UKC

Was looking to do some top rope soloing I was planning on using a basic dmm ascender and backing up using two cow tails clipped at intervals to loops on a second line. Would this be sufficient? Advice welcome

Thanks

In reply to Pj84:

Get a Petzl Shunt.

In reply to Pj84:

Just search on the forums for solo top rope or shunt, there's loads of threads covering this topic, eghttps://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php%3Ft%3D5...

In reply to Pj84:

Decide whether you want to just climb routes to get the mileage in (running laps) or work a route.Toothed ascenders are fine for running laps and a complete pain for working routes, I use a Shunt for this.

In reply to Pj84:

Advice welcome


Whatever you do , get it right, I am still limping from a cock up over 3 months ago. See my UKC pics.

In reply to Pj84:

I regularly used a Petzl basic ascender with a backup prussik loop and sling to let you unweight in case of having to descend. As long as there is no traversing it worked well. Never used a second rope, just make sure your top belay is bombproof and your rope is weighted with some gear. A piece of carpet or rope protector essential at the top to protect the rock.

Shunts of course work well, just take care if you fall towards the rock and accidentally push the lever in!


Dave

In reply to full stottie:


And it is a useful idea to tie a knot in the rope below the shunt every now and then just in case you do do that.

In reply to full stottie:

cheers dave. think i'll try that set up. thanks for the advice

Another vote for the Shunt here.
Done it a good few times, better if you tie something close to the ground on the rope to add a bit of weight to it, or bundle and tie up the remainder of rope together for the same reason.
Also if your rope is long enough you can double it up and tie a figure 8 in the middle on the anchor and use the Shunt on one side of the rope, so if you need to come down half way, you can use a standard belay device on the other side of the rope to lift your weight off the Shunt.
Or use a GriGri and pull slack through, but this is a bit awkward and not entirely safe.
Tom.

In reply to Pj84:

Shunt.

BUT

Work out how to retreat (for if you find the route too hard) *before* you leave the ground.

It's not hard, but I have seen a couple of people make a horlicks of it and need help.

Couple of hints: 1. the shunt **isn't** an abseil device (i.e. it's not the only kit you should take up); and 2. you will need to find a way to release tension on the shunt in order to abseil.

In reply to JJL:


Yes.


I kind of did this. But actually what I did was have another rope (or the other half of the same rope) there to transfer on to if necessary, with a prussic and stuff on my harness. I figured if I couldn't get up the route, then an extra rope in place, a belay device and prussic must be at least sufficient bits and bobs to get down, somehow. It probably was. but I got up the route so who knows whether it would have taken me 30s, 30mins or 30h to work out how to get down.

In reply to Pj84:
I vote against the shunt, especially if it's the sole protection. Compared to some other possible devices, I think it trades security for convenience. Haven't used any dmm ascenders but if its the equivalent of the (previous gen) Petzl Basic, I'd be happy with the safety of what you've outlined provided the intervals were suitably short.

I take it you've read the excellent Petzl documents on solo top roping

In reply to needvert:

Thanks for the reply. Yep I read the petal docs. Was just throwing my possible setup out there to see if anyone used similar. Will also take a belay device to abseil and a sling and prusik etc cheers for the advice

In reply to Pj84:

If you have the cash to spare get a couple of mini-traxions over a shunt which saves having to screw around with backups/clipping loops.

http://www.supertopo.com/photos/1/71/138637_31022_L.jpg

Works really well, can truly climb with no interruptions/having to mess about with the rope once you have it set up correctly. Bit of a bitch to undo it all and abseil back down to repeat, but that's TR soloing for you.

In reply to Pj84:
I do pretty much the same as Undertail and I always half the rope so that I have a seperate line with a Gri gri on for backup and so that I can descend if needed.

But just to add to it - use a semi static rope

In reply to Pj84:

double vote on petzl micro traxion

Second rope with a backup knot (if required) and a grigri (on an extended sling) to get down easily

In reply to Pj84:

Much easier to retreat with a second rope. The weighted rope can be a right pain to abseil down! The alternative is hauling the weight up the route and releasing it. Which is also annoying.

In reply to Cheese Monkey:
That's my method... No redundancy, but that's the point of soloing, right?
Load the shunt, work with the rope below (given it's not super tight - I tend to attach the bottom of the rope to the pretty much empty rucksack with a prusik knot), install ATC, take the slack into the ATC. Once Shunt becomes unloaded, disconnect the Shunt and abseil?

In reply to Pj84:

I use the mini-traxions to solo TR on the sandstone in season, as it's impossible for me to find partners and I love harrisons when it's super quiet and sunny.

Basic set-up is a mini-traxion (I need to mod it so it is impossible to lock open) with one of those BelayMaster type biners that can't get turned around. I used to use two mini-traxions both on the same rope as some in the USA suggest, but on short routes like on the sandstone I really don't see the point. As long as you are not stupid and backup your belay loop, have loose slings dangling around your waist or whatever and tuck your shirt in then reasonably nothing is going to get stuck in the workings and jam it up.

As others have said mini-traxions are a pain if you ever want to go down (fine for SS, lowering off and abseilling obviously mega discouraged) but they are really tough when working a route. The upside in my mind is they are absolutely bomb-proof and I honestly can't imagine a situation where anything would go wrong as long as you do all pre-climb checks and don't have anything that could get stuck in the device. I keep a gri-gri, another traxion and a few slings/prussicks on the back of my harness incase I need to ascend/descend the rope to 'escape'

I tie my water bottle at the bottom of the rope to weight it and the rope runs smoothtly through the device. Most routes I don't even feel like I'm attached to anything, it's awesome. I agree with others if you are working big long routes somewhere else than the SS it's a good idea to have a second backup rope to do any abbing from. Unweighting a rope you are attached to basically consists of sticking a prussik above you, clipping a long sling to that and then getting stood up on it so the weight is off whatever gear you have around your waist. A real pain in the ass and I've only done it once, didn't enjoy the experience

In reply to PPP:

Maybe my shunt is a bit grabby but I find I have to put most of my rack on the end of the rope to keep it running nicely!

In reply to anyone who knows:

Do you have to use a static rope with the shunt, or will a bog standard climbing rope do?

In reply to Willi Crater:

Petzl will tell you that Shunt should not be used as a TR self belay device, but dynamic rope is completely okay. It's a mechanical prusik knot which moves freely one direction, but locks if loaded.

Petzl claims it is unsafe as something might get caught in the device (a shirt, for example), the lever needs to be moving freely to work properly (didn't see an issue with that) and it is not fail proof (if you fall and grab the Shunt, you unlock it - in panic, you might not be able to let go the hand and you might deck). If you know these limitations and you accept the risk, feel free to use it.

Just wanted to clarify as Shunt is definitely the most popular device, even though it was never designed to be used like this.

In reply to Cheese Monkey:

I use it on doubled 10.2mm rope and it was alright. The rope isn't new, but in alright condition. Shunt is still as brand new, but doesn't look like it wears at all.

In reply to PPP:

I have been experimenting with different set ups on the Southern Sandstone.
Petzl shunt, mini traxion and DMM buddy. With 10 mm semi static rope.

Shunt works well but needs some weight on the bottom of the rope to run smoothly, especially at the start of the climb.
Traxion works well but I have a few times locked it off without realizing!
Doesn't need any weight on the rope.
Recommended by petzl.

Buddy seems to work well and allows down climbing without any changes required.

Buddy plus the Traxion together is my preferred setup.

Richard

In reply to JJL:

As has been said get a shunt. Be careful on overhangs though, if you come off you could be left dangling in space, so have a prusik ready to get yourself out of such a situation!

In reply to Jon Stewart:



You don't want to go using any sort of prussic on your ropes. I'd suggest reverting to the good old prusik.

In reply to Trangia:

I think flying down the rope if coming off on an overhang might be a bigger risk. On steep ground there is a real danger of holding the lever in the ‘open’ position: so Petzl do NOT reccomend using a Shunt for self belay on overhanging rock.

In reply to Pj84:

Personally i use a petzl microscender with a small loop of cord tied to hold it at the top of the belay loop and carry a grigri to get down. The toothed ascenders scare me slightly also tieing a knot every now and then as backup is never a bad idea

In reply to Richard Justice:

Have you seen the mod you can do to prevent this from happening?
It makes it impossible to lock off, so potentially makes the Traxion less useful for hauling etc., but I think it's a mod I'd be doing if I were going to use it for TR solo. (Especially without a backup.)

The few times I've dabbled in TR solo I've used two ropes with a Rocker or a Basic on one strand, and a Grigri on the other (pulling slack through as and when) as backup and for descent.

In reply to deepsoup:

I will have a look for that mod, thanks


I like to top rope at or a bit beyond my limit so pulling rope through is a no go.

cheers

Richard

In reply to deepsoup:

Or better...Use a microtraxion! Its better in almost every way (its not as cheap as a mini).

I suspect if we all started TR soloing from scratch today, the micro would be the most favoured device (part of its appeal is its a light and well regarded pulley, too, so is worth owning anyway). The mini seemed to me to be the most talked about device in the US last I looked (which was premicro release), and the shunt in the UK. Its interesting to compare the regional differences, and why they came to be. A commonly mentioned reason to preferring the shunt is due to the lack of teeth, I wonder if the yanks with their bigwall antics (and thus common usage of teethed ascenders, both in secondingnand hauling) has lead to more experience in what the effects of teethed ascenders on ropes actually are.

In reply to needvert:

Most British climbers have half ropes and the Shunt is the only device which works on them. It´s better anyway

I've never had an issue using a shunt until this year... I was doing laps on sea cliffs (ab in to ledges) in the middle of nowhere and on the third route I left my shunt at the top! Had a quick chuckle to myself at how dumb that was, and climbed out carefully on a backup tibloc I was carrying. Fortunately it was an easy route. So I'd say the most dangerous aspect of any set up is complacency!

In reply to Richard Justice:


Richard, I assume that this is on one rope? If so does the trax run well with the buddy below it? Also, I have not seen a buddy in action: will it lock if the force is not provided via a lanyard but from a trax smashing into the top of it?

Thanks.

In reply to Pj84:

I use a silent partner, works like a charm on the steep/vertical, it likes to jam on the traverses though. its a "hands free" gear. you don't need anything else as the SP can be used also as a descender to get you down (after you fell or just want to go down).
Unfortunately its rather on the expensive side and very hard to get as it has not got the CE mark because is made for US market.