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Scottish Winter... the outer layer?

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 Stani49 27 Jan 2015
Apologies in advance if I'm duplicating something that's been asked many times! Just had 10 days away in Scotland and getting used to my gear in a variety of conditions.

I was wondering what people usually wear as an outer layer when munro walking and climbing?
On the walk in to climbs it was generally snowing or raining so I had to wear some sort of hard shell.
I have a North Face Apex lined windproof jacket or a Marmot Nabu Waterproof jacket with hood which is great.

The windproof was very water resistant... except it doesn't have a hood! So my hats/balaclava would be getting wet- but walking in a waterproof jacket was very sweaty.

I presume a windproof jacket would be the norm unless it's chucking it down? Maybe that would solve my problems? Any guidance gladly appreciated

Alex
In reply to Stani49:

Hardshell with only long sleeved base layer under?
 SuperstarDJ 27 Jan 2015
In reply to markh554:

For walking uphill, long sleeved base layer with soft shell on top and hat (so I can take off/put on quickly).

Add a hard shell once you're at the top/on the ridge/in the wind. I generate a lot of heat when I'm working hard but then not much once I'm on the flat so I need to layer up quickly once the sweat's dried off. If it's really cold then mid layer and shell trousers too. Maybe a spare dry hat to wear under the hood?
 chris_s 27 Jan 2015
In reply to Stani49:

I've had the same simple set up for years. I tried a different system last year but just went back to...

Berghaus Smoulder hoody + Marmot Ion windshell (also hooded) for walking in
+ a proper shell for climbing (a Marmot Nabu at the moment - great jacket)
+ synthetic jacket or gilet (depending on cold/wind) for warmth when belaying or stopped

Works great for me and copes with most conditions.
1
 Mr-Cowdrey 27 Jan 2015
In reply to Stani49:

For the walk in I'll wear something along the lines of a Long sleeved base layer + either the RAB Zephyr jacket (keeps a majority of the wind off and very breathable) if it's not raining/snowing or base layer and a hardshell if it is snowing/raining. Start bold, start cold etc etc.

A soft or hardshell with pit zips helps aid ventilation when on the walk in, just remember to do the zips up when you stop.

But for the climb itself, its either a softshell if the weather isn't too bad (RAB Exodus/Arcteryx Gamma SL) or a hardshell (RAB Atmos/Patagonia M10 or Marmot Spire if its proper scottish)

But I've also climbed in a hooded windproof (RAB Alpine Pull on) when it's been a lovely sunny day with a light breeze.

it's all personal preference, just find what works for you. Some do it all (walk in and climb) in paramo or buffalo With no need to chop and change between jackets.

 alasdair19 28 Jan 2015
In reply to Stani49:

paramo one jacket does it all. particularly of your sweaty. add extra layers underneath which means a miserable 5 mins.
In reply to Stani49:

I am super sweaty when I walk uphill soooo...

I wear some sort of synthetic baselayer (smelly helly usually) with a really packable windproof to walk in with the intention of taking both off at the foot of the climb and substituting a merino baselayer, midlayers (fleece and thin synthetic jacket), hardshell etc. This way it really doesn't matter if your baselayers get wet on the walk-in due to sweat, snow rain etc. and if you move fast enough i'm usually plenty warm (I have substituted windproof for hardshell before if it's been properly bucketing it down though.

On the bottom, powerstretch legging (+winter merino ones if it's cold) and gaiters for the walk in. I then put on waterproofs at the base of the climb or if it is particularly minging on the walkin.
In reply to Stani49:
> Just had 10 days away in Scotland...
> On the walk in to climbs it was generally snowing or raining so I had to wear some sort of hard shell.

Looks like I timed it right! In 17 days from late Jan to earlier this month I didn't wear a hardshell jacket once.

I found my basic Quechua hooded softshell (recently and very liberally covered in Nikwax Softshell Proof) was more than sufficient in a fairly wide variety of conditions.

Keeping whatever softshell or windproof layers you have well proofed may make a significant difference.
 climbwhenready 23 Feb 2015
In reply to Stani49:

On the outside, Paramo hardshell as windproof/waterproof. Being paramo it's more breathable than most and unusual to get sweaty in. Then below that either base layer or base+mid(fleece) depending on level of activity.

Then of course, temperature can be regulated in that age-old way - zips.

 Timmd 23 Feb 2015
In reply to Stani49:
What about a waterproof hat/hat cover?

I've just got a Goretex hat/hat cover which has a peak on it and it comes down low enough to cover my ears, and low down around the back of my head.

Few gear items are perfect, but it's more or less solved the problem of having a head that gets too hot on the up hills and too cold on the down hills while cycling if I wear a thinnish hat underneath, from keeping the wind off.

It might be similarly useful in Scottish winters..?
Post edited at 17:26
 Timmd 23 Feb 2015
In reply to Stani49:
You can buys ones like this from ebay for £26. I find the wind proofing helps for keeping the head warm(er) while not over heating with a more moderately warm hat underneath.

https://www.devonoutdoor.co.uk/Product/5060122781411/extremities-ice-cap/

It's layering for the head I suppose, and greener than a new jacket (:~))
Post edited at 17:41
 Timmd 23 Feb 2015
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

> Looks like I timed it right! In 17 days from late Jan to earlier this month I didn't wear a hardshell jacket once.

> I found my basic Quechua hooded softshell (recently and very liberally covered in Nikwax Softshell Proof) was more than sufficient in a fairly wide variety of conditions.

> Keeping whatever softshell or windproof layers you have well proofed may make a significant difference.

How long have you had it and how have you found the zips?

I ask because I've pretty much given up on any Decathlon own brand gear with zips in after not having any zips last for as long as 2 years, around a year and a half maximum.

The gear has been mostly worn while conservation volunteering, which is possibly harder on gear than some forms of outdoor recreation, but I'm not too impressed.
 Nick_Scots 23 Feb 2015
In reply to Timmd:
Zips need cleaned and bees waxed after washing. My decathlon kit has lasted well.
 Timmd 23 Feb 2015
In reply to Scott_vzr:
Washing? My waterproof gear has stayed caked in mud in my rucksack or in a corner somewhere, before being taken out again and either worn or staying stuffed in my rucksack.

I guess that helps to explain the short zip life, but other gear has lasted better for me. Would that kind of use explain zips randomly 'un peeling' and not functioning any longer?
Post edited at 18:22
In reply to Timmd: The front zip is a bit temperamental and if not aligned perfectly, it will unzip from the bottom, however that is the same with some other zips with smaller teeth. No other issues with the zips although the thumb loops are being re-stitched for the 3rd time and a mesh pocket lining is now ripped.

Super impressed for 45 euros back in 2010. It is also a very photogenic orange (have a look at my current profile picture).
 JR 23 Feb 2015
In reply to Stani49:

I pretty much only ever wear this with a v thin base layer walking in, and open the zips if it's hot, then add a layer or two once on the mountain if it's cold.

http://arcteryx.com/product.aspx?language=EN&gender=mens&model=Fiss...

Sometimes get's a bit sweaty, but usually ok with the pit zips open as far as the weather lets you.
 Timmd 23 Feb 2015
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

I've discovered it's down to the zips being coil zips that they failed where other zips haven't done. No wonder they did really, what with being abused doing conservation work and getting muddy and bent about and not cleaned particularly, but it seems zips with individual teeth are a fair amount more robust.

 Mike Lates 24 Feb 2015
In reply to Stani49:

Another vote for paramo- base layer & hooded fleece on dry walkins or base layer & paramo for wet or windy. add in thickish hooded fleece for climbing. add balaclava under helmet in most extreme weather. belay jacket for emergencies or, belaying....
In reply to Stani49:

For me, on the legs it's Powerdry baselayer leggings over Montane Sabertooth trousers. I've got hardshell sallopettes for early season gnarl but haven't felt the need this year.

On top for the walk-in is a long-sleeved synthetic baselayer and Rab Sirrus hooded windproof. At the base of the climb they both come off and get stuffed in the bottom of the sack and are replaced with a Mountain Equipment Eclipse Hoodie and a Rab Vapor Rise Guide over that. If it's minging a Rab Latok Alpine as a shell layer. Lightweight emergency waterproof trousers in the bottom of the sack and Rab Generator Alpine for belays.

If I was just walking and not climbing I'd not be switching clothes around and would probably start off with just the ME Eclipse and Rab Latok Alpine if the weather wasn't nice.
 BnB 24 Feb 2015
In reply to highaltitudebarista:

The Montane Sabretooth pants are the mutt's nuts aren't they? No surprise that they've been discontinued like all future classics!! But for me a more comfortable arrangement is to wear them without thermals as they have a lightweight flocked inner face. Very comfortable on the walk in and you can don shell pants if it rains without overheating under 3 leg layers!! Then I layer Rab Neoshell pants over for better insulation on the belay. Or simply go with the Sabretooth pants on their own on mountaineering continual movement days.

As for the top layer, where does one start? Different conditions require different approaches. Broadly I've settled on Brjnye mesh + ME Eclipse + windshirt (if required) on the walk in, swapping the windshirt for a Rab Strata/Patagonia Nano Air if dry or Hardshell (+ optional insulated vest) if very Scottish.
In reply to BnB:

If I'm packing the hardshell sallopettes then I would miss out the powerdry baselayer for sure. Powershield is an awesome fabric for Winter legwear.
 BnB 24 Feb 2015
In reply to highaltitudebarista:

Agreed. Powershield seems to give the perfect balance of warmth, breathability and protection for all but truly wet conditions. Popular for jackets yet a surprisingly rare option in mountaineering trousers.
 Nathan Adam 24 Feb 2015
In reply to Stani49:
Walk in; Synthetic base layer, Rab Boreas pull on, Softshell gilet to keep the core warm. Switch and swap as necessary but generally can start with the three on and get away with them without getting super warm. Pair of synthetic leggings and Patagonia Powershield Pro fabric trousers (totally bombproof and really weather resistant). Can use hat and thin gloves to help regulate temperature.

Gearing up and climbing; ME Orbital if the weather is fair for climbing in but if its snowy then I'll wear a totally knackered Rab Pertex "waterproof" top as an extra windshirt over the top of all stated layers, still good enough to keep snow and a little water off. Don't mind getting a bit damp from sweat or weather on the walk out. Keep gore tex salopettes in the bag, left them at home more often this season as freezing level has been low down the hills a lot. I'm very much of the softshell mind set, until the weather totally craps out.

If its proper ming, or forecast to be, then i'll start the day with full heavy weight Gore salopettes and jacket or keep them in bag until I'm about to gear up.

If all hell has broke loose or I'm belaying for a while then I have a Montane Flux to throw over it all, and always keep a pair of mittens in the pockets of it.

Kinda based on the Mark Twight action suit mentality but tweaked to suit my own needs, plenty good info to be found in Extreme Alpinism.
Post edited at 15:23

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