UKC

Fitness trackers, fitbit etc

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 flopsicle 29 Jan 2015
I childishly like to measure stuff and see it afterwards. I use 'My Tracks' when I run and find totting up the weeks mileage quite motivating, I like seeing the map too.

When I climb on the auto belay I tally up using little chalk dots for each ascent next to the initial of the colour climbed.

My rower calculates miles very badly but as it's the only rower I've had or used I still count them as real to me!

I have some measuring black holes and while buying a car light bulb in Halfords the guy fitting it thought fitness trackers might fill them. These are what I currently can't measure:

The amount of 'up' done at the climbing wall, counting repeated attempts at something not completed - just a sum total of 'up' for the session or day, I know what I was doing within that.

The hills when I run - where I live isn't flat, it's always hills and I've ended up vastly preferring to run on hills. My kid's Lollipop man's Dad is a runner and suggests new hills through his son when I drop my kid off, I tell the lollipop man when the suggested hills are done and ask for new ones. I would love to tally the totalled climb on the runs!

And for bonus points but suspect it ain't possible:
Mud, sweat and tears - when I get a longer session I head to run at my local woods. they're on a sheer slope and full of clay mud. I'd love a gadget that says 'Hang on a cotton picking minute; sumit's up, she doesn't normally get all heart popping at this speed' then adjusts calories burned or anything really to take into account the measured effects of the terrain it can't measure.

Anyone have a fitness tracker that can do any of the above? How techy are they to use?
 fraserbarrett 29 Jan 2015
In reply to flopsicle:

Can't help with the height climbed, but a GPS watch with a heart rate strap would cover the running bits. The height gained will be recorded and you can graph it, and the heart rate will tell you when you're working harder than normal.
I use a bike based one, and can see when I've not recovered properly or have a cold, by looking at my heart rate on my warm up; then i can see head winds etc when my heart rate is higher than normal at the same speed/cadence on the flat.
 BFG 29 Jan 2015
In reply to flopsicle:
https://www.fitbit.com/uk/chargehr

http://www.microsoft.com/Microsoft-Band/en-us

The last one is pretty easy - anything with decent continuous heart rate monitoring will adjust calories burnt based on that, plus they tend to output something - raw data, to a web platform etc - so you can adjust it there as well if necessary. It will only be adjusting on heart rate, but that's a pretty fair measure of how you're working.

Charge HR has an altimeter built in, that, plus GPS plus HRM will give you how much you've climbed on he runs and how hard you've worked.

The issue will be the first one. Having never tried I have no idea if an altimeter will measure straight up / straight down.

So basically - you need GPS + continuous HRM + Altimeter. Then it's just a matter of finding the right package to contain it / one that outputs the data in a form you're comfortable working with.

Another thing to mention is that, for obvious reasons, measuring heart rate from your wrist can be a bit hit and miss. The technology is improving all the time and the newest devices 99% there - latest tests show them to be pretty much the same as a much more intuitively reliable chest strap. That said, new = expensive. I've linked the microsoft band as it's probably got the most advanced sensor package of any device out there atm, don't know if it's the best though.

Edit: I take it back, for the proper GPS tracking, you're gonna want the Fitbit Surge, not charge HR. The bells and whistles will cost you, though. - https://www.fitbit.com/uk/surge
Post edited at 09:53
 Jerry67 29 Jan 2015
In reply to flopsicle:

Endomondo do an app for Android, so probably for iPhone too, that is free and calculates height ascended/descended and distance etc and gives you a map of your run/cycle etc.
 yorkshireman 29 Jan 2015
In reply to flopsicle:

> I use 'My Tracks' when I run ...I would love to tally the totalled climb on the runs!

Never used MyTracks, but I'm a strong advocate of Strava and it calculates height gain for all my runs. I was pleased to see that last year I racked up 45,000m of elevation gain while running. There's a ton of other stats for your inner geek too.
 BFG 29 Jan 2015
In reply to Phoebus:

Just found this rather good review of the last device I mentioned: http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/01/fitbit-surge-depth-review.html

Basically... No.
 Marek 29 Jan 2015
In reply to yorkshireman:

> Never used MyTracks, but I'm a strong advocate of Strava and it calculates height gain for all my runs. I was pleased to see that last year I racked up 45,000m of elevation gain while running. There's a ton of other stats for your inner geek too.

That 'gain' could be complete fiction. If it was predominantly long continuous climbs/descents then it may be OK. If it was predominantly rolling terrain, then between the GPS 'noise', geo data precision and any smoothing/interpolation functions, the error bars on the gain are likely to be quite big.
 yorkshireman 29 Jan 2015
In reply to Marek:

> That 'gain' could be complete fiction. If it was predominantly long continuous climbs/descents then it may be OK. If it was predominantly rolling terrain, then between the GPS 'noise', geo data precision and any smoothing/interpolation functions, the error bars on the gain are likely to be quite big.

I'm fairly confident in those numbers - I live in the Alps and run almost every day - even my shortest 8km 'bread and butter' run to the end of the valley and back is at least 150m of height gain - plus I did a few trail races with >1000m of elevation.

On the whole I find the height estimates to be fairly accurate - I think most apps now check your GPS track against a basemap and calculate height gain that way - pure GPS positioning is notoriously poor for height measurements (although my GPS watch has a barometric altimeter as well, so that may help accuracy).
OP flopsicle 29 Jan 2015
Oh 'eck! It's complicated! I still can't figure out whether the altimeters just sense height or use maps via GPS. If they sense height then surely it would give a very basic appraisal of how much 'up' I packed into a bouldering session?

I don't object to carrying my phone and until a couple of times recently the GPS seems to have been excellent, I can even see where I cross to the other side of the road! It'd be interesting to see how the info My Tracks gives compares so I'll see if I can share Sunday's run on here. It says I can share via wifi but never put anything over the wi fi before. Looks like it'll email me too but I forget my MS email addy! I think I'm very useless at tech .

I wonder if there's a phone that has an altimeter?




 kathrync 29 Jan 2015
In reply to flopsicle:

> Oh 'eck! It's complicated! I still can't figure out whether the altimeters just sense height or use maps via GPS. If they sense height then surely it would give a very basic appraisal of how much 'up' I packed into a bouldering session?

I have to admit I haven't tried an altimeter for this, but I am not sure a barometric altimeter would have the resolution to give you good feedback on a bouldering session. You would need to look it up, but I would expect most commercially available altimeters to have an error of +/- 5m or so (in fact, with a lot of altimeters you can only set them to the nearest 5m), so if your bouldering problems are only 2-3m high, you would basically just be seeing noise. Even with an average length indoor route, or single pitch I wouldn't be too confident in the output.

Most of the units above would be fine for giving you an idea of what you have done (including up) while running/cycling/walking - I don't know of anything available that would specifically work for climbing though.

 BFG 29 Jan 2015
In reply to kathrync:

This.

You get smart watches with altimeters, but I doubt they'd give you an accurate reading for anything short of multipitch climbing. The kit that can do this sort of stuff is only just appearing, it's going to be a couple of years before it's reliable and the software for sports other than swimming / cycling / running is written.
 john arran 29 Jan 2015
In reply to Phoebus:

Altimeter support for swimming: now there's an idea worth patenting
OP flopsicle 29 Jan 2015
Yep, despite the Halford's guy's enthusiasm I suspected the level of accuracy wouldn't be there. So that just leaves the running then.

I managed to get the breakdown of the stats from the app I currently use and I'll paste my cold filled clay run from Sunday. DAMN I'm a slow runner! :
Activity type: running
Description: -
Total distance: 5.38 km (3.3 mi)
Total time: 44:09
Moving time: 43:51
Average speed: 7.31 km/h (4.5 mi/h)
Average moving speed: 7.36 km/h (4.6 mi/h)
Max speed: 18.90 km/h (11.7 mi/h)
Average pace: 8:12 min/km (13:12 min/mi)
Average moving pace: 8:09 min/km (13:07 min/mi)
Fastest pace: 3:10 min/km (5:07 min/mi)
Max elevation: 160 m (525 ft)
Min elevation: 88 m (288 ft)
Elevation gain: 144 m (472 ft)
Max grade: 28 %
Min grade: -15 %

The route is constant up and down, once in the woods it gets very steep. I don't get that the max elevation is higher than the elevation gain as I ended where I began. I have no clue what the min and max grades mean?

How do the stats compare to Strava? (On the phone it has a map and incomprehensible chart)
 BFG 29 Jan 2015
In reply to john arran:

> Altimeter support for swimming: now there's an idea worth patenting

I reckon there's a market, assuming you can work out a method to attach it to salmon.
 kathrync 30 Jan 2015
In reply to flopsicle:

> The route is constant up and down, once in the woods it gets very steep. I don't get that the max elevation is higher than the elevation gain as I ended where I began.

I assume the max elevation is the highest point of your run, i.e., 160m above sea level. The elevation gain would be how far up hill you actually ran. If you start at 20m above sea level and just go straight up, your max elevation would be 160m, but your elevation gain would be 140m. If you did circuits and went up the hill twice, your max elevation would still be 160m, but your elevation gain would now be 280m. On an undulating route, the elevation gain would be cumulative for every short section of up you did.


 yorkshireman 30 Jan 2015
In reply to flopsicle:

> I have no clue what the min and max grades mean?

Steepness, just like a on a road sign. 28% is pretty damn steep.

Negative numbers are downhill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_%28slope%29
 Stig 30 Jan 2015
In reply to flopsicle:


> The amount of 'up' done at the climbing wall, counting repeated attempts at something not completed - just a sum total of 'up' for the session or day, I know what I was doing within that.

You have to ask why you are counting. Surely what you are interested in is moves - volume of. After all traversing / circuits are just as legitimate training load. So I imagine minutes of continuous climbing is the best proxy, unless you want to be really tedious and estimate move/minute.

> The hills when I run - where I live isn't flat, it's always hills and I've ended up vastly preferring to run on hills. My kid's Lollipop man's Dad is a runner and suggests new hills through his son when I drop my kid off, I tell the lollipop man when the suggested hills are done and ask for new ones. I would love to tally the totalled climb on the runs!

Strava.

> And for bonus points but suspect it ain't possible:

> Mud, sweat and tears - when I get a longer session I head to run at my local woods. they're on a sheer slope and full of clay mud. I'd love a gadget that says 'Hang on a cotton picking minute; sumit's up, she doesn't normally get all heart popping at this speed' then adjusts calories burned or anything really to take into account the measured effects of the terrain it can't measure.

Strava - but premium this time. It can calculate a suffer score based I think on length of time in heart rate zones. As you can probably tell I don't bother with Premium but am tempted - it's £45 a year or something.

> Anyone have a fitness tracker that can do any of the above? How techy are they to use?

Fitness trackers look lame to me and seem to be targeted at people who don't actually exercise. For the above you just need a GPS HR watch - something like the cheap Soleus or Garmin 15.
 Stig 30 Jan 2015
In reply to flopsicle:

Just to add to my post - downloading strava (i.e. to your phone initially) will be the biggest improvement you can make to your running.

You'll probably find that most of the hills you like have segments on and you will find yourself competing with people, following local runners, even hooking up in real life (oo-er)

Even free strava calculates 'calories burned'. Some people log their swim sessions in strava. I imagine there is still a lot of potenital to develop it into logging other activities..
 The New NickB 30 Jan 2015
In reply to Marek:

I find using Strava much more accurate than just raw GPS data, I assume map data is the reason.
OP flopsicle 30 Jan 2015
In reply to yorkshireman:

It is steep, and muddy! I've downloaded strava so I'll see how it goes on my Sunday run.

The premium version sounds very attractive but I'll see how I get on with it first.
 yorkshireman 30 Jan 2015
In reply to flopsicle:

> The premium version sounds very attractive but I'll see how I get on with it first.

I've been on Premium for a couple of years now and it is an improvement, but not massively so. I think the cyclists get more benefit out of it. Anyway, I'm happy to spend my money on it and love the stats so everybody is happy.
OP flopsicle 01 Feb 2015
In reply to yorkshireman:

Well, I've had some right fun with Strava! Being a bit tech thick I struggled to get it to start to record, couldn't work out how to get it to the right page. Who knew I had to press 'Feed' in order to record?!

Anyhoo, my 6 yr old decided on Friday that she was going to start running so we set out for a .7 miler including our home run hill. After faffing about with Strava I switched to MT to record only I had accidentally turned Strava on by then so ended up recording her first run on hills plus our car journey to Asda! She loved running so much we had a second chance on Saturday and this time I beat it into submission.

I recorded my run this am on both Strava and My Tracks, both recorded same distance but Strava gave me more than 10 more calories burned - woo hoo! Weirdly My Tracks gave me 15% more height gain. After this thread I got more interested in the hill grade and found I could get it on the stats display - I'd only ever seen it posting here as it didn't appear till uploaded to drop box. Once I'd added it on my settings I went looking for the steepest run I do and it had 37% as the maximum grade.

I can't find how to get the hill grade on Strava - is it there somewhere?

Oh and apparently I came second in the females on a forgotten abbey - gave me a cup and everything. Well chuffed! I think I can get first too as I was a lazy wallop this am!
 mbh 01 Feb 2015
In reply to flopsicle:

I have found Strava to be a lot of fun and much more effective than, say Fit Club is for motivating me to get out and run. How it compares to Fit Club for me motivating others I don't know, mind. I am a Premium member, but most people aren't, and I have forgotten what the extra are that I am getting.

Before I had a GPS watch and Strava I did all my stats with a map (then with OS GetaMap) and an an increasingly elaborate spreadsheet. Now, with both of them, I have abandoned the spreadsheet and and besides all the extra split/segment times I now get, I find that I am much more wide ranging in where I run. I don't stick to the same few routes any more because the watch/Strava will work it all out, whatever I do. It is very liberating.

But its biggest impact over just doing the spreadsheet is as a social medium and I am sure the canny designers behind it know it. This may be more true for solitary runners like me, rather than club runners, but I had no idea before I started to use it how I compared with anyone else, and very rarely got encouragement. Then I discovered, gradually, that there was a world of runners around me, some slow, some fast, some local, some not and that many of them wanted to take an interest in me and say "Well done!" I have never run as far or up so many hills, so consistently and for so long as I have in the last two years and I am sure that Strava has a lot to do with it. I have even met and run with some actual human beans through it!

 yorkshireman 02 Feb 2015
In reply to flopsicle:

> I recorded my run this am on both Strava and My Tracks, both recorded same distance but Strava gave me more than 10 more calories burned - woo hoo! Weirdly My Tracks gave me 15% more height gain. After this thread I got more interested in the hill grade and found I could get it on the stats display - I'd only ever seen it posting here as it didn't appear till uploaded to drop box. Once I'd added it on my settings I went looking for the steepest run I do and it had 37% as the maximum grade.

> I can't find how to get the hill grade on Strava - is it there somewhere?

Glad you're getting the hang of it. Not quite sure where you're having the problem, or whether you can't see it on the app or the site. The site is usually clearer to navigate and see your stats. Here's a local segment of mine.

https://app.strava.com/segments/2149671

If you look under the map, there's a profile chart. Move your mouse over it and it gives you the grade for that particular point, and in the summary stats above the map is the average grade. The avg grade only seems to appear for segments, but on your run summary you will find along with your pace, a GAP (Grade Adjusted Pace) which takes into account the hill and tries to calculate the equivalent pace on the flat, so you can tell how well you're doing in the hills.

> Oh and apparently I came second in the females on a forgotten abbey - gave me a cup and everything. Well chuffed! I think I can get first too as I was a lazy wallop this am!

It can be a good motivator. I was first on a segment over the Chain Bridge in Budapest once as I was there on a business trip. I held it for months and then was informed I lost it. Next trip there I was hung over and knackered and didn't want to run but forced myself to go out and get it back (and I did, just).

In reply to: mbh
> I have found Strava to be a lot of fun and much more effective than, say Fit Club is for motivating me to get out and run.

I think as with anything, the key is logging and viewing the data. Sometimes its easy to kid yourself you're doing enough, but looking at the cold hard stats can tell you otherwise. Likewise, you can feel OK but be overtraining so its good to visualise this.


OP flopsicle 02 Feb 2015
In reply to yorkshireman:

Ok, I did a second run this am and tried to create a segment for one of the hills the lollipop man set me. I'm very confused as I can't find my new segment on the map or in the segment search - not sure if it'll show up but here it is:
https://www.strava.com/segments/8862733

It's not just my segment I can't find. I can't find the one it gave me a cup for on the map but can via name search.

I have managed to inform it that I don't live in Rotherham. Why it assumed I did god alone knows! I'm looking forward to Friday and hope the weather holds for a proper run in the woods. I'm going to try and stick to the footpaths rather than shoot up the informal mud tracks (tend to be steeper but I'm sure no current segments will be on them as they evolve and change constantly). I'm really looking forward to seeing what people do in my stomping round.
 mbh 02 Feb 2015
In reply to flopsicle:

Lots of foot paths do get to be part of segments, just look out for them. Sometimes Strava gets confused by them, but mostly it gets it right, in my experience. Don't know why yours isn't appearing.

One other thing I like about Strava is that it is all about what people do. There are your own stats, and those of others to look at if you want to (I do, I love it), but the conversations you might have, and all the affirmations you get or give are only triggered by you or someone else doing something. There is no channel for private conversations, which I really like. All the comments are supportive, and I have found that to be a great help in getting out.

I joined a few local clubs, as well as UKC and FRA just to see where I stood, but also to get an idea of what other people do: where do they go, how far, how far up, how often etc. There are all sorts, and it is very interesting to see.

Lastly (for now) I love the Heat Maps you can do for your own running. There's a global one too for this - Google it - from which you may get a few ideas about where to go, locally and beyond.
OP flopsicle 02 Feb 2015
In reply to mbh:

Hehehehe... I was thinking who's that random bloke and why's he following me? Then I twigged when I saw UKC!

Doh!

It is looking promising for having more fun with running although I can't see me covering the big distances.
 jsmcfarland 08 Feb 2015
In reply to flopsicle:

I haven't read the rest of the replies but in regards to 'up' done at the climbing wall, that isn't really specific enough to be of any use I would thought? I record all my climbing with grade, and then toprope/lead and then whether onsight/redpoint/repeat/did not finish/dogged/whatever, and record in a notes box how far I got up (I use an excel spreadsheet for this) it makes some absolutely gorgeous graphs

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