UKC

Anybody looked at pataclimb yet?

A 57 year old mystery solved?

In reply to Rick Graham:

Well one part of it at least. The comparison of the shots is pretty unequivocal, unlike Maestri's accounts of his time on the mountain. I hadn't been aware that there were six "missing" days in Maestri's account. The claimed first ascent of Cerro Torre was one of those things that you wanted to believe but somehow couldn't bring yourself to cast away the doubts.

I climbed on occasion with Alan Hepponstall who was the translator for the Mountain interview between Ken Wilson and Cesare Maestri. By all accounts it was "interesting" but Ken wasn't quite good enough to back Maestri in to a corner from which there was no escape. He (AH) was in little doubt that Maestri hadn't done it. A lot of the back story lays in the seemingly bitter in-fighting in Italian post war climbing. It would be great if Luca reappeared to provide some of this background.

I suppose pride is a dangerous thing in the mountains.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Very interesting, was Toni Egger in on the scam too, or maybe he thought it a training recce that went horribly wrong?

In reply to Rick Graham:

There was an article several years ago in Mountain IIRC by Bridewell, about his ascent, and in it he made comments about the volume and erratic nature of the bolting above the Col of Conquest, which suddenly ended.

When confronted with this, wasn't Maestri's defence that the summit mushroom in 59' came much lower down than it has in subsequent years?

In reply to Bob:
I also climbed with Alan on a few occasions (but a long time ago) & as you say, he was pretty convinced that Maestri hadn't climbed the route claimed. But I can't remember Alan saying much about the 'politics' although I think he lived in Italy for a while & would have been aware of what was going on (or have I misremembered that ?) .

In reply to Doug:

Pretty sure that Alan lived in Italy for a while, he was a professional translator.

Goucho: Did Bridwell go to the Col of Conquest? I thought he did the Compressor Route? According to Pataclimb it was Donini, Bragg and Wilson who first visited it http://www.pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/egger/american.ht... on the first ascent of Torre Egger.

In reply to Bob:


I thought there was much more than just one interview in Mountain about it. Didn't Ken do a whole feature about it, that pretty well demolished Maestri's claims?


… as a well-known proverb first told us many millennia ago.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I think it was just one interview but pretty well the whole edition of the magazine was taken up by it and supporting (Ken's view) articles.

Alan gave me a copy of the edition which I still have somewhere - need to get my blood pressure up!!

In reply to Bob:

I've got all those early Mountains somewhere up in the attic. I think they really deserve to be in a bookcase.

In reply to Bob:

I thought Maestri's line was the Compressor route, and went via the Col of Conquest?

I could well be wrong?

Bridewell did the South East Ridge - god I'm confused

In reply to Goucho:

Maestri 'claimed' another route before the compressor route

In reply to Rick Graham:



Cheers for that - fascinating stuff,


Chris

In reply to Goucho:

Maestri "did" two routes on Cerro Torre neither of which were without controversy.

His first attempt was in 1959 and headed for what Maestri called "The Col of Conquest" which lies between Cerros Torre and Egger. This name was chosen as a deliberate attack/snub at Walter Bonatti who had previously attempted the Torre gaining what his team called "The Col of Hope".

In 1970 he returned and climbed the SE ridge using a petrol driven compressor to place rather a lot of bolts. This route did not visit the summit - Maestri deliberately chose not to. Maestri also stripped part of the headwall to make it harder for repeat teams. The usual name for the SE ridge was thus "The Compressor Route" - the compressor itself was left hanging from the peak.

On this shot - http://www.pataclimb.com/images/climbingareas/chalten/torres/torre_E_01.jpg The SE Ridge/Compressor Route is #13 and Maestri's original line is roughly #1

In reply to Bob:





Thanks Bob. I was getting confused between Maestri's 2 routes.

So the article in Mountain I remembered about Bridewells ascent, was of the SE Ridge/Compressor route?

In reply to Goucho:
Yeah, Bridwell repeated the Compressor route, bringing his aid skills to bear where Maestri's bolt ladder ended on the headwall. Maestri by his own admission did not top out, and chopped the top of his own bolt ladder in descent.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Just started reading Kelly Cordes 'The Tower', looks to be an excellent history of the Cerro Torre controversy:

http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/the-tower-a-chronicle-of-climbing-and-c...

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Yes, Gordon, they do. They're pure gold.

Mick

In reply to Pedro50:

Have always imagined that it wasn't a deliberate scam, simply that Maestri and Egger went for it, things went horribly wrong and Maestri subsequently went into denial. When he came down, weren't his first words, "Toni, Toni, Toni"? Which, if so, is terribly sad and sounds like a man tormented by grief.

I can imagine that, if you twist the grief around (or it twists you around), you could could think that, if we'd done Cerrio Torre then Toni Egger wouldn't have died entirely in vain. So f*ck it, we did do it. And, once the claim is made, there's no way back - ever.

Surely they were good enough to have done it (in half-decent conditions)? But (Rich Simpson?) being good enough to do it and having actually done it may be two different things.

Whichever way you look at it, it's tragic.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:


Me too. These things rarely are, and almost never from the outset. More of a snowball effect beginning in one irreversible instant.


Back, no, but through, yes. Most fraudulent or highly suspect claims are never admitted to, the only exception I can think of being Christian Stangl fessing up to his K2 dream (which I admire him doing, btw). Maestri, Cesen, Ms. Oh, Mesili, Fred Cook and others seemingly have taken or will take the truth to the grave.


Again, the common theme.


Agreed. And at this point in time, mostly for Maestri.

In reply to Damo:

What to do? Maybe better to honour him as a great climber (he was) and let him go to his grave with his dignity as intact as it can be.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

I've always had trouble reconciling Maestri the Cerro Torre liar (for let's not mince words) and Maestri the modest and engaging speaker that came to Buxton in the mid-70s. He gave a lovely talk, didn't mention Cerro Torreand got a standing ovation (which were not usual in those days).
It was like 2 different people.

In reply to Mick Ward:


Setting a terrible precedent there, Mick - For God's Sake Think Of The Children!

But seriously, I think his lie overwhelms all else in his public/climbing life. His dishonesty and stab to the heart of climbing culture (trust etc) trumps his abilities at clambering up some Italian rocks 50 years ago. He's not 'great' in my eyes.

I understand the prison he must be trapped in, but with no mea culpa, no remorse or moves to help understanding, it's a bit tough to just let him off. We should forgive him, but we don't have to honour him.

When climbers lie: Hoaxes that fooled the vertical world

http://www.dailycamera.com/get-out/ci_25419649/when-climbers-lie-hoaxes-tha...

In reply to Damo:

Well I've often been told I have a surfeit of compassion!

As Peter says above (exactly as others have told me) he was honoured with a standing ovation at Buxton for his 'clambering', all those years ago. And remember, this was not long after the Compressor Route. Public climbing opinion was overwhelmingly against him. And there must have been some really hard-core Alpinists in the room.

I'm sure, as Peter says, post Cerro Torre, there were two faces to Maestri, the straight-up hard-core Alpinist and the tormented man in a prison of his own denial (like Tony Blair?) I can forgive Maestri but struggle to forgive Blair.

Agreed, lies are a stab to the heart of climbing culture. The 'game of games' depends upon us being rigorously honest even if (as often happens) we come out of things in a distinctly unflattering light.

As Nemesis the Warlock said, "Be pure. Be vigilant. Behave!"

Mick

In reply to Damo:


Whatever happened to Cesen? What a strange affair that was ...

And to the original subject of this post: what an excellent bit of detective work to locate the place where the photo in question was taken.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Cesen's son Ales is currently one of Slovenia's best young alpinists, done several good trips in recent years.

Yes, good detective work. Rolo must have looked at all those images so many times, it can be hard to actually 'see' a particular one sometimes, then something happens, some time away, some new input, something clicks and it all falls into place. You wonder how you ever saw it otherwise.

Of course, in this case, the idea of being a whole col away, and on the *other* side of the mountain, probably did not occur to anyone so did not figure as a possible location. In that sense, I think it shows just how much Maestri's story *was* accepted and no one could have imagined, even up to now apparently, the amount of truth omitted.

In reply to Damo:

The lie being bigger than what it was originally thought to be definitely leaves an uncomfortable feeling. I think originally there was a feeling "maybe it's a tribute to his partner". But now it doesn't really feel that way.
Mostly I, personally, feel sad and sorry for Maestri.
Like Mick, I feel quite differently about Blair. But I think that comparing Blair and Maestri insults the latter.
I can still see the wonderful shot of Maestri aiding across a roof and the camera panning back to show the scale of what he was doing. We all make mistakes and sometimes they can be very hard to live with

In reply to pneame:

Agree and I'll willingly take back any direct comparison. The only commonality I see is denial. But my overwhelming emotion for Maestri is compassion. And my overwhelming emotion for Blair is disgust, almost to the point of nausea.



Should have gone to Buxton. Everybody says it was extraordinary.



Too true. Too bloody true.

As the man said:

'...a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime.'

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

I always have to google your literary references - Whymper, yes, of course. Perfect. In multiple ways. But Nemesis the Warlock !!?? I hate to be a pedant (no I don't....) but that is Tomás de Torquemada according to the all-knowing Wikipedia. But 10/10 for obscure references, nevertheless. There is no hiding from the all-encompassing Wikipedia

In reply to pneame:

Dr Google and Frau Wiki, they'll run me to ground yet!

Peter, the problem is, as I once noted to John Cox (he was typically unsympathetic, as I recall) that, with advancing years and far, far too many 'Merlot moments', often I can't remember whether Wittgenstein said it, I said it or the landlord of The Strangler's (or should that be Stranglers - Gary, help me) Arms said it. And yes, I'm only too well aware this bodes ill for the future. ('And though we are not that which we were, that which we are, we are'. Oh God, it carries on, doubtless another misquote.)

You're absolutely correct about Torquemada. Nemesis and he both appeared in the cult comic 2000 AD and, as my mate Adam has told me before (he's read every issue - many times), I've got the two characters hopelessly mixed up. Sorry.

The other problem is that, as a writer ('Can't help it, the girl can't help it') I re-write stuff in my mind unconsciously, so that it becomes, 'The negligence of a moment may destroy the happiness of a lifetime.' Which, I think, scans better. But it's not what he wrote.

Waiting for the weather to improve, to leave all this wordiness behind (however temporarily) and do some (new) routes, 'cos as Dawes said, or as I probably erroneously think he said, 'The rock doesn't lie.'

Feel free to continue correcting me - though you may have a job on your hands!

Best wishes,

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

I am no wordsmith but was it not " look to every step lest it be your last " ?

In reply to Mick Ward:

As was also said by a wise man who left us far too early - "Better to be misquoted and misrepresented than missed out"*
So I wouldn't worry about it in the slightest.

*I use that one at least once a week. Which probably makes me a bit repetitious. Not a good sign

Cheers
Peter

In reply to Rick and Peter:

Think I'm getting hoist with me own petard here!

Going a bit stir crazy. Please, please, please let me climb something tomorrow...

'In this great future
we can forget the past.'

Mick

P.S. Yesterday a mate lent me 'The Seventh Grade'. Hadn't read it since it came out. Messner dryly notes of Cerro Torre that, after the Compressor route, 'it lost something of its charm.' He continues, 'Perhaps it might provide an incentive for the seventh grade'. Prophetic words.