the boredom by putting the vast majority of my effort into Art; it was a much better choice than Latin, and well worth the argument with the Head of Latin over how I was wasting my talent. I imagine PE isn't viewed all that differently to Art, and presumably has some relevance if he wants to become a sports journalist.

I've no idea what the career path into sports journalism might be, but clearly it's worth a look at the requirements of any degree course or other training he'd be heading for.
Bingers 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

Thanks to all your considered replies. Many backing up my point of view and helping me put some extra polish on my side of things. Languages are not a problem, he is already fluent in French (maternal influence) and wants to take up German for years 10 & 11 - self motivated.

 earlsdonwhu 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Welsh Kate:

.. the admissions tutor won't give a toss how many GCSEs mini Bingers has. His AS results and A2 predictions will be vastly more important!

But with the shift towards linear A levels (thanks Gove!), it may be that there are no AS level grades at all so the only existing quantifiable evidence of ability will be GCSEs
 marsbar 15 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

Gcse PE includes a fair amount of biology and statistics if it is still the same. Its not just football.
 ranger*goy 15 Jan 2015
In reply to marsbar:

I did GCSE PE (a long time ago) and it was half sport half theory roughly. I remember doing lots of revision for the exam and there was a crossover with biology.
 Jamie Wakeham 15 Jan 2015
In reply to edunn:
Not at all. It's possible my opening sentence might have been a tad harsh...
Post edited at 21:08
 Banned User 77 16 Jan 2015
In reply to climbwhenready:

yeah agree.. 9 good ones is plenty, good A-levels are many many times more important.. then a good degree.. they are all just stepping stones.
In reply to Bingers:

Lots of posts based solely on getting into University, worth bearing in mind also that your GCSEs are the last formal grounding you get in all the things you don't specialise in. I wish I had taken PE, as it's highly relevant to what I've ended up doing. It's also really important to relax a little on the university front, I really shot myself in the foot by choosing GCSEs for architecture at Edinburgh, only to discover that I wanted to do maths&physics at Uni, which I promptly dropped out of to be a climbing instructor and now I'm opening my own wall, arguing with architects. Ultimately it's about who you want to be as a person, and that's what will get you places in life, in my opinion anyway.

The only scrap heap that exists is the one that formulates in your own mind, you're usually put there by doing the wrong thing against the advice of your elders...
 mav 16 Jan 2015
In reply to Carolyn:

> I've no idea what the career path into sports journalism might be, but clearly it's worth a look at the requirements of any degree course or other training he'd be heading for.

as someone who is married to a careers adviser, and so picks it up through osmosis, this is probably the best advice. Journalism of any sort is notoriously difficult to get into, and most journalists were at age 15 are turning up regularly for free at the local paper, editing the school magazine etc. etc. A old friend of mine had a kid sister who did all this, then went onto Napier in Edinburgh to do journalism, and now reads the news on BBC Scotland. Odd seeing her on tv - the last time I met her she was a 15 year old girl hanging round at her brother's 21st party.
 Rob Naylor 16 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

A few comments on here about "the scrapheap" and the importance of great A levels, good degrees, etc.

The idea of a "scrapheap" is plain daft IMO. There are many paths through life, and things can turn out very different from how they're "planned". I wanted to do research in Astrophysics but ended up working in the offshore exploration industry after many unsuccesful job applications, purely down to being picked up hitch hiking by someone in the industry who gave me 3 business cards to write "cold" to. Kids are similar:

- My oldest is very bright. Got 11 A* GCSE's and 5 Grade A at "A" level (English, Maths, Chemistry, Latin, History) with distinctions in 2 extension papers. All taken a year early, and without apparent effort. He dropped out of uni in his first year. He wrote a bit for a music magazine, through contacts rather than qualifications. Then made art-house films with his then girlfriend before becoming a business intelligence analyst for a company providing blue-chip companies with summaries of how they were being seen in the media. After that he worked in a restaurant in Stockholm then returned to UK and got a job as a software tester with a gaming company. He now heads up the software testing group at the same company. At no time have his qualifications played any part in his work opportunities.

- Middle one did History at Uni, with a fairly average crop of A levels, blagged her way onto a Russian Art and Culture MA course at St Petersburg, completely on a whim and without speaking any Russian at that time. She's now a Journalist in Moscow. No experience in journalism before...just blagged her way in the same way as she blagged the MA course. Hardly any of the people she works with did any sort of journalism or media-related subjects at uni.

- Youngest not at all academic, but when they cancelled the Social Work course at uni that she'd planned to do, she worked in pubs and restaurants for a couple of years before starting at an auction house as a "dogsbody". She's now training to be an auctioneer.

Point is, none of these kid's careers were either planned nor have much to do with the type or level of qualifications they got (or failed to get). None of them have ever been without work, whereas some of their friends who set their hearts on particular careers have spent literally years waiting for the "right" job opportunity to come along, and seem to have this "I'm on the scrapheap" mentality.
 Carolyn 16 Jan 2015
In reply to mav:

> Journalism of any sort is notoriously difficult to get into, and most journalists were at age 15 are turning up regularly for free at the local paper, editing the school magazine etc. etc. A old friend of mine had a kid sister who did all this, then went onto Napier in Edinburgh to do journalism, and now reads the news on BBC Scotland. Odd seeing her on tv - the last time I met her she was a 15 year old girl hanging round at her brother's 21st party.

That was my impression - I only know a handful of journalists, and don't really know the details of their career paths - but as far as I'm aware, one went straight from school into a placement with the local paper (and later moved into PR), another moved to journalism later in life after a spell in the army, and I think a third probably has a degree but I don't have a clue what in.
 Rob Naylor 16 Jan 2015
In reply to Carolyn:

My daughter had no experience at all of journalism. History degree followed by MA in Russian art and culture, then just emailed a company on spec asking if they took short-term interns. She was asked to go in for 2 weeks, expecting to make coffee, but on day 3 she was writing pieces for their web site and at the end of 2 weeks was offered a full-time job. Several of her colleagues are similar. Only a couple did any kind of pre-uni placements or work experience in journalism or related fields.

It seems to be more about being in the right place at the right time and meeting people than qualifications or experience. Most of those I know seemed to "fall" into it whereas none of the several of my kids' uni friends who did media-related degrees, planned a career in media, did all the school mag stuff etc, have actually got jobs in the field!
 Lord_ash2000 16 Jan 2015
In reply to Bingers:

No point having loads of GCSE's if they know roughly which subject they want to do at college, aim towards that and 5 good grades will normally get you in, the rest is just padding. Soon as you do your A levels or degree no one is going to care what or how many GCSE's someone has.

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