UKC

So after my mortgage question which everyone was very helpful on (thanks), now we have put in an offer and now wondering what sort of survey.

House is 100+ years old, mid terrace in Peakdale Derbyshire. Its limestone built very similar to this http://tinyurl.com/o5rqhro

Everything inside looks sound to me and looks well cared for..

Sp should we go for a valuation survey, homebuyers survey or a full building survey?

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

On a property more than 100 years I would be tempted with a full survey, especially if it has signs of cracking, damp or other issues. I dont think that area has a history of mining so subsidence might not be an problem. Home buyers at a minimum.

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

There has been a few threads on this. My advice, having bought a couple of years ago, would be to get the minimum that you need for the mortgage (valuation) and then get a separate survey if you do decide to get one – don’t upgrade through the mortgage lender. Ours was basically useless – didn’t check anything above a certain height, missed damp, missed leaking guttering (despite it raining when the survey was done), but did tell us where the nearest shops were. I think with a private survey you could direct it a bit toward potential problems specific to that property and then ask questions afterwards. Ours fell on very deaf ears, going through the bank.

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
I would go for a full building survey for a house that old to find what's lurking undercover eg wood worm ,rot in roof , flashing faulty etc some surveys are not thorough. Here in Scotland the seller has to provide a survey and it recommends items that need looking at, which gives you chance to correct things before you put the house on the market. As a buyer down there I would get a good full survey done, so you know what expenses may crop up.
Don't forget a Radon survey there.

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

I've never seen the point in a "homebuyers survey" - there's nothing in them a moderately capable and informed person can't spot themselves. There's some damp, or there's a crack in a wall etc. It's got light switches. The wiring is old. The plumbing sucks.

But why is there damp? Why is the wall cracked? That's where a full survey comes in - and understanding the why is important to understanding the risk, and what to do.

I've had structural surveys through two different surveyors. Without going in to details - talk around and make sure you get a good recommendation. If you know anyone who has bought and is recommending, ask if they mind you looking through their survey. It'll give you an idea of the sort of attention/detail level and approach of the surveyor.

To get a full survey, or not? That's a very individual choice based on your approach to risk, and how attached you are to your money, and how much you can spare. With a mid-terrace, if the whole terrace was built as one you could do worse than this... Look for some others nearby that are in ostensibly good nick and call by with some biscuits and ask the residents what if any remedial action they've had to take.

Edit: To give an idea of where a survey has been useful to me - we have been considering old stone properties, and the surveyor has helped us to understand the ways in which the walls become porous over time - and the signs of this - that allow water into structural timbers, without showing as damp due to an inner damp proof course. Not being allowed to poke holes through it all he can't tell us if the timbers are rotten, but I found an informed estimate of the situation to be useful.

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

The home buyers survey is a waste of money. It doesn't check the loft, under the floorboards or gas or electrical stuff so is basically not worth the paper it is written on. Full structural surveys can often be dubious. They use dubious arse covering phrases like "The roof construction is of wood and may contain wood worm." which in my opinion is of little use to anyone. Does it have wood worm or not? For a mid terrace, if it has been around for 100 years, it is probably good to trot, but it might be worth looking around very carefully. Look in corners for signs that mold has been washed away (damp) and also ask to see in the loft - that sort of thing.

The decision is yours!

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
I'm fairly risk averse so I'd go for a full survey. It's worth hundreds of thousands of pounds to you so you want to know about any issues - rot, subsidence, damp, etc. Then you know if the property is actually not worth the price you're paying for it, or if you're going to have to do any major work... or most likely you'll have the peace of mind that you're all fine!

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

I bought six months ago a stone built house in New Mills, Derbyshire, approx 120 years old. I went for the home buyers survey because I wanted the heads up on the things I might have to sort out when I moved in, to get an idea of costs and start to line up in my head the priorities. It did pick up things I wouldn't have, like the vertical joint between main house and the kitchen / bathroom bit being possibly a bit inadequate. He clearly did go down into the cellar and check out the joists there, and did spot bits and bobs I wouldn't have. Gave a clear indication that the electrics would need attention, although mostly it was a suggestion of get an electrical survey. It's a solid stone building, it's not going anywhere soon, and I knew that, but the other points were worth knowing. The house has been rewired and building work is ongoing ...

In reply to joan cooper:


A full survey won't necessarily cover all those things as they tend not be a destructive survey i.e. the surveryor isn't usually allowed to start ripping holes in the walls etc to check for these things - in our case he just mentioned that we'd be wise to get these checked out by an other company to eliminate such issues.

To the OP, I'd just pay a local builder a few hours of his time to come and look around at the the property. A good builder will have a good idea of what to llok out for and he'll be able to give you idea of how much things that need repairing will cost you - A surveyor won't.

There's no guarantee they surveyor will pick up anything as things like Dry rot can lay dormant until you move in and start disturbing things.

In reply to Nick Harvey:


Excellent advice. If after getting the mortgage valuation, find your own surveyor, and chat through with them, before they do it, the points that really worry you. Find out exactly what their Building Survey (it's no longer called a Structural Survey) will cover?

Actually a Home Buyer Survey should cover the same ground (with includes roof structure), it's just the depth of reporting which is less extensive than for a Building Survey. Unfortunately too many "surveyors" employed by Lenders lack the competence and experience to do either a Homebuyer or Building Survey thoroughly - a very sad reflection on my old profession.

Do NOT get the bank/buiding society staff valuer to do it as an add on. You need someone local, independent and well experienced.

Trangia (retired Chartered Surveyor - Indpendent from Lenders)

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

From my experience with a 113 year old house. All the nasties I've found, and I've had a good few (dry rot, woodworm, dodgy drains, dodgy foundations), have only been found when serious work has been undertaken. Ie. I only discovered the dry rot in the roof when I pulled the bathroom ceiling down to do another job and I and only discovered the woodworm in the bathroom floor when I lifted the floor to do some plumbing.
No vendor is ever going to let you do this before buying the house and it would have been entirely useless to have anyone come around and look for these things without doing this.

If there is any evidence of something then get it checked out but otherwise you could spend thousands testing everything about the place and find nothing only to find something the next time you have some work done which disrupts the area in question.

This advice obviously doesn't cover searches that you'd normally get done as part of your conveyancing ie. land registry, mining, water, chancel repair (I was advised to just go for insurance rather than the search as it's about the same price), radon (if needed). most of these are so cheap that you'd be daft not to.

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

Waste of time.

Get a plumber to check the drains and boiler and a builder to check the roof and structure. A lot offer this service now. Basically a professional look and opinion of the expensive bits.

Cheers

Toby

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

Full.

And be prepared to walk away and write the cost off.

What % of the money you are about to commit does it represent?

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

We had to walk away from our first purchase because of subsidence. It was noted as a potential issue on the building survey we commissioned and, as we'd got the survey done through the bank, had a full retention on the mortgage offer until we had a structural survey done. We ended up paying £500 for a structural survey (on top of the £600 for the original survey) and they reported back subsidence caused by a blocked drain. With that report the house effectively became un-mortgagable.

We had no choice but to walk away, but it turns out that the guy selling the house, who had only bought it two years prior, had only got a builder round to look around the house when he bought it, and the warning signs flagged by our surveyor had actually been written off by his builder as a non-issue.

For the peace of mind you'll get and the potential cost involved with a major structural issue, I'd go with a full survey every time. I'd also second the advice from others on the forum of getting a survey independent of your bank, so that you are getting a surveyor who is working only for you and is willing to be more open in their advice.

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

Basic survey through lender. And a separate Full survey. Don't get a lenders full survey.

Oli

In reply to bouldery bits:



What's a "lender's full survey"?

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

Some conflicting advice here. Bottom line, it's built of solid limestone and if it has no obvious visible cracks is not about to fall down any time soon. A surveyor will only tell you what he can see and what might be there where he can't see. Any survey will have caveats like there could be rot present in timbers blah de blah. He's getting easy money for a quick walk around a house. My advice would be to get the home buyers survey and take a second viewing ( or third viewing). The home buyers survey may find something you didn't think of and they don't cost the earth. Take a good look at the places where water might get in, i.e gutters and eaves, ridges, chimney flashing, window sills and the first few courses above ground. Is there any major staining, if so is it apparent on the inside too? Can it be easily fixed like a gutter joint or would it be a pain in the ass like replacing joists. Building surveying is not rocket science and is generally about having a good look and thinking about what caused what you're looking at, what could happen in future and what could have happened that is hidden from view. Major problems generally come down to water ingress, movement of the building/ ground, or knackered heating system.

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

Ah well, you always hope for a consensus but we will have to make a decision by Monday so as not to hold things up.

Call back for topics on: removal vans, gardening, fitting wood burners and arguing over which kitchen cupboard stores what.

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

I had a full survey done on a flat I was going to buy. They did find dry rot in the timber in the attic and also come old timber in the loft with wood worm and found problems with damp and a rotten lintel. I pulled out of that purchase. I've just had another survey done on a flat and they pointed out a few potential problems, e.g. the extraction fan in the bathroom had been directed into the loft rather than to the outside of the building and a couple of other problems. They also quoted what they thought were realistic prices to get the problems fixed. Got some money off my initial offer because of it. So from my experience I'd recommend having a full survey done. They aren't very expensive when you think about the price of the house/flat

In reply to andy:

Lenders often offer a range of "surveys"

1.Basic Valuation. This is to ensure that the property is basically sound and that the value is correct. Some Lenders don't disclose this to the purchaser because it is essentially for their own use, but many do disclose it. Unfortunately too many borrowers regard it as a "survey" which it isn't. Having said that valuers owe a duty of care to both the lender and the borrower, and because they are professionally qualified they are expected to conform to a minimum standard of competence. If they miss a defect which is obvious they can be held liable. There is case law to support this and borrowers have succesfully sued valuers in the past for loss incurred even though there is no contract between them and the valuer. Just what "is obvious " is a grey area and borrowers would be ill advised to rely on just the mortgage valuation.

2. Homebuyer Report. This is a concise report highlighting defects in a property. It is not a Full Building Survey, however I have always believed that anyone carrying out such a survey should have the same level of training and competence as a Surveyor undertaking a Full Building Survey. The reason for this is that whilst the Homebuyer is a concise report, the word "concise" refers to the extent of reporting, NOT the extent of investigation whilst on site. OK some things are specifically excluded from the report and the Terms and Conditions of the report make this quite clear to both parties. However fundamental structural defects eg subsidence, woodborer, damp, rot , defective guttering etc etc are not specifically excluded, and the Homebuyer Surveyor is expected to investigate and comment on such matters.

Comment with a view to further investigation is sufficient, as all the report is required to do is to draw attention to the existence of such matters, or the strong likelyhood of their being present. Eg "The house has a timber roof structure so it's probable that it will have woodworm - get a Timber Specialist Report" is useless defensive reporting and not doing the client any favours.

On the other hand "Evidence of active woodborer fligjht holes was found in the roof timbers. The floors were carpeted and couldn't be inspected, but it is likely that the infestation will have spread - get a Timber Specialist Report on the roof timbers to include a provisional quote for treating the floors as well if necessary. once carpets have been removed" is constructive and helpful to the buyer.

3. A full Building Survey. This is a bestoke in depth survey of the srtucture and the terms and extent are agreed between the buyer and surveyor in advance.

Now a "lenders full survey" is where the lender offers or persuades the borrower to have either a homebuyer or full building survey carried out by THEIR surveyor at the same time as the mortgage valuation. It might look like a convenient financial package but the borrower rarely has any choice as to who that surveyor will be or will know nothing about their competence or experience, particularly local experience and knowledge.

In my experience many staff valuers for lenders have tended to exhibit a poor level of competence when it comes to carrying out either a homebuyer or full buiilding survey. Of course there are also incompetent independent surveyors, but at least you can research their track record locally by speaking to local professionals like solicitors who use them and call and meet them prior to instructing them.

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

My two penneth - whether a builder looking round or a full (independent) survey do invest some money in this as a) they may well tell you something you didn't spot and didn't think about that, this could make you change your mind about buying the place b) hopefully you'll have some idea of where you are going to be spending money in the future rather than unwelcome suprises. We had an offer in on a place that would have been a complete disaster had we bought it - the surveyor said in not so many words "Well I can't tell you not to buy it but for god's sake don't buy it".

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

I would use a surveyor that has been recommended, don't rely on who your mortgage provider gets.

Do not bother with a homebuyer's survery or anything more than a basic, compulsory valuation from your lender.

You want to make the decision based on the merits of your risk assessment and not on the merits of the lender's assessment or the lender withholding money or imposing conditions. The lender will get to see a copy of anything they arrange.

As an examples:

I didn't buy house "A": the lender was perfectly happy with based on their survey but a full structural survey I got condemned it as an extremely unwise purchase (BTW all written surveys involve a lot of arse covering - speak to the surveyor for an honest and meaningful appraisal - this is something you can't get from an HB report).

I did buy a house "B" which had a useless homebuyers report - the report was hugely simplistic and inaccurate and the lender tried to withhold money for an error in the report (something that the report never actually examined). The report itself was a complete waste of money: "If the electrical installation is over 5 years old or not certificated by a qualified electrician it should be checked".

I would strongly recommend:
* looking at everything yourself with a friendly and competent builder.
* visiting again with another experience homebuyer to look at the situation, roads, schools, area etc in a dispassionate way.
* visiting at the weekend, weekdays, morning and evening
* talking to neighbours
* getting hold of other people's surveys (even for different houses as a check list)
* asking a 1000 questions of the vendor's / vendor's solicitors (they can't lie to you) - ask about rot, ask about nuisance, ask about damp etc etc, has another sale fallen through? was a survey done? does it flood?

If you have serious doubt about something then get a proper survey (expensive) or walk away. The bottom line you need to make the decision is either "can I live with this?" or "how much to fix it?".

The huge cost of the survey I "wasted" on the house I didn't buy was money very well spent but unnecessary for many purchases.

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
A good surveyor will of course have an understanding of the construction of the property of the type you're looking to buy and any issues to look out for. The trouble may be finding that good surveyor. If you are looking for a building surveyor local to the property try the RICS and the find a surveyor section on their website, I'm not sure how good it is or how comprehensive a listing is on it, but I get a number of people emailing me who are looking to move into the village I live in and wanting me to do a survey for them. Buy the way the enhanced bigger adverts/entries on the find a surveyor will, as in most things in life, represent those that have paid an additional fee for the bigger ad/banner. I have turned the enquiries away as I only do specialist valuation work in the commercial property world.

As someone else has said, discovering issues isn't rocket science, but requires a methodical approach when doing the inspection, what your looking for is someone to advise on remedies and costs. Hence if you can find a good one the older local guy working for himself may be the best bet.

As for @rse covering yes it does happen but then that's not surprising seeing the litigious world we live in and that the first person to be sued is the poor old surveyor both by client and/or bank and/or purchaser. And many surveyors have stepped away from this work because the risk of this and the cost of their professional indemnity insurance makes it impossible to earn any money.

Best of luck.

But they can, and will (or should) refuse to answer any question which is capable of being answered by survey, search or personal inspection.

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

I pretty much agree with what has been said regarding the basic valuation from the lender and instruct independent advice if you think its required.

We instructed the lenders survey company who were doing the basic valuation to carry out the building survey, which was a mistake as the problems identified were then written into the mortgage agreement. In theory we had 6months to get the problems fix under the terms of the mortgage - although this was never checked. Also if high damp readings or signs of potential structure issues are present - ie cracks which you get a lot of in old houses whenever the weather changes it seems! then further investigation is required ie damp survey / structural survey - all stipulated again under the mortgage terms

As we are selling the house now and had the basic valuers around last week I'm pretty convinced that of the 5mins the guy spent in the house, mostly asking me the questions which make up the basic report, none of the problems would have been noted - and certainly not included under the mortgage agreement.

As we buy our second house unless anything stuck out that required further investigation I will get a basic valuation for the lender, and would consider an independent survey for peace of mind - though the reports are worded in such a way they are anything but that, seemed to give us more things to worry/think about- but would also consider missing out the survey and go straight for structual / damp is signs were obvious.

As someone said these surveys can get you a bit more money off the house if anything is found.- though in our experience not as much as you need to fix said problem!

Good luck. Buying a house sucks but the stress is quickly forgot about once you move in - until the real problems that none of these great reports ever picked up rear there ugly head and cost you a fortune.

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

Whether its worth it or not completely depends on whether you think you have room to negotiate with the seller. A survey is likely to throw up a few minor things (anything major is probably evident from your own viewing). So do you negotiate on price to fix these things and risk losing the purchase?

Our own experience from the London Market of 13/14: It was a madhouse sellers market, with loads of buyers desperate to have their offer accepted. if you started to mess about it was onto the next in line. I think already the market has changed, so may be worth it.

In reply to gazhbo:
"But they can, and will (or should) refuse to answer any question which is capable of being answered by survey, search or personal inspection"

If they refuse to answer a question they are still giving you an answer...

Q Are there disputes with your neighbours?
A Yes | No | No answer

Q Is there any problem with damp ?
A Yes | No | No answer

Read into it what you will!

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

Lots of people here saying ‘don’t get a surveyor round, get a local builder instead’ – but it’s not an either or – I did both and both chaps had good input. For me it’s a no brainer getting a full survey esp on a house that old. But – get an independent one from your mortgage company as has been said, and don’t just go with a national firm. They will spend a few hours on your place, meaning a cursory look in the loft etc and resulting in the arsey-covering comments people have noted. Instead get a good local chap who will spend as long as it needs. Mine recently spent several hours in the loft alone with pictures and descriptions of all structural points, where the wood worm had been, where it wasn’t, what to do about it etc. got my builder to quote for remedial work recommended (some of which he’d picked up on himself, some he hadn’t) survey cost me £650, got £7K off the previously agreed asking price.

Another negative point against a national chain of surveyors is that as well as spending just a couple of hours in a house, they dictate it all into a recorder, file gets emailed to India and type dup there. My surveyor wanted to do it all himself to get the wording just as he wanted. Plus he was VAT free so one of the cheaper quotes!

Obviously makes a big difference to what surveyor can do if house is lived in by unhelpful types and full of heavy furniture. And of course they can never knock holes in things etc, you can’t eliminate every element of risk. But they should be able to give as good an idea as is humanly possible as to the state of the place.

In the end you pays your money you takes your choice – just think about how much the cost of the survey compared to the repayment value of the mortgage. In a slow market with no pressure on your side to move, I don’t know why you wouldn’t. In crazy London markets you’d probably just lose the sale but for regular types it’s time and money well spent that will likely pay for itself.

Err'd on the side of caution and have gone for a building full survey.