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Eiger North Face

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 Superchop75 30 Jan 2015
So, I'm coming back from a few years out....

Is this a realistic five year plan??

I'm happy on rock to HVS. Winter to grade V.

I know its a massive undertaking.......

It's becoming a dream.

No trolls, just advice please.

Thanks,
1
 Steve Perry 30 Jan 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

A lot can happen in 5 years if your driven, doesn't seem too unrealistic.
 smithaldo 30 Jan 2015
In reply to Superchop75: if you have no commitments and can climb a lot then it's a doable dream.

That said, Everyone I know whose done it I would describe as hardcore climbers with a long dancecard of routes up to viii and e3-4 or much higher.

You need to be comfy on grades a lot harder than you are doing now but if you've got lots of free time why not.

OP Superchop75 30 Jan 2015
In reply to smithaldo:

Thanks for the advice.......

Like I said; it's my dream now.

If I can dream it............
 Bob 30 Jan 2015
OP Superchop75 30 Jan 2015
In reply to Bob:

Brilliant, thanks Bob.

This is the sort of info I'm looking for!!!

Cheers,

C
 Bob 30 Jan 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

Here's my write up done several (well twenty) years later - http://bobwightman.co.uk/climb/eiger_north_face.php

Just realised, it's 30 years this August that we did it.
OP Superchop75 30 Jan 2015
In reply to Bob:

Inspirational!

A privilege to read that thankyou...

Fuels the flames !!!

Cheers,

C



 Andrew Wilson 30 Jan 2015
In reply to Bob:

Really enjoyed reading that, thanks Bob.

It has made me want to climb this face even more! I wonder if I would be lucky enough to find it in such benign condition?!

Andy
 Robert Durran 30 Jan 2015
In reply to smithaldo:

> Everyone I know whose done it I would describe as hardcore climbers with a long dancecard of routes up to viii and e3-4 or much higher.

When I did it I hadn't climbed anything harder than VI (though back then VI was still considered reasonably hard), but I was routinely soloing up to IV mixed and V ice and doing a lot of Alpine climbing, so I had great confidence in my ability to cope in serious situations. Rock climbing is relatively unimportant.

 Goucho 30 Jan 2015
In reply to Superchop75:
The Eiger NF is basically a psychopath - the mountain equivalent of Hannibal Lecter. Let the history of it get too far into your head, and every pitch can be a bit of a mind f*ck - don't read The White Spider unless you've got the mental constitution of an Ox

Prior to my first attempt, I was climbing solid E4/5 rock and Grade V ice. I'd done a lot of long hard alpine routes including three other North Faces (Matterhorn, Grand Jorrasses, Droites) and other routes like the Bonatti Pillar, Cechinal Nomenee and Freney Pillar.

I can only comment regarding summer conditions - which apparently is a no go these days - and both my attempts ended in nightmare epic storm lashed retreats being bombarded by stonefall, avalanches and waterfalls - from Death Bivouac 1st attempt, and the Brittle Ledges 2nd attempt - which were scary as hell and extremely life threatening. The simplest way I can describe the way I felt, was 'Hunted'.

However, I've been told that in winter, it is a different beast, and not as unpredictable as it was in summer seasons.

Either way, it is a very long route, and in my humble opinion, you really do need to have plenty in reserve both in terms of grade and experience, because the technicality of this face, is only half of what constitutes the actual difficulty. It's very much a 'head game' and probably where I went wrong!

Personally, I would rather stick my head in the open mouth of a starving Lion, than set foot anywhere near the face again.

The best description of the face was actually penned by Joseph Conrad in his book Heart of Darkness - The Horror, The Horror....
Post edited at 23:15
 smithaldo 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:
Agreed that you don't 'need' to climb the grades I mentioned but most climbers nowadays don't have the cojones people did to just try big stuff and fail, so want a lot in the bank so to speak.

also with the internet and a change to a sort of show off culture I think people list the grade they climb as the hardest they've done, not what they are comfy on. So Robert doing the eiger after loads of iv/v soloing is different to the original question.

That's my theory anyway. Probably a load of rubbish.
 ericinbristol 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

Have a read of this: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3652.

Also, an option is being guided up it/relying on a much better climber and so mostly seconding up it. Ranulph Fiennes got guided up it by Kenton Cool and Ian Parnell: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=768
1
 StephenS 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

The N Face of the Eiger has always been my target since I started climbing two years ago. Gradually working towards it.
 StephenS 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Bob:

Bob, being 30 years ago, you wouldn't know a climber called Lindsay Rogers would you? He was climbing around that time including a couple of solo of the Eiger.
 petestack 31 Jan 2015
In reply to smithaldo:

> also with the internet and a change to a sort of show off culture I think people list the grade they climb as the hardest they've done, not what they are comfy on.

Perhaps. Nothing to do with the Eiger North Face because I've neither the desire nor the ability to tackle it, but my best onsights are listed here as E1 and V. It's what the UKC profile asks for and it's true, but ask me what I climb and I won't say E1 and V despite once getting put in my place here by someone who'd looked at my profile saying 'but you climb E1' (implying *only* E1). What I actually climb when I climb (too sporadically to consolidate at harder grades) is more typically VS (occasionally HVS) and III/IV, and I'd expect a similar differential to 'best onsights' from most more sporadic climbers. Claim harder to show off and you'll only get found out, whether because you're talking above your experience or teaming up with a new partner. But the OP said 'happy on rock to HVS. Winter to grade V', so I'd assume that means 'happy'.

> So Robert doing the eiger after loads of iv/v soloing is different to the original question.

Probably.

> That's my theory anyway. Probably a load of rubbish.

Probably true for some and not for others.
 Bob 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Littleslip:

> Bob, being 30 years ago, you wouldn't know a climber called Lindsay Rogers would you? He was climbing around that time including a couple of solo of the Eiger.

The name doesn't ring any bells, sorry. The only climber named Lindsay from that time I knew was Lindsay Griffin.

smithaldo: Yes, you need something "in hand" as it were. Also being accustomed to doing long routes at or near your comfortable limit. Some years ago there was an article about the Nose on El Cap that claimed that someone used to climbing three or four long HVS routes a day on Cloggy or similar crag was more likely to succeed than someone doing grit E4s.

I can't remember now just what grade I was climbing back in 1985 but it will have been around the E4 level, but that will have been consistent rather than just the occasional route, i.e. I will have climbed at that standard most weekends.
OP Superchop75 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Bob:

Some really great info there guys, thanks very much!

In reply to Goucho:

> The Eiger NF is basically a psychopath - the mountain equivalent of Hannibal Lecter. Let the history of it get too far into your head, and every pitch can be a bit of a mind f*ck - don't read The White Spider unless you've got the mental constitution of an Ox

Aww, blown my chances already! White spider has been my bedtime read for the last couple of weeks. Doesn't really encourage a peaceful sleep I have to say...

David

 Robert Durran 31 Jan 2015
In reply to smithaldo:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> Agreed that you don't 'need' to climb the grades I mentioned but most climbers nowadays don't have the cojones people did to just try big stuff and fail, so want a lot in the bank so to speak.

Maybe, but I would still argue that loads of experience climbing grade V in all sorts of conditions (and, even more importantly, plenty of relevant alpine experience) is better qualification than a couple of grade VIII ticks in the Northern Corries. These days some peole seem to progress rapidly to such grades without actually being all that experienced!
 Robert Durran 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Goucho:
> Personally, I would rather stick my head in the open mouth of a starving Lion, than set foot anywhere near the face again.

Me too (I felt slightly sick just looking at it last time I was in the Alps!) but I think the biggest difference between the eighties and nowadays is the availabilty of accurate weather forecasts and conditions reports; you only need to stick your head in ther lion's mouth when it is sedated and sound asleep.
 Theseboots 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

Spot on, Robert.
 Rick Graham 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Bob:


> smithaldo: Yes, you need something "in hand" as it were. Also being accustomed to doing long routes at or near your comfortable limit. Some years ago there was an article about the Nose on El Cap that claimed that someone used to climbing three or four long HVS routes a day on Cloggy or similar crag was more likely to succeed than someone doing grit E4s.

Seeing as how you suggested I get involved , Bob

Done the Nose and 38 route, both dream routes.

AK did a good article on preparing yourself for the Nose.
IMHO climbing 3-5 routes on consecutive days at up to E3 is more like it than 3-4 at HVS on Cloggy. Also having good jugging and hauling technique and good at mixed free/aid. Several 900m high alpine rock routes at ED1 under your belt.



> I can't remember now just what grade I was climbing back in 1985 but it will have been around the E4 level, but that will have been consistent rather than just the occasional route, i.e. I will have climbed at that standard most weekends.

That's what your logbook implies Bob, but I think it is a bit selective, we / you often had a lot more heavy duty days out.
Also a lot of the E2 and E3 we did then are now E4.

Back on to the Eiger, I can fully understand Goucho's feelings, multiplying how epic it can be just getting back from the Swallows Nest in a storm never mind the Brittle Ledges FFS.

Regarding summer ascents nowadays , I wonder how much of this is "fashion" and peer pressure. The weather is probably more predictable in Winter but for the full " White Spider experience " , summer only. I like the maxim " you can climb through conditions but you can't climb through (bad )weather " , it is very relevant to the 38 route.

Regarding fitness and climbing ability, around the time I did the 38 route, was climbing the odd E5, 7a+, old school VI, soloing IV/V like Robert. The week before we did a sub 8 hour ascent of the Salbit West Ridge, also climbing a route the evening before and the morning after. Although climbing light hoping for a one day ascent from a bivi in the tunnel entrance, got spanked by a hard variation to the Ice Hose and a very wet Waterfall pitch. Only really had a grade spare for the Eiger. We counted 60 pitches from the tunnel to the summit, its a long way.


 Bob 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

The comment about The Nose wasn't mine (having not done it).

I've only logged the first time I did a route in my logbook so days when I repeated routes aren't represented so, yes, somewhat selective. I think we made the most of getting out on to the big crags: I remember a morning on Dow Crag with Al Phizacklea (he had to get back for something), we did Close to Critical, Holocaust, Rough and Tumble, so that's 4 E4s in a couple of hours. Steeple and Haystack on the Shelterstone in a day. Not untypical.

I'm wondering if the penchant for winter or semi-winter ascents is more about hedging your bets: you are more likely to get consistent conditions; winters don't seem to be as bad weather wise compared to earlier times. Maybe it's one of those modern myths that the 38 route is too dangerous in summer but having not been back on the face in summer since our ascent I'm not in a position to refute it.
 planetmarshall 31 Jan 2015
In reply to smithaldo:

> That said, Everyone I know whose done it I would describe as hardcore climbers with a long dancecard of routes up to viii and e3-4 or much higher.

Yet the first ascensionists climbed to nowhere near that standard, and without the benefit of modern equipment and clothing.

 Rick Graham 31 Jan 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

I wonder how hard Heckmeir could boulder or solo in tennis shoes or nailed boots compared to modern climbers?

Level the playing field.

Tough as they come I guess.
 GridNorth 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

Been on it twice and both times became epic fights for survival. Never again.
 Goucho 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> I wonder how hard Heckmeir could boulder or solo in tennis shoes or nailed boots compared to modern climbers?

> Level the playing field.

> Tough as they come I guess.

There have been lots of relatively modern day climbers who climbed the hardest alpine routes but who didn't set the world on fire on rock - Haston (Dougal), Tasker & MacKintyre immediately come to mind - climbing at best E2 if I'm correct?

However, they were superb on big knarly mountain routes, no doubt due to a combination of great mixed climbing ability and being as hard as nails when things got serious.

The guy I made my second attempt on the Eiger with (sadly no longer with us) only climbed about E2 on rock and V on ice, yet he was the hardest, toughest man I've ever met, with an ability to find another, almost superhuman, gear when the brown stuff hit the fan. If it wasn't for him, I'm certain I would have probably perished on that face on the fourth day.
 Goucho 31 Jan 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

> Been on it twice and both times became epic fights for survival. Never again.

+1

In fact I stopped climbing for three years after my second epic, and never climbed another hard alpine route again!

Both attempts were the worst climbing experiences of my life, and have probably left me permanently scarred psychologically - nurse!
 Rick Graham 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> There have been lots of relatively modern day climbers who climbed the hardest alpine routes but who didn't set the world on fire on rock - Haston (Dougal), Tasker & MacKintyre immediately come to mind - climbing at best E2 if I'm correct?

Fair comment. Pure technical ability on rock is not as important as being able to frigg your way up anyhow in any conditions.

But I think you are being a bit harsh about Haston and Tasker.
They were possibly only one notch down from the top rock jocks of their day.
I climbed with Joe a couple of times in 1972, he talked about The Skull and other routes, quite hard in the late 60's.
 pamph 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

LIke David Kay, I too read 'The White Spider', (back in the sixties) and that put me off the face for ever. Travelling to Kleine Scheidegge (?) in the eighties and looking at it didn't change my opinion either.
Two friends did it in the nineties, and one of them dropped a crampon on the first bivvy. They retreated to the train window, descended, got some more crampons and went back to complete the climb. I asked one how it went, and he reckoned it was straightforward, with no real issues. However this may have been British understatement!
 Patrick G 31 Jan 2015
 jcw 31 Jan 2015
In reply to Superchop75: interesting thread. Good to see some of the real hard boys expressing themselves. Makes one humble

 Robert Durran 31 Jan 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Yet the first ascensionists climbed to nowhere near that standard, and without the benefit of modern equipment and clothing.

But they were amongst the finest alpinists of their day. If they had been born 70 years later they would have been cruising Scottish VIII and pulling off cutting edge superalpinism in the greater ranges.
 Rick Graham 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> But they were amongst the finest alpinists of their day. If they had been born 70 years later they would have been cruising Scottish VIII and pulling off cutting edge superalpinism in the greater ranges.

Robert, thank you for putting that point over far better than my attempt.

to Goucho and jcw. I have been fortunate to have had no major epics or battles in the mountains. More people may have stood on the Moon than retreated successfully from the Brittle ledges, to use a popular comparison.

To bear my soul.
I am unsure that I could have managed to do it myself. Good to climb it but just lucky? I will never know.
 jcw 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:
Hi Rick. You raise an issue I have often wanted to ask when you say you have had no epics. I am firmly of the belief that there is no one who has seriously mountaineered who can put hand on heart and say they have never been lucky to get away with it on at least one occasion. I count four. One which we did so by doing the right thing as per the theory which actually worked, a second due to the skill of my leader, but the other two!!. And when I think of others who didn't through sheer bad luck... I'd be interested to know what you and others think. Perhaps things have changed.
 Goucho 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> to Goucho and jcw. I have been fortunate to have had no major epics or battles in the mountains. More people may have stood on the Moon than retreated successfully from the Brittle ledges, to use a popular comparison.

It was a nightmare Rick, and as I said in an earlier post, so much down to my partner that we survived.

Conditions on the face were that classic Eiger cocktail of horrible storms, streaming waterfalls, stonefall and avalanches during the day, and then flash freezes at night, where your soaked clothing freezes into a suit of armour.

It only took us about 4/5 hours to get back down the Ramp to Death Bivi (abbing down the wall right of the Waterfall pitch to try and stay dryer), but we got hemmed in by a ferocious storm at Death Bivi for about 18 hours. The stonefall and avalanches were so bad, that we decided to climb up and right from the Flat Iron to the top of the Second Icefield, and traverse across there - that took a whole day, followed by a really crap bivi on a hacked out ledge just big enough to sit on - that night was especially horrible!!!

The following day wasn't too bad in the morning, and we realised that our bivi site was only a couple of rope lengths above the Swallows Nest!!!

Getting back across the Hinterstoiser was a nightmare. It was horrendously verglassed and we had to use a combination of 2 old knackered ropes - one of which snapped resulting in me getting my right thigh punctured by crampons and my nose broken. We were aiming for the Gallery Window, but missed the ledge system in the storm, and so carried on down in a 13/14 hour push to the top of the Difficult Crack where we bivi'd for the last time. That was the night I reached the stage of 'f*ck it' just let me die.

Somehow, we survived the night, and eventually reached the foot of the face around midday - the lower part of the face being very precarious and constantly swept by avalanches..

I spent 4 days in the clinic in Leysin with frostbite and various lacerations (my face looked like I'd done 10 rounds with Joe Frazier) and lost 2 toes on my right foot.

12 months later I was still having nightmares and waking up screaming soaked in sweat. My girlfriend at the time, and my father thought I should go and see someone about it, but eventually they did fade away.


 Robert Durran 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> But they were amongst the finest alpinists of their day. If they had been born 70 years later they would have been cruising Scottish VIII and pulling off cutting edge superalpinism in the greater ranges.

And judging by the appalling death rate amongst the early candidates for the Eiger, they were prepared to really push the boat out in a way that maybe fewer do nowadays.

 Goucho 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> And judging by the appalling death rate amongst the early candidates for the Eiger, they were prepared to really push the boat out in a way that maybe fewer do nowadays.

Those early pioneers were made of something I do not pretend to understand Robert. For instance IIRC an Austrian pair making an early repeat, had one pair of crampons between them, and took an old overcoat as a bivi tent!!!!!!!
 blackcat 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho: I find your story fascinating,ukc should have a option for climbers like you to be able to write there epics on here, i for one would read it.
 Robert Durran 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> Those early pioneers were made of something I do not pretend to understand Robert. For instance IIRC an Austrian pair making an early repeat, had one pair of crampons between them, and took an old overcoat as a bivi tent!!!!!!!

And their bivi food probably consisted of nails.

Great story of your epic retreat from the Brittle Ledges. Was the unthinkable only undertaken because it was truly impossible to go on? The weather crapped out on us at the Brittle Ledges, but we felt totally committed by then.
 Goucho 01 Feb 2015
In reply to blackcat:

> I find your story fascinating,ukc should have a option for climbers like you to be able to write there epics on here, i for one would read it.

Thanks, but I think success stories are probably more interesting than failures. And besides, I don't want to have to go into therapy again
In reply to Superchop75:
I've read this thread with interest. We did it last winter and I've been mulling over whether to post or not. It's one of my biggest ticks but I don't know why, maybe it comes with being past 30 but I don't get the urge to talk about it that much - I think it's also partly because it's so far removed from most people's awareness that they don't really understand - however, some of you who have been on it, or want to, might find my partner's write up interesting.

http://grahaminchamonix.blogspot.fr/2014_03_01_archive.html

I had plenty of moments of doubt during our adventure, but only two times was I really shitting it - the approach slopes, soloing 2-300m above the lower slopes with very insecure and tricky unprotectable steps. That and the summit ice fields - while trying to work our way to the summit, we were moving together; I think we maybe had one ice screw between us and I got a bit hemmed in by some thinner ice, I kicked my foot left into a patch which sheered off, my balance went a little and then both axes wobbled. I screamed at the top of my voice for Graham to make himself as safe as possible in case I came off, then gently moved back right. I nearly vomited from fear. Without being too melodramatic I think I, no, we were very close to going the length of the face.

Even a year later, I'm glad I never have to go back.
Post edited at 16:30
 Goucho 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> And their bivi food probably consisted of nails.

> Great story of your epic retreat from the Brittle Ledges. Was the unthinkable only undertaken because it was truly impossible to go on? The weather crapped out on us at the Brittle Ledges, but we felt totally committed by then.

I think you're probably made of sterner stuff than me Robert.

I felt it was tantamount to suicide to carry on. The storm hit us so quickly, and was so fierce - the wind was brutal, blowing this horrible wet snow horizontally, and you could hear the avalanches and stonefall crashing down onto the Spider and running off it - I've never heard noise like that it the mountains before or since.

But to be honest, I was by then in such a bad place mentally (Deja Vu from earlier attempt), that I had no self belief that I could cope with what lay above anymore. Psychologically the face had me beat!

With hindsight, we should have sat it out on the Brittle Ledges (it's a pretty good bivi spot by Eiger standards), and gone for it, but I'd always prided myself on being very cunning and determined when it came to retreating.

Hand on heart, I think I am probably still haunted by the Eiger to a degree. It remains a demon that can never be slain now.
1
 GridNorth 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

IMO when the conditions are just right experienced, competent mountaineers will probably find it straightforward. It's not technically hard but when the conditions deteriorate it's a potential death trap and unless, like Groucho, you have been on the face at those times it's difficult to get across how bad it is. On the second attempt my partner suffered a broken ankle through stone fall on the second icefield. We carried on to Death Bivi as it offered some shelter and set off down the following morning. It took us two days and it was difficult at times to tell if it was hail or stones that were constantly bombarding us. The face is one of the most oppressive feeling places I have ever been. In reality it's a huge tottering mass of loose rock just waiting to be released from the snow and ice when the temperature rises.
 Robert Durran 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> I think you're probably made of sterner stuff than me Robert.

No. You clearly had it much worse than we did.

 Goucho 01 Feb 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

I agree. About a fortnight after I got back home, Two of my friends got it in good conditions, and pissed up it in 15 hours, wondering what all the fuss was about?
 Goucho 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> No. You clearly had it much worse than we did.

Possibly.

A funny story to follow on from your 'feeling sick' looking at it when on a skiing holiday after your ascent.

A few years after my epic, I was on a skiing holiday in Wengen with my second wife. For 3 days I avoided looking at the face, but on the fourth day, I got up early and did some off piste. I reached one vantage point which gave me a good view looking across at it. So I stopped, and proceeded to spend the next few minutes angrily shouting insults across at it. Just as i finished my final tirade along the lines of "you tried to kill me you f*cker, but look, I'm still here, so eat that!!" I turned round to see a group of 4 American skiers looking at me with serious concern on their faces.

Somewhat embarrassed, I quickly skied off. Later that afternoon, we were having a coffee, and one of them noticed me and came across to inquire if I was alright, or should she see if there was a doctor around?



 Rick Graham 01 Feb 2015
In reply to jcw:

> Hi Rick. You raise an issue I have often wanted to ask when you say you have had no epics.

Hi j, we have met many times in Cham and Cleveland Club do's, but I don't know if you remember a PITA young hothead.
When I said no epics, sure I have come off the hill wetter, later and more knackered than I would wish but nothing to compare with Goucho's battle.
I have also had some very close calls soloing, with ropework ,lightning and stonefall, these are what I personally get cold sweats over.

Now, here is perhaps the sad bit, in spite ( or maybe because ) of these horror stories, WS , G, RD, and plenty others in Mountain Magazine and the above mentioned Cleveland Club lectures I still wanted, needed to climb the Eiger NF.
I really regret not trying it in 78 and 80, when I was very fit ( but maybe my head was not up to it then). A bad rock climbing accident in 82 stopped me alpine climbing until 87, but it was all about getting fit enough to do the 38 route. It gets into your head, an obsession .
We had two attempts and soakings in the few days before the weather held. Finishing the route was a dream but you still have that nagging doubt if you were as mentally, physically strong as Goucho and his mate had to be.

Now, the really sad bit. At 61, with my body still usually coping with any demands despite the various damage inflicted on it , I still feel I have not tried enough. Geneva Pillar, anybody?

 Mick Ward 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> So I stopped, and proceeded to spend the next few minutes angrily shouting insults across at it. Just as i finished my final tirade along the lines of "you tried to kill me you f*cker, but look, I'm still here, so eat that!!" I turned round to see a group of 4 American skiers looking at me with serious concern on their faces.

Time for you to feel a little better Goucho... Once upon a time, I had a really bad day on a route. I'd love to say it was the Eiger but nope, it was a bloody sport route in Spain. (And that's enough clues; I'm not saying where or what!) A couple of years later, I was back in the area. This time it would have been a formality (well, hopefully). One wet day, I walked to the crag and gazed up at sea of dripping tufa, thinking, "F*ck you!" Next step was to spray the ground at the bottom with wee. (Impressive or what?) And then I stomped off, feeling much less bad about things.

I'd been climbing with some Swedes. And next day, they told me that, for some unknown reason (wet day boredom?) lots of folk had been watching me through binoculars. "And they wondered what you were doing. But we understand you, Mick, we knew exactly what you were doing."

It really doesn't get much more embarrassing than that. So feel better. You had immeasurably more impressive cause.

Mick

 Robert Durran 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Mick Ward:

> It really doesn't get much more embarrassing than that

It could have been an indoor boulder problem.
 Rick Graham 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

It is a bit different in the internet age.

But how many Eiger aspirants have sat on the benches outside the Grindlewald tourist office with a copy of the latest (very mixed and indefinite ) weather forecast and tried to make a (possibly life or death ) decision on when to sneak in an ascent in a weather window?
 Goucho 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> It is a bit different in the internet age.

> But how many Eiger aspirants have sat on the benches outside the Grindlewald tourist office with a copy of the latest (very mixed and indefinite ) weather forecast and tried to make a (possibly life or death ) decision on when to sneak in an ascent in a weather window?



Prior to our attempt, there had been 2 days a very settled weather, with the forecast predicting another 3 - had we gone a day earlier, we would have been ok, but I was still not fully psyched up for it - if I ever really was?

The storm was one of those sneaky Eiger one's that creep in from the south and drop down the face.
 Goucho 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Mick Ward:

Bless you Mick
 Goucho 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:
> We had two attempts and soakings in the few days before the weather held. Finishing the route was a dream but you still have that nagging doubt if you were as mentally, physically strong as Goucho and his mate had to be.

I think I got lucky Rick, in both my partner, and possibly a guardian angel?

> Now, the really sad bit. At 61, with my body still usually coping with any demands despite the various damage inflicted on it , I still feel I have not tried enough. Geneva Pillar, anybody?

No
Post edited at 18:40
 rogerwebb 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

>
>
> Hand on heart, I think I am probably still haunted by the Eiger to a degree.

I know exactly what you mean, the last place I could see with both eyes was just below the brittle ledges.
 Rick Graham 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

To the OP.

Are you more or less up for the route after this mental therapy session?
 ashtond6 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

amazing write up, I genuinely felt sad for you whilst reading it

Glad you survived

I got into climbing through reading books about the Matterhorn / Eiger / Everest... turns out I hate that stuff and just love belays!
 Toby_W 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Fultonius:

My enthusiasm often used to outstrip my ability, your words leave me sat here feeling a little uncomfortable. Well written, well expressed and I think these things strip away pretence.

Anyway, cheers.

Toby

 Goucho 01 Feb 2015
In reply to ashtond6:

Just to get even more macabre here's a little something I wrote a couple of years after the event, in an attempt to get some closure. Spoiler Alert, it was heavily influenced by drink and pathetic self pity!

With apologies to Christy Brown.

MY RIGHT FOOT

You never leave me alone.
In the shower, you stare up at me, deformed. A permanent scar, but worse than that, you are a constant reminder of the much deeper scar in my head.
You remind me every day of that face.
That face, which haunts me. That face which taunts me last thing at night, taunts me through my nightmares, and is still there taunting and haunting me as I greet each new day of taunting.
That face which f*cked my head to the point where I pushed away the person who stood by me, nursed me, nurtured me, protected me, and did everything she could to bring me back from the hideous clutch of that face . There were three of us in a dark ménage et trois, with the ghost of that face laughing, mocking, sneering in yet another victory over my weakness – the pain that keeps on giving.
That face I try to drink out of my head. But the drinking only turns the haunting into anger, and then a rage, lashing out at a demon that cannot be exorcised.
That face, which exposed my weakness, my darkest fears, will never go as long as you keep reminding me that three were once five, and my head was once strong.
And in the cold, you still hurt me, that tingling of loss. And with the hurting, comes the hurting in my head, a dark malaise creeping down on me just as that storm crept down from behind and above, to envelope me in the freezing Hades of that face.
Worst of all, you remind me that I cannot get back on this particular horse. Not because of you, but because of the memory that is in my head.
The memory that remains of that Face, and the fear.
 nclarey 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Incredibly helpful bit of perspective there - thanks for your honesty.
 mountainbagger 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

This is quite possibly the best thread I've ever read on UKC. Amazing insight, honesty and very moving.

I will never fully understand what it took to go through what you and others have on this face, but I understand just that little bit more today. Perhaps more so than any books I've read.

Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences - all of you.
 Robert Durran 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Wow. You definitely had it much, much worse than me. I just thought "been there, done that and I don't want to and am glad I don't have to do anything like that again". On the other hand it was and will probably remain the most intense and rewarding five days of my climbing life; the experience of spending the last two days thinking there was a reasonable chance I might die (if the weather got much worse or one of us fell off) was an interesting - and I mean interesting rather than terrifying (except at particular moments) - and probably valuable experience.
In reply to mountainbagger:

I'm with you there. Amazing thread.
 jcw 01 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:
Hi Rick, I know we've met in Chamonix, though Cleveland is not my neck of the woods. Ships in the night, even if yours was under full sail while mine was mere cabotage, to mix metaphors. But I would be interested to see other responses to the proposition I made about getting away with it. In an case I agree that this is perhaps the most remarkable thread to appear on UKC, certainly in the time I've been following it. It is great to see sustained discussion of serious mountaineering issues by those who really know what they are talking about. As too the remarkable sentiment expressed by Goucho in both his harrowing account of their retreat on the Eiger and its literary expression. I had almost given up expecting to find anything worthwhile being discussed in these forums.
 Bob 01 Feb 2015
In reply to jcw:

I do think that we were very lucky in our ascent. We followed a storm through from Chamonix which fixed virtually all of the potential stone fall in place. Pre internet, even pre cautious alpine weather forecasts, but with a warning from the camp warden. There was still that oppressive air but it was as if the ogre had drawn breath and taken his eye off the ball and we had nipped in before he had time to realise.

I remember going to a Chris Bonington lecture in the mid 1960s at The Theatre in the Forest in Grizedale about his attempts and ascent so it's history and reputation was embedded at an early age. Add in multiple readings of The Whie Spider and an impressionable youth was hooked.

I was lucky.
OP Superchop75 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:
I've definitely got plenty to think about there Rick!
Some interesting and inspirational reports and some fairly harrowing accounts to match. I certainly won't be rushing into anything; hopefully the five years will give me time to get body and mind into the right shape!!
Thanks again for all the contributions.
C

1
 apache 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

Come to this debate quite late but would agree with the comments about determination and experience rather than cranking out the high E grade rock climbing (is that really important when ice climbing?). I used to climb with an Irish guy Paul Harrington, in Aberdeen, who Rob Durran may remember. Not a particularily high grade climber in those days but very competant. His account is here
http://www.climbing.ie/exped/eiger/eiger.html
 Goucho 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:
Don't let my experience put you off, those kind of epics are probably not the norm these days, we were just unlucky

Also, I tend to get a bit over emotional about the Eiger, as it has had a profound and deep psychological impact on me.

As others have said, in good conditions (and modern forecasting is a big advantage in finding a weather window) and with today's gear, it can be relatively straightforward - although at almost 6000' of climbing, it is a long route - for an experienced and competent alpinist.

Technically there are far harder routes, although the combination of loose shattered rock one minute, and then smooth blank rock the next takes a bit of getting used to, and irrespective of grade, makes the climbing quite bold and somewhat insecure - especially as decent gear is usually sparse. The ice can also be both poxy rotten shite, and boiler plate hard - although I can only comment on summer conditions, winter is probably completely different.

Of course, the danger of stonefall and avalanche is always there, and this aspect of the Eigers artillery is what makes it so deadly in the wrong conditions.

What changes everything is, bad weather!

Its size, and it's structure, means that once a storm hits, the concave nature of the face seems to create a vortex, trapping the storm. Changes in wind direction only whip a storm into more of a frenzy. So whereas with other mountains, a storm will pass through, with the Eiger, you have to wait for it to blow itself out - which could be several days if it's a bad one.

And if you have to force a retreat, the meandering traversing nature of the route makes it a long exposed and arduous proposition. Combine this with the invariably horrible conditions the face is left in post a storm, and you are in a pretty serious situation.

Just to put things into context however, before we got hit by the storm, we had reached Death Bivi on our first day on the face, and despite a soaking wrestle with the Waterfall pitch at the top of the Ramp (worst most horrible pitch I've ever climbed by the way), reached the Brittle Ledges by around 11.30 the following morning. So if the weather had held, despite the constant anxiety and twitching of my sphincter, I reckon we would have topped out in 2 days.
Post edited at 10:36
1
 Hugh Cottam 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

If I remember correctly Robert, you did actually shit yourself on your ascent. I recall your tail of scraping your Helly-Hansens out with a postcard during the train-ride down. I'm assuming it was probably quite a lot worse than getting snowed in on Jebel Rum.
 Jamie B 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

Alternatively, just go and do loads of winter and alpine climbing, and get progressively better at it. Do some really cool routes which you will enjoy loads, and which may or may not include the 1938 route...
 Es Tresidder 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:
Some good reading on this thread!

I'd reiterate what has been said above about it being a different beast in the conditions it is normally climbed in now (winter or autumn/spring), and with better forecasts and knowledge of when it's in good condition from the internet.

My dad climbed it in 1983, in the summer, on his second attempt (I think). His stories sound very very different from my experience on it 22 years later: rocks the size of wardrobes falling down the face, things not even freezing up at night, seeing a ghost at death bivi etc.

My autumnal ascent with Pete Benson wasn't without incident (we saw a base jumper crash into the face just below the gallery window when we were thereabouts, not nice), but for the most part the climbing was on the "fun" side of difficult and bold (although I remember being impressed by how difficult it was, thinking "1938?!?! WOW!"). There was only one pitch that really gave me the heebie jeebies; the first exit chimney pitch. We'd spent the night on the ledge below this (which is where I think Corti and Longhi had their epic) after going the wrong way out of the Spider and subsequently not getting to the top from Death bivi as planned. We'd texted some friends to say we were going to be a day late. Having climbed the route the previous year they knew what was next and texted both of us back saying to Pete "make sure Es leads the next pitch" to and to me "make sure Pete leads the next pitch". Unfortunately I didn't have my phone with me so set off the innocuous looking pitch first thing the next morning without a worry in the world. In good conditions this pitch might be quite easy, but it was horrible for me; verglassed rock but never anywhere near thick enough for a tool or screw, small, sloping holds, no gear for a very long way, progressively harder and more precarious the higher you got and a ledge to hit if you fluffed it. Having climbed ground that was too hard to down climb I briefly contemplated whether I could hold on long enough (with bare fingers) for Pete to raise a rescue by his mobile phone, quickly realised this wasn't going to happen, swallowed my fear and did the next few moves to an in situ peg. Photo of that pitch here: http://www.es-on-ice.co.uk/photo/info/73?gallery=2

Re-reading the white spider I think this is the pitch that Heckmair fell off, put his crampons into somebody's thigh, downed a vial of amphetamines and went back up to fight again! Impressive. Speaking to my dad afterwards he said this pitch hadn't been that hard for them (not iced up) but it had been memorable for the constant flow of tiny stones as you bridged up the chimney!

In terms of difficulty in summer versus wintery conditions, it sounds to me like winter makes a few of the pitches harder (difficult crack? brittle crack? Maybe some others), but not ridiculous if you're used to climbing rocky mixed routes, and it makes several of the pitches a lot easier (ice hose, waterfall chimney) and the whole face a lot safer.

Take care and enjoy!
Post edited at 11:41
 Robert Durran 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Hugh Cottam:

> If I remember correctly Robert, you did actually shit yourself on your ascent. I recall your tail of scraping your Helly-Hansens out with a postcard during the train-ride down

Yes I did shit myself. That was on the penultimate pitch before the summit icefield on rotten disintegrating ice with a joke tool belay in rotten disintegrating ice. It was the last of three pitches which I would not have led if there had been any possibility at all of retreat, the other two being The Traverse of Gods (powder over rotten rock while being bombarded by spindrift avalanches) and the nightmare pitch in the final chimneys which Es has talked about. I was probably beyond fear by this point and climbing in automatic survival mode. It was just that following two really grim spindrift pummelled bivouacs, lashed to a single icescrew at the top of the Spider and then hanging from the ropes in the exit chimneys, I hadn't had a chance to take off my harness for three days and nature had to take its course. Amusingly, Joe Simpson, in his book The Beckoning Silence, finds an excuse to recount this incident but says that I shat myself when I actually fell off and then improbably somehow managed to stop myself, "voiding his bowels in the moment of terror". Clearly he doesn't mind a little embellishment getting in the way of a true story - and has to get the word "void" in somewhere

The only other two times I've shat myself climbing have been in Coire an t'Sneachda, but that was while belaying and entirely the fault of very slow climbing partners........ but I made sure I scraped my long johns out before going for a coffee in Mambos.

> I'm assuming it was probably quite a lot worse than getting snowed in on Jebel Rum.

No, no, Jebel Rum was much worse. My psychological scars make Goucho's look like mere scratches!

 Goucho 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

It was just that following two really grim spindrift pummelled bivouacs, lashed to a single icescrew at the top of the Spider and then hanging from the ropes in the exit chimneys,

If I had to choose between my last two bivis on the face during our retreat, and your last two, I'd choose mine Robert.

Total respect to you for not self imploding!

I think I would have been escorted off to a mental institution in a long sleeve duvet that fastens up the back, dribbling and making whimpering noises!!!

 JamButty 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:
Pity Heinrichs passed away, all this cries out for a White Spider II

Great Thread!!
Post edited at 13:17
 planetmarshall 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

Great thread, but at the moment I'm mostly amused that it appears below "Warm Sunny Scrambles in September" in the forum thread index.
 Goucho 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:
I've just been looking back through old diaries, and in my 'gear taken' notes, I've got 80 Rothmans King Size listed.

My partner didn't smoke, so bearing in mind I had to cadge a fag off someone back in kleine Scheidegg on route to hospital, I obviously went through the lot, which under Terry King's alternative alpine grading system, makes it much harder than the Freney Pillar - I only took 20 on that!

My mood has lightened as Mrs Goucho is due home later today after being at her sisters for a week
Post edited at 13:17
 Goucho 02 Feb 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Great thread, but at the moment I'm mostly amused that it appears below "Warm Sunny Scrambles in September" in the forum thread index.

No doubt there'll be some hard bastard walking about chewing steel and spitting rivets, who thinks it is
 Bob 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

My partner smoked (still does I think). He ran out somewhere about the ramp. By the time we got to the bivvy at the Brittle Ledges he was getting desperate. Ensconsed in the best seats were three American climbers all dressed in full North Face alpine suits. "Any of you guys got a cigarette?" my mate pleaded. All three replied in unison (there should have been four of them to make a barber's quartet!) "No! We gave that up at school"! It's the only time I've ever felt sorry for a smoker

Es: The Exit Cracks just felt like three (?) pitches of extremely insecure mixed climbing over verglassed rock, virtually nothing in the way of gear or belays (well certainly not the three bombproof pieces that are mandatory at Stanage), mentally it was by far the most trying section made harder by resisting the urge of summit fever. The exposure of the final snow arete didn't help matters after two days inside that bowl.
 Robert Durran 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Es Tresidder:

> The first exit chimney pitch................I briefly contemplated whether I could hold on long enough (with bare fingers) for Pete to raise a rescue by his mobile phone, quickly realised this wasn't going to happen, swallowed my fear and did the next few moves to an in situ peg.

Was that a yellow peg? About 30 or 40 feet up that pitch with no gear, bridging on powdered verglassed rock, I really began to lose it. Starting to shake, I frantically scraped at the snow, hoping I'd find something. I've never been so glad to get protection as when I uncovered that peg, clipped in and hung on it.
 pneame 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:
This thread is immaculate - my first climbing book was Peter Gillman's "Eiger Direct" (Chemistry Prize at O level - the people reading this thread will know what O levels were...) and apart from the 3 years immediately after reading it, I never had even the slightest desire to do the Eiger N face. Pretty much as soon as I knew what what I was doing in the mountains (or really a bit before I knew what I was doing, to be honest), I realized that I didn't have the nerve and that as soon as I got about halfway up the easy stuff at the bottom I would be whimpering like a beaten puppy.
Post edited at 19:22
 Es Tresidder 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

Bob: The rest of the climbing in the exit chimneys seemed straightforward after that first pitch, but I can imagine the whole thing might be grim in some conditions. I think we had useable ice after the first pitch (and I think we did it in two). I heard a good story from a friend of mine who'd climbed the route a few years before us, a soloist caught them at the bottom of the exit chimneys. He had 30 feet of rope which he clipped into the belay and asked my mate to unclip it for him when he ran out of rope. Well you can imagine exactly where he was when the rope had to be unclipped, and shaking a lot apparently. Shook his way through the next few moves to the security of the peg.

Robert: I can't remember the colour of the peg, but I imagine it might well be the same one. There was nowhere near enough snow or ice on the pitch when I climbed it to conceal any in situ gear, so it will have been the first piece I came to, and yeah, about 30 or 40 feet up, first bit of gear!
 Robert Durran 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Es Tresidder:

> The rest of the climbing in the exit chimneys seemed straightforward after that first pitch, but I can imagine the whole thing might be grim in some conditions. I think we had useable ice after the first pitch.

There was no ice for us at all in those chimneys (like the Traverse of The Gods, only powder on verglassed rock) and above them only rotten stuff a bit like wet sugar on a roof of loose slates. Our last bivi was pretty much hanging on abseil ropes below the last of three pitches in the chimneys after my partner had led it to a rare good belay but it was by then dark and my headtorch has failed and he'd dropped his. If we had had any idea that we'd find these conditions, even without the weather breaking, I don't think we'd have gone on the face. The excellent snow ice low down was quite seductive......

> Well you can imagine exactly where he was when the rope had to be unclipped, and shaking a lot apparently.

That's horrific!
 Goucho 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Bob:

> My partner smoked (still does I think). He ran out somewhere about the ramp. By the time we got to the bivvy at the Brittle Ledges he was getting desperate. Ensconsed in the best seats were three American climbers all dressed in full North Face alpine suits. "Any of you guys got a cigarette?" my mate pleaded. All three replied in unison (there should have been four of them to make a barber's quartet!) "No! We gave that up at school"! It's the only time I've ever felt sorry for a smoker

There's something rather special about a fag on a good bivi Bob, and even more so when it's a bad one!


 Tim Sparrow 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

What a great thread. Livened up a day of feeling rubbish with manflu, not sure if the sweaty palms were due to reading the epics and looking at the pictures or the lurgy.
The exit chimneys will stop me sleeping well tonight, especially the picture of Es 40ft up, scraping away and holding it together.
Thanks guys.
 Rick Graham 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> There's something rather special about a fag on a good bivi Bob, and even more so when it's a bad one!

I used to prefer to save the lighter to light the stove for some lukewarm Staminade, magic.

Have completely different recollection of leading the pitch after the Corti Bivi and relishing the situation, magic wide bridging past useless snow in the bed, palming hands with most crampon points touching big rounded verglassed holds as the rope arced back to the belay. Glad I wasn't battling a storm and thinking how the grade would not be reduced for using modern gear . My experience could have been down to the conditions on the hour or maybe my mind just happened to be in a special zone. My footwork is usually only good when the handholds are better.
I don't want to appear elitist with the last paragraph but really I must have been "on one", it felt like a three star Severe pitch at Stanage.
Like you say, G , the place warps your mind.
In reply to Rick Graham:

It seems like we all got the route in totally different conditions. For us, the hardest pitches were the one immediately after the waterfall pitch - straight up was a huge snow mushroom that could not be climbed, and was too big to try and knock off, so I ended up going up a thinly!! iced wall on the left, very thin and tenuous moves with no gear from the belay. For me, that was the key to the upper half of the face. Graham found the quartz crack pretty tricky. For us the difficult crack, ice hose, waterfall pitch, and brittle ledges were all "ok".

The exit chimneys were pretty intense, but kind of steady-away. I think by that point we were a bit numbed to the exposure. I do remember a few pitches up the exit cracks (or was it one, long pitch?) I missed a potential escape to the right and continued upwards in the chimney/groove. The last few metres were horrendous, loose, unprotected ridge shuffling!


 Misha 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:
A thought provoking story and a powerful piece of writing. Makes you think whether it is worth the risk.
 Rick Graham 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Fultonius:
> It seems like we all got the route in totally different conditions. For us, the hardest pitches were the one immediately after the waterfall pitch - straight up was a huge snow mushroom that could not be climbed, and was too big to try and knock off, so I ended up going up a thinly!! iced wall on the left, very thin and tenuous moves with no gear from the belay.

I know exactly the pitch! The snow mushroom probably sent you the best way anyhow. The bed of the gully is blank. I think Harrer's original desc had it harder than the pitch either side but no special name for it.

It was dry for us, but still climbed in crampons, but I had the advantage of being able to see and use several small wires for pro, so actually quite well protected.

You are right, some pitch grades must vary wildly even over the course of a few hours.
Post edited at 23:21
 Robert Durran 02 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> I know exactly the pitch!

Is that the pitch between the waterfall pitch and the ice bulge? If so I remember it as being about the best and one of the better protected pitches on the route (no snow mushroom for us). Absorbing technical mixed on the left and then a few aid moves to the foot of the ice bulge.

I wonder if anyone else has found the Traverse of the Gods as we did with only powder on rock - in most photos it seems to look like an exposed romp rather than the frightening VI,4 we had!
 Bob 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

It might be picture #13 here http://bobwightman.co.uk/climb/slideshow.php?s=eiger , the shots from there to #17 are on The Ramp. I remember three hard pitches: one low down, perhaps the entry pitch; getting to the ice bulge and the ice bulge itself.

Another hard pitch was that leaving the second ice field but we may have been on the wrong rib - I think the description says something like "climb the second to last rib before the Flatiron". The second ice field was hard ice, some people get a sort of moat at the top and can walk along it, we had to pitch it.

Traverse of the Gods: Sorry Robert, we had it banked out with decent snow which was fortunate as it let me climb over (literally) the aforementioned Americans so we didn't get stuck behind them.
 Goucho 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

On my first attempt, I remember a section above and right of the Shattered Pillar, easy scrambling, but all the ledges were covered in debris like ball bearings, when there was a whistling sound and a few stones fell down from above. It was like Vincent Price cackling "Hello, I've been expecting you ha ha ha".

We got a bit confused for a while trying to locate the Difficult Crack, and then there was a short pitch - about 30' just below it, which was pouring with water and deceptively awkward for what was no more than a severe.

I found the Difficult Crack pretty much bone dry, though awkward and a bit spooky, with all the ancient bleached tat, and then you reach the ground above, and you're on the route proper and you get your first real view of the size of the Rote Fluh, and the sheer scale and complexity of the face, and it's sort of 'gulp'!

The Hinterstoiser was bare rock, and the Ice Hose wasn't much better - little gear and very sketchy. The Second Icefield was like a frozen coal slag heap and really badly pitted from stonefall.

On my second attempt - both were around late July - that little 30' pitch was covered in powder snow over verglass, the Diificult Crack had ice in the back and the Hinterstoiser and Ice Hose had a solid covering of pretty good ice and the Second Icefield was well banked up.

I don't think conditions are ever the same for any given ascent even in the same month - or week for that matter!
 Rob Tresidder 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Well, in reply to all really!

I'm busy polishing my lecture http://oread.co.uk/images/pdf/05%20Tresidder%20lecture%20poster.pdf
for this evening so promise more on Thursday, but I climbed this in 1983 and will be showing a couple of Eiger shots in my "History of Ice Climbing in 100 Objects".

What sort of E grade should you be climbing? Remember Bonington said of the rock climbing in 1963: "Nothing harder than VS." (In boots, with a big sack, in a storm...)

Rob
 GridNorth 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

Back in the day I always worked on the basis that if I could climb VS in boots I could get up any alpine climb and it seemed to work. Having said that its nice to have a couple of grades in hand.
 Goucho 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Rob Tresidder:

> What sort of E grade should you be climbing? Remember Bonington said of the rock climbing in 1963: "Nothing harder than VS." (In boots, with a big sack, in a storm...)

I'm not so sure?

I reckon there's a couple of HVS pitches - Difficult Crack, and maybe third? pitch of The Ramp, and a few other shorter sections that were maybe above VS too. Can't vouch for anything beyond the Brittle Ledges though

Take into account the invariably poor conditions, and I certainly wouldn't consider being able to climb VS in big boots and a sack - even in a storm - to be enough.

But then again, my mind had everything at E10 and VIII+to begin with!

Gouch.

1
In reply to Goucho: In winter conditions it doesn't really make a lot of sense to try and grade it with "summer with big boots" grades. Nowadays they're all mostly ~ V or VI and are climbed like a mixed climb.

 Robert Durran 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> I reckon there's a couple of HVS pitches - Difficult Crack, and maybe third? pitch of The Ramp, and a few other shorter sections that were maybe above VS too. Can't vouch for anything beyond the Brittle Ledges though

I think the concensus is that under the good mixed conditions in which it usually tackled these days, then the hardest pitches are about VI, 6. That would seem about right for The Ramp to me. Obviously, though, it can vary immensely. For us, the most testing pitches were probably VI, 4 though numbers are probably a bit meaningless for that sort of thing.
 Goucho 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Fultonius:
> In winter conditions it doesn't really make a lot of sense to try and grade it with "summer with big boots" grades. Nowadays they're all mostly ~ V or VI and are climbed like a mixed climb.

When I first started to seriously begin thinking about getting on it, around 79'/80', the majority of ascents were still made in summer, with winter ascents considered the preserve of either hard men, or masochists with one coupon short of a toaster!

Now thirty odd years later, it seems to have completely flipped the other way round.

But back in those days of summer ascents, you wanted a good steer on the grades for rock, ice and mixed.
Post edited at 15:57
 Simon4 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> ledges were covered in debris like ball bearings, when there was a whistling sound and a few stones fell down from above. It was like Vincent Price cackling "Hello, I've been expecting you ha ha ha".

> a short pitch - about 30' just below it, which was pouring with water and deceptively awkward

> the Difficult Crack pretty much bone dry, though awkward and a bit spooky, with all the ancient bleached tat

> you get your first real view of the size of the Rote Fluh, and the sheer scale and complexity of the face, and it's sort of 'gulp'!

> The Hinterstoiser was bare rock, and the Ice Hose wasn't much better - little gear and very sketchy. The Second Icefield was like a frozen coal slag heap and really badly pitted from stonefall.

> that little 30' pitch was covered in powder snow over verglass, the Diificult Crack had ice in the back !

Don't ever, ever become a salesman will you - I don't think you have the temperament for it!

Not wishing to be rude, and I certainly admire you fellows who have climbed it, but er.... WHY ON EARTH DOES ANYONE WANT TO????

I have only looked at it from Kleine Scheindig or further below, it is just pulsating with menace, also not remotely attractive as a piece of mountain architecture. Still well done fellows.

P.S. You are as mad as hatters!

 pneame 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Simon4:

> I have only looked at it from Kleine Scheindig or further below, it is just pulsating with menace, also not remotely attractive as a piece of mountain architecture. Still well done fellows.

Hence "The Ogre"
flatiron 03 Feb 2015
In reply to rogerwebb:

> I know exactly what you mean, the last place I could see with both eyes was just below the brittle ledges.

What the hell does that mean??? Sounds not good to me at all...
 Simon4 03 Feb 2015
In reply to pneame:
> Hence "The Ogre"

What a pretty name, what does it signify?

Almost as good as the "Col des Avalanches" in the Ecrins for being evocative.
Post edited at 17:30
 rogerwebb 03 Feb 2015
In reply to flatiron:

Took a direct hit in the right eyeball, unpleasant and permanent.
 munro 03 Feb 2015
In reply to all:

As others have said, best thread on here in a very long time.

Massive thank you to all who have shared. Makes for a brilliant read.
 Rick Graham 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Is that the pitch between the waterfall pitch and the ice bulge? If so I remember it as being about the best and one of the better protected pitches on the route (no snow mushroom for us). Absorbing technical mixed on the left and then a few aid moves to the foot of the ice bulge.


Yes, V- in the White Spider description, only the Brittle and Quartz Crack get V from Harrer.
Edited out of the 2003 AC guide to " climb up for 25m " FFS

> I wonder if anyone else has found the Traverse of the Gods as we did with only powder on rock - in most photos it seems to look like an exposed romp rather than the frightening VI,4 we had!

60 degree scree for us, it is hard to believe it banks out. It was further between "belays" than our 50m rope. Fortuitously some old rope was lying on the stance and I extended the rope for a while so we did not have to move together with no belays or worthwhile runners.
The scariest section of the whole route for us.
Close seconds were the bullet hard and dinner plating ice pitch at the top of the ramp, and when I led through on the 3rd Ice Field. We rushed to get across because the sun hit, I forget to take any rack at the change over arriving at the foot of the ramp, safe from rockfall, with nothing to belay on or with. An ice axe torque had to suffice. Andy came across two seconds before a few wardrobes crashed across the pitch. If we had stopped to swap gear it could have gone tits up.
 Goucho 03 Feb 2015
In reply to rogerwebb:

> Took a direct hit in the right eyeball, unpleasant and permanent.

Shit Roger, that is awful.
flatiron 03 Feb 2015
In reply to rogerwebb:

>>Took a direct hit in the right eyeball, unpleasant and permanent.

Good Lord, sorry to hear about that! Did you get airliftet with such a serious injury?
 rogerwebb 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

But not as prolonged as your desperate experience.

With the help of my friends I was able to make it to the Traverse of the Gods where I woosed out and Ian very cleverly used his camera flash for a distress signal. I was airlifted the following morning.

Humbling

 rogerwebb 03 Feb 2015
In reply to flatiron:

> >>Took a direct hit in the right eyeball, unpleasant and permanent.

> Good Lord, sorry to hear about that! Did you get airliftet with such a serious injury?

Thanks, and yes, I fear I am not as hard as the Vorgs of this world.
 Goucho 03 Feb 2015
In reply to rogerwebb:

> But not as prolonged as your desperate experience.

> With the help of my friends I was able to make it to the Traverse of the Gods where I woosed out and Ian very cleverly used his camera flash for a distress signal. I was airlifted the following morning.

> Humbling

Getting airlifted from there must have been an experience?

 Rick Graham 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:
It would be OK.

Edit: borderline of acceptable joke deleted

Sorry
Post edited at 20:00
In reply to thread:

I don't normally frequent this forum, because, having read the likes of 'The Beckoning Silence', and leaving them stained with tears, I know with utter certainty that I don't have any inclination or the nerve required for this sort of climb. But I'm very glad to have come across it, and to read the honest accounts of terror and triumph.

You lot must walk like John Wayne. Hats off you you all. I hope you manage to cope with your demons.
 rogerwebb 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Yes it was quite fantastic. They came and looked at us in the evening in the morning a man called Ulrich was lowered on a cable unclipped himself and clipped me,. unfortunately I couldn't see a lot at the time but the massive uplift was quite a rush.

An oddly unsettling experience the rapid change from high stress to becoming a package, but if you have to go to hospital I do recommend Switzerland. I suspect you would too?
 Goucho 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> It would be OK.

> Edit: borderline of acceptable joke deleted

> Sorry

I didn't see it Rick, but don't worry about jokes at my expense...no one else ever has
 Goucho 03 Feb 2015
In reply to rogerwebb:

> Yes it was quite fantastic. They came and looked at us in the evening in the morning a man called Ulrich was lowered on a cable unclipped himself and clipped me,. unfortunately I couldn't see a lot at the time but the massive uplift was quite a rush.

> An oddly unsettling experience the rapid change from high stress to becoming a package, but if you have to go to hospital I do recommend Switzerland. I suspect you would too?

Absolutely Roger.

Although I didn't get the kind of hero welcome I thought I would lol. More like a Swiss version of Captain Mainwaring saying 'dummer Junge'.
 rogerwebb 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

yes.......

 Mike C 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

This thread has been a fascinating read, thank you all for your contributions. Rick, we met years ago, through Andy H, maybe in Exeter, good to see you sharing your memories. Whilst this face was sensibly beyond my expectations, I knew a lad, Chamonix 1980?, who went off to do the 1938 route & got up it but sadly fell to his death on the descent after he & his partner had paired up with another couple of guys. Can anyone remind me his name please? IIRC his story is mentioned in a Joe Simpson book. Thanks.
 Rick Graham 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Mike C:

I think it was Neil Gibbons? RIP

Met him a few times. I think he was climbing with Terry King.
 Rick Graham 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> I didn't see it Rick, but don't worry about jokes at my expense...no one else ever has

It was at Roger's expense and marginal acceptability, sorry to disappoint
 Mike C 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

Cheers Rick, name doesn't ring a bell. He'd tried to sell me a very worn pair of crampons after I'd had a load of gear nicked from my tent (wild camp below the Bossons). Indeed, RIP, it was a bad year for hearing about friends (& acquaintances) not returning. Tour Ronde especially. M.
 rogerwebb 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> It was at Roger's expense and marginal acceptability, sorry to disappoint

oh come on let's see it! nothing like 80s bad taste jokes
 Robert Durran 03 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:
>
> 60 degree scree for us, it is hard to believe it banks out.

That would explain why it (The Traverse of the Gods) felt somewhat delicate under powder with such constant bombardment by spindrift avalanches that I could never actually see what I was standing on. Belays rubbish too, protection virtually non-exitent and at one point I tensioned off an in situ peg of dubious quality. I felt that every step I took was effectively irreversible.
 Rick Graham 03 Feb 2015
In reply to rogerwebb:


> With the help of my friends I was able to make it to the Traverse of the Gods where I woosed out and Ian very cleverly used his camera flash for a distress signal. I was airlifted the following morning.

> Humbling

Getting airlifted from there must have been an experience?

It would be OK.

I couldn't see a thing.

Sorry. Off to bed now. Night
In reply to rogerwebb:

I remember you being lifted off Roger. Mark and I had carried on. Ian was so good. He had some mountain rescue experience I think. He looked after you really well, more than I could have done. We all decided it was for the best for Ian to stay with you and Mark and I to carry on. Ian, lent me his gloves, pink and garish.
We spent the third night at the end of the traverse of the gods, tied to some pitons. We had spindrift avalanches but also a nice sunset. We saw the helicopter come in, in the evening, but they backed off because of the stonewall we thought. We spent the night standing up, with our crampons on, our sleeping bags upside down over our heads. By two in the morning, we had continual cramps in our legs and we thought it best to start climbing again. We were in the exit cracks when we heard the helicopter come for you both. Apparently, Ian's flashing camera that night meant the police got sixty phone calls. It is such a theatre, that face.
The exit cracks were hard. I don't think I could have done the Heckmair on amphetamines pitch at the end. Mark did some outrageous, dance like thing on verglas, involving boots and crampons to get up it. But he was maybe the best climber in Scotland then. It was still his first alpine route though.
I remember hallucinating on the way down. All the cairns at the bottom of the west face became children in the lotus position. I knew they were not but they kept looking that way. The scariest part of the whole adventure, strangely was at Kleine Scheidegg. We had missed the last train. We slept on the platform. I was on the floor Mark decided to sleep on a bench above. I told him it was best not too but was too tired to elaborate. In the middle of the night, Mark let out a long, howling scream as he fell from the bench. He still thought he was on the face.

Years later, I asked Smiler Cuthbertson if he would do the North Face of the Eiger again. He thought about for a while and said, ' No, Neil, I am not angry enough any more'. Same applies to me.

Best wishes Roger.


 Goucho 04 Feb 2015
In reply to NeilBoyd:

We spent the night standing up, with our crampons on, our sleeping bags upside down over our heads. By two in the morning, we had continual cramps in our legs and we thought it best to start climbing again.

PMSL

It's amazing how you end up behaving on that face? What would be madness and unthinkable on any other route, becomes perfectly normal and rational on the Eiger





 rogerwebb 04 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Getting airlifted from there must have been an experience?

> It would be OK.

> I couldn't see a thing.

That is well within the bounds of good taste! (also quite accurate)

 rogerwebb 04 Feb 2015
In reply to NeilBoyd:

I remember those gloves!

I didn't know the story of the bench, it's really good. Reminds me when I woke up driving home convinced I was the driver and couldn't find the steering wheel, truly terrifying (I was in the passenger seat but couldn't see the driver (right eye))

It might have been the stonefall that sent them away, Ian's commentary was definitely of the positive and optimistic kind.

Mark was and is outrageously good in a crisis.

Glad you were all there.
 Robert Durran 04 Feb 2015
In reply to rogerwebb:
> I didn't know the story of the bench, it's really good.

It's brilliant!

> Reminds me when I woke up driving home convinced I was the driver and couldn't find the steering wheel, truly terrifying (I was in the passenger seat but couldn't see the driver (right eye))

On the way home we got involved in a multiple shunt in driving rain on the autoroute in northern France. There were lots of flashing lights and gendarmes saying stuff about "danger de mort". There probably was. I remember barely caring; our epic had warped our perspective of stuff. We tied the bent bonnet down with a prussic loop and continued home.
Post edited at 11:53
Douglas Griffin 04 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

It's a pity Norrie Muir's not on the forum any more.

Norrie tried to solo the face at least once. It's about 10 years since our conversation and so I can't recall just how high he got.
 Mick Ward 04 Feb 2015
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

Death Bivouac, I think. If I recall his post correctly, he soloed up, thought the weather was crapping out and climbed back down again. Then he reckoned it was going to be OK after all (it was). What to do? Go back up knackered or walk away. He (sensibly, I would have thought) chose the latter. But surely the most cruel of ironies, given his prowess on ice and at soloing...

Mick

P.S. Norrie was great on here. Wish he'd come back.
Douglas Griffin 04 Feb 2015
In reply to Mick Ward:

Thanks, Mick.
 streapadair 04 Feb 2015
In reply to Mick Ward:

> Death Bivouac, I think. If I recall his post correctly, he soloed up, thought the weather was crapping out and climbed back down again. Then he reckoned it was going to be OK after all (it was). What to do? Go back up knackered or walk away. He (sensibly, I would have thought) chose the latter. But surely the most cruel of ironies, given his prowess on ice and at soloing...

"The reason I never read the White Spider, was I did not want to get gripped on the route. However, having heard stories about the route, I still lost my bottle at the "Death Bivouac" and so had a hairy retreat. I should have kept going as the conditions were ideal, dry rock and no stone falls. I had planned to do it in one push to the top and get a sleep there, I was travelling light, no stove, no sleeping bag. 6 nuts and 120' of rope if it got hard." (2004)

"I don't know the experience of most of the other posters on this thread, but I've had experience of soloing on the 1938 Route. Because I thought "stuff this, I'm off" at the Death Bivouac, I'm still alive 35 years later and I've never been jealous or envious of Eric Jones who later did the first British solo ascent. " (2006)

> P.S. Norrie was great on here. Wish he'd come back.

Oh he was indeed, and so do I.

 Mick Ward 04 Feb 2015
In reply to streapadair:

Woops, looks like my memory's dodgy. But we're agreed on the most important thing - Norrie was great!

Mick
 wilkie14c 04 Feb 2015
In reply to Mick Ward:

Jesus, some right knarly bastards on this thread. And I thought UKC had gone a bit soft recently.
If anyone can face their demons and has an hour to kill:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00tlwj3/the-eiger-wall-of-death
 Goucho 04 Feb 2015
In reply to streapadair:

> "The reason I never read the White Spider, was I did not want to get gripped on the route. However, having heard stories about the route, I still lost my bottle at the "Death Bivouac" and so had a hairy retreat. I should have kept going as the conditions were ideal, dry rock and no stone falls. I had planned to do it in one push to the top and get a sleep there, I was travelling light, no stove, no sleeping bag. 6 nuts and 120' of rope if it got hard." (2004)

You're a braver, better man than me. I can think of nothing more intimidating than setting out on that face alone! Brrrr!
 streapadair 04 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Er, you do realise I was quoting Norrie Muir?

Me better and braver than you, I don't think so!
 Goucho 05 Feb 2015
In reply to streapadair:

> Er, you do realise I was quoting Norrie Muir?

I didn't actally



OP Superchop75 05 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

I'm humbled.

The thread has been unbelievable!

My (5yr) plan is gathering pace.

I hope I can call back on advice gained from you guys during my preparations!!!
 Goucho 05 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

> The thread has been unbelievable!

It has, thanks for starting it.

> My (5yr) plan is gathering pace.

> I hope I can call back on advice gained from you guys during my preparations!!!

If you want any advice on how to retreat from the Brittle Ledges like a whimpering child, losing toes in the process, then feel free

On the other hand, if you want advice on how to actually get up it, I think the likes of Rick, Bob, Rob, ES and others would be a far better port of call.

Gouch



 Robert Durran 05 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> On the other hand, if you want advice on how to actually get up it, I think the likes of Rick, Bob, Rob, ES and others would be a far better port of call.

Actually I think he would be best seeking the advice of those who have climbed it relatively recently in the good winter or quasi-winter stonefall-free conditions most people sensibly wait for, guided by online conditions and weather reports.

In reply to Robert Durran: Winter conditions are definitely advisable! I find it interesting that back in the day winter ascents were reserved for the semi-lunatics! Nowadays it's the much safer option.

Modern forecasts are better, but I'm amazed how often the 3 day forecast turns out to be quite far from what actually happens and you can't always wait for that perfect blocking high. Also, conditions reports are all well and good, but it's not the northern corries - if no-one has been up, there's no info. We checked online and then phoned the guides office in Grindelwald only to be told "no one else has been up yet this year". So we went and had a look...
 Robert Durran 05 Feb 2015
In reply to Fultonius:
> We checked online and then phoned the guides office in Grindelwald only to be told "no one else has been up yet this year". So we went and had a look......

Obviously someone has to be the brave guinea pig, but I get the impression that once someone has got up it and reported good conditions, aspirants will jump in a car or a plane and rush to take advantage.
Post edited at 23:03
In reply to Robert Durran:

I suppose the floodgates do open a bit, but conditions are always changing. Friends of mine went to do it a week later and the team ahead of them were aiding up the ice hose!
 rogerwebb 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

>> My (5yr) plan is gathering pace.

>


In this case the new ways are better than the old.

It's only a hill but a very entertaining hill.
Have fun.
 Bob 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

I think this thread has shown:

a) Conditions vary wildly even within a short time frame.
b) Experiences vary wildly from near fatal epic to "what is all the fuss about"
c) Improved equipment, even within the last couple of decades, has meant that summer ascents have fallen out of favour.
d) Don't rely on 30 year old accounts - mine!
 Goucho 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Bob:
> d) Don't rely on 30 year old accounts - mine!

I wonder Bob, whether it's more than just improvements in weather/conditions information and the trend towards winter ascents?

Could it also be that today, climbers are far less influenced by the psychology of the routes history, and have a more clinical and less emotional approach to it?

Speaking personally from 30 odd years back, I know that the macabre history and folklore of the face, certainly weighed heavily on my shoulders.
Post edited at 11:57
 Es Tresidder 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Also, I would have thought, that a summer ascent nowadays is often an even more dangerous and difficult proposition than it would have been 'back in the day' due to less ice on the face and warmer summers. That and winter's aren't usually as savage. I remember bivying at death bivi and thinking "This is a lot more comfortable and fun than the KIMM (mountain marathon, now OMM, which is what I would have been doing had I stuck to my original game plan for that weekend)". Always below freezing, I suspect never below -10, pretty ideal really! Compare that to Tasker's write up of the first british winter ascent (I think), very different beasts. I know mine (beginning of November) wasn't officially winter, but I think the same holds generally for folk I know who've done it in "official" winter.
 Bob 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

I had read The White Spider many times prior to going on the face, to the point where I almost new the route description off by heart!

I think I was the first Lakes based climber to do the 38 Route or even the N Face (well according to Ed Cleasby (name dropping!) I was) and there was a definite "If Bob can do it ..." feeling after that So it does help if you know people who've done it as part of the psychological wall has been removed and of course this snowballs as more and more of each generation and therefore people you are likely to know do it.

I knew someone who'd done the Lauper route on the NE Face which must get very few ascents these days.

Es Tresidder: The Burgess twins took five days (yes that's five days) to do the first British winter ascent of the Swiss Route on Les Courtes some time in the early 1970s. In 1987 I soloed it in winter in 5 hours.
 rif 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Bob:
> I knew someone who'd done the Lauper route on the NE Face which must get very few ascents these days.

Did it ever? It was excellent when I did it in snowy conditions some time in the 70s, but another British pair around the same time found it horrible when 'dry' (i.e. wet and loose). Probably a good autumn/winter climb now?

 GraMc 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Fultonius:

F@cking hell ally, I never knew it was that close!! you seemed relatively nonchalant about it at the time haha! I think I was probably most scared just below the difficult crack, but not because of the sketchy soloing I think it was more due to the oppressive ambiance of the face
 GraMc 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Es Tresidder:

I'd agree with that, we did it in late February. The temps were never too bad ( other than being pretty cold on our second night) the main issue for us was the heinous trail breaking up the lower portion of the face
 Rick Graham 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Ginger McGrath:

> I'd agree with that, we did it in late February. The temps were never too bad ( other than being pretty cold on our second night) the main issue for us was the heinous trail breaking up the lower portion of the face

I know what you mean, Bob and I once took 8 hours from Alpigen to the start of the Harlin.

Are winter temperatures actually milder nowadays or is just the gear getting better?

Sleeping bags and Duvet jackets have been very good since at least the 1960's if only slightly heavier.
 GraMc 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:
The last few certainly have been by most accounts. In the middle of December at about 2am last year I was on the courtes north face and was climbing in just a thin base layer and hardshell, and I'm not fit enough to move particularly fast! The alpine ice apparently forms much better through the winter now aswell, because the temps are a bit warmer/ more variable than they used to be.

Did you get the harlin done?!
Post edited at 18:27
 TonyM 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Bob:
> The Burgess twins took five days (yes that's five days) to do the first British winter ascent of the Swiss Route on Les Courtes some time in the early 1970s. In 1987 I soloed it in winter in 5 hours.

I was idly leafing through an old edition (1974?) of Mountain the other week at a climbing wall and read about this ascent in the Notes section. Startling.
 Rick Graham 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Ginger McGrath:


> Did you get the harlin done?!

No. Did not get very far at all.

Not heard of any Brits (apart from FA team and Alex Mac) who have got past First Band.
 Goucho 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> No. Did not get very far at all.

> Not heard of any Brits (apart from FA team and Alex Mac) who have got past First Band.

I'm impressed you even considered it Rick!!!!!!!
 Rick Graham 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> I'm impressed you even considered it Rick!!!!!!!

I enjoyed the 38 route not having your experience.

Got a framed photo of me on the Ramp from Andy Jones afterwards with the caption

"happy as a pig in shit " interestingly in almost the same place as Ian Clough smiling in a CB photo.

Possibly the first published photo of someone smiling on the route?
 Goucho 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> No. Did not get very far at all.

> Not heard of any Brits (apart from FA team and Alex Mac) who have got past First Band.

Remember that excellent article 'Mamas Boys' that McKintrye wrote about that ascent with Tobin Sorrenson - can't remember if they got up though?
 Goucho 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Possibly the first published photo of someone smiling on the route?

I'd keep that in a safe place Rick, without it, no one will believe you

 Bob 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Yes, they did it. Either second or third ascent, there might have been a Japanese siege on it before them. It was the first lightweight ascent though.

My memory of the trip Rick mentions was wading up to the face through chest deep powder then finding that the conditions on the face weren't any different! There was a Czech team on the 38 route, we spoke to one afterwards - he'd taken a 30 metre fall at some point on the lower section and decided to call it a day.
 Goucho 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Bob:

> Yes, they did it. Either second or third ascent, there might have been a Japanese siege on it before them. It was the first lightweight ascent though.

You've got to hand it to the Japanese, they certainly have tremendous determination to 'grind' their way up something - even if takes weeks

> My memory of the trip Rick mentions was wading up to the face through chest deep powder then finding that the conditions on the face weren't any different! There was a Czech team on the 38 route, we spoke to one afterwards - he'd taken a 30 metre fall at some point on the lower section and decided to call it a day.

A psychiatrist would have a field day with the masochism of Eiger climbers - 'tell me about your childhood, and when you were beaten for the first time?"

 Rick Graham 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> I'd keep that in a safe place Rick, without it, no one will believe you

Possibly the first published photo of someone smiling on the route?
I meant of course the Bonington photo of Ian Clough.

I will put mine on when my scanner and PC start talking again.

Sorenson and McIntyre did the 4th ascent, some Czechs did it in Summer 76! Raised a few eyebrows in Mountain Mag.
 Goucho 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> I will put mine on when my scanner and PC start talking again.

I'll be checking for signs of Photoshop



 Rick Graham 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:


> A psychiatrist would have a field day with the masochism of Eiger climbers - 'tell me about your childhood, and when you were beaten for the first time?"

Only been " beaten up" once. Hung around too long after watching a fight between the hard cases at school.
They decided it was not fair I was the only one not bloodied and bruised, so only for fun!

Was that important?
 Rick Graham 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:


> A psychiatrist would have a field day with the masochism of Eiger climbers - 'tell me about your childhood, and when you were beaten for the first time?"

Only got caned once.

" I am surprised at you, Graham " said the headmaster, Graham just thought he was unlucky to get caught for the only time.
 Goucho 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Only been " beaten up" once. Hung around too long after watching a fight between the hard cases at school.

> They decided it was not fair I was the only one not bloodied and bruised, so only for fun!

> Was that important?

Not enough to explain your desire to keep going back to the Eiger.

Now if you'd been beaten up by a gang of Hells Angels in the 'Sally' in Ambleside over a game of pool, that might provide more of a clue?
 Goucho 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Only got caned once.

Jesus, we used to celebrate the days we 'didn't' get caned at my school. For some reason, there was a rule that you couldn't be caned more than 7 times in any one session, so before you got whacked, you had to choose which hand you wanted the 4 strokes on!
 Rick Graham 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:


> Now if you'd been beaten up by a gang of Hells Angels in the 'Sally' in Ambleside over a game of pool, that might provide more of a clue?

Actually I did once start a bar brawl there but the Hells Angles did not join in
 Goucho 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:
> Actually I did once start a bar brawl there but the Hells Angles did not join in

I've been involved in two brawls in there, so if that was you around June 76', we've got unfinished business
Post edited at 20:29
 Rick Graham 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Anytime
 Goucho 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:
> Anytime

I'll see you at the Gallery Window next Tuesday, around 10.30 am. Bring a sleeping bag just in case
Post edited at 20:34
 Mick Ward 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Goucho, not for the first (and doubtless not for the last) time, I'm left wondering who the hell you are. Because our paths seem to have crossed, over the years - though not in the snowy, scary mountains (brr... too cold and scary for lil ole' me).

My mate Deke and I were fixtures in Ambleside from just past Easter '76 for the next two months or so... and then sporadically into the summer. Dossing in John Whittock's room in 'Charlottes' Harlots'. (The record was 24 folk dossing in John's tiny room one night!) Drinking in the Sally every night we had some brass. We must have met you...

I should emphasise that Deke and I were much too nice to be engaged in fisticuffs (well he was). And with the likes of Iain Edwards and Graeme 'the brain' Summers only too eager to take on the Ambleside Hell's Angels single-handed, it's not as though Yorkshire couldn't field an A Team.

Happy days!

Mick

 Ian Parsons 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham, and everyone else who's (who've?) actually been there.

Hi Rick

I've just come across this picture:

http://www.adventure-journal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/harlin_eiger200...

Having spent the greater part of a lifetime trying to prise topographical details of the various crucial bits of the route from all the accounts out there - and relatively few definitive photograhs - I think this is the most useful one I've found for sorting out the layout of the Exit Cracks. There are quite a few good shots of the climbing on the Quartz Crack but they tend to be too close in and foreshortened - for obvious practical reasons - to show exactly where the pitch finishes and what happens next; up until now I had thought that the snow-filled gully leading up to the left of the upper figure and the slanting crack above it were all the same feature, with no interruption.

I assume that the upper figure is at the belay at the top of the Quartz Crack - ie at the position from which photos of people emerging from it were taken; the middle figure is obviously halfway up it. The Corti Bivouac is presumably a bit to the left, on whatever ledge is atop the rounded buttress in the centre of the shot, whereafter the diagonal abseil leads down left to a belay at the base of the righthand of the two chimneys directly above the righthand ice streak; I think that's where Es's http://www.es-on-ice.co.uk/photo/info/73?gallery=2 is taken from. I don't think that's where Heckmair fell off and skewered Vörg's hand; the account suggests that it was a pitch higher. Kasparek and Harrer were waiting at the previous belay when a blood-laden snowslide arrived on top of them; if the incident had happened at this point, Kasparek and Harrer would presumably have been up to the right at the Corti Bivouac, and would have seen the whole episode.

Most accounts don't actually mention a diagonal abseil; is it really more a case of climbing down left with a bit of tension?

All this comes with the very large and humble disclaimer that I'm strictly in armchair mode here, never having set foot on the thing!



 Bob 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Ian Parsons:
Very similar, though better quality than shot #19 in my set - http://bobwightman.co.uk/climb/slideshow.php?s=eiger (I really must rescan those shots properly to do them justice - not photographically but for the effort in getting them), also not dissimilar in snow cover but of course it's hard to tell the quality of the snow/ice from a photo. I think both are taken from the top of the first pitch leading out of The Spider. There's a shot in Es's slides of the Quartz Crack though it's not capitioned as such - http://www.es-on-ice.co.uk/photo/info/70?gallery=2 and #20 in my set is of the Quartz Crack taken from the same position as the upper figure.

Left of and slightly up of the upper figure you can just make out the fixed rope(s) that are evident in Es's shot at the base of that long finger of rock leading to the skyline so the line taken by the Exit Cracks is the leftmost line that you can see. I've no idea where the Corti bivouac is, we weren't looking for bivvy spots at that time. Like many alpine routes and faces there's a lot of fixed kit around and we probably downclimbed with one of the fixed ropes as a handrail, certainly there was no abseil involved. We did the route shortly after Christophe Profit did his enchainement of the big three north faces and there was quite a bit of fresh fixed rope from that.

What isn't obvious from these shots is the undercut nature of the lower part directly beneath the Exit Cracks which is why the route heads up right to the Quartz Crack then back left. In my shot you can see an icicle hanging down away from the rock.

Having gone back to my set, I think I need to update some of the captions

edit:

I had one of those nagging thoughts and did a bit of looking up. I can't be certain but I think the three ex-smoker Americans we passed (well climbed over) at the start of The Traverse of the Gods were Eric Perlman, Allen Bradley and Mark Twight. The timing's right and there can't have been many North Face sponsored teams of Americans

http://www.si.com/vault/1986/02/10/666833/europes-classic-north-faces-gave-...

Checking Mark Twight's personal web page there's a shot of the Exit Cracks - http://www.marktwight.com/pictures.php with the climber dressed how I remember the three.
Post edited at 08:10
 Es Tresidder 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Bob:

What Bob said, mostly. The traverse left after the Quartz crack was also unmemorable for us, I think we just clipped the old rope for pro and climbed it, I don't remember it being hard.

The Corti bivi (a bum sized ledge) is at the bottom, and just left of, the exit chimney we took, which I think is, as Ian says, the right hand chimney directly above the right ice streak.

Indeed the face is undercut directly beneath the exit chimneys. We went wrong coming out of the spider and I set off up a very steep crack which I assumed was the quartz crack (it was a crack, and there was a bit of quartz-like rock in it!). Very, very hard; overhanging and loose. Soon decided that it couldn't be that way as it was far looser than anything we'd encountered so far (a humbling insight into how loose the route might have been for the early attempts/ascents), and no crampon scratches. We had to abseil back down and then take the correct exit from the Spider. We were overtaken by an Austrian pair while we faffed, who we'd shared death bivi with. They made it to a relatively comfortable summit-ridge bivi, whereas we had an uncomfortable night at the Corti. I remember the Quartz crack being really good! One of my favourite pitches I think.
 Rick Graham 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Ian Parsons:
Hi Ian

I remember that view, thinking HTF do we get out of here? ( and also admiring the then unclimbed headwall now taken by the Young Spider )

We followed the AC description so after the Quartz crack we moved left and up to the Corti bivi. There was a curious triangle of 20mm holes ( possibly set up for a rescue or filming ) at the Corti bivi ledge. I welded a 7/8 inch angle into one, it felt really secure. (American photo somewhere of the belay set up ) . We then did a short descent/ab down left to the first Exit crack. The AC guide was quite specific and I am sure we found the easiest way. ES appears to have climbed right of the Corti so may have caused himself a bit of bother. This assumption may be wrong if there is more than one Corti bivi possible ledge, but it was pretty dry so no hidden features.

Best to look at both AC Oberland guides published since 1990, I sent in a very carefully updated description which was published verbatum apart from the introduction.
Post edited at 17:07
 Rick Graham 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Es Tresidder:

>. I remember the Quartz crack being really good! One of my favourite pitches I think.

Did you get the Hex 7 at the top before you moved left?

Bomber.
 Robert Durran 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

I've got photos of Brendan swinging along the fixd rope past the Corti bivouac and from above at the belay we took below the exit chimneys and of me starting up the chimney horror pitch. I'll try to fix up a link to them (aeway for next week though). Es's photo doesn't look much like the one we took (though it might just be the perspective) so he may have been in the right hand one (I think we were in the left hand one - from what I remember, it would not really have been possible to go further left)
 Rick Graham 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

Just looked at WS AC 1968 AC 2003.

The earlier descriptions waffle a bit about intermediate stances and short gully sections.

I rationalised this to .... Corti bivi , 50 m in all from the foot of the Quartz crack.Go down left for 6m (fixed rope ) to reach the Exit cracks....... I then added ......This shallow wet or icy gully is the L most and easiest of several vertical fissures.

So it may be the most obvious gully on the left.
 Rick Graham 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Ian Parsons:

Hi again Ian.

Heck this is confusing.

I think the upper climber may be on the Corti bivi ledge. 50 m between the climbers may be correct if you allow for foreshortening. So the thin ribbon of ice left of the upper climber is the correct line and where Es climbed. The gullies further left are not visible from the Corti ( I think ) and certainly not encouraging to try to reach.

All seemed obvious to me when climbing it and it corresponds to all versions of the route description. I know I modified the later AC descriptions but heard no complaints about these specific pitches.

Where's Rolo when you need him for a bit of photo analysis?
 Ian Parsons 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Bob, Es and Rick.

Excellent, chaps! Thanks for the responses.

Yes, Bob; I'd been studying your shot for some time, trying to decide whether there was indeed some sort of traverse or ledge system leading left from the Quartz Crack or whether it was purely imaginary and the pitch continued much higher. You can probably see what I mean about the gully leading up to just left of the top figure and the crack above it appearing in your shot to be a single uninterrupted line, whereas in the one I posted there's obviously a gap and something else in between. I hadn't noticed the fixed ropes - or realised that that's what they are - but you're right; they correlate exactly with those in the bottom righthand corner of Es's photo (both shots taken in 2005). I originally thought that the chimney was the lefthand one, then convinced myself that various possibly matching features pointed to it being the righthand one; further scrutiny and the evidence of the rope (along with you guys who've actually been there!) appear to confirm the former.

Es - most reports that mention the Corti Bivouac suggest that it comes before the descent down left to the base of the chimney, rather than right below the chimney where you bivvied. This shot
http://www.highmountainguides.com/index.php/eng/Gallery/Alpine-Mountaineeri...
is presumably taken looking left from the belay atop the Quartz Crack, with the "Corti Bivi" being somewhere under the snow beyond his head. Although I don't seem to be able to post a link, I found a shot apparently taken from that position looking down left to a person at what I think is your bivvy location at the base of the chimney, captioned something like "Down from the Corti Ledge"; it's clearly the same view as that iconic black and white first ascent photo referred to as the start of the final chimney in Terray's book and something similar in an appropriate edition of The White Spider (my softback edition doesn't have it).
Diemberger describes taking a wrong exit from the Spider in poor visibility, with Wolfgang Stefan having an unsuccessful battle with an overhanging yellow crack; they then traversed right and got back on route. Does this sound like what you did?

Can anyone work out where the FA team bivvied hereabouts; was it on whatever stance is at the top of the Quartz Crack, at the Corti Ledge, or at the bottom of the Quartz Crack where Buhl and team bivvied?

Sorry to go on a bit!
 Goucho 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Hi again Ian.

> Heck this is confusing.

Reading the differing versions of exactly where you go in the exit cracks, I'm glad I didn't get that far. If it confuses you lot, god knows where I would have ended up!

 Rick Graham 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

You would have been OK in better weather, easier than Astronomy

Looking at the fixed ropes well left in the photo, I think they are well off the normal 38 route. Possibly an attempt to bypass the Exit cracks and gain the top of the Lauper / Messner rib?

The sort of easy way just hidden round the corner one dreams about when on a gnarly bivi.
 Es Tresidder 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Ian Parsons:

Hi Ian,

I'm not sure that where we bivied was the Corti, just assumed it was as it was the only decent ledge I remember seeing around that area. In the photo you link to, if he dug out the ledge he's about to mantel on to, left a bit, that's where we sat. Was flat but small when we were there (not banked out like in that picture). The exit chimney that we took was, I'm pretty sure, directly above the climbers head in that shot. To get there from the top of the Quartz crack you go down and left a bit, but it's not far.

Sounds like we might have been trying the same crack as Wolfgang Stefan, although I don't remember seeing a way to go right to get back on the right route, which is why we abseiled back down. Hard to say really. I remember there being two obvious exits from the spider, we took the left but should have taken the right.
 Rick Graham 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Es Tresidder:

> Hi Ian,

> I'm not sure that where we bivied was the Corti, just assumed it was as it was the only decent ledge I remember seeing around that area. In the photo you link to, if he dug out the ledge he's about to mantel on to, left a bit, that's where we sat. Was flat but small when we were there (not banked out like in that picture). The exit chimney that we took was, I'm pretty sure, directly above the climbers head in that shot.

I am sure that ledge is the Corti, so you probably bivied there.

So is your photo taken from the Corti and you climbed slightly right of it?

I get the feeling Rob and Bob went down left a bit and climbed the chimney with the thin ribbon of ice in it in the photo.

Anyway , probably better no more comments from me , may only add to the confusion.
 Goucho 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> You would have been OK in better weather, easier than Astronomy

If you're talking about route finding, that's not saying much!



 Rick Graham 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Don't start a thread about route finding, I have been on the wrong mountain before now.

On Astronomy got lost, did the FA of the direct start , couldn't find the original finish but the escape route off turned out to be the direct finish anyway. Happy days, good route, but not as good as Gemini the day after.
 Es Tresidder 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

Yes, photo taken from the Corti. From the Corti you take a step or two rightwards then start climbing. That's what we did anyway. We did faff around looking further left the evening before, which I guess is half the reason we were benighted, but decided where we went looked better. Looking at other folks photos of the exit chimneys it seems to be the same way most people go, although it may be possible to go further left.
 Bob 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Es Tresidder:

Slightly late in the evening post. Been out for my wife's birthday do but just before we went out I found my AC Bernese Alps East guidebook - the blue bound one, 1979 edition. I'll post my annotations tomorrow (when I'm sober) but this is the first note:

"29-31.8.85 with Dai Lampard in very bad conditions and between storms. BRILLIANT!!! Last route of 85 season"

I think I might have been rather pleased with it
 Tom F Harding 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

You can take a tour up the entire route with this site. Enjoy!

http://project360.mammut.ch/#route/eiger/heckmair-route/44/details
 Ian Parsons 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Es, Bob, Rob, Rick, etc!

Hi again, chaps. Apologies; I seem to have provoked a lot of head-scratching. As far as I'm concerned it's all fun and good stuff; except I didn't have to go through all the hard work, discomfort and danger to get to this point - like almost everybody else I just logged on. So "chapeau", gentlemen. I'm also very aware of the fact that I'm looking academically - essentially trying to match photographs and written accounts - at situations that you've experienced personally. So if my inner idiot shines through I can only apologise again!

Es; as far as I understand it you think you climbed the icy crack/chimney line immediately above and to the left of the upper of three figures in the photograph that I posted earlier. I have to say that, out of the three options in view - ie this one and the two chimneys down to the left, each apparently the upward continuation of the two lower ice streaks - this one appears to least match the detail in your shot looking up that first chimney. The fixed ropes that Bob pointed out, if indeed that is what they are, appear to run down leftwards from the top of the rounded buttress left of the upper figure to finish in a sort of horizontal "Y" at the base of the thin buttress immediately right of the furthest lefthand chimney (ie between the bases of those two lower chimneys above the ice streaks). That "Y" seems to match the white rope connected to the belays visible in the bottom righthand corner of your picture of you leading the pitch above your bivvy. A similar white rope is also visible in the picture to which (annoyingly) I can't link (but which can be found by googling "exit cracks eiger" and hunting around) which claims to show the descent down leftwards from the Corti Bivi - looks like about 25 feet, passing the base of an intermediate crack/chimney on the way - to a stance that is recognisable as one depicted in The White Spider etc. Are you certain of your recollection?

Here's Terrray's account (in translation, obviously) of the route immediately after the Quartz Crack:

"Another overhang loomed above us: would this diabolical couloir with its verglas and its overhangs never come to an end? This one looked really unclimbable, and we could not imagine how the Germans had dealt with it. Perhaps we could escape round the corner to the left into the next couloir? A few moves took me out on to a little shoulder which overlooked it, but it looked even worse than the last one. Suddenly I noticed a rope jammed in a crack, and at the same moment the solution became clear: the Germans had abseiled to a ledge below which led round to yet a third couloir. I grabbed the rope, taking no notice of its decayed state, and a moment later I stood at the base of a wide, deep chimney." I'm assuming that the "little shoulder" is the Corti Bivouac.

Bed beckons; more tomorrow, no doubt!
 Bob 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Bob:

So here we go. AC description in normal text, my annotations in italic, [extra notes in brackets]

Eiger North Wall Original Route
29-31.8.85 with Dai Lampard in very bad conditions and between storms. BRILLIANT!!! Last route of 85 season.

The whole face was covered in snow and thin ice which made for hard climbing but held the stones in place so there was very little stonefall. Climbed the whole route in crampons including any rock climbing that existed out of the verglass or ice.

Three other parties on route - 3 Americans, 2 British - John Sylvester and Simon Yates; and 2 Germans - a 60 year old and his 16 year old son. Last two parties did route in same time as us.


The rock is friable right up to the third icefield but better above that.
This statement is the wrong way round

Started climbing at about 0700-0730

A chimney then short steps lead in 3 pitches to an obvious triangular snowslope.
We took a line further right up to here - we were following tracks

Up an easy snowy rib to the Wet Cave Bivouac below a vertical wall. A fixed rope normally hangs down this.
Didn't climb the fixed rope but came in from left

Above is the Difficult Crack with an undercut base.
Climbed rope here - desperate! [The fixed rope was from Christophe Profite's enchainement.]

Move up several metres to pegs at the start of the Hinterstoisser Traverse.
The last rope length leading to the Hint Traverse was very hard.

Above, climb a chimney/crack (III+ 20m) and exit left to reach the Swallow's Nest (small poor biv. site).
No way! [arrow pointing to the grade of III+]
The sun hit us on the Hint' Traverse - we bivvied at Swallow's Nest for safety. Stopped (climbing) at 5pm. Swallow's Nest is a five star bivouac! An excellent site - sleeps 6!
[I think we must have been cosy - the six was ourselves, the Germans and JS & SY]

On your right is the Ice Hose.
The Ice Hose was complete but we climbed the wall (on the left) as it was easier

Climb the 2nd icefield direct in four rope lengths to its upper edge and follow this for ten rope lengths to the last rock finger jutting from above in to the slope.
Second Icefield goes on for ever. [sometimes there's a moat at the upper edge you can walk along]

We picked the wrong place here - desperate - Scottish V. Good lead by Dai.
[I think these days I'd give our line Scottish tech 7]

Go almost horizontally across the 3rd icefield ... to reach the foot of the Ramp.
We had the only stonefall on the route here.

Ascend the Ramp for five pitches to the foot of an icy chimney.,
The Ramp gave a couple of awkward pitches up to the icy chimney which Dai made me lead with the sack on - desperate!

Climb it for 10 metres, strenuous too true, squeeze through a narrowing the icy gully was very narrow
The Icy Chimney was good Scottish 5 mixed climbing - verglassed rock and smooth slabs to bridge.

Continue to a small hanging snow/icefield overlooking the Ramp below.
This small snowfield was very, very hard ice

Traverse right to the Brittle ledge, climb a crack on bad rock and continue for another pitch to the Traverse of the Gods. Good bivouac site.
Second bivouac here. Not very good - the bloody Yanks had the best spot!
Second day's climbing - started 7am finished 7pm. Then spent 1 1/2 hours excavating a bivvy ledge.

Follow TotG obviously to reach the Spider.
Overtook the Yanks here at start of AM. [Dai noticed that they were beginning to stir so we packed up and set off without breakfast or brew - overtook actually meant "climb over"]

Go up the middle of the Spider on its blunt crest.
The spider was easy and good ice

Above to left are two obvious gullies, the RH one marks the start of the exit pitches from the face.
(description of pitches leading to Quartz crack)
These pitches are all a bit vague

Climb this pitch (The Quartz Crack) then traverse left on steep smooth slabs to a terrace with a vertical shallow gully above.
All this was verglassed
The Quartz crack was another very hard mixed pitch


(description of pendulum/abseil) Reach a ledge below a narrow, wet and ice glazed gully. Climb this for three pitches (IV, III)
Now used to climbing in crampons but these were precarious
All this last section was brittle and precarious climbing
Left the Brits and Germans behind on The Ramp. Then left the Yanks behind in the Exit Cracks.
3rd day - started at 7am, summit at Noon
About 27hrs of climbing over 3 days in poor conditions
[I suspect others might say we had good, safe conditions but I think I was referring to the technical aspect of the climbing]

----------

So those were my thoughts at the time. I didn't write up the account for my web page until 20 years after the event but some things do stick with you





 Bob 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Tom F Harding:

The section leaving the spider begins at around this point http://project360.mammut.ch/#route/eiger/heckmair-route/292/map

The Quartz crack = http://project360.mammut.ch/#route/eiger/heckmair-route/302/map

In http://project360.mammut.ch/#route/eiger/heckmair-route/314/map I think the upper figure is at the Corti bivouac

http://project360.mammut.ch/#route/eiger/heckmair-route/316/map definitely shows the same chimney line as taken by Es
 Sheffield Sam 08 Feb 2015
Fantastic thread, best on UKC I can remember. Thanks for sharing your memories chaps, some great stories here.

Sam

 Goucho 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Hotel California, adapted for this thread:

HOTEL EIGERWAND

On a dark Alpine North Face, cold wind in my hair
The dark chill of anxiety, rising up through the air
Up ahead in the distance, I saw a menacing sight
My arms grew heavy and the ice too thin,
I had to stop for the night

There it stood near the Rhote Fluh, I heard the stones as they fell
And I was thinking to myself, This could be nasty, or this could be hell
Then I noticed a fixed rope, and it showed me the way
There were voices from the Swallows Nest, I thought I heard them say

Welcome to the North Face of the Eiger
Such a brooding place (such a nasty face)
Plenty of fools try the North Face of the Eiger
Any time of year, you can smell the fear

His mind is Eigerwand twisted, he’s got the Icefield ahead
There isn’t any decent gear, just stonefall and dread
See him dance on his crampons, clothes cold and wet
A climb some will remember, a climb some want to forget

So I ran to the Flatiron,
dodging rocks all the time
The Ghosts said, we haven't had your spirit here since you failed the previous time
And still those voices are calling from far away
Wake you up in the middle of the night
Just to hear them say

Welcome to the North Face of the Eiger
Such a brooding place (such a nasty face)
They’re battling a storm on the North Face of the Eiger
What a nice surprise, feel the danger rise

Water pours down the chimney, you wish it could have been ice,
The ghosts say, you are all just prisoners here, of your own device
And at the Brittle Ledges, the storm signals retreat
We see if we can sit it out, but I just can’t feel my feet

Last thing I remember, we were running for the Gallery Door
We had to find a passage back to the place we were before
“Relax” said the Spider, I am programmed to deceive
You can bail out anytime you like,
But you can never leave.
 mountainbagger 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Genius! This thread is full of surprises and posts of unusually consistent quality. There'll be enough for a book soon, never mind a song!
Douglas Griffin 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Top man!
 Rick Graham 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Nice one.

On the bivi we had on the Ramp, a Raven teased us by landing on a small ledge above a few times then flying around at will.

There were four of us sitting in a line, me, Andy then two Catalans.

I suggested to Andy that the Raven could have been a reincarnation of some climber deceased thereabouts.

Andy groaned and complained about my cruel joke.

The groans spread along the line in turn as it was translated across
 Rick Graham 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Bob:

> The section leaving the spider begins at around this point http://project360.mammut.ch/#route/eiger/heckmair-route/292/map


> In http://project360.mammut.ch/#route/eiger/heckmair-route/314/map I think the upper figure is at the Corti bivouac

> http://project360.mammut.ch/#route/eiger/heckmair-route/316/map definitely shows the same chimney line as taken by Es

Well done Bob, this should keep Ian quiet for a while.

If you scroll around on 316 you can look back at the Corti, down to the right. The climber on 316 is well above the Corti mid way up the first Exit crack pitch I think, where it starts to get less steep but very tricky I guess under verglas.

 Goucho 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

Are you sure it wasn't a vulture?

Isn't the old superstition that the appearance of a raven three times, means impending doom?

There must have been a bloody flock of the bastards hiding up there for us

Got to much time and wine on my hands today. Trying to see if I can adapt Benny Hills "Ernie" for this thread?
 Ian Parsons 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Well done Bob, this should keep Ian quiet for a while.

Too right, Rick - that's amazing! Top marks, Bob; made my day. And Tom, who posted it yesterday; had a quick look at it then but completely failed to grasp what you can actually do with it.

Some of the old accounts really come to life when you can actually see the terrain involved, and some of the bits that are hard to understand suddenly make much more sense. That view looking up at the Corti Bivouac makes it immediately recognisable as the "pulpit" that is often described, and the ground above it must be where Heckmair tried to force a route before opting for the abseil to the chimney down left.

Looking forward to hours of study; excellent work, chaps!
 Es Tresidder 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Ian Parsons:

> Es; as far as I understand it you think you climbed the icy crack/chimney line immediately above and to the left of the upper of three figures in the photograph that I posted earlier. I have to say that, out of the three options in view - ie this one and the two chimneys down to the left, each apparently the upward continuation of the two lower ice streaks - this one appears to least match the detail in your shot looking up that first chimney.

Hi Ian, I think we're talking at cross purposes, referring to different photographs! The exit chimney I took, and the same as the photo from the Twight etc US ascent, and all other photos I've seen of the exit chimneys, was directly above the head of the climber in this photo: http://tinyurl.com/l9k8wtv

In this photo (http://tinyurl.com/op7r79j), the exit chimney I took is the second from left coming down from the skyline. The one with not much snow in it.

Agree with all Bob's locations in the post below linking to the Mammut thing, and would add that the last photo, looking up at the exit chimneys, if you pan left you can see the Corti bivi ledge as the small patch of snow on the skyline, with the block with the snowy wide crack behind it. There were some shiny bolts in the block when we did it, so at least we weren't at all scared when we repeatedly slipped off the bivi ledge in the night!
 Goucho 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Es Tresidder:


> Agree with all Bob's locations in the post below linking to the Mammut thing, and would add that the last photo, looking up at the exit chimneys, if you pan left you can see the Corti bivi ledge as the small patch of snow on the skyline, with the block with the snowy wide crack behind it. There were some shiny bolts in the block when we did it, so at least we weren't at all scared when we repeatedly slipped off the bivi ledge in the night!

I would not want to spend 4 days stuck on that ledge in a storm, on my own, as Corti did in 57'!!!!!

 blackcat 08 Feb 2015
In reply to mountainbagger: Totally agree this thread has been best ever makes addictive reading, and makes it even more crazy that some guy can come along and solo it in under three hours.

 Mick Ward 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Re Hotel California adapted:

Brilliant!

'No suffering, no art.' (As Flaubert might have said and indeed may have said, for all I know. But what had he ever done on...? Ah, forget it.)

Mick
 Rick Graham 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Es Tresidder:
Sorry Es and Ian.

My post of 18.13 today was a bit misleading. I had gone up the pitch a bit with the seconding climber in blue and then panned down to the climber in orange on what I think is the Corti. This is at the top of the short fixed rope at 316.

Es talks about panning left and the photo of him climbing this pitch is taken from down left. Perhaps Es and I are referring to different ledges?

At least we all appear to be agreed on which chimney to climb!

So there is less additional confusion, the climber leading has blue trous and orange top, the Corti ledge climber's jacket is red/orange.
Post edited at 21:12
 Ian Parsons 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Es Tresidder:
> Hi Ian, I think we're talking at cross purposes, referring to different photographs! The exit chimney I took, and the same as the photo from the Twight etc US ascent, and all other photos I've seen of the exit chimneys, was directly above the head of the climber in this photo: http://tinyurl.com/l9k8wtv

> In this photo (http://tinyurl.com/op7r79j), the exit chimney I took is the second from left coming down from the skyline. The one with not much snow in it.

> Agree with all Bob's locations in the post below linking to the Mammut thing, and would add that the last photo, looking up at the exit chimneys, if you pan left you can see the Corti bivi ledge as the small patch of snow on the skyline, with the block with the snowy wide crack behind it. There were some shiny bolts in the block when we did it, so at least we weren't at all scared when we repeatedly slipped off the bivi ledge in the night!

Hi Es.

I'm afraid I'm a bit perplexed! You refer to the Corti Ledge as being to the left of the base of the final chimney, visible if you pan left with that last frame. According to Rick, if you pan right with that same frame (316) you can see the Corti Ledge. He actually said looking down to the right, although to me it looks like looking up right back along the fixed rope; possibly he meant 317 which is higher up. Anyway - that's how I understand it, and I think Rick agrees; the Corti Ledge is the one you abseil/climb down from, and is situated somewhere atop that rounded buttress just left of the highest figure in the centre of the first photo I posted. But the photo of "Mike in the Exit Cracks/Approaching the Corti Bivi" is, I'm fairly sure, moving up to that ledge at the top of the fixed ropes rather than the one you must have bivied on (if left of the final chimney); it appears to be taken from the belay at the top of the Quartz Crack (that highest figure is presumably belaying there) and the quartz bands in that photo exactly match those in 313 and 314 of the Mammut Tour which, again, show the section moving left and up from the top of the Quartz Crack (but missing out that belay).

I hope this hasn't made things more complicated!

Edit: Wrote this while Rick was posting. The other thing I don't understand - assuming that that is the fixed rope visible in the large picture - is that its bottom end appears to be anchored just right of the chimney you climbed (visible in your picture), whereas if you climbed the second one from the left then the rope would be anchored to its left. I think Bob's view is that it's the furthest one left.
Post edited at 21:24
 Rick Graham 08 Feb 2015
In reply to blackcat:

> Totally agree this thread has been best ever makes addictive reading, and makes it even more crazy that some guy can come along and solo it in under three hours.

Two guys, both very special.
 Rick Graham 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Ian Parsons:
Ian

I think you have it sorted. Result.

Have spent more time today and last night perusing this puzzle than it took to climb the Quartz Crack and the first exit crack pitch in the real world

Nice to have done both though.
Post edited at 21:23
 Ian Parsons 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Nice to have done both though.

Having done neither, I can still say it's nice to have a much better idea what they look like!
 Goucho 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:
> Two guys, both very special.

I admit to not being able to get my head round Stecks time - even if it was something like his 35th ascent of the route.

In 2007 when he did it in under 4 hours, he only took 1 hour 48 minutes from the foot of the face to Death Bivi - that's a perfectly respectable time to just reach the bottom of the Difficult Crack!

His current record of 2 hours 47 minutes is completely and utterly incomprehensible to me!!!
Post edited at 21:30
 Rick Graham 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Ian Parsons:

Perhaps we should all sit down at the same computer and sort this out.

Alternatively if we all carried a rope up, we could ab in and check it out on the crag !

If we all carried up two ropes, Goucho and Roger Webb could come along to get the full tick!
 Es Tresidder 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Ian Parsons:
Hi Ian,

We definitely slept on the ledge to the left of the base of the final chimney (pan left in 316). Perhaps we didn't sleep at the Corti bivi and this is in fact further right, at the top of the Quartz crack, I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure that where we slept was the best bivi thereabouts in the conditions we had it though, so I always assumed it was the Corti.

> Edit: Wrote this while Rick was posting. The other thing I don't understand - assuming that that is the fixed rope visible in the large picture - is that its bottom end appears to be anchored just right of the chimney you climbed (visible in your picture), whereas if you climbed the second one from the left then the rope would be anchored to its left. I think Bob's view is that it's the furthest one left.

Looking again at that other photo (http://tinyurl.com/op7r79j) I think you're right that it's the furthest one left.
Post edited at 21:37
 Goucho 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:
> If we all carried up two ropes, Goucho and Roger Webb could come along to get the full tick!

Cheeky

Mind you, could be the first ascent by a rope with only 3 eyes and 18 toes between them?

And if you carry on, I shall post my completed Eiger adaptation of Benny Hills 'Ernie the fastest Milkman'!
Post edited at 21:45
 Rick Graham 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

I was trying to be helpful.

Glad you are a bit calmer about things, I deleted a quip about needing some duct tape to stop your screaming
 Goucho 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:
> I was trying to be helpful.

> Glad you are a bit calmer about things, I deleted a quip about needing some duct tape to stop your screaming

"Tel me Clarice - have the lambs stopped screaming?"
Post edited at 21:56
 blackcat 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham: Just out of curiosity, if the hinterstoiser rope wasnt in place , how much more difficult would this make the climb by todays standards, and would it have put some of you guys off.
 Rick Graham 08 Feb 2015
In reply to blackcat:

I think this was discussed recently.

Something like 7a free in the dry, sometimes in winter good neve or ice so possibly Scottish IV.

I was pleased it had some ropes fixed across, also very useful to get back on once.

Whillans found a way to avoid the ropes in descent but he was good at that sort of thing.
 Ian Parsons 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Es Tresidder:

Hah; I can sleep easy!

But seriously - I think I'd struggle to remember such precise details of most alpine routes I've done; I recall one instance when I completely forgot a bivouac and as a result seemed to have lost a day somewhere! And it's amazing how different things look in a large photo from afar compared with the far more restricted view normally available when actually climbing.

Now, what about The Ramp? I spotted a bit of gear out to the side that......
 Tom F Harding 09 Feb 2015
In reply to Ian Parsons:
> Tom, who posted it yesterday; had a quick look at it then but completely failed to grasp what you can actually do with it.

Excuse me, I posted the link to the mammut 360 page exactly because I grasped what you could do with it. I have no interest in exactly where the exit cracks run or any other part of the eiger route so have no reason to posting a longer response. I was just helping you out with a resource you would find useful. In future I won't bother and simply leave the armchair alpanists to it while your hair gets even greyer.
Post edited at 08:52
 Bob 09 Feb 2015
In reply to Tom F Harding:

Whoa! I think you have misread what Ian posted. He said that you posted it but that he had a quick look etc. There's a semi-colon in there splitting things up. Might have been more explicit by using a full stop then I had a quick look ... but there you go.

Thanks for the link anyway.
 rogerwebb 09 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:
>
> If we all carried up two ropes, Goucho and Roger Webb could come along to get the full tick!

You're on!

baron 09 Feb 2015
In reply to Tom F Harding: while I have read this thread with great interest, never been on the eiger but it's thrilling to read the accounts of those who have, your link to the 360 photos provided me with a much better understanding of the north face. Thanks for posting the link


Pmc

 Ian Parsons 09 Feb 2015
In reply to Tom F Harding:

Sorry Tom - I should probably have made that clearer. As Bob says, I was actually referring to myself; that last clause was originally typed beginning with an "I" which I then deleted as superfluous in a rare attempt at brevity. The "And Tom" was intended to extend to you the credit, that I had already afforded Bob, for putting the Mammut thing out there in the first place; it was enormously helpful.

My hair isn't in fact as grey as I would expect at my age, although the armchair definitely gets more inviting by the day!
 gav p 09 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Perhaps not as well known is that Dani Arnold took a big chunk off Steck's record four years ago - http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?keyid=38102
 Tom F Harding 09 Feb 2015
In reply to Ian Parsons:

My apologies, in my grumpy Monday morning state I miss read your post.
Thank you for your apology but It was in fact my mistake so I should be the one
saying sorry.

The mammut 360 project is pretty amazing though. The Matterhorn one may be of interest too.
 zimpara 09 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

Sublime thread and a joy to read about everyones experiences.
 Goucho 09 Feb 2015
In reply to gav p:
> Perhaps not as well known is that Dani Arnold took a big chunk off Steck's record four years ago - http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?keyid=38102

Be interesting to know the fastest anyone has climbed it without prior knowledge of the route though - could it still be Uli Buher who did it IIRC in about 7 hours?

Or am I completely out of touch with recent history?
Post edited at 16:56
 Goucho 09 Feb 2015
In reply to Tom F Harding:

> The mammut 360 project is pretty amazing though. The Matterhorn one may be of interest too.

The shots are amazing - how do they get those 360 panorama's?

Combined with the obvious great weather, they almost make the face look quite attractive!!!

 Ian Parsons 09 Feb 2015
In reply to Tom F Harding:

Don't worry about it; the blame lies largely with me for poor phrasing compounded by inadequate checking prior to hitting "submit". Plus I've never been called an armchair alpinist before - despite increasingly resembling one - so it's a win/win all round!
 rogerwebb 09 Feb 2015
In reply to gav p:

> Perhaps not as well known is that Dani Arnold took a big chunk off Steck's record four years ago - http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?keyid=38102

That's just flash!

Guy is obviously running on duracells, drinks Carling Black label and had his Weetabix.

(Goucho and I were aiming for the 'cigar called Hamlet' sponsorship ( a joke wasted on those under 45 or so))

I'm not sure that impressive covers it even with expletives
 Goucho 09 Feb 2015
In reply to rogerwebb:
> (Goucho and I were aiming for the 'cigar called Hamlet' sponsorship ( a joke wasted on those under 45 or so))


That made me chuckle Roger.

And there were so many Hamlet moments to be had - every bloody pitch!!!
Post edited at 17:35
 Bob 09 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> The shots are amazing - how do they get those 360 panorama's?

In some of the shots you can see the cameras mounted on poles about a metre long sticking out of their rucksacks. It looks like it's a group of maybe half a dozen cameras all pointing in different directions and likely with fairly wide-angle lenses. They are probably set up to automatically take a shot every 30 seconds or a minute or so.

Once back in the lab, it's a case of running each set of shots through some software to stitch them together and to remove the pole from each end shot. Bloomin' impressive though.

I don't remember the long slopes leading from the top of the Exit Cracks to the ridge though, maybe they were much snowier when we did it.
 mark mcgowan01 09 Feb 2015
In reply to NeilBoyd:

Hi Neil and Roger,

It was one of the most amazing adventures on that face. Hope you and Ian are all well.

It was the scariest of places that seems to test most to their core.

Everyone needs luck on the Nordwand... So good luck to the chap who wants to climb it. Get as aerobically fit as you can, climb with people you trust, take your weather window and go for the top... It will change your life.

All the best
Mark

PS. Read the White Spider every night because better the devil you know...
 Rick Graham 09 Feb 2015
In reply to mark mcgowan01:

"Everyone needs luck on the Nordwand."

Nicely summed up in six words. Well done , Mark.

Sleep well everyone
 LukeO 10 Feb 2015
In reply to gav p:

I might be wrong, but I think Steck was alone in freeing the Hinterstoisser, whereas Arnold used the ropes.
 Goucho 10 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

OK, you probably need to have been around when Benny Hill's 'Ernie' was a giant amongst the pantheon of classic 70's Number 1's, but here it is adapted:-

ERNIE, THE FASTEST CLIMBER IN THE WEST.

You could hear the axes pound, as he swung them once then twice
And the clatter of his crampons, as the front points kicked the ice
As he galloped up the mountain, his slings across his chest
His name was Ernie, and he was the fastest climber in the west

Now Ernie loved a widow, a lady known as Sue
She lived all alone in Grindelwald at number 22
They said she was too good for him, she was haughty, proud and chic
But Ernie got his axes sharpened three times every week

They called him Ernie (Ernieeeeee)
And he was the fastest climber in the West

She said she’d like to bathe in beer, he said “I’ll wash your back”
And when he’d finished climbing one night, he loaded up his sac
He said “Do you want it bottled? Coz bottled beer is best
She says “Ernie I’ll be happy if it comes up to me chest”

That tickled old Ernie (Ernieeeee)
And he was the fastest climber in the West

Now Ernie had a rival, an evil looking man
Called biceps Ed from Scheidegg, a big hard mountain man
He tempted her with his pull-ups, with a weight belt filled with lead
And when she seen the size of his massive thighs it very near turned her head


She nearly swooned at his bridging moves and he said “If you treat me right”
You’ll have ED1’s for breakfast, and ED2’s at night
He knew once she’d sampled his Italian Hitch, he’d have his wicked way
And all Ernie had to offer was a pint of beer a day

Poor Ernie (Ernieeee)
And he was the fastest climber in the west

One lunch time Ed saw Ernie’s sac and ropes outside Sue’s door
It drove him mad to see they were still there at half past four
As he leapt down from his fingerboard hot blood through his veins did vent
And he went over to Ernie’s sac and didn’t half kick his tent

Who’s name was Vango (Vangoooo)
And he housed the fastest climber in the west

Now Ernie rushed into the street his ice axe in his hand
He said “If you want to marry Sue, you’ll fight for her like a man”
“Oh why don’t we just climb for her” Ed sneered across his face
“And just to make it interesting, we’ll use the Eiger as a race

Now Ed and Ernie rushed up to the bottom of the face
As they both raced up the lower slopes, Ed increased his pace
But Ernie was too quick, things didn’t go the way Ed planned
Ernie reached the Difficult Crack first, and got the upper hand

Now Ed he followed quickly, and beneath the Rhote Fluh
He knocked Ernie off his balance, and then a piece of gear he threw
As Ernie struggled with his placements, in the rock hard icy crust
A Rock Number Five, caught him in the eye, and Ernie bit the dust

Poor Ernie (Ernieeee)
And he was the fastest climber in the West

Ernie was only 32, he didn’t wanna die
And now he’s gone to join the others on that belay in the sky
Where every route is bombproof, and alpine storms are banned
And a climbers life is full of fun in that airy fairy land

But a woman’s needs are many fold, and soon she married Ed
But strange things happened on their wedding night, as they lay in their bed
Was that the wind a whistling, or the creaking of the door?
Or Ernie’s ghostly crampons scraping on the floor?

They won’t forget old Ernie (Ernieeee)
And he was the fastest climber in the West!


 Bob 10 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Nice!

I've now got the image of Benny Hill in white coat, glasses and hat askew being chased at 1.5 speed across the second icefield by several scantily clad women and their angry husbands!
 Goucho 10 Feb 2015
In reply to Bob:

> I've now got the image of Benny Hill in white coat, glasses and hat askew being chased at 1.5 speed across the second icefield by several scantily clad women and their angry husbands!



 streapadair 10 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Brilliant. With Hotel California I suspected you were a genius, now I know it.
 Rick Graham 10 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> OK, you probably need to have been around when Benny Hill's 'Ernie' was a giant amongst the pantheon of classic 70's Number 1's, but here it is adapted:-

> ERNIE, THE FASTEST CLIMBER IN THE WEST.

> You could hear the axes pound, as he swung them once then twice

> And the clatter of his crampons, as the front points kicked the ice

> As he galloped up the mountain, his slings across his chest

> His name was Ernie, and he was the fastest climber in the west

> Now Ernie loved a widow, a lady known as Sue

> She lived all alone in Grindelwald at number 22

> They said she was too good for him, she was haughty, proud and chic

> But Ernie got his axes sharpened three times every week

> They called him Ernie (Ernieeeeee)

> And he was the fastest climber in the West

> She said she’d like to bathe in beer, he said “I’ll wash your back”

> And when he’d finished climbing one night, he loaded up his sac

> He said “Do you want it bottled? Coz bottled beer is best

> She says “Ernie I’ll be happy if it comes up to me chest”

> That tickled old Ernie (Ernieeeee)

> And he was the fastest climber in the West

> Now Ernie had a rival, an evil looking man

> Called biceps Ed from Scheidegg, a big hard mountain man

> He tempted her with his pull-ups, with a weight belt filled with lead

> And when she seen the size of his massive thighs it very near turned her head

> She nearly swooned at his bridging moves and he said “If you treat me right”

> You’ll have ED1’s for breakfast, and ED2’s at night

> He knew once she’d sampled his Italian Hitch, he’d have his wicked way

> And all Ernie had to offer was a pint of beer a day

> Poor Ernie (Ernieeee)

> And he was the fastest climber in the west

> One lunch time Ed saw Ernie’s sac and ropes outside Sue’s door

> It drove him mad to see they were still there at half past four

> As he leapt down from his fingerboard hot blood through his veins did vent

> And he went over to Ernie’s sac and didn’t half kick his tent

> Who’s name was Vango (Vangoooo)

> And he housed the fastest climber in the west

> Now Ernie rushed into the street his ice axe in his hand

> He said “If you want to marry Sue, you’ll fight for her like a man”

> “Oh why don’t we just climb for her” Ed sneered across his face

> “And just to make it interesting, we’ll use the Eiger as a race

> Now Ed and Ernie rushed up to the bottom of the face

> As they both raced up the lower slopes, Ed increased his pace

> But Ernie was too quick, things didn’t go the way Ed planned

> Ernie reached the Difficult Crack first, and got the upper hand

> Now Ed he followed quickly, and beneath the Rhote Fluh

> He knocked Ernie off his balance, and then a piece of gear he threw

> As Ernie struggled with his placements, in the rock hard icy crust

> A Rock Number Five, caught him in the eye, and Ernie bit the dust

> Poor Ernie (Ernieeee)

> And he was the fastest climber in the West

> Ernie was only 32, he didn’t wanna die

> And now he’s gone to join the others on that belay in the sky

> Where every route is bombproof, and alpine storms are banned

> And a climbers life is full of fun in that airy fairy land

> But a woman’s needs are many fold, and soon she married Ed

> But strange things happened on their wedding night, as they lay in their bed

> Was that the wind a whistling, or the creaking of the door?

> Or Ernie’s ghostly crampons scraping on the floor?

> They won’t forget old Ernie (Ernieeee)

> And he was the fastest climber in the West!

Nice one G, is the weather bad there today?
 Goucho 10 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

Been about 15 - 16 degrees Rick, with a light wind - most of it coming from me

Spent all day waiting for the surveyor to come from the people who've bought the house - he turned up 3 hours late!

 Ian Parsons 10 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Homer eat your heart out - and I don't mean Simpson!
 Mick Ward 11 Feb 2015
In reply to streapadair:

> Brilliant. With Hotel California I suspected you were a genius, now I know it.

Agree.

Mick
 rogerwebb 11 Feb 2015
In reply to mark mcgowan01:
Thanks Mark.

You were a bit of a star that day.

If you happen to have a photo of the helicopter I'd love to see it.
Post edited at 16:23
 Rob Parsons 11 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

Robert Durran hasn't mentioned it in this thread, but the story of his and Brendan Murphy's ascent of the 1938 route is told in Mountain Magazine #138, March/April 1991, article 'Five Days One Easter.'
 mark mcgowan01 11 Feb 2015
In reply to rogerwebb:

Thanks Roger. I have a shot of the chopper coming in for it's first recky. Will post a link
Removed User 11 Feb 2015
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Robert Durran hasn't mentioned it in this thread, but the story of his and Brendan Murphy's ascent of the 1938 route is told in Mountain Magazine #138, March/April 1991, article 'Five Days One Easter.'

One of the most gripping articles to grace that publication, which is saying something.
 rogerwebb 13 Feb 2015
In reply to mark mcgowan01:

thanks, what a beautiful day it was!
 Goucho 14 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Looks like this thread is coming to its natural end, so just wanted to thank Supachop for starting it, and to everyone else for their great contribution. It's been a good one, and to quote Vinnie Jones - "It's been emotional".

Now time to start the nightmare of packing up the house!!!
 Rick Graham 14 Feb 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Like my daughter, I always like the last word, wonder where she got that from?

Yes, G , it has been emotional, perhaps we all need to go out for a beer when you get back to the UK.

or maybe all see a shrink together?
 Theseboots 16 Feb 2015
In reply to mark mcgowan01:

Enjoyed your blogspot Mark,particularly "getting off flat street"--"red slab to the water slab...killing it!"
Would recommend these to anyone interested in winter mountaineering,esp 80's Scottish-
cautionary tales,well written, that leave you with some sobering thoughts.
Thanks Mark and to all who've contributed to this marvellous thread-great tales and advice.
ps fig rolls were always essential bait for us aswell :]

Thanks
Dave
 Robert Durran 16 Feb 2015
In reply to Removed User:

> One of the most gripping articles to grace that publication, which is saying something.

Thanks! I have a scan of this article and would happily email it to anyone willing to put it somewhere where they can provide a link to it (my technology know-how falls short.......).
 Goucho 16 Feb 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Yes, G , it has been emotional, perhaps we all need to go out for a beer when you get back to the UK.

> or maybe all see a shrink together?

The former followed by the latter I think Rick
 streapadair 16 Feb 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

Robert, faute de mieux I'd be happy to put in in my Dropbox and post the link here.

duncandmc(AT)btinternet(DOT)com
 lithos 28 Feb 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

what a great thread just found it as don't usually read this forum.

Bob what do you think allowed you to pass the other parties en route,
(eg fitter, bolder, better climbers , less faff....)

heres a video from PYB instructors Keith Ball and Dave Rudkin from last year
vimeo.com/101660942
 Sophie G. 28 Feb 2015
In reply to lithos:
It's been a long time since UKC has had a thread anything like this good.

Apologies if this has already been posted somewhere on the thread (I've read the whole thing and I can't see it):

youtube.com/watch?v=IjRGHGV_MVI&

I feel sick just watching Ueli. There's one moment where his tool slips off a placement, and another moment where his left crampon goes. I've watched the clip about ten times now, and I still can't see either happen without yelping out loud. Just watching his picks flexing in the cracks is bad enough.

I am one of nature's belayers, and my instinct watching him is to say what I'd say if I were seconding him up this monster. Which is something like: "For God's sake, slow down, calm down, stop and THINK, get some effin' GEAR in before you do the next bit, it looks nails."

But there is no belayer because there is no rope, no gear, nothing... nothing below him but a cold abyss of air.

Brrrrr. This one is definitely not on my bucket list.
Post edited at 14:40
 Bob 28 Feb 2015
In reply to lithos:

Being bloody minded

There were three other parties on the face at the same time as ourselves, or rather we interacted with three other parties there could have been teams a day ahead or a day behind. There were: John Sylvester and Simon Yates (of Touching the Void fame); a 60 year old German with his 16 year old son; three Americans.

John and Simon were behind us all the time so no issue about overtaking them, they bivvied with us at The Swallow's Nest. The Germans were at The Swallow's Nest when we got there - I think we go away earlier in the morning but they were never far behind us and I think bivouaced on The Brittle Ledges with John and Simon. The Americans were at the bivouac at the start of The Traverse of the Gods when we got there - we just decided to forgo breakfast and get ahead of them, so less faffing. We never saw them after that so it was probably a good decision.
 Robert Durran 28 Feb 2015
In reply to Rob Parsons:
>
> Robert Durran hasn't mentioned it in this thread, but the story of his and Brendan Murphy's ascent of the 1938 route is told in Mountain Magazine #138, March/April 1991, article 'Five Days One Easter.'

Here is a scan of the article: https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/Robert/Mountain%20138%20Eiger%20Article.pdf?...

Brendan was one of the really good guys and a truly great climber. This was only his second alpine mixed route of any substance. I wish I had done more in the mountains with him but he soon moved on to a higher league whereas I knew I had found and all but stepped over my limit. Still greatly missed by many.
 streapadair 28 Feb 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

I don't think you've made that file publicly viewable, Robert.

https://www.dropbox.com/help/167
 pneame 28 Feb 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

I only knew of Brendan Murphy through Andy Cave's book - there's some ineffably sad material on his memorial page.
http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~murphyk/Brendan/brendan.html
Particularly the poems.

Which do make me wonder at my youth. I'm getting a bit maudlin....
1
 Robert Durran 28 Feb 2015
In reply to pneame:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> I only knew of Brendan Murphy through Andy Cave's book.

There is a touching tribute from Andy in thre recent film "Distilled".
 lithos 01 Mar 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

nope
 Robert Durran 01 Mar 2015
In reply to lithos:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)

> nope

God, I hate technology: folow instructions step by step and it still never works.....

Try this:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26602038/Mountain%20138%20Eiger%20Artic...
 tehmarks 01 Mar 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

Third time lucky
 tehmarks 01 Mar 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

A fantastic read, thank you!
 mountainbagger 01 Mar 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

>

> God, I hate technology: folow instructions step by step and it still never works.....

> Try this:


Brilliant, thanks for posting it. Great read!
 leeoftroy 01 Mar 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

Indeed a very interesting thread, and very refreshingly devoid of all the nonsense and 'trolling' that ruins so many potentially brilliant conversations. Thanks for all the stories and information which are perhaps more valuable to an aspiring Eiger ascensionist than many of the books which have been written.
 pneame 01 Mar 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

Superb - I haven't got that copy of Mountain. Incredible pictures.
Thanks
 Mick Ward 01 Mar 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

Great stuff! Trouser filling...

Mick
 David Rose 02 Mar 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

What a superb article. Terrifying.
 JohnnyW 02 Mar 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

Sooo out of my league, but riveting stuff.
 Goucho 02 Mar 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

Great article Rob, and complete respect for pushing through and topping out.
 Puppythedog 02 Mar 2015
In reply to Superchop75:
Thank you to all participants for this thread. I have enjoyed it immensely.
 Robert Durran 02 Mar 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> Great article Rob, and complete respect for pushing through and topping out.

Believe me, if we had thought it possible to run away, we would have done so.

 Goucho 02 Mar 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:
> Believe me, if we had thought it possible to run away, we would have done so.

Having run away twice Rob, I'm still not sure with hindsight, whether they were the right decisions. It's not a face that takes too kindly to you running away

An old friend of mine and very good climber, went up to do it, only got as far as the Shattered Pillar, before looking up and saying "F*ck this for a game of soldiers, life's to short to be wasted on this heap of shit" and promptly turned back!
Post edited at 21:26
 Simon4 03 Mar 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> An old friend of mine and very good climber, went up to do it, only got as far as the Shattered Pillar, before looking up and saying "F*ck this for a game of soldiers, life's to short to be wasted on this heap of shit" and promptly turned back!

Quite - my admiration for those who have pushed on and done this route (which is huge), is only slightly moderated by the consideration that they are bat-shit crazy.

But then I don't have the technical ability, the determination or the sheer character to go for such a monstrous undertaking.
 Goucho 03 Mar 2015
In reply to Simon4:

> Quite - my admiration for those who have pushed on and done this route (which is huge), is only slightly moderated by the consideration that they are bat-shit crazy.

> But then I don't have the technical ability, the determination or the sheer character to go for such a monstrous undertaking.

I am left with the nagging thoughts, that if we'd sat out the storm at the Brittle Ledges, and then pushed on, it might have been less horrendous than our 3 day retreat through the storm - and I would have also slain the demon too?

But then again, looking at the tough time Rob and Brendan had in the Exit Cracks - including what must have been the bivi from hell - I'm not sure I have the mental strength to put it on the line like they did. Ultimately, I just don't think I wanted it enough, to overcome the fear?

 Simon4 03 Mar 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> I am left with the nagging thoughts, that if we'd sat out the storm at the Brittle Ledges, and then pushed on, it might have been less horrendous than our 3 day retreat through the storm - and I would have also slain the demon too?

"The moving finger writes, and having writ moves on
Nor all your piety nor wit, shall lure it back to cancel half a line
Nor all your tears wash out a word of it"
 Mick Ward 03 Mar 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> I am left with the nagging thoughts, that if we'd sat out the storm at the Brittle Ledges, and then pushed on, it might have been less horrendous than our 3 day retreat through the storm - and I would have also slain the demon too?

Goucho, that way is madness. Yes, it might have been less horrendous and yes, the demon might have been slain. But it might have been more horrendous, the demon might have remained unslain and you and your mate might well have died.

You made a decision, you stuck to it, you made it work in conditions which would have killed 99% of us. Ultimately that's what matters.

Maybe it's guilt at having so very nearly thumped RBJ in the main street of Cham (subtle, no? He was asking for it at the time but, bless him, quickly sobered up and behaved quite decently) which makes me endlessly repeat his mantra:

Come back.
Come back friends.
Top out.

You ended up getting the most important bits right. OK I accept the trauma and that's easy for me to say and hard for you to live with. But you're still here, alive. You've got a wife and kids, everything to live for.

We rise to a new day, the sun comes up, we work, we play. Hopefully we learn. It's a cosmic dance. And it's not over until it's over.

Mick





 Rick Graham 03 Mar 2015
In reply to Goucho:


> An old friend of mine and very good climber, went up to do it, only got as far as the Shattered Pillar, before looking up and saying "F*ck this for a game of soldiers, life's to short to be wasted on this heap of shit" and promptly turned back!

TBH the rock on 38 route is actually quite good above the tunnel window.

The lower face has a peculiar scree on it, probably due to all the blasted spoil tipped out of the windows during the tunnel construction. Did it in quite "dry " conditions so probably seen more exposed rock than most.

The only section I would consider "loose" was the TOTG, but this is often banked out during winter/spring.

The rockfall also is not that bad really, the main problem is that as a climber you can be in the firing line!
Of the three, Eiger, Matterhorn, GJ, surprisingly, in my experience, the GJ is by far the noisiest to sleep on, it seems to be in self destruct mode all night.
 jon 03 Mar 2015
In reply to Mick Ward:

> You made a decision, you stuck to it, you made it work...

Hey Mick! I've had to make a lot of decisions in the mountains (though, thank god, nowhere near the Eiger) and the one thing I've learned over the years is that once you HAVE made the decision... it's the right one. If you don't accept that then you'll never make decisions.

In reply to jon:

I keep mulling over whether we should have descended or continued on the Dru Couloir last autumn. We had set a "turnaround time" of 4pm as the next day's forecast was worsening and we wanted to be off the mountain before dark.

By 4.30pm we'd just hit the intersection with the "direct" and therefore only 200m of easier climbing to the top. We bailed and walked all the way back to Chamonix. My feet were mush! (brutal way to break in a brand new pair of Spantiks)

As you say, any decision is "the right decision" but I can't help feel that if I'd been a bit more experienced in the area I'd have nipped up and back down. Can always go and try again...
 Goucho 04 Mar 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> TBH the rock on 38 route is actually quite good above the tunnel window.

Relatively speaking Rick

> The lower face has a peculiar scree on it, probably due to all the blasted spoil tipped out of the windows during the tunnel construction. Did it in quite "dry " conditions so probably seen more exposed rock than most.

Of course, I've never thought about that aspect before - must have been hundreds of tons. Experienced the bottom half both dry, and icy, and whilst it's technically bordering a walk, it sets up the 'insecure' feeling that tends to accompany you throughout.

> The only section I would consider "loose" was the TOTG, but this is often banked out during winter/spring.

> The rockfall also is not that bad really, the main problem is that as a climber you can be in the firing line!

That is very condition dependent though. On my second retreat, the shit coming down and off the Spider was horrid, and the Second Icefield was like the Somme, hence why we climbed up to the top of it to try and minimise the danger.

> Of the three, Eiger, Matterhorn, GJ, surprisingly, in my experience, the GJ is by far the noisiest to sleep on, it seems to be in self destruct mode all night.

Last time I was on the GJ was about 80' and can't say I noticed that. However last year, did the Petite Jorrases West Face, and descending late afternoon in quite warm conditions, you could hear stuff coming down from the GJ. Talking to some people recently, and they say that nowadays, the top 50 or 60 metres of the NF - especially around the top of the Colton Mac, and right of this, is very unstable and a major rockfall could occur.
 Goucho 04 Mar 2015
In reply to Mick Ward:

> Goucho, that way is madness. Yes, it might have been less horrendous and yes, the demon might have been slain. But it might have been more horrendous, the demon might have remained unslain and you and your mate might well have died.

Oh I know we made the right decision Mick, because we did eventually get down in one piece (well almost). But as with all things in life, we sometimes look back with hindesight and ponder things.

> You made a decision, you stuck to it, you made it work in conditions which would have killed 99% of us. Ultimately that's what matters.

> Maybe it's guilt at having so very nearly thumped RBJ in the main street of Cham (subtle, no? He was asking for it at the time but, bless him, quickly sobered up and behaved quite decently) which makes me endlessly repeat his mantra:

> Come back.

> Come back friends.

> Top out.

Is RBJ Roger? If it is, I think his mantra is actually a paraphrasing of Heinrich Harrer from the White Spider?

> You ended up getting the most important bits right. OK I accept the trauma and that's easy for me to say and hard for you to live with. But you're still here, alive. You've got a wife and kids, everything to live for.

My life has been, and is good Mick, and the Eiger demons have been tucked up in bed for a long time now - until some bugger started a thread on it

> We rise to a new day, the sun comes up, we work, we play. Hopefully we learn. It's a cosmic dance. And it's not over until it's over.

I've been dancing in my disco pants all my life Mick

Gouch
 Bob 04 Mar 2015
In reply to Goucho:

I did the Walker Spur in 1983 and there was a constant rumble from the couloir to the right and from the Croz Spur - you can see some of the debris in shots #9 & #10 here http://bobwightman.co.uk/climb/slideshow.php?s=walker , it was as if the French equivalent of McAlpines were using the face as the dump for all their projects. With the Walker though, once you've done the initial icefield and easy ground up to around the base of the 75 metre diedre then there isn't much rockfall as you are out on a spur.

The Eiger is the opposite, it's concave with lots of funnels and the climbing either crosses these or, in the case of The White Spider, actually climbs up them. So even if the actual amount of rockfall on The Eiger is not large, its effect on the climbing is much greater.
 Goucho 04 Mar 2015
In reply to Bob:

Did the Walker in 79' and as you say, apart from a small amount of debris on the lower section, there's nothing to really worry about. We bivied on the traverse after the Red Chimney, which is IMHO one of the great Alpine bivi spots. It was a crisp cold clear night, and I slept so well, a bomb could have gone off on the ledge, and I wouldn't have heard it

The Eiger has basically been falling down since God made it!
 Robert Durran 04 Mar 2015
In reply to Goucho:

> Did the Walker in 79' and as you say, apart from a small amount of debris on the lower section, there's nothing to really worry about.

Wasn't there a huge rockfall on the walker in September 2003? I went to do it just afterwards all fit and psyched with a great forecast, only to be told it was probably in a very dangerous state and hadn't been reclimbed yet. Disappointing. I've heard of others having stonefall problems low down.
 Goucho 04 Mar 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Wasn't there a huge rockfall on the walker in September 2003? I went to do it just afterwards all fit and psyched with a great forecast, only to be told it was probably in a very dangerous state and hadn't been reclimbed yet. Disappointing. I've heard of others having stonefall problems low down.

Wasn't aware of this, but after the Bonnati Pillar fell down nothing would surprise me. Can't comment on the recent state of the Walker, but back when I did it, it was 2/3am start from the Leschaux hut.
 Rob Parsons 04 Mar 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Wasn't there a huge rockfall on the walker in September 2003?

Correct. 2003 was the super hot year, when everything was falling down ...

http://www.alpinejournal.org.uk/Contents/Contents_2005_files/AJ%202005%2027... implies that the line of the Cassin route wasn't materially affected by that rockfall, however.

 Robert Durran 04 Mar 2015
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Correct. 2003 was the super hot year, when everything was falling down ...

> http://www.alpinejournal.org.uk/Contents/Contents_2005_files/AJ%202005%2027... implies that the line of the Cassin route wasn't materially affected by that rockfall, however.

We arrived in Chamonix just after it happened and didn't want to be the guinea pigs so we went round and did the S. Ridge of the Noire instead. Doubt I'll ever do it now

 Rick Graham 04 Mar 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> We arrived in Chamonix just after it happened and didn't want to be the guinea pigs so we went round and did the S. Ridge of the Noire instead. Doubt I'll ever do it now

But the Walker is just another route on a north face, the Noire S ridge is quite a special route and mountain.

So a smiley required, Robert.
 David Rose 04 Mar 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

I did the Noire S Ridge in 2003. We had just got back to the hut after a storm-lashed descent of the E ridge following a bivvy hear the summit. The rain had stopped, but we were soaked. We were sitting wrapped in blankets having soup, bread and cheese on the terrace, when the biggest rockfall I hope I ever see engulfed much of the SE face. Car and piano sized boulders were raking the path from the foot of the descent to the hut down which we had been strolling not 20 minutes earlier. Terrifying. Had we been there still, we would not have stood a chance.
 Robert Durran 04 Mar 2015
In reply to Rick Graham:

> So a smiley required, Robert.

Yes, the Noire is amazing , but the Jorasses still feels like one that got away (I've had to retreat from both the West and Hirondelles ridges). Maybe I should get my act together and go back......

 Yanis Nayu 06 Mar 2015
In reply to Superchop75:

Superb thread.
cariva 06 Mar 2015
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Maybe I should get my act together and go back......

Sounds like you have a plan!

 Goucho 09 Mar 2015
In reply to Goucho:

Just found this interesting article about the Corti/Longhi incident - you might need to scroll down through all the 50's ads in the magazine.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VT8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&a...

What's interesting - shown in the route diagram of the face, is how far off route they were after the Ramp. It seems instead of going across the Brittle Ledges and TOG, they climbed straight up from the Ramp Icefield, and then after several rope lengths, traversed across to join the Spider (scene of Longhi's fall and eventual demise) near it's top. More detail of this on link below - 2nd shot.

http://www.jungfrauzeitung.ch/artikel/74105/

The B&W photo's make it even more atmospheric too.


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