UKC

How does 'over-camming' happen and how often does it happen?

In reply to JRT:

Clear pictures here
http://snowdoniamountainguides.com/Routes-Topos-Resources/Beginners-Guide-T...

In reply to JRT:
It happens when you try to put something too big into the hole (ooh err, missus)
Although I'm happy to be corrected, I don't think it compromises the placement, but it does make the cam a bugger to get out.
How often it happens depends on how good the leader is.

In reply to JRT:


It can happen in a couple of ways:

1. Poor placement. You pull the lobes so close together when place the cam that there is no further (or almost no further) movement available to release the lobes and extract the cam.

2. Movement after placement. Whether from rope movement moving the cam around while climbing is happening, or during tensioning of the rope from a fall or lower, or due to falling directly on the cam. The cam gets moved into a placement where there is no further movement available to release the lobes and the cam.

Generally speaking, an over-cammed cam will hold falls acceptably well, but will be difficult (to impossible) to remove.

In reply to climbwhenready:


Whoa steady on!!

If climbing well within limits you can hang around to suss the best placement and avoid over-camming. However, picture now leading at your limits on some gritstone problem where the crack topology denies you good access and/or inspection. Thats when it happens !!

In reply to dagibbs:


Maybe there's a call for a plastic frangible 'stop' that would prevent this, but be breakable in extremis if more cam movement was needed to extract it.

Race ya to the Patents Office!

In reply to marsbar:

If only a few of the people I've climbed with had seen and fully absorbed those clear pictures. I know a couple of folk who appear to think that unless it's massively overcammed, it's going to fall out. It makes seconding them an absolute trial.

In reply to cuppatea:
Didn't someone produce a range of cams with a camming guide on the side, so when you were in the 'ideal' camming range you could only see green dots, but could see red when under / over camming*



*this may have been a dream I had, if so.......my dreams are boring.

In reply to I'd rather be climbing:


Yes I've got a cam like that with green, amber and red dots. I think it's a Metolious.

Getting back to the general topic, I was always taught that you want to be pulling the lobes about halfway back. Any more than that to place it and you need to be using a smaller cam. I climbed for a while with an absolute clown who would pull them all the way back and ram them deep into breaks and cracks. He had all these old rigid stem cams too and they were a bastard to get out. Used to end up getting far more grit rash on my hands getting this joker's cams out than I did from actual climbing.

In reply to I'd rather be climbing:


Metolius do this, but the colors seem a bit arbitrary to me. Basically green means "overcammed", yellow means "good", and red means "will probably hold", if I remember correctly.

In reply to LeeWood:

Sure. But an inexperienced leader is likely to place more bad (including overcammed) cams? That's all I meant.

In reply to JRT:
I've lost at least two cams to over camming them myself. Both times were due to the cams walking after the placement I think. This happens mainly when the crack placement is not a uniform width which is very common. However that doesn't mean that you mustn't place the cam in such a crack. If you are going straight up afterwards, you may just need to extend it enough so that the cam doesn't get too many forces up and down (wiggling movements).

If the route wiggles or at least, the placements do, the wiggling forces may be even greater so more care is required with extension or even finding something different.

It all comes from experience, but of course losing a cam is a pretty annoying experience.

Another thing is that the Black diamond type (probably dragons too) seem to be much harder to over cam.

In reply to JRT:

I seem to be one of the few people who habitually extends cams. The short slings used on most brands seem to be only there to assist wih racking and don't do much to take movement out to stop cams walking. Using the sorts with extendable slings or clipping a quickdraw can make a big difference.

In reply to Howard J:


At the risk of contradicting modern popular opinion I've almost never extended cams, unless it was necessary to prevent rope drag by allowing the rope to follow a more direct path. I think my cam placements tend to be tighter than most but that means there is very little chance of them walking as there's usually precious little scope for movement. I also can hardly ever recall my cams being very hard to get out - presumably because they stayed pretty much where I placed them (being already quite snug). There's been the odd occasion where I've had to use a cam near the wide end of its range and I've extended it to stop it wandering, but that has been a rarity.

Given a choice I'd usually place a #2 in snug rather than a #1.5 quite loose, because if the #1.5 walked in far it could be hard to get fingers in to reach the trigger.