UKC

Scottish winter crags becoming a mess of fixed gear, pegs, etc

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 Jon Bracey 06 Feb 2015
I'm just home after spending 6 days climbing up on Ben Nevis and in Glencoe, and despite having an awesome time with great conditions and weather, on most routes I found a big mess of fixed gear, and abseil stations. I've hardly climbed in Scotland during the last 11 years and I don't recollect much of this from my distant memories. Scabbard Chimney, in Stob corrie nan lochain in particular was a right mess.
I'm sure local guides are responsible for some of the abseil stations...? Although convenient, for me it really changes the feel of the routes and should be avoided whenever possible. Would be great if everyone could do there best to remove stuck pieces and cut off fixed tatt where possible. The mountains of Scotland are an amazing resource of world class winter climbing and I think everything possible should be done to keep them clean.
In reply to Jon Bracey:

A bit confused here. I've Just returned from Cogne which is also a word class winter climbing destination. Why are bolted belays/abseil stations accepted there but a bit of cord around a block is not ok here? Discuss.
4
OP Jon Bracey 06 Feb 2015
In reply to cannichoutdoors:

The established ethics of the mountain crags of the UK, are against fixed protection and belays.
1
 Simon Caldwell 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Jon Bracey:

How much tat did you remove?
OP Jon Bracey 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I didn't count up, but many meters of tatt and half a dozen pegs- it all went in the bin
1
In reply to Jon Bracey:
Is tat really fixed pro as it is easily removed?
Post edited at 20:06
 Aigen 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Jon Bracey:

I agree with Jon. When I place a piece of tat I always remove the old stuff.
 Rick Graham 06 Feb 2015
In reply to Aigen:

> I agree with Jon. When I place a piece of tat I always remove the old stuff.

I don't think that Jon agrees with you.

Got the impression he prefers no fixed gear and abseil points at all.
In reply to Jon Bracey: Good points.

I've done my bit and removed several pieces of tat in the last few weeks, although I've generally left the tidier rope anchors in place.
In reply to Jon Bracey:
> The established ethics of the mountain crags of the UK, are against fixed protection and belays.

True. But you were able to remove tat and pegs. So they weren't fixed. Fixed in my book means bolts or chains etc. I don't have an issue at all with pegs or tat. If they help people by providing safety on ascent or descent,I want them left there.Slippery slope argument does not apply here-I don't agree sith bolts/chains on UK mountains- but don't think that "no fixed gear" should extend to removing pegs and tat.

You say above "for me it really changes the feel of the route"....maybe consider other people?! for some it provides much needed security and confidence.
Post edited at 09:47
3
 Rich W Parker 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Jon Bracey:

I agree with you in certain respects. Abseil station hotspots are on average never going to be tat free, which I find particularly ironic given our clean ethic! Which is more sympathetic and safe, a rotting tat cluster or well placed rings? It's a bit of a nonsense; a lot of it is in situ tat belay which is totally unnecessary, as opposed to retreat tat.
At the inevitable rap stations I favour a regular change out of tat to keep it clean(er), as Cyberpunk stated. In an ideal world people find it clean and leave clean.

I'm pretty sure that not much of the mountain tat is not placed by people working, different story at typical training/teaching crags.
 Andy Moles 07 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

What's the difference in effect between it being 'fixed' and 'not fixed', if you say it should stay there anyway?

In my mind, tat is what you carry in case you have to bail out - it's an emergency measure, not something you expect to find as default on belays. It's also potentially not safe at all - I've spent a while in some spots sorting through the mess of slings and crabs trying to work out what is actually attached and equalised to what, only to find that it just sort of...isn't. Some places it is a right mess - top of Titan's Wall for example.





In reply to Andy Moles:
You are conflating two issues here,placing tat (for emergency) and using pre-existing tat. I agree,placing tat, it is (sometimes) an emergency measure. I say "sometimes"as not every decision to bail is an emergency. But that does not mean using tat placed beforehand is an emergency measure.I never said anything about expecting it as default nor do I think that. I think it is right to clear tat if it is looking unsafe,but not right to clear it because you think it is in conflict with UK mountain ethics,which it is not clearly in conflict with! Of course novices or anyone else using it needs to make a judgment on how safe it is.
Post edited at 10:48
 Robert Durran 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Jon Bracey:

We should obviously all make the effort to remove abandoned abseil tat, jammed nuts and pegs a second couldn't get out whenever possible. None of this is fixed gear; it is just abandoned (inevitably in the case if abseil tat). Fixed peg belays where nothing else are available are different since repeated removal could destroy the placements. I would have thought the only controversy should be about the "fixed" abseil points merely for convenience such as those at the top of Savage Slit (actually not at the top) or for descending from Scabbard Chimney, though, even if it is accepted that they are here to stay, they should certainly be tidied up.
 Webster 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Jon Bracey:

A vigilante removal of pegs and tat in most peoples minds will be just as unacceptable as its existence in the first place is in your mind!

pegs have always been a part of brittish trad climbing, particularly winter. The constant replacement and removal of them is far more damaging than leaving them in situ (in situ does not mean 'fixed', I despise bolting and am glad our mountains remain bolt free).

I agree tat should be removed and replaced regularly (at least every season) to keep it tidy and more importantly safe, but removing it completely can be counter productive as it will create more wear of other placements.

I am less comfortable with the idea of fixed absail stations purely for convenience, whats wrong with just walking round like everyone else?

of course you will find more in situ gear now than a decade or so ago purely from the increase in traffic, combigned with the cumulative effect. but im sure in situ belays etc were just as much a part of climbing 100 years ago as they are today.
1
 Wry Gob 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Webster:

"constant replacement and removal of them is far more damaging than leaving them in situ"

Eh? I always thought the normal approach was for the second man on the rope to take them out?!

Jon is quite right - there are certain places on certain popular routes where the extent of in-situ gear is becoming ugly, infringing and in some cases just plain dangerous. However I'd strongly suggests this issue is far from exclusive to winter climbs / climbers. On the contrary I'd argue it's just as bad if not worse on some summer climbs.

Rob is also quite right - it's up to seconds to make an effort, both to strip what their leader has placed and anything else that's been left previously by other parties.

I'm sorry but the idea that leaving old rotting pegs and tat somehow makes things safer for other climbers in future is just a pile of pish! If people can't protect themselves - when they're climbing, or in descent - then they should perhaps think twice about going climbing at all.

Cheers, Guy
1
"If people can't protect themselves - when they're climbing, or in descent - then they should perhaps think twice about going climbing at all."

I struggle to believe you have never relied on in situ gear or had a thank god moment on finding in situ gear just when you really needed it.
 Robert Durran 07 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

> "If people can't protect themselves - when they're climbing, or in descent - then they should perhaps think twice about going climbing at all."

Surely you're not contesting that.

> I struggle to believe you have never relied on in situ gear or had a thank god moment on finding in situ gear just when you really needed it.

Of course almost everybody has, but that is not an argument for not getting rid of it. What do you want? That nobody ever tries to remove an abandoned jammed nut or tat that people have bailed from? Some routes would soon become a right mess!
Post edited at 14:40
 Ian Parsons 07 Feb 2015
In reply to Webster:

> but im sure in situ belays etc were just as much a part of climbing 100 years ago as they are today. >

Really? In 1915? Are you still referring to climbing in the UK? I wonder what form such belays would have taken - pre-nuts, pre-pegs, pre-bolts, pre-krabs, etc.
 Andy Moles 07 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Am I conflating two issues? Isn't most tat placed in the first place because someone has decided to go down (ok, that doesn't necessarily mean it was an emergency)?

I don't really understand your argument - we should leave tat just in case someone appreciates it in future? What's the logical conclusion of that approach?
 Mark Bannan 08 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

> You say above "for me it really changes the feel of the route"....maybe consider other people?! for some it provides much needed security and confidence.

Well said! If there was not a good peg belay at the end of Central Gully Right-Hand (guidebook does mention good belays), I would have filled my trousers!

 keith leonard 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Jon
You seem like a passionate and concerned climber. Did you clean all the pitches and belays you were on or did you leave it all and come home to moan that someone else should do it?
Personally if I get a small stollen moment from life to go winter climbing I'm just going to clip the tat and move on fast as possible to get as much climbing done as possible. Sorry.
2
 JSTaylor 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Jon Bracey:

I am with Jon here, we should aim to leave no trace.
 Exile 08 Feb 2015
In reply to JSTaylor:

Well put.
In reply to JSTaylor:
> we should aim to leave no trace.

That doesn't work in isolation.If we should leave no trace,we should remove mountain paths,remove the lay bys, remove other traces too. We can't selectively say we should leave no trace for some issues but not for others.
Post edited at 15:00
 atrendall 08 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

It does work in isolation. A small start is better than nothing. I for one hate fixed abseil stations and think they are merely a reflection of today's ever increasing convenience culture. Fair enough is someone has an epic and has to bail but there does seem to be a proliferation of abseil tat etc. and I'd have no compunction whatsoever about removing any gear that is cluttering up the mountain.
1
In reply to atrendall:

> I'd have no compunction whatsoever about removing any gear that is cluttering up the mountain.

Well,that's a very selfrighteous view. For every piece of tat or in situ gear that isn't removed,there are plenty of others who don't see it as you do and who think it should be left in situ. I think it is good in life to be considerate of the opinions of others,particularly when they aren't views we share.
 atrendall 08 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Perhaps you should be considerate of my views then.
1
In reply to atrendall:

Sure. but there's a world of difference between two groups holding opposite views and one group railroading theirs onto the other,in this case by going round clearing it all.
 BnB 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Jon Bracey:

I have to confess I find the presence of tat quite comforting from a navigational perspective and not particularly offensive aesthetically. It's pretty unobtrusive (usually invisible) to the general public and only temporary. Which is more than can be said for paths and even footpath repairs (not that I'm opposed to either). Sorry if this isn't everyone's perspective.
 atrendall 08 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Yes I agree but surely the opposite holds true and people who want to be in a relatively unspoilt mountain environment (I know there are roads and paths etc) are having the super convenient I'd rather rap off than walk idea forced upon them. Agreed they don't have to use it but it is a visual eyesore and potentially a dumbing down of self reliance to the lowest common denominator.
In reply to BnB:

I think you make a good point there.Tat etc is visible from limited places,whereas paths etc and other damage are visible from everywhere!The leave no trace view is skewed if it focuses on removing small traces that are generally visible reasonably close up but not on huge traces often visible for miles.
 DaveHK 08 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

> for some it provides much needed security and confidence.

If you need the tat for that then you're out of your depth.

1
 BnB 08 Feb 2015
In reply to DaveHK:

> If you need the tat for that then you're out of your depth.

Really?

Is nobody allowed to learn new skills or cement recently acquired knowledge on your favourite routes then?
 DaveHK 08 Feb 2015
In reply to BnB:
Yes really. If you feel like you need insitu gear on a winter route then you're out of your depth on that route. Relying on insitu gear for protection or to tell you where the route goes is foolish and potentially dangerous. Go cement your knowledge elsewhere and come back when you're ready.
Post edited at 16:24
1
In reply to DaveHK:
Oh grow up!We've all begun somewhere and improve and get better by pushing our limits and pushing ourself.This does involve getting out of our depth. This elitist view that the climbs somehow only belong to people as good as you is both patronising and unnecessary.Even utterly brilliant naturally talented climbers like you learnt somewhere and had a learning curve.
Post edited at 16:30
1
 Andy Moles 08 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

I agree that the eyesore thing is a red herring. It's all about preserving an ethos of self-sufficiency - surely that is at the heart of traditional climbing in the UK?
In reply to Andy Moles:

That is a good point,certainly beats the "UK ethics view" which certainly isn't clear. Fully support self-sufficiency,with the admission that if there is a tad (tat?) of help,I'm a fool to pass it by

Safe climbing mate!
 DaveHK 08 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
> .Even utterly brilliant naturally talented climbers like you learnt somewhere and had a learning curve.

Why thank you, but improving as a climber does not mean relying on fixed gear to get you up routes.
Post edited at 16:46
 DaveHK 08 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

We must be talking at cross purposes here. I mean you're not actually suggesting that tat should be left in place because people need it to make themselves safe are you?
In reply to DaveHK:
I never said improving means relying on in situ gear. And no,I am not suggesting it should be left to make people safe,nor that anyone should rely on it.

But,in the absence if a valid reason to remove it ( eyesore and UK ethics and if you're not good enough then stay away arguments don't cut it),I don't see a reason for removing something that can and does help people.
Post edited at 16:52
 BnB 08 Feb 2015
In reply to DaveHK:

> Yes really. If you feel like you need insitu gear on a winter route then you're out of your depth on that route. Relying on insitu gear for protection or to tell you where the route goes is foolish and potentially dangerous. Go cement your knowledge elsewhere and come back when you're ready.

I said I found it reassuring and inoffensive, not that I relied on it. Just as I find it reassuring to see that excellence as a climber (which I'll never achieve) doesn't stop you behaving like a conceited arse (which I also manage quite often, so we have something in common at least).
1
 Offwidth 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Webster:

In comparison to summer routes with established pegs, most winter peg placements need to be treated with a lot of extra suspicion. With a few exceptions (mainly on common belays) its stamdard practice and safer for the second or subsequent ascentionists to take these out to reduce risk and keep the route tidy. You only really know how good a peg is if you placed it.
 TobyA 08 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Where does you view end though? I've posted in the past about how we accept silly amounts of tat that conforms to British adventure ethics but not bolts - or see http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2007/07/superior-ethics-or-litterin...

If leaving insitu tat behind is ok, why not just have two safe bolts and be done with it?

Apropos to some comments above, placed my first piton and warthog in years yesterday, on a route where finding quality belays turned out to be quite tricky. Nearly didn't take any pitons with us, but now really glad I did!
In reply to TobyA:

>
> If leaving insitu tat behind is ok, why not just have two safe bolts and be done with it?

Indeed,why not?! I can think of plenty of worse things that could happen!

1
 BnB 08 Feb 2015
In reply to TobyA:

Hi Toby. You did SE gully didn't you? We didn't struggle so much for belays but runners were virtually non existent when we were up there last weekend.
 DaveHK 08 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
There's nothing elitist in what I'm saying, just good mountaineering practice.

For the record, I'll clip tat with the best of them but I don't think the ensuing feeling of relief is an argument for keeping it.
Post edited at 17:18
In reply to DaveHK:
Mate,you can call it whatever you wish,but your expressed view seeks to exclude from climbing those who are not as good or talented or sure as you. You're free to gloss over it with whatever words you want.It comes across as arrogant and elitist and I'm not alone in thinking that.I don't know how comfortable you are with that.
Post edited at 17:28
1
 TobyA 08 Feb 2015
In reply to BnB:

Yes - I place two ice screws on the route for runners, first screws I've place this winter, and amongst only a handful I've ever placed in England. But our second belay just as the junction where you go right was a warthog and knifeblade. The chaps in front of us had just used two warthogs. And I used a bulldogs as a back up to a couple of small nuts further up. Generally we found it made sense to stop where you saw a good belay spike or similar rather than try and do 60 mtrs each time, because they were few and far between. And I agree about the runners - not too many really! Easier towards the top to find them, but by that point it was mostly walking.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
I don't read it as arrogant, or elitist at all. It's also not about being "good " or talented". There are loads of people who climb grade I and II who also abhor the thought of unnecessary fixed pro, bolts in the mountains etc.

If you want to improve at Scottish winter climbing, yes, you'll have to push your limits. And yes, it's sometime "nice" when your pumped and shaking to find an old nut or whatever, but if you're relying on this then when you suddenly find yourself on a tricky route, with no insitu, you may be struggling with the lack of necessary skills to identify, unearth and place your crucial piece of pro.

I'm sad to say it, but it's your ego that is getting in the way - I know Dave personally (not that well, but enough) and he is one of the least egotistical grade chasing climbers I know. If he, or I, or anyone can't climb Grade (insert whatever grade you fancy) without the comfort of tonnes of fixed gear, we quite simply don't do it, or fail trying. We drop back a grade and gain the skills and strength necessary to make that next grade jump.

This is not elitism, this is just plain and simple development of mountaineering / climbing skills.

If you aren't willing to learn these skills, then go sport climbing. Yes, that IS arrogant and elitist and I don't care! Scottish winter climbing is defined by our obscure "rules" and it will be a sad day when that changes.
Post edited at 17:35
 BnB 08 Feb 2015
In reply to TobyA:

I think we must haven our pitches in different phases. I went with only one runner from under the chockstone to above the ice pitch where there is a thread and hex belay. Spicy!! And to stay on topic I completed the final belay by placing two offsets under the rusty in situ peg, not wanting to rely on it
 TobyA 08 Feb 2015
In reply to BnB:
I missed that peg, because I did think for a Cold climbs Classic (IIRC? I think its mentioned in CC) there was was basically nothing left insitu. I did notice that the few nut placements that there are, were all quite worn - obviously everyone finds the same handful of places to put in some 1s, 2s and 3s. In fact I could have done with doubles on all my little nuts and needn't have brought any cams at all - but you don't know these things until afterwards. We used the same belay point above the ice pitch - there was a short bit of jammed in old sling but it looked like someone had - in the spirit of this thread - cut the rest away. How did you find the ice pitch? I thought it was rather fruity for III - glad I've spent the last decade climbing similar bits of ice on little Finnish routes!
Post edited at 18:33
 BnB 08 Feb 2015
In reply to TobyA:

As the ice was only an inch thick it was "prudent" (and scary) to squeeze along a powdery ledge to the right and then traverse gingerly back into the gully. The really fruity move for me was the pull up the final chimney with only the most delicate of axe hooks and a choice of smooth rock slab or bottomless powder for crampons. In the early freeze conditions we experienced it was right at my leading limit. Good thing there wasn't an in situ peg to tempt me or I'd have never hunted out the threadable chock
 Mike Pescod 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Jon Bracey:

Hi Jon, it was good to see you when you were here. I'm with you all the way and agree with your points. Thanks for cleaning up as you went. It is certainly not all local guides who are responsible for leaving stuff behind. I make a point of cleaning up as I go as well and I've been criticised on this forum for doing so too!

Mike
In reply to Fultonius:

I have nowhere said people should rely on it so I don't see why you launch off on that one. There aren't rules about Scottish winter climbing.There is accepted practice but there aren't rules.
1
 Wry Gob 08 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains

"I struggle to believe you have never relied on in situ gear or had a thank god moment on finding in situ gear just when you really needed it."

The only time I'd rely on in-situ gear is when I'm sport climbing.

In fact there have been numerous occasions when I've been strung out on a hard winter lead - Diedre of the Sorrows (VIII,8) and Crazy Sorrow (IX,10) on Lochnagar being examples - where a mess of in-situ gear has caused me real problems. All the good gear placements were taken, but the in-situ stuff was old and choked with ice (in-situ stuff collects water rapidly and ices up). The idea that I might 'rely' on it is just nuts! It gets in the way. It's dangerous. It should be removed wherever possible.

Anyone promoting and encouraging reliance on in-situ leader-placed protection in the Scottish mountains needs their head examined.

1
 LakesWinter 08 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

> Mate,you can call it whatever you wish,but your expressed view seeks to exclude from climbing those who are not as good or talented or sure as you. You're free to gloss over it with whatever words you want.It comes across as arrogant and elitist and I'm not alone in thinking that.I don't know how comfortable you are with that.

No, his views don't exclude people from climbing, they invite people to be good enough before attempting a given route. There are some routes I am capable of, others I am not capable of, that is not elitism, it is humility and having a realistic view of oneself, it is how it is. If you need the tat to navigate or get up a route, you shouldn't be on it.

We've all got on routes too hard for us at some point I should imagine......
1
 Jasonic 08 Feb 2015
In reply to Jon Bracey:

Glad you started this discussion but would be a mystery to anyone outside climbing, particularly as your UKC article mentions rapping off good bolts and a chain..also respect Mike Peascod who fought the instigation of navigation posts on the Ben, yet placed bolts for a commercial canyoning descent on the same mountain and promotes the nearby ski area of Aonach Mor- an entire mountain covered in outdoor sport apparatus.

However have also met numerous French guides at the CIC, who specifically bring clients here because of its "pure" reputation, that is without fixed gear and part in the history of ice climbing. I think the abseil chains on the Inn Pin are a good compromise, replacing tat.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

> Mate,you can call it whatever you wish,but your expressed view seeks to exclude from climbing those who are not as good or talented or sure as you. You're free to gloss over it with whatever words you want.It comes across as arrogant and elitist and I'm not alone in thinking that.I don't know how comfortable you are with that.

Im one of the people his views 'exclude'as im currently rubbish with no realistic prospect of getting enough mileage in the foreseeable future to ever be any better. I have no problem with that. I don't expect the mountain to be brought down to my level.

And im not excluded from climbing at all. There are several lifetime's worth of gradeI and II routes in inspiring locations that i can climb. Don't clutter the mountains up with rubbish on my behalf.

Cheers

Gregor

 BnB 09 Feb 2015
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

So how does anyone suggest I ab off without leaving a trace (ie c3m of 6mm)?
In reply to LakesWinter:

At no point did I say people (or I) need tat to navigate or get up a route!!!! I agree, if people do need it to do so, it isnt for them.
 galpinos 09 Feb 2015
In reply to BnB:
> (In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs)
>
> So how does anyone suggest I ab off without leaving a trace (ie c3m of 6mm)?

Climb to the top and walk off?

Being less flippant, I assume you mean when an ab is the only way down, i.e. a pinnacle?
 BnB 09 Feb 2015
In reply to galpinos:
It was something of a rhetorical question intended to highlight that we'll only be free of tat if abseiling ceases to be the only form of retreat (or progress) other than climbing, walking or rescue.


edit:spelling
Post edited at 13:42
 Jamie B 09 Feb 2015
In reply to BnB:

It's not just retreat when it all gets too much though, there has definitely been an increase in "convenience" abseiling. Classic examples on the Ben include Waterfall Gully, Vanishing, Italian Right-hand, Central Gullies in Coire na Ciste where abseiling off after the interesting pitches may seem greatly preferable to battling up multi-pitch snow-plods or taking on killer cornices. It can also create the time for more climbing - surely never a bad thing?
 galpinos 09 Feb 2015
In reply to BnB:

I don't really see Scotland as somewhere where abseiling off for convenience/ease should be promoted/accepted, you climb the route and walk off.

I have no issue with kit getting left in resue/retreat as that's just life/climbing. Hopefully the next team will strip it.

I'm just a punter from south of the border though so.......
 John Workman 09 Feb 2015
In reply to keith leonard:

> In reply to Jon

> You seem like a passionate and concerned climber. Did you clean all the pitches and belays you were on or did you leave it all and come home to moan that someone else should do it?

> Personally if I get a small stollen moment from life to go winter climbing I'm just going to clip the tat and move on fast as possible to get as much climbing done as possible. Sorry.

Sounds to me like your trying to have your cake and eat it [whilst winter climbing]?
 BnB 09 Feb 2015
In reply to Jamie B:

Yes, I hadn't thought about convenience abseils. I was only considering retreat (of necessity) or progress (eg TD gap on a traverse). I love a nice abseil but I pretty much avoid them wherever possible for statistically validated reasons.
 Timmd 09 Feb 2015
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
> Oh grow up!We've all begun somewhere and improve and get better by pushing our limits and pushing ourself.This does involve getting out of our depth. This elitist view that the climbs somehow only belong to people as good as you is both patronising and unnecessary.Even utterly brilliant naturally talented climbers like you learnt somewhere and had a learning curve.

I think what he means, is, that setting off up a route when relying on in situ gear, is potentially going to land people in trouble if they find that the in situ gear isn't there, or that it isn't of a standard which is safe to use, and that climbers should be able to get themselves out of trouble by using their own equimpent and cunning/desperation.

As a complete novice to winter climbing, to me this makes sense.
Post edited at 15:25
 Timmd 09 Feb 2015
In reply to TobyA:

> Where does you view end though? I've posted in the past about how we accept silly amounts of tat that conforms to British adventure ethics but not bolts - or see http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2007/07/superior-ethics-or-litterin...

> If leaving insitu tat behind is ok, why not just have two safe bolts and be done with it?

I guess there's the potential for something (more) to go wrong when using tat and pegs etc than with bolts, which means there's more adventure involved?

 andrewmc 09 Feb 2015
In reply to Timmd:
Personally I find it extremely difficult to find Portland-type U staple bolts on clean dry rock in the sun; certainly a lot harder to see than a rotting abseil station with tat and rust stains. Perhaps in typical winter conditions sufficient adventure would be achieved simply trying to find the damn things? :P
Post edited at 15:52
 Michael Gordon 09 Feb 2015
In reply to Jamie B:
I'm all for convenience abseiling on certain routes (e.g. Scabbard Chimney). If the tat was removed, yes I might be annoyed, but realistically I'd be left with 2 choices - climb to the top or replace the gear. And neither are too bad really.
Post edited at 22:05
In reply to Michael Gordon: What are the thoughts on tat that is placed around blocks that then become buried/encased in ice? Do we think that these give belays where none would be apparent, or should folk be expected to dig everywhere in the hope of finding a block under likely looking snow?

On the subject of convenience abseiling - is there an argument that this allows some climbing to be completed on a day when a full route would be pushing it too far, either through avalanche conditions, weather or illness? For example, yesterday I was feeling unwell, but not wanting to waste good weather and conditions, dragged my arse in to Sneachda to do Aladdin's Mirror Direct as I knew that there was a good abseil station.

 Michael Gordon 10 Feb 2015
In reply to cannichoutdoors:

> What are the thoughts on tat that is placed around blocks that then become buried/encased in ice? Do we think that these give belays where none would be apparent, or should folk be expected to dig everywhere in the hope of finding a block under likely looking snow?


Case by case basis, but I actually think a lot of the time these are less useful. Trouble is the tat is harder to assess, and if you can't see it all then you never really know.


> On the subject of convenience abseiling - is there an argument that this allows some climbing to be completed on a day when a full route would be pushing it too far, either through avalanche conditions, weather or illness? For example, yesterday I was feeling unwell, but not wanting to waste good weather and conditions, dragged my arse in to Sneachda to do Aladdin's Mirror Direct as I knew that there was a good abseil station.

Well of course I wouldn't advocate climbing when ill, but you make a good point. One thing I do find a bit odd is folk abbing off for no apparent reason when there is plenty good climbing on the route still to go, e.g. after the first pitch of Last Post on Meagaidh.

 pass and peak 10 Feb 2015
In reply to Jon Bracey:

For everybody's info We climb "The Message" in Sneachda yesterday and removed some of the fixed runners that we found there, pegs at the belay are still in place! Removed were 1 old nut on a wire, a tricam with seriously faded webbing and a sling on a spike. The cracks they were in are now free for you to place and remove your on protection you can relay on.
 Erik B 11 Feb 2015
In reply to all: well said Jon Bracey, shame its taken a foreign based climber to highlight the obscenity that is the modern fast food approach to extreme sports in Scotland and UK that has crept in over the last decade or so. Why cant folk just plod to the top and enjoy the mountaineering experience instead of ticking routes to the max? theres enough box ticking in the corporate world, why force that pish on to the mountains where we go to escape?

as for the in situ argument, utterly bizzare! in situ gear is not good full stop

anyway, disgusted with myself that i logged on to UKC for first time in years and also posted. cheers



 planetmarshall 11 Feb 2015
In reply to Erik B:

> Why cant folk just plod to the top and enjoy the mountaineering experience instead of ticking routes to the max? theres enough box ticking in the corporate world, why force that pish on to the mountains where we go to escape?

here's a long history of 'box ticking' in Scottish Mountaineering. We wouldn't have the huge variety of routes and venues that we have were it not for munro baggers spying out potential new lines throughout the year. And what's plodding to the top if it's not ticking a box?
 galpinos 11 Feb 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:
> And what's plodding to the top if it's not ticking a box?

Finishing the route.

 Pete_Frost 11 Feb 2015
In reply to Jon Bracey:

I'm definitely with you on chopping out old, faded tat whenever you find it: Scotland, the Alps, Gogarth, wherever! I've been known to cut out old in-situ thread belays, use my own tat, and then remove that when I move on. Personally, I find the odd, discrete abseil station very convenient, but I find tangles of tat unsightly and dangerous when they clog up decent placements.

If I can remove in-situ gear without damaging it any more then I'll do it and add it to my stock of "bailer" pieces. If it is so stuck that I'll just risk wrecking it and leaving both it and the placement unusable, then I'll leave it.

Pegs rust and render their placement unusable if left in situ, so I'd always suggest placing them on the lead and removing them afterwards. Eventually the placement will wear enough to take a small cam or specialist piece like a Slider. It will then deteriorate at the same rate as any placement which takes gear repeatedly, but at least the placement will be usable for longer than if blocked by a rusting peg.

The argument in this thread about the "wilderness experience" is a bit harder to defend - we've got: guidebooks; Ordnance Survey maps; well-made upland footpaths; Go-Pro video; blow-by-blow photos on UKC; zoomable digital topos on our smartphones; stamped approach tracks on the ground; crampon scratches on the rock; and let's not forget the bucket-steps which get kicked as soon as a route even thinks of coming into nick. Let's reduce our impact by all means (sometimes a well-made path can stop a 100m wide erosion scar from forming), but let's not fool ourselves that anywhere in the UK is a true wilderness. If you want wilderness, there are loads of unclimbed faces all over the world just waiting for us to defile them with tat, pegs, bolts and worse......
 barbeg 11 Feb 2015
In reply to Erik B:

....welcome back to the mad house mate,
Best regards,
ANdy
In reply to Erik B:

Is this part of your training regime for next season?

Stuart
 DafMorris 11 Feb 2015
In reply to Stuart the postie:

This season's not dead yet Stu, still time for Erik to pull through!!!
 Turfty 12 Feb 2015
In reply to Jon Bracey:

"I'm sure local guides are responsible for some of the abseil stations...?"

http://www.climbnow.co.uk/blog/2015/02/ben-nevis-8

 atrendall 12 Feb 2015
In reply to Turfty:

...lost count of the number of abseils. Says it all, really. Convenience climbing and people paying/being paid to litter the mountains......lights touch paper and stands well back.

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...