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Went for my regular trog today which involves traversing a corner if grouse moor ( on permissive paths of course) I know of a bird trap nearby which I often release crows from. This morning, however, it had a crow and two buzzards in it. I let them go after taking photographs and a mile or so further on met a bloke with a rifle. Almost wished him a cheery "Good Buzzard"
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In reply to Dave the Rave:
You should probably let SNH know, or possibly local wildlife liaison police bod (if there is one, and if he isn't a member of the shoot himself) - I'm sure the argument is that it's a live trap and inadvertently caught raptors will be released, but cynical old me reckons you saved those birds from an unmarked grave.
You should probably let SNH know, or possibly local wildlife liaison police bod (if there is one, and if he isn't a member of the shoot himself) - I'm sure the argument is that it's a live trap and inadvertently caught raptors will be released, but cynical old me reckons you saved those birds from an unmarked grave.
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In reply to coinneach:
Buzzards are a protected species.
Your bird trap sounds a little suspicious because all the crow traps I know of around here are only used during spring and summer for various reasons.
The most common crow catcher is a letter box type trap maybe 7ft X7ftX7ft which is a large wire mesh trap square in shape with a 'letter box' entrance accessed from the 'roof' of the trap and wide at the top of the cage and narrowing as it goes further down. Crows etc., can get down it but cannot fly back out.
These often use a 'tame' crow/magpie to entice other crow birds into the trap. I'd guess the law allows for the fact that incidental catching of birds of prey but the keeper would be expected to release the bird of prey afterwards. However I doubt many would.
The trap should NOT be live baited with pidgeons or anything similiar. This IS illegal.
The police should have a local wildlife crimes bobby who'll be able to tell you or investigate whether the trap is or isn't illegal.
Buzzards are a protected species.
Your bird trap sounds a little suspicious because all the crow traps I know of around here are only used during spring and summer for various reasons.
The most common crow catcher is a letter box type trap maybe 7ft X7ftX7ft which is a large wire mesh trap square in shape with a 'letter box' entrance accessed from the 'roof' of the trap and wide at the top of the cage and narrowing as it goes further down. Crows etc., can get down it but cannot fly back out.
These often use a 'tame' crow/magpie to entice other crow birds into the trap. I'd guess the law allows for the fact that incidental catching of birds of prey but the keeper would be expected to release the bird of prey afterwards. However I doubt many would.
The trap should NOT be live baited with pidgeons or anything similiar. This IS illegal.
The police should have a local wildlife crimes bobby who'll be able to tell you or investigate whether the trap is or isn't illegal.
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In reply to toad:
I'm in Englandshire but I have reported it to the RSPB and since I'm on holiday this week and it's only a couple of miles from home I'll be having a wee look. I actually know the land owner and he's an ok bloke ( won't allow hare coursing ) but I wouldn't trust a keeper any day!
I'm in Englandshire but I have reported it to the RSPB and since I'm on holiday this week and it's only a couple of miles from home I'll be having a wee look. I actually know the land owner and he's an ok bloke ( won't allow hare coursing ) but I wouldn't trust a keeper any day!
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In reply to coinneach:
drop a note to this lot.
http://raptorpolitics.org.uk/
Should be able to help point you the right way.
ps. good job.
drop a note to this lot.
http://raptorpolitics.org.uk/
Should be able to help point you the right way.
ps. good job.
Post edited at 20:36
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In reply to coinneach:
intended to post this when I read it - a good summary of the current situation
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jan/13/-sp-mystery-of-the-missi...
intended to post this when I read it - a good summary of the current situation
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jan/13/-sp-mystery-of-the-missi...
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In reply to coinneach:
100% with you on releasing the Buzzard, but don't let a shepherd catch you releasing Crows in the run up to lambing.. Crows will eviscerate a lamb and remove it's eyes and tail leaving it alive.
> Went for my regular trog today which involves traversing a corner if grouse moor ( on permissive paths of course) I know of a bird trap nearby which I often release crows from. This morning, however, it had a crow and two buzzards in it. I let them go after taking photographs and a mile or so further on met a bloke with a rifle. Almost wished him a cheery "Good Buzzard"
100% with you on releasing the Buzzard, but don't let a shepherd catch you releasing Crows in the run up to lambing.. Crows will eviscerate a lamb and remove it's eyes and tail leaving it alive.
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In reply to toad:
That's a very good and balanced article, good to read something that isn't completely biased to one side or the other.
That's a very good and balanced article, good to read something that isn't completely biased to one side or the other.
In reply to timjones:
Do you mean all crows will 'eviscerate a lamb and remove its eyes and tail'?
Or are you saying this only sometimes happens?
Do you mean all crows will 'eviscerate a lamb and remove its eyes and tail'?
Or are you saying this only sometimes happens?
In reply to Dave Perry:
God only knows
I don't know every crow by it's name!
Silly question IMO.
There is a huge and growing population of the damn things and as that population grows the problem gets worse..
> Do you mean all crows will 'eviscerate a lamb and remove its eyes and tail'?
> Or are you saying this only sometimes happens?
God only knows
I don't know every crow by it's name!
Silly question IMO.
There is a huge and growing population of the damn things and as that population grows the problem gets worse..
Post edited at 12:23
In reply to timjones:
Its not a silly question.
I work in the countryside. North York Moors NP = lots of sheep farmers. I often speak to farmers and they will tell you about sheep attacking lambs. However, when asked if they've ever seen it happen then the answer is never. One or two I've spoken two have seen newborn lambs with their eyes gone but did not see how/what happened.
I'm not saying it does not happen but I doubt very much whether it happens as much as we/farmers think it does..
Ewes are quite protective when their lambs are newly born. Finding a lamb with its eyes pecked out may also mean the lamb was still born and the crow fed after the lamb was dead and after the mother lost interest in it.
As for crows gaining access to the stomach cavity? I'm not sure. I've worked in areas where their are large populations of ravens (Shetlands) and it was obvious that any dead sheep/lamb was soon reduced to bones. I've never noticed this in areas where there are only crows.
As for there being 'too many' crows. Well thats a matter of opinion really.
Its not a silly question.
I work in the countryside. North York Moors NP = lots of sheep farmers. I often speak to farmers and they will tell you about sheep attacking lambs. However, when asked if they've ever seen it happen then the answer is never. One or two I've spoken two have seen newborn lambs with their eyes gone but did not see how/what happened.
I'm not saying it does not happen but I doubt very much whether it happens as much as we/farmers think it does..
Ewes are quite protective when their lambs are newly born. Finding a lamb with its eyes pecked out may also mean the lamb was still born and the crow fed after the lamb was dead and after the mother lost interest in it.
As for crows gaining access to the stomach cavity? I'm not sure. I've worked in areas where their are large populations of ravens (Shetlands) and it was obvious that any dead sheep/lamb was soon reduced to bones. I've never noticed this in areas where there are only crows.
As for there being 'too many' crows. Well thats a matter of opinion really.
Post edited at 13:20
In reply to timjones:
To be fair, as the crow flew out of the cage I did say "I'm letting you go this time Russell, but if I catch you eviscerating any lambs then you're straight back in the slammer! Capisce?"
To be fair, as the crow flew out of the cage I did say "I'm letting you go this time Russell, but if I catch you eviscerating any lambs then you're straight back in the slammer! Capisce?"
2
In reply to Dave Perry:
I've seen the crows stood over still living newborn lambs whilst their mother runs back and forth trying to work out which of her twins to protect. It does happen and it's on the increase around here as the population rises. The worrying thing is that last year it happened in the sheds for the first time. We're seeing a huge increase in the corvid population around here year after year, I'm not one for shooting everything in sight but it needs dealing with.
> Its not a silly question.
> I work in the countryside. North York Moors NP = lots of sheep farmers. I often speak to farmers and they will tell you about sheep attacking lambs. However, when asked if they've ever seen it happen then the answer is never. One or two I've spoken two have seen newborn lambs with their eyes gone but did not see how/what happened.
> I'm not saying it does not happen but I doubt very much whether it happens as much as we/farmers think it does..
> Ewes are quite protective when their lambs are newly born. Finding a lamb with its eyes pecked out may also mean the lamb was still born and the crow fed after the lamb was dead and after the mother lost interest in it.
> As for crows gaining access to the stomach cavity? I'm not sure. I've worked in areas where their are large populations of ravens (Shetlands) and it was obvious that any dead sheep/lamb was soon reduced to bones. I've never noticed this in areas where there are only crows.
> As for there being 'too many' crows. Well thats a matter of opinion really.
I've seen the crows stood over still living newborn lambs whilst their mother runs back and forth trying to work out which of her twins to protect. It does happen and it's on the increase around here as the population rises. The worrying thing is that last year it happened in the sheds for the first time. We're seeing a huge increase in the corvid population around here year after year, I'm not one for shooting everything in sight but it needs dealing with.
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In reply to coinneach:
You've definitely done the wrong thing if you've released Russell, he's a real bad 'un
Seriously. I don't know the situation where you have been doing this but think carefully about releasing Crows, you may just have a seriously detrimental effect on someone elses livelihood. I'd don't do a lot of shooting or trapping of anything. When I do it is for a good reason and I would be seriously pissed off if some busybody felt that they had the right to interfere with the process.
> To be fair, as the crow flew out of the cage I did say "I'm letting you go this time Russell, but if I catch you eviscerating any lambs then you're straight back in the slammer! Capisce?"
You've definitely done the wrong thing if you've released Russell, he's a real bad 'un
Seriously. I don't know the situation where you have been doing this but think carefully about releasing Crows, you may just have a seriously detrimental effect on someone elses livelihood. I'd don't do a lot of shooting or trapping of anything. When I do it is for a good reason and I would be seriously pissed off if some busybody felt that they had the right to interfere with the process.
In reply to timjones:
Hats off to the RSPB though, they've already been in contact and given sound advice.
Hats off to the RSPB though, they've already been in contact and given sound advice.
In reply to coinneach:
At least one gamekeeper I know around here uses a magpie as 'bait' for other members of the crow family. I was surprised when he told me that people often release it from the traps (letter box or larsen traps). I asked him how he knew thats what happens.
He surprised me when he told me the magpie was tame and everytime he released, or someone else did from the trap, it it simply flew back to his house!!!
At least one gamekeeper I know around here uses a magpie as 'bait' for other members of the crow family. I was surprised when he told me that people often release it from the traps (letter box or larsen traps). I asked him how he knew thats what happens.
He surprised me when he told me the magpie was tame and everytime he released, or someone else did from the trap, it it simply flew back to his house!!!
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In reply to Dave Perry:
I've never know crows to gut a lamb but I have known them to peck the eyeballs out of live lambs (Scottish Central Belt) wouldn't say often but not uncommon. It may tend to happen in very hot weather when the lambs aren't as active - That was the opinion of the old Shepard boy in the village anyway.
I've never know crows to gut a lamb but I have known them to peck the eyeballs out of live lambs (Scottish Central Belt) wouldn't say often but not uncommon. It may tend to happen in very hot weather when the lambs aren't as active - That was the opinion of the old Shepard boy in the village anyway.
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In reply to coinneach:
Did their advice on releasing crows include the phrase "aggravated trespass"
> Don't listen to people on climbing forums
Did their advice on releasing crows include the phrase "aggravated trespass"
In reply to Dave Perry:
Known as a Judas bird!
> He surprised me when he told me the magpie was tame and everytime he released, or someone else did from the trap, it it simply flew back to his house!!!
Known as a Judas bird!
In reply to timjones:
I was going to ask 'source, please', but it's pretty clear from this:
http://www.bto.org/birdtrends2010/wcrcarcr.shtml
Looks like population has increased by 2.5x since 1965.
Interesting that fledgling count is increasing, from about 2 in 1965 to 3.4 in 2010. And laying date getting earlier. Which I guess means more of the fledglings survive, since they have a longer season to prepare for winter.
> There is a huge and growing population of the damn things and as that population grows the problem gets worse
I was going to ask 'source, please', but it's pretty clear from this:
http://www.bto.org/birdtrends2010/wcrcarcr.shtml
Looks like population has increased by 2.5x since 1965.
Interesting that fledgling count is increasing, from about 2 in 1965 to 3.4 in 2010. And laying date getting earlier. Which I guess means more of the fledglings survive, since they have a longer season to prepare for winter.
In reply to timjones:
In mid Wales corvids are also a serious sheep problem, many times when I've been up on the hills I've found crows or ravens on live sheep. If a ewe becomes mislaid (stuck on its back) the corvids are quickly there, out with its eyes and into the soft belly for intestines, not pleasant.
Corvids are intelligent and long lived, once they learn this they are on the look out for any opportunity, farmers report them hanging around lambing ewes and going in for the newborn lamb - once killed it is all bird food! Very adaptable birds and very bad news in some areas, I have no problems with reducing their numbers.
In mid Wales corvids are also a serious sheep problem, many times when I've been up on the hills I've found crows or ravens on live sheep. If a ewe becomes mislaid (stuck on its back) the corvids are quickly there, out with its eyes and into the soft belly for intestines, not pleasant.
Corvids are intelligent and long lived, once they learn this they are on the look out for any opportunity, farmers report them hanging around lambing ewes and going in for the newborn lamb - once killed it is all bird food! Very adaptable birds and very bad news in some areas, I have no problems with reducing their numbers.
In reply to toad:
Cannot be SNH as the OP was on "permissive " tracks, but wherever it was, buzzards should not be in Larsen traps.
Cannot be SNH as the OP was on "permissive " tracks, but wherever it was, buzzards should not be in Larsen traps.
Post edited at 21:01
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In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
As it transpired, wasn't even in Scotland!
> Cannot be SNH as the OP was on "permissive " tracks, but wherever it was, buzzards should not be in Larsen traps.
As it transpired, wasn't even in Scotland!
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:
Unfortunately buzzards and other birds go into Larsen traps, you simply let them go again (hopefully). I have the same problems with my squirrel traps, everything else released unharmed.
> Cannot be SNH as the OP was on "permissive " tracks, but wherever it was, buzzards should not be in Larsen traps.
Unfortunately buzzards and other birds go into Larsen traps, you simply let them go again (hopefully). I have the same problems with my squirrel traps, everything else released unharmed.
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