UKC

What are your thoughts on taking a novice on Idwal slabs ordinary route for his first outdoor climb??
He is a competent belayer indoors.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

Not the most ideal place for someone who hasn't climbed outdoors before, especially if it's damp given the slippy descent. Tryfan Bach would be a better idea.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

When?

In reply to John Ww:

On a nice warm good weather day

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

I took a total beginner aged 12 up this, its a good choice. Only difficulty to be anticipated is on the descent.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

The climb will be fine, but maybe not the descent...

In reply to Doug:

What is the descent like??

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

Then not a problem - it's pretty difficult to fall off, even for a beginner.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:
Multi pitch but should be fine. Pick a nice day, slabs not a pleasant place to be in the rain and you want them to have fun.

I wouldn't if young. Halfway up a sea of slabs can be quite lonely if nervous. Depends on the individual which can only be your call. Take sufficient gear for bail out option. (Abseil).

Decent most dangerous bit. It might be nice to scramble on up continuation ridge to make a mountain day out of it.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

Best to recce it first. Its OK but it can be tricky, especially if moist, and confidence may not be instilled if you are 'onsighting' it yourself.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

There was some tat in situ to ab off the awkward bit of the descent when I was there in September. It could add some interest to the day if your friend is reasonably competent.....or it may be too much for a nervous novice.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:
I took my son up ordinary route when he was 11. He loved it. We carried on up towards seniors ridge and descended into Cwm Cneifon. He wouldn't have much use holding a fall but it's a very straightforward climb, enjoyable nonetheless.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


Agree. The OP will get a good feel for where they're at. Hopefully they'll get some confidence. Do some routes here and the Ordinary Route another day. It'll still be there!

Mick

In reply to higherclimbingwales:
I would second Little Tryfan as an excellent intro to outdoor climbing with a straightforward descent. Do lots of routes there on one day then Ordinary Route the next to introduce the idea that getting back down is part of the game. Having learnt the descent route then harder climbs on the slabs would make great follow ups. It would also introduce the concept of queuing on popular routes!

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

Does anyone have any pictures of the descent route? Always wanted to get on the slabs but been very put off by these stories. What makes it so treacherous?

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

Agreed, you can't go wrong with Little Tryfan / Tryfan Bach

Easy enough to solo, easy enough to set up belays and practise swapping gear but also the overlooked getting gear out. If he can't do this then i imagine its going to be a costly trip! Its also in an ideal learning environment, no tricky decent. Almost road side. Plus do 2 hours or so here and if you're happy, move over to the slabs. Time of year dependant obviously, decent off the slabs in the dark for a complete novice would be interesting!

In reply to Le Chevalier Mal Fet:

Thanks for the replies guys, might try an easy one on tryfan Bach first and see how it goes

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

The descent involves scrambling at about grade 2 for quite a long way up (yes i realise up isn't actually a descent!). Then a short down-climb, easy to protect a more novice partner if needed, then either a short abseil or a diagonal downward traversing scramble that's easy but a fall could be nasty. If going for the abseil be very careful choosing your anchors, as some of the big and solid looking spikes are definitely not solid. If I can find a photo of the descent i'll put it in the galleries.

Little Tryfan best option for a day one, Milestone Buttress another good option for more involved but still quite straightforward multi-pitch.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:
If you want to move him on to leading then Little Tryfan is great for this. There are a several climbs with great protection. I introduced my daughter to leading by giving her my rack and setting the challenge of putting everything in except the two items I earmarked for the belay. She loved it and placed everything successfully.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:


I would agree with all that's been said above; I would strongly suggest not taking a beginner up the Idwal Slabs if you are not familiar with the descent. For a beginner the way off is much harder and scarier than Ordinary Route.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:



Despite the general advice on here, I would say as long as YOU are competent it would be a great introduction to the mountains,

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Agree with Chris that if you are competent and climbing well within your grade then go for it. Can always short rope the scrambling above the climb and the descent or it's easy to lower/abseil the beginner down the awkward bit of the descent using an ideally situated spike which often has tat on.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

I think it would be OK, but as others have said getting down is harder than getting up. If you fancy a longer day you can either do Seniors Ridge or do part of the descent (to the path), head up instead of down and link with the cneifion arete for a grand day out.

If you are both happy to walk a bit further then I reckon Left Edge on Carnedd y Filiast is a better route, and not really any harder. A bit less gear but that's not going to be the seconds problem is it?

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

It would be a good route for a first multi pitch but not for a first outdoor climb. The main problem being that it is very polished. There is often drainage on the top pitch too, which adds to the trickiness. The route is at an easy angle but it can still feel quite exposed once you're 40 or 50 metres up. It's also easy to inadvertently stray off right onto a V Diff in the middle section, I should know, I've done it! I can't comment on the descent route as I've never done it, I always continue up the Senior's Ridge.

Give your friend a bit of practice on single pitch crags first then take them up the Ordinary Route when they're ready to try a multi pitch.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

A lot of this sort of stuff depends on how robust and adventurous your mate is, really. I've known people whose response to being sent down the descent from Idwal Slabs without a rope would be to swear off ever going into the hills again (although as a few people have pointed out, it's easy enough to protect them, particularly if you're happy to scramble it yourself), but I've known other people whose response to Tryfan Bach would be along the lines of "is that it?" Come to that, I've known people whose response to Idwal Ordinary would be "is that it" as well, and who'd be better off being taken up a classic HS or something...

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

So to sum up, you ask a question about one route, and get a load of responses about a) other routes and b) descent routes. Welcome to ukc

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

All of the points seem valid,but if you plan and have a clear head,whilst having several continuation or curtailment options/plans you should have a good time.
I took my children up the ordinary route(I think that they were 6 and 12) and I belayed them in close tandem,so that there was a degree of competition(without being silly or irresponsible).This worked generally,but it did start to chuck it down part-way up.Yet my children were more phased by the impatient fools who proceeded to overtake them instead of either waiting or climbing another route.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

I would not take a novice up any climb that I was not familiar with, especially if it's their first time outdoors, especially if it's multi-pitch, and especially if it's a tricky descent..

I would need my own assessment on the difficulties, and not rely on other people's.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

Brilliant intro to multipitch, the descent does require some thought.

My first multipitch route was Tennis Shoe, when I was about 16, got me hooked !

In reply to Chris Craggs:



Spot on. I've taken beginners on the Idwal Slabs. The Ordinary Route is hardly a climb, more of a slippery scramble. Hope is much nicer and not beyond the ability of a fit beginner.

The descent looks a bit intimidating and exposed, but is not difficult. I would agree with the suggestion that it's about a Grade ll scramble. The OP can always rope the beginner to down climb it if he is worried. From his profile it looks as though he is climbing HS up to HVS, so will have no problem with solo down climbing it after he has belayed his beginner down.

As you say a great introduction to mountain trad.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

Has he done much/any hill walking/scrambling? If not then he might be among those who find the descent a bit traumatic. I've never really understood this, but that's probably because I'd done loads of scrambling before I started climbing. But if it comes to it you could either rope up for the scramble, or even lower him off.

Subject to this, I agree with Chris, it would be an excellent choice of route.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:



Nothing wrong with this at all. On a warm sunny day, he'll be in the company of another 150 novices - unless it's a 'really' busy day!

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

The answer is yes!

In reply to Trangia:

On the descent it's possible to lower someone, or let them abseil into the gully. Some of it is free hanging, so not ideal if you think they might be fazed by it. Fifty metre rope is more than long enough. If you want to let them climb down, you can protect most of the descent by flicking the rope behind a flake at the start of the descent which will prevent them swinging into space if they fall off. The most awkward part is the first few feet.

If you haven't done the descent yourself before, it's probably a good idea to scramble down in advance so you can see where the awkward bits are and at what point it's safe to take the novice off the rope. I have done a few routes on the slabs with my children. I think they were about 10 and 12 when we first climbed there.

You need to keep an eye on them on the scrambly bits from the top of Ordinary Route to the descent route. There are some short awkward steps, where you probably don't need to use a rope, but where a slip could be nasty.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:
Some pretty odd advice on this thread. I'd can't see any reason at all why it's not fine for a novice with the usual provisos: if you know the route (if not, chose one you do know) and you know you would be happy solo up and down on it (if anything goes wrong you are responsible for getting both of you out of trouble). Like Goucho intimated its often busy, so start early or choose another route (its very unpleasant as a novice to be below incompetant parties dropping things or making them wait in the cold etc). Its not as busy as Goucho said: 150 might be possible if eveyone was efficient and knew what they were doing: a busy day might see 20 due to slowish pace or less than 10 due to cock-ups.

I would certainly not advise lowering the climber from the start of the descent: the terrain is nasty and dislodged rock could cause an accident (I know groups who did this and nearly regretted it). Its probably quicker a lot warmer and way better to stay roped up and climb up to the cwm on the left and then do the Cneifion Arete or descend the path.

In reply to Offwidth:


Nor would I. It would be OK (as a last resort) to lower from what has become the normal abseil point though. But I'd still recommend scrambling down, roped if necessary, rather than either lowering or abseiling.


Definitely!

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

Ignore the naysayers, this is a great route for a beginner. Cool location, piss easy and not at all intimadting.

If the decent concerns you follow up with Lazarus and Groove Above, then its an easy walk down.

In reply to Trangia:

For the three years I worked at PyB, novices' first day climbing was often a route on the slabs. I think some of the replies above reflect a worrying acceptance of H+S in climbing. However, Chris C got it right when he said:

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

As a total novice (not even climbing indoors at that stage), I was taken to Idwal slabs, led up Hope and then Lazarus, and then we f*&^ed the descent and ended doing a dodgy scramble on steep and muddy rocks to get back to the descent gully. All in all, it was a fantastic day that was also somewhat reckless (I didn't know it was reckless until I was halfway up and told "it's better go do this one than try and descend"). As long as you don't do it like this - and stick to an easy line, you should be fine.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

Dear God, why ever not? It's not like he'll be among the first ten thousand total beginners to have done the route, after all. The only slightly worrying thing is that you have to ask.

Ignore bedwetters. A good rule in life, but on this thread in particular.

jcm

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

My thoughts are it`s busy and polished with a tricky desent and you would be far better taking them to the Moelwyns for an easy first Multi Pich day. However if your competent then there is no reason not to go to Idwal as many thousands have done before.

In reply to SCrossley:

For goodness sake how many times do we need to say there is no need to go anywhere near the tricky descent. You simply climb up and round it staying warmer and safer and losing almost no time in the process. On a busy day it's well worth going out on the ledge for a quick look just to amaze yourself with the muppetry on view from safety obsessives acheiving the exact opposite of their supposed intent.

The Molwyns are maybe a better option but mainly because they are warmer and less busy.

In reply to Offwidth:

I've said it once, I'll say it again...

... until they fit bright orange huts with a direct line to Ogwen on all the belays, a bright yellow Via Ferrata with neon direction arrows every 10 feet leading to the decent, and a fixed ladder with cables on the decent itself (with a stack of 12 mats at the bottom just in case) Bumbly Hill is always going to cause concern for those people who have nightmares after watching an episode Sesame Street!

In reply to Offwidth:


>


zzzzzzz, I just gave my thoughts.

In reply to Goucho:
I always thought the bit just above the Idwal slabs would be the perfect place for a long Via Ferrata. It could do the fairly blank vertical wall immediately right of the polished stuff, up to the continuation ledges then tend right going up The Grey Arête, which was always a bit thin on gear in places. With a bit of imagination you could zip wire down from there to the decent path from the Devils Kitchen.

Most people don't use those bits of rock anyway. Good for tourists and fairly safe. While doing the installations they could pop across to the top of the Idwal Slabs decent route and put in the long needed chain anchors. This would safe the local mountain rescue many call outs.

In reply to Aztec Bar:

The rock below the start of the problematic descent is loose in places. Its not a ideal place to establish a fixed anchor for that purpose even if anchors were an ethical norm and commonplace in the british mountains. The wall above Idwall Slabs has established routes and room for more. Grey Arete is a great classic HVS climb which retains popularity, with queues at times on a good day. The trolling in your post is both transparent and sad.

Last year I took a lad who had never climbed indoors or out up Ordinary Route on a very wet day - it was to be his last 3000, so I thought I'd make it a bit special. As Chris said earlier, it's more about you being competent. I soloed up trailing a rope, built the belay, brought him up and then moved on after showing him how to dismantle the belay once I'd built the next one. We had a great time! He slipped near the top at what I call the crux but otherwise just got on with it... having never climbed indoors or out, he had no expectations.
This year we'll do something similar but I'll make sure we have decent weather.

In reply to Dylan Driscoll:

Whilst at the bottom of the slabs (quite a few years ago), I got talking to a pair who had never climbed outdoors (beyond walking/scrambling) and had bought some basic gear and simply set off up it to see how it went. They seemed pretty clued up, had read a bit about basic climbing techniques, and didn't appear to come to any harm. Admirable attitude, very old fashioned, need more of it really.

So, yes, why not. Idwal is a right of passage for any novice surely? It was for me.

In reply to Aztec Bar:
Please let that be the end of this thread.

In reply to alan moore:
No