UKC

I backed off a route on Saturday, partly because I didn't have any gear and there was no belay and was saying to myself "you'll be fine, snow at the bottom is fairly soft and it's on a slope. You probably won't fall off either." My callous attitude worried me, I just didn't care. I've been bold before, but this was different. I need to get more climbing in to sort my head out, but how do you judge between boldness and sensible fast climbing? I fell off twice 2 seasons ago, both times hitting ledges instead of bouncing on gear. How sensible is it to fall of in winter? Depends on gear i suppose... Any thoughts from the UKC opinion pot?

In reply to jonnie3430:
It's too far when you fall off. Up to that point - suck it up fat boy.

In reply to jonnie3430:

Regarding your route on Saturday, is it possible that you are biting off more than you can chew? If you don't have any gear, are you perhaps not preparing properly? I would class sensible climbing as making decisions that stack the odds in your favor and having have a plan B or even C if things don't work out.

Will Gadd has some things to say on falling off in winter if that helps:
http://willgadd.com/falling-on-ice-and-mixed-belaying/
http://gravsports.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/ice-climbing-is-not-rock-climbing....

In reply to Jon Wickham:

Aye, that's it, the grade was fine, the cracks were choked with ice, which I couldn't be bothered to dig out, so was about to just run it out till there was easier gear. When did I think that was a sensible way to climb?

Jon, I don't think backing off because you couldn't commit is nessesarily biting off more than you can chew. I think most climbers have climbed many times on nothing but psychological protection at some moves. Can we equate psychological protection with confidence? - even in regular trad climbing I have followed the dont-fall-off mantra but I know myself I have climbed some sketchy moves on marginal microwires that if I fell I would have decked out. In winter more so on the basis that often there isnt any gear placements anyway and sometimes it is safer and more efficient to just push on than tire yourself digging and clawing away at rock to find nothing. So on this basis I think you need to have a boldness in order to be successful.

In reply to jonnie3430:

When there is no belay at the base and there is steep ground below then climbing tricky stuff with no gear is a bit silly. But most of the time it's surely the same as rock climbing - you choose to run it out and accept the consequences. Usually you've made that choice because either there is enough gear to protect hard moves despite the runout, or you've got enough in hand that you judge that you won't fall off.

In reply to Removed User:


Do you take your own advice?

In reply to jonnie3430:

Everyone's different and every day is different. There's no hard and fast rules on that stuff as it's a subtle interplay of conditions and your own mind set / physical shape. I've got increasingly comfortable with failure over the years.

In reply to DaveHK:

Well I'm fat if that's what you mean?

In reply to jonnie3430:

I don't think you can be callous to yourself as such. You can be reckless, aye, but unless you actually want to hurt yourself I don't think it applies.
Everybody who lead climbs in Winter has had to do huge run outs and I've often had to climb as if I was solo'ing. I think most would agree there is a line where run outs only worry you when they involve a level of difficulty that makes you worry about consequences. Were you worried it was hard (or not)?

In reply to jonnie3430:

If you find a definite answer I'd like to know. I have scared myself countless times. I have only rarely scared my belayers (of many years)- that's the real wake-up call. On one occasion, one of them was about to give me a proper talking to- far too much in the red, think survival more than pushing it- as he finished seconding the pitch. He saw my face and said: "if that's how climbing that grade is going to be, I'll no be holding your ropes... 'nough said". That was too far by a long shot and I have never been in that red place again. Still have led plenty necky pitches since but not that way.

In reply to jonnie3430:

Haven't posted on here in ages Jonnie, but since it's you...

I've had the same thing a few times. I'll try and put it a different way, to see if it matches your experience.

Over the years I've had plenty of scary runouts - times where there's been no, or very poor gear and I've weighed up the consequences of a fall, then gone for it. I'm usually quite intense and focussed in this state.

Then, there's been other times when I've just felt calm, focussed, flowing. In this state I can run it out even when I don't need to, for speed, for fluidity. This state is more rare, but it's addictive.

Now, onto the third state which I think is the one you refer to. At times, usually when I've not been climbing so frequently but I am still reasonably fit and strong I will catch myself in a dodgy situation and suddenly it will "click" in my head that I've unwittingly climbed myself into a serious cul-de-sac. The worst thing about this state is that it's not finely tuned, calculated risk. It's blind drifting and lazy thought. It seems to happen more when the climbing is not hard enough to really focus the mind, but still quite sketchy. Your example of ice-choked cracks which you couldn't be bothered to clear fits it perfectly.

If this seems similar to your experience then I think you should really focus on good protection for the next few routes. Don't worry about being a little slow, clearing, searching, scraping and finally placing gear are half the battle in Scotland. There's no harm in running out past poor gear to find better gear, but when you do, make sure you're fully focussed and not just drifting.

And stop bloody falling off with sharp pointy things on your feet!

In reply to jonnie3430:

We can certainly get into this head-space where we're much too interested in pushing the grade, and nowhere near interested enough in staying alive.

Three weeks in hospital is one way of curing ourselves of this. Worked for me

In reply to Fultonius:

Weeelll.... it's probably better to clip the poor gear anyway. Just in case you don't find better gear. In winter you often don't.

In the unlikely event that you end up having to shorten the pitch because you placed so many runners that your rack runs out, look on the bright side. Your route may, as a result, take a little longer. But not as long as waiting for the helicopter takes

In reply to Sophie G.:


Sometimes is , sometimes isn't - depends how bad the gear is, how far to the next rest/runner is etc. etc. Certainly better to push on if it's only a few moves to a rest and obvious gear, then 10 minutes of verglas scraping t get a shitty #2 nut held in mainly by ice...

In reply to jonnie3430:

IMHO there's a big difference between utting yourself at risk and putting yourself AND your belayer at risk. If there's no belay, maybe you'd be better off getting the belayer to take you off belay until you've made it to a secure stance? Take a look at Arno Ilgner's The Warrior's Way or Espresso Lessons for a great break down of thinking vs doing and fall zones vs no-fall zones, but arguably there aren't many fall zones in winter climbing...

In reply to Fultonius:


Yes. Judgement.